Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[NegaNixx]

So they work on everyone?


Anyways, time to make a real post. After playing a little, I would say he's top 15. has good throws (excluding up throw) that can set up combos. His frame data is good, but has some janky hitboxes. His Netural game is above average, and thanks to the number of jumps he has, his off-stage game is great. He's mostly held back by his lack of safe kill options.

I'm gonna have to stop you right there friend.

While I agree that he's top 15, if not top 10, the reasons you listed aren't why.

His throws all serve a purpose, F/D-Throw for comboing, B-Throw for knocking people off stage/Damage, U-Throw on the off chance you can't get a kill until late.

A majority of his hitboxes have been fixed through patches, they were blatantly wrong at release however.

His neutral game is hot doodoo butter. He has about 5 options in neutral and only two of them consistently transition into advantage state (Dash Attack, Daah Grab). It is also entirely dependant on controlling the Midrange where Out of Dash options are the most potent.

And the main reason he's regarded as high as he is currently is because of the ability to kill with ease from basically any percent. His Edgeguarding prowess is great as well.

 

[Ffamran]

The Falcon Shiek MU is definitely not just -1. If the shiek knows what they are doing (like in that set I posted about Mr. R and Fatality, Falcon just cannot get back to stage vs. Shiek. Maybe he just played the MU wrong or isn't as good as Mr. R, but how one sided one some of those games were highlighted just how horrible that MU is. Definitely at least -2 which means alot assuming both players are of relative similar skill.

Fatality record vsis pretty bad.
MLG: Mr. R [3] vs Fatality [1] H flash explained this already [Mr.R was mix between aggressive and defensive]

Sktar 3/4: False [3] vs Fatality [1] Dominated him in at least 2 of the matches [loss 1 due to dying while edge-guarding Fatality] [False played really aggressive]

SSC: ZeRo [3] vs Fatality [0] Completely dominated Fatality the entire set. [ZeRo played really defensive]

Honestly I think MU is just plain awful as it appears Sheik can play any style vs him and still dominate the match against Falcon and I won't be surprised if it ends up being a [-3] later on (if it isn't already). Other Falcon main Max Ketchum thinks Sheik destroys Falcon as well.

Note Fatality's play style as well; he's hyper-aggressive and takes a ton of risks for tons of rewards. When you shut aggression like that off and make risks even more dangerous, then he's out of options. ZeRo shut Fatality down so hard that he had to rely on Falcon Dive hitbox shenanigans to cheese his way back on-stage. Not to win, but to get back and off the ledge. It's a very volatile play style where he can end stocks in mere seconds or get curbstomped so hard you're questioning if that For Glory player way back in pools wouldn't have done better.

Also, what about other Captain Falcon players like Tearbear? I don't know enough about Tearbear or how Japanese players deal with Captain Falcon, but being able to take down Nietono's? Sheik is something to look at. Unfortunately, it was never on-stream, but that's a question of how Tearbear was able to do it, how he played the MU, how he played in general, and those questions asked again, but on Nietono's side. For all we know, Tearbear might be a cautious player and takes safer options despite the massive rewards Captain Falcon can get which might be the play style to use or wasn't a familiar Captain Falcon play style to Nietono who is a cautious Sheik player.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Note Fatality's play style as well; he's hyper-aggressive and takes a ton of risks for tons of rewards. When you shut aggression like that off and make risks even more dangerous, then he's out of options. ZeRo shut Fatality down so hard that he had to rely on Falcon Dive hitbox shenanigans to cheese his way back on-stage. Not to win, but to get back and off the ledge. It's a very volatile play style where he can end stocks in mere seconds or get curbstomped so hard you're questioning if that For Glory player way back in pools wouldn't have done better.

Also, what about other Captain Falcon players like Tearbear? I don't know enough about Tearbear or how Japanese players deal with Captain Falcon, but being able to take down Nietono's? Sheik is something to look at. Unfortunately, it was never on-stream, but that's a question of how Tearbear was able to do it, how he played the MU, how he played in general, and those questions asked again, but on Nietono's side. For all we know, Tearbear might be a cautious player and takes safer options despite the massive rewards Captain Falcon can get which might be the play style to use or wasn't a familiar Captain Falcon play style to Nietono who is a cautious Sheik player.

