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Nah man. Brawl Ike's EVERYTHING is the best because of DEM SFX's /offtopic
Yeah, even among characters who have good sets of aerials it is pretty much a trend for all of them to have one aerial that's considerably less useful or completely useless in a few cases. Then there's usually one that is technically good but doesn't find use because they have another one that does the job better in most situations.
definitely applies. His nair is a really good pressure/combo (into kills and other stuff)/pressure breaking tool, dair can combo and be used to pressure, bair is a really good kill option and combo finisher, up air kills and juggles. are also applicable.
They are not experienced enough in the match up, yes.
Good for Mr. R? I am glad he got to play against someone who whiffs Shuttle Loops four times in a row and uses Dimensional Cape on an opponent with 0% while he is in kill range. I am not trying to trash Tyrant here, I am just being objective. Leo is substantially better than he is, so is Abadango, and even Mr. R.
Because even if said Sheiks are not at the level ZeRo or Mr. R happen to be, they are playing at a high level relative for their character. It is significantly easier to get quality Sheik practice, even if it is not premium quality, than Meta Knight practice because in most regions Meta Knight is not a present tournament threat. The gap between intermediate and high level play, both in quality and quantity for either character, is just not the same.
Sure it does. You provided an example that only suited my argument.
Ulevo
please argue like a rational person, you are not even considering what he has to say without backing up your argument and it's really cringeworthy
Still, a pretty damn good move Wolf has among other good moves he had that weren't over-tuned or even under-tuned. Like, was dash attack his only "bad" move? It's still deee-... I just realized they could have given Falco a frame 8 dash attack that was just his Melee/Brawl dash attack... Same freaking hit frames too! Only difference? Damage: Brawl Up Smash's 10% clean vs. Smash 4's dash attack clean 9% and 9% late vs. 6% late, and having Brawl Up Smash having 5 more total frames... It'd be sweet, though! and it'd be less lazy than, "Hey, let's make dash attack twice as slow as Fox's and his old dash attack that unlike Fox's, because he's slow as hell, wasn't abusive at all." Also, it'd a dumb mixup for Falco to run up and make you guess which flip kick he's going to do... I'm going to go to my sad corner and contemplate all the "what if Falco..." ideas I know...
Yeeeep. Forgot to mention that. Hell, both Sammi - heh, sounds like a sandwich - can ledge trump the same because of how similar their Bair hits. Only noticeable difference outside of damage, having a late hit, and being on a character who isn't a fast faller is that her... er... Samus's... frick... PSS's Bair has more landing lag than ZSS's. Y'know, looking at it more, it's more like a souped up Fox Bair with much more range, more damage, a late hit, and slightly better knockback for 3 more frames of landing lag, much worse auto-cancel windows, and I want to say a slightly worse hit angle. Fox can gimp people because of how low hit Bair can launch you, but at the same time, 361 degree angle hits launch pretty horizontally, so that's fine.
|9-10|2|23|38|14% or 12%|42 or 30|98|361|18|> 9 or < 42|9-11|3|36|48|13%|20|88|30|15|> 9 or < 15|8-9|2|28|39|12% or 10%|42|98|361|11|> 4 or < 31
Not trying to disprove you or anything, but can you maybe explain as to why you think Diddy's bair is the best? I don't know much about Diddy at all (much less any aerial besides pre patch Uair), but I haven't heard his name come up once during the debate as to who has the best Bair. Just a bit of clarification would be nice.
Diddy huh? Interesting...
Well... Marth's DA is utter trash lol.
Diddy's dash attack is trash. Hits dont link properly and has quite a bit of endlag. Probably his only bad move.
I've heard people saying Mario had a bad dash attack before.
Diddy dash attack CAN link into aerials fairly well though. Upsmash doesnt always work either with all its hits, but its worth trying to hit with and dash attack isnt bad, its outclassed by his other options.
Can't speak for Robin, but Links DA reminds me of DDD's in that if they read the roll/side step, then it's gg your stock. I'd like to hear what actual link mains have to say for it, though. (preferably one that isn't radical or named Larry)
Link's DA doesn't work like a standard DA but more as a kill move. It's like DDD's except slightly faster with a huge arc animation that hits above the platforms on BF but less active frames. IMO for killing DAs Ike>Link>DDD.
Locke 06Not at low percents, but at mid high percents you can create the space for it with DI, depending on who you're versing. It's a pretty big deal because it significantly his ability to land and recover.