Tearbear also loss to Cacogen (another sheik player) following Nietono defeat. Also I think Nietono at that time was also was more focused on using and got bored with in Japan and just went at EVO cause "Customs".

Edit: What likely happened to Nietono was that he was playing the MU Wrong similar to how Mr.R loss to Fatality Game 1 and then just bopped him after that. Also another thing to note is that M2K and MvD both went Captain Falcon against Vinnie a P@X a and got bopped on as well (although this is not anything to judge on, but just softly backs up my point.

 

[Nobie]

Has anyone ever tried a Meta Knight/Ryu Doubles team? I'm curious if their group interaction throws (Meta Knight's up throw is a MID-PERCENT KILL THROW against anyone it crashes into, and Ryu's down throw breaks shields) have any synergy.

 

[Jamurai]

So they work on everyone?


Anyways, time to make a real post. After playing a little, I would say he's top 15. has good throws (excluding up throw) that can set up combos. His frame data is good, but has some janky hitboxes. His Netural game is above average, and thanks to the number of jumps he has, his off-stage game is great. He's mostly held back by his lack of safe kill options.

I'm gonna have to stop you right there friend.

While I agree that he's top 15, if not top 10, the reasons you listed aren't why.

His throws all serve a purpose, F/D-Throw for comboing, B-Throw for knocking people off stage/Damage, U-Throw on the off chance you can't get a kill until late.

A majority of his hitboxes have been fixed through patches, they were blatantly wrong at release however.

His neutral game is hot doodoo butter. He has about 5 options in neutral and only two of them consistently transition into advantage state (Dash Attack, Daah Grab). It is also entirely dependant on controlling the Midrange where Out of Dash options are the most potent.

And the main reason he's regarded as high as he is currently is because of the ability to kill with ease from basically any percent. His Edgeguarding prowess is great as well.

Let's clear up some misconceptions here.

His hitboxes aren't janky, the only possibly janky stuff is Usmash whiffing on grounded opponents on one side and Dtilt poking into the opponent's feet without hitting them sometimes.

His neutral game is above average overall, but not great for a top tier. Utilt is actually the most reliable setup move for Uair combos so it's not all about dash attack and dash grab... I made a post about his tilts earlier. Sure he doesn't have much of a SH game but he doesn't actually need one in most cases, his ground game is so damn good; burst mobility, fast spacing moves (tilts), safe pokes and baits, good perfect pivots & other ground ATs... blah blah.

Also if I hear someone say that MK has trouble killing one more time, I may jump off a bridge. I thought this belief was quashed in like January. Killing is MK's thing.

EDIT: btw I think MK is top 10, if that means anything.

 

[meleebrawler]

Has anyone ever tried a Meta Knight/Ryu Doubles team? I'm curious if their group interaction throws (Meta Knight's up throw is a MID-PERCENT KILL THROW against anyone it crashes into, and Ryu's down throw breaks shields) have any synergy.

Why break shields with Ryu's dthrow when his uthrow is a hilarious kill move in doubles?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

So they work on everyone?


Anyways, time to make a real post. After playing a little, I would say he's top 15. has good throws (excluding up throw) that can set up combos. His frame data is good, but has some janky hitboxes. His Netural game is above average, and thanks to the number of jumps he has, his off-stage game is great. He's mostly held back by his lack of safe kill options.

So MK is Top 15 but lacks safe kill options?
...
Hate to tell you this but you're only right about one of those things.

 

[teddystalin]

Also, what about other Captain Falcon players like Tearbear? I don't know enough about Tearbear or how Japanese players deal with Captain Falcon, but being able to take down Nietono's? Sheik is something to look at. Unfortunately, it was never on-stream, but that's a question of how Tearbear was able to do it, how he played the MU, how he played in general, and those questions asked again, but on Nietono's side. For all we know, Tearbear might be a cautious player and takes safer options despite the massive rewards Captain Falcon can get which might be the play style to use or wasn't a familiar Captain Falcon play style to Nietono who is a cautious Sheik player.

Nietono used Mii brawler against Tearbear, fwiw

 

[Mario766]

The only MU that Ike would ever need a secondary for is Sheik. Even then, the MU is completely doable, it just requires a lot of work and really good play.

 

[Kaladin]

The only MU that Ike would ever need a secondary for is Sheik. Even then, the MU is completely doable, it just requires a lot of work and really good play.

Time to derail the thread into more Ike talk!

So, how does Ike deal with being camped out really hard? I know he has decent mobility in general, and good burst movement with AC quick draw. However, it seems like if Villager, or Sonic, or Pacman, or Rosa, etc decided to time him out, particularly on a stage like Duck Hunt, he couldn't stop them.

Of course, Ike is secretly S tier, so he would be able to stop them, right? How does he do that?

 

[Mario766]

Time to derail the thread into more Ike talk!

So, how does Ike deal with being camped out really hard? I know he has decent mobility in general, and good burst movement with AC quick draw. However, it seems like if Villager, or Sonic, or Pacman, or Rosa, etc decided to time him out, particularly on a stage like Duck Hunt, he couldn't stop them.

Of course, Ike is secretly S tier, so he would be able to stop them, right? How does he do that?

Problem. None of those characters CAN time out effectively, or at least it's very unoptimal to play that style. The key to playing against Sonic is getting into the range where Spin Dash is unsafe and can be easily reacted to. This is shown very clearly in Ryo's sets. He has the Sonic MU down pat and wins almost all, if not all the Ike vs Sonic MUs he plays, even beating 6wx in an amazing set against a very different Sonic.

Villager is a hassle, but Ike has an amazing shield dash to use against slingshot. Ike also has very good anti-ledge option moves, like Sheik. If Villager wants to play the slow game, please do. Ike WANTS matches to be slow. These characters can't effectively punish Ike for throwing out hitboxes if they are trying to stall the match, so he can space freely. The only character in that list that could possibly time out Ike is Villager but I don't see it.

If you're going to rage every time I post something about Ike, you should at least notice that people were talking about solo viability and Ike was talked about just in the last page. Keep it up.

 

[Kaladin]

Problem. None of those characters CAN time out effectively, or at least it's very unoptimal to play that style. The key to playing against Sonic is getting into the range where Spin Dash is unsafe and can be easily reacted to. This is shown very clearly in Ryo's sets. He has the Sonic MU down pat and wins almost all, if not all the Ike vs Sonic MUs he plays, even beating 6wx in an amazing set against a very different Sonic.

Villager is a hassle, but Ike has an amazing shield dash to use against slingshot. Ike also has very good anti-ledge option moves, like Sheik. If Villager wants to play the slow game, please do. Ike WANTS matches to be slow. These characters can't effectively punish Ike for throwing out hitboxes if they are trying to stall the match, so he can space freely. The only character in that list that could possibly time out Ike is Villager but I don't see it.

If you're going to rage every time I post something about Ike, you should at least notice that people were talking about solo viability and Ike was talked about just in the last page. Keep it up.

Eh? I'm not raging. I'm interested in the idea that Ike is solo viable, because I don't see it. That's why I asked.

Anyways

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What is the general consensus on Greninja? He doesn't seem top 15 material to me, but maybe top 20? That said, I know very little about the frog -- could someone enlighten me?

 

[Mario766]

What MUs would you say that Ike can't be solo played in then?

As I said, I believe the only MU that would cause problems is Sheik, as other MUs are shown in tournament to be very doable, to the point of possibly even.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

What MUs would you say that Ike can't be solo played in then?

As I said, I believe the only MU that would cause problems is Sheik, as other MUs are shown in tournament to be very doable, to the point of possibly even.

I could see ZSS being a bit of a problem for Ike, her weakness in only being able to get a reliable anything off of SHFFs (meaning you can tell what shes up to), doesnt matter as much againt ike because his moves aren't too fast, and he also has no real options to escape her combos.

 

[Kaladin]

What MUs would you say that Ike can't be solo played in then?

As I said, I believe the only MU that would cause problems is Sheik, as other MUs are shown in tournament to be very doable, to the point of possibly even.

As I said, I could see anyone with a good anti approach or keep away game being problematic for Ike. I'm not an Ike main, nor do I main any of those characters -- that's why I'm asking. So, how does Ike deal with Pacman's trampoline+hydrant? How does he deal with a Villager that thinks it's brawl? (Is his dash+shield alone really enough to win neutral/get him in?) And so on. Ike is obviously good, but he doesn't have a projectile, and he's relatively slow. Contemporary smash wisdom says he gets timed out.

 

[Mario766]

I could see ZSS being a bit of a problem for Ike, her weakness in only being able to get a reliable anything off of SHFFs (meaning you can tell what shes up to), doesnt matter as much againt ike because his moves aren't too fast, and he also has no real options to escape her combos.

Ike has relatively strong OoS options, this makes a N-Air that isn't properly spaced OR timed *I'm talking when they hit your shield up high* leaving to a good OoS Jab or Down Tilt. Ike also gets very solid kill confirms out of throws or down tilt because of ZSS' high fall speed and tall hurtbox. It definitely does matter in the MU, as it's two characters who destroy each other in punishes. The main thing ZSS has is her mobility and how safe N-Air is.

With 6 minutes, being timed out isn't usually an issue.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I mean, with that logic, DK would beat ZSS. But at the end of the day, she still destroys him no matter how much reward he has on grab. She's ending your stocks early and keeping you out by spacing Zairs and Nairs. And flip jumping out of disadvantage.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Both Pacman and Villager are neutral MUs.

Dash Attack quite easily takes care of the hydrant without triggering the trampoline. Villager isn't dealing nearly enough damage fast enough to be KOing Ike before he's KOing him.

His Dash + Shield really is good enough to take care of projectiles. MegaMan is another neutral MU, same with Toon Link. The only projectile that causes Ike grief is needles. Projectiles will tack on damage yes, but the moment Ike gets in he's tacking on even more damage than those projectiles did. And is killing sooner. And has more range.

The fact that with two hits Ike is dealing as much damage as other characters landing 5-6 hits is what keeps most MUs close to even. As said before, Sheik is his worst MU but its winnable. Very annoying, very aggravating, arguably only winnable because she has the right properties to be one of the characters that gets hit the hardest by his throw combos, but still ultimately winnable. And because its winnable, he's solo viable.

And besides, he showed up in top 8 of MLG. I'd say any character that can show up in top 8 of a national/international solo is solo viable. And that point its more player vs player than character vs character.

 

[Mario766]

Ike doesn't bodied as hard by Boost Kick. It's actually decently escapable. A bad Boost Kick is also a free stock, just like against Ryu. Our huge disjoint also lets us easily deal with flip jump during the non-invincible parts of the move. You're trying to compare a character who gets absolutely dominated by ZSS, due to having a super large hurtbox to another heavy because they are heavies. Not to mention DK's only real OoS option is JC Up-B, which is great and all but if the ZSS starts playing around it you don't have very much to contest after that. Ike ends ZSS' stock at, if not earlier than ZSS ends his stock unless he gets put in a really bad place or does a very bad on-shield option leading to an OoS Up-B at the sides.

 

[bc1910]

Eh? I'm not raging. I'm interested in the idea that Ike is solo viable, because I don't see it. That's why I asked.

Anyways

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What is the general consensus on Greninja? He doesn't seem top 15 material to me, but maybe top 20? That said, I know very little about the frog -- could someone enlighten me?

Greninja's in that high tier group of characters below the worst top tiers/best high tiers like Ness, Wario and Villager.

If you want to put a number on it, the characters in that group rank around 14th-21st, but the exact order of the characters is very debateable. Greninja's about as good as Ike, Yoshi, Pit and maybe Falcon.

 

[Ffamran]

Nietono used Mii brawler against Tearbear, fwiw

Didn't he use both? He started with one before switching.

 

[Jehtt]

Ike doesn't bodied as hard by Boost Kick. It's actually decently escapable. A bad Boost Kick is also a free stock, just like against Ryu. Our huge disjoint also lets us easily deal with flip jump during the non-invincible parts of the move. You're trying to compare a character who gets absolutely dominated by ZSS, due to having a super large hurtbox to another heavy because they are heavies. Not to mention DK's only real OoS option is JC Up-B, which is great and all but if the ZSS starts playing around it you don't have very much to contest after that. Ike ends ZSS' stock at, if not earlier than ZSS ends his stock unless he gets put in a really bad place or does a very bad on-shield option leading to an OoS Up-B at the sides.

You mentioned that Ike's d-tilt is a good OOS option but claim that DK's only option is JC Up B, despite the fact that both DK and Ike's dtilts come out on frame 7 (and DK has intangibility on his arm when using it).

Is frame 7 really quick enough to punish... anything ZSS does on your shield? It seems like if she nairs/bairs you you're better off just rolling away or something.

 

[Trunks159]

So they work on everyone?


Anyways, time to make a real post. After playing a little, I would say he's top 15. has good throws (excluding up throw) that can set up combos. His frame data is good, but has some janky hitboxes. His Netural game is above average, and thanks to the number of jumps he has, his off-stage game is great. He's mostly held back by his lack of safe kill options.

Lack of safe kill options?! FSmash is a move you know...

 

[Ffamran]

Lack of safe kill options?! FSmash is a move you know...

Which is incredibly slow, but safe due to low recovery. What about his Nair and Bair? Also, with whatever setup he has including his infamous Uair to Shuttle Loop, being able to setup kills even if they're not "safe" is still pretty good compared to just having safe kill options. ZSS failing a Boost Kick from a Uair confirm is unsafe, but landing it outweighs everything when she and Meta Knight can kill you at any percent.

 

[Mario766]

You mentioned that Ike's d-tilt is a good OOS option but claim that DK's only option is JC Up B, despite the fact that both DK and Ike's dtilts come out on frame 7 (and DK has intangibility on his arm when using it).

Is frame 7 really quick enough to punish... anything ZSS does on your shield? It seems like if she nairs/bairs you you're better off just rolling away or something.

Depends on the height of the move and how well it was spaced. Trela easily gets a down tilt punish on Nairo on his latest set with him, because the move was used very high on his shield. For Ike, this would be a jab punish *Only 2 frames difference, doesn't change much.*. Would it kill from there?

ehhh

Depends on a read, and how well the other person reacts to it.

It'd be very hard to punish any kind of N-Air that isn't super badly spaced with down tilt, that's true. I'd probably stick to jab.

 

[Locke 06]

Dash>Shield for Ike isn't "godly." It's good, 10 frames, not great like Sheik/Samus/G&W/Gunner's at 8 frames. If 10 frames was enough to "win neutral" and get through projectiles, then projectiles would lose to dash>shield against the 21 other characters with a frame 10 dash>shield along with the previously mentioned 4 frame 8 dash>shields.

Ike has mediocre OoS options. Functionally f14 BAir OoS, Shield drop dtilt at f14, shield drop jab f11, standing grab at f7. These are not great. None of these, outside of BAir which hits high, hit behind Ike without a turnaround. Turnarounds after shield drop require 1 frame and means the attack cannot be buffered, so depending on technical precision you're looking at 1-3 frames extra with room for a mistake (which is why shield drop turnaround utilt can be hard for your average mega man).

These are weaknesses. I don't know why you dress them up and call them strengths.

A bad Boost Kick is also a free stock, just like against Ryu.

No. You don't have a f6 move that kills at 80 that can be used out of a run or an f2 move that can link into the aforementioned move. You're not Ryu.

 

[WhiteMageBD]

Sooo... This happened...

What is happening with this patch? Or was it the Luma type of glitch? Bowser charging a Smash attack and Luma killing him easily.

Its not a glitch, this mechanic was in brawl to. when your charging a smash and get hit while charging you suffer more knockback than normal. Make perfect sense why M2 died. you had 80% rage, you hit him while he was charging and M2 is the 4th lightest character in the game. so this was actually normal even though it looks absurd

 

[Mario766]

No. You don't have a f6 move that kills at 80 that can be used out of a run or an f2 move that can link into the aforementioned move. You're not Ryu.

We have a frame 11, lingering up tilt that kills at 90 which also hits much further horizontally, meaning we don't have to move to hit ZSS. In Trela's set with Nairo, he missed 2 Shoryu's because he didn't do a dash -> Shoryu, he buffered the Shoryu. Ike just drop shield up tilts, or f-tilts, or down tilts -> F-Airs, which will kill about 90. It isn't as easy, but Ike still punishes ZSS hard for a missed Boost Kick. If Ike drops out of Boost Kick up high also, Ike gets a free B-Air which is nasty for ZSS that high up.

 

[TheJolteon]

Its not a glitch, this mechanic was in brawl to. when your charging a smash and get hit while charging you suffer more knockback than normal. Make perfect sense why M2 died. you had 80% rage, you hit him while he was charging and M2 is the 4th lightest character in the game. so this was actually normal even though it looks absurd

He was at ZERO I am pretty sure it was a glitch because even though he suffered 25 percent more knockback a move like aether would not kill at zero especially off the top

 

[Drarky]

Now, not trying to be mean or cause a fight of some sorts, but sometimes it feels like you believe that Ike is some kind of top tier god that doesn't lose any MU. You always talk about all those "great options" the character have, which some of them are true, but you act like they cover every single option your opponent can't do, which in reality is not true.

I don't know a whole lot about Ike (Most of what I've seen it's been from Ryo and my partner that mains him), but I'm pretty sure that the character has weaknesses, and that ZSS is one of the better ones at exploiting them.

 

[Locke 06]

We have a frame 11, lingering up tilt that kills at 90 which also hits much further horizontally, meaning we don't have to move to hit ZSS. In Trela's set with Nairo, he missed 2 Shoryu's because he didn't do a dash -> Shoryu, he buffered the Shoryu. Ike just drop shield up tilts, or f-tilts, or down tilts -> F-Airs, which will kill about 90. It isn't as easy, but Ike still punishes ZSS hard for a missed Boost Kick. If Ike drops out of Boost Kick up high also, Ike gets a free B-Air which is nasty for ZSS that high up.

Who cares if it's lingering? It could be transcendent with invincibility (oh, hi Ryu) and that doesn't matter. You're punishing here. You're not trying to catch a spotdodge or beat a button. You can't up tilt out of a run. I wish you could, but you can't.

Because Trela misses shoryus, doesn't mean shoryus don't exist. Congrats, your character takes less technical skill to execute a punish when compared to Ryu? Dtilt>FAir won't kill at 90 unless you're at the edge of the stage or have massive rage. In which case, Ryu is killing at 60. If you want to make the argument about "range and not having to move," Ryu has Joudan Sokutougeri (fsmash).

If you fall out of ZSS' boost kick, you are usually above her unless she really misspaced it. She is both going to before you fall and fall faster than you fall. She is likely going to fast fall before you fast fall. Part of what makes boost kick somewhat safe up high is that she inherently falls faster than most of the characters in the game. I find it hard to believe you're going to connect a BAir after falling out of boost kick against a good ZSS.

You're not Ryu. And that's okay.

 

[Trifroze]

Ike doesn't really die to boost kick any more than your average character, in fact he seems to get out of it quite easily in the air, but he does die to flip kick offstage. Many characters get guaranteed counter hits on ZSS after falling out of boost kick because she floats in the air for a good deal of time during the final hit of it (that missed the opponent), and on top of that ZSS has to wait a fairly long time before she can start fastfalling even after that. Boost kick is a dumb move, not just for the opponent but for ZSS as well. Flip kick on the other hand completely ****s on Ike's recovery, mostly up b, but side b isn't invulnerable to it either.

Ike doesn't get guaranteed kills on ZSS off of grabs, she can DI and flip jump out at the percents where the follow ups would kill you. Punishing a ZSS nair (or bair or uair or zair) on shield that is both badly timed and badly spaced isn't really a thing that should be considered when talking about the matchup either. I don't think Ike dies to ZSS completely but it's a losing matchup.

Also regarding boost kick, whiffing the final hit is a lot safer on floaties because they tend to bounce upwards from the little hits and they also have a much harder time falling down afterwards, in fact in rage floaties and light characters straight up die to the knockback of the weak hits. Fastfallers usually just sort of drop out of it sometimes.

 

[L9999]

What makes Uair and Bair busted?

That they are decently quick and really strong. And considering this is Ness we are talking about, Uair and Bair have good range, specially Uair.

 

[Zelder]

This is a minor nitpick (perhaps the most minor of nitpicks), but whenever I see someone type "we" instead of "character", my first thought is, "Damn, waaaaay too much of their identity is wrapped up in this character being good."

 

[NachoOfCheese]

This is a minor nitpick (perhaps the most minor of nitpicks), but whenever I see someone type "we" instead of "character", my first thought is, "Damn, waaaaay too much of their identity is wrapped up in this character being good."

Agreed. It usually screams out character bias too.

 

[Smog Frog]

i always though the use of "we" implied all the characters mains collectively.

 

[Zelder]

Personally, I think Ike is really good. It's hard to solo your way to top 8 with a bad character. I just disagree with this analysis that he can do everything, or that he goes even in most of his matchups sans Shiek, which...can't possibly be true.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Personally, I think Ike is really good. It's hard to solo your way to top 8 with a bad character. I just disagree with this analysis that he can do everything, or that he goes even in most of his matchups sans Shiek, which...can't possibly be true.

MUs he loses in the high/top tier range

Sheik: 4-6
ZSS: 4-6/45-55
Diddy: 4-6/45-55
Fox: 4-6/45-55
MK: 4-6/45-55

After that you got one or two like Greninja where the range would be 45-55/50-50. Then you have a whole slew of 50-50 range ones, and then Rosalina and Pika in the 50-50/55-45 range, and then Sonic as a solid 55-45 advantage, might push it to be 55-45/60-40. Might put down Yoshi as 60-40 but we haven't talked about the MU in a long time, just some of us have heard recently that some Yoshis consider Ike to be one of their more difficult MUs.

There are also a few MUs where we have to play pretty differently to keep it around neutral which can throw a player off if they haven't done that MU before (like Olimar. We have to Jab like its Brawl again in that MU and basically don't touch Nair so its kinda weird to play at first).

Mario766 may be going about it the wrong way, but the main point that most Ikes believe is that nothing is unwinnable and we don't have a major advantage in any MU that matters. Kinda sorta Brawl!Marthish I guess?

There is some frustration for some of us Ike mains though because you can still see people who think Ike is too slow and that he's mid tier, or that their character soundly beats Ike. The Brawl stigma is still lingering a bit and its very irritating to work through. Part of the reason why the Ike boards don't proactively go out and set up MU discussions with other boards.

We also still have the problem where not many MUs are consistently showing up as a loss for the top level Ikes. Some of them struggle with Mario, others find him to be pretty easy for example. Makes nailing down MUs really difficult so they tend to average out to be around neutralish when you consider all top level Ikes.

I will also say though that some of you guys in this topic are really starting to jump down people's throats the moment Ike is mentioned. If you want the talk about him to die down a bit, don't jump.

 

[TheJolteon]

MUs he loses in the high/top tier range

Sheik: 4-6
ZSS: 4-6/45-55
Diddy: 4-6/45-55
Fox: 4-6/45-55
MK: 4-6/45-55

After that you got one or two like Greninja where the range would be 45-55/50-50. Then you have a whole slew of 50-50 range ones, and then Rosalina and Pika in the 50-50/55-45 range, and then Sonic as a solid 55-45 advantage, might push it to be 55-45/60-40. Might put down Yoshi as 60-40 but we haven't talked about the MU in a long time, just some of us have heard recently that some Yoshis consider Ike to be one of their more difficult MUs.

There are also a few MUs where we have to play pretty differently to keep it around neutral which can throw a player off if they haven't done that MU before (like Olimar. We have to Jab like its Brawl again in that MU and basically don't touch Nair so its kinda weird to play at first).

Mario766 may be going about it the wrong way, but the main point that most Ikes believe is that nothing is unwinnable and we don't have a major advantage in any MU that matters. Kinda sorta Brawl!Marthish I guess?

There is some frustration for some of us Ike mains though because you can still see people who think Ike is too slow and that he's mid tier, or that their character soundly beats Ike. The Brawl stigma is still lingering a bit and its very irritating to work through. Part of the reason why the Ike boards don't proactively go out and set up MU discussions with other boards.

We also still have the problem where not many MUs are consistently showing up as a loss for the top level Ikes. Some of them struggle with Mario, others find him to be pretty easy for example. Makes nailing down MUs really difficult so they tend to average out to be around neutralish when you consider all top level Ikes.

I will also say though that some of you guys in this topic are really starting to jump down people's throats the moment Ike is mentioned. If you want the talk about him to die down a bit, don't jump.

What about the DK and Ike MU? There is a video where mew2king got Ryo's Ike to 72% off a dash attack then a grab. After that All DK has to do is do the ding-dong then its over. Just from what I noticed of course.

 

[bc1910]

Can we talk about Luigi?

I feel like the latest patch has all but removed him from the game. 1.0.4 Greninja style.

Is Luigi still a big threat? Is he still at least as good as the Ike/Pit/Greninja crew, or are we looking at the level below that with the likes of Lucario and Olimar? What are you guys thinking?

I personally think we're looking at the 20-25 range for him now. He really misses that grab. Yes, he still has safe spammable Smashes a la Mario, but unlike his brother, he lacks the mobility to use them effectively. This leads to serious killing issues and compounded problems against zoners.