No your right on the money with Link's B-air. You're able to DJ out of it even if hit on shield. Its a quick attack that can be used to shield poke. I use it all the time. In some cases it can combo into itself into up-b as well which are always very satisfying. You can even throw it out offstage to stage spike a low recovery. I think it's a very important piece of Link's kit.Pikachu and Toon Link have 40 frames of landing lag on their Dairs as well, but unlike Bowser's Bair and like Bowser's Dair, they have a safety net through a landing hit for Pikachu and Bowser's Dairs and a windbox for Toon Link's Dair. The next slowest would be Sonic's Dair at 38, but I don't remember if stall and fall aerials like that differ depending on how close you use it... Someone said and I don't think there was any credibility, that if Sonic used his Dair close to the ground vs. higher in the air, he'd suffer different landing lag. I don't know if any of this is true.
The issue with that kind of landing lag and ignoring auto-cancel windows since people do make mistakes and people just don't know e.g. the mass of other players who just play Smash for ***** and giggles, is that it's very, very stupid when it's on multiple aerials. Bowser has 2 aerials with 40 frames of landing lag and the lowest landing lag? Nair at 20 which used to be at 24 - the same as Fair. From lowest to highest, it's currently Nair at 20, Fair at 24, Uair at 28, and Bair and Dair at 40. That's an average of 30.4 frames of landing lag. Previously, it was an average of 31.2. Why? Oh, right, the freaking outliers of Bair and Dair that clock at almost twice the amount of Nair and Fair and a third slower than Uair. Let's also add in his 6 frame hard landing and figure that Bowser is still screwed if he auto-cancels his aerials. No character in the game has 2 aerials with massive - relative to... everyone - landing lag and no character in the game has a frame 8 jump, but him.
Correction! I'm going to sound like an *** because that's the intent, but everyone, please use the convenient service of the internet and her search engines and please learn to read basic data.
One, ZSS's Bair is frames 8-9 which is 2 active frames while Ganondorf's is frame 10-12, 3 active frames. Two, active frames don't mean **** on moves with late hits, especially if they're significantly weaker or don't last as long as other moves with lingering late hits like Mario, Yoshi, Luigi, Link, and Fox. Late hits are generally going to be weaker for almost... everyone, but Dr. Mario and even then, it's still pretty weak. Do they have utility? Sure, but they're not that good outside of like, Fox's Nair which like with almost everything he has, sets up Up Smashes... Continuing, DK's Bair is frames 7-8 clean and 9-16 late; a total of 10 active frames, but only 2 for the clean hit and 8 for the late hit. Falco's is frame 4-5 clean and 6-11 late; a total of 8 active frames, 2 clean and 6 late. Third one's on kill power... it's a bungle of craziness when you factor in damage, base knockback, knockback growth, position, etc. Major example is Falco's Bair; like Falco's other moves start out really weak and do hilarious amounts of damage at low percents, but end up doing a lot of knockback and damage at higher percents. Bair being the most notable as its laughable knockback at low percents is coupled with ludicrous damage which then ends up killing people at ~80% at the ledge or ~100% center-stage. Now, let's add some more numbers.
Character|Startup|Active|Recovery|Total Frames|Damage|Base|Growth|Hit Angle|Landing|Auto-cancel
(Late)|9-16|8|---|---|8%|100|10|---|---|---
(Late)|9-13|5|---|---|7.84%|7|90|---|---|---
(Late)|6-11|6|---|---|7%|30|100|---|---|---
Fun numbers, huh? Let's give a rundown, of the characters who have the highest air speeds and ignoring Wolf since he's not in the game, it's ZSS, DK, Ike, Dr. Mario, Falco, and Ganondorf in that order. In terms of spam-ability through low total frames, it's DK, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Falco, ZSS, and Ike, but in terms of low recovery, it's DK, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Falco, ZSS, and Ike. In terms of raw damage, it's Ganondorf, Ike, Dr. Mario, DK, Falco, and ZSS. In terms of knockback... eh, this gets muddy. Overall knockback would be like... all a guess, DK or Ganondorf, Ike, ZSS?, Dr. Mario, and then Falco. Split between base and growth, it's DK, ZSS, Ganondorf, Ike, Dr. Mario, and Falco for base and Falco, Ike, ZSS, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, and DK for growth. I could go on, but what does this all really mean? Nothing really in practice. In theory? You could do a ton of stuff like I just did: who wins in raw damage, low landing lag, etc.
In practice? It's, in my opinion, (Wolf,) DK, Dr. Mario, and ZSS on one side and Ike, Ganondorf, and Falco on the other. Utility-wise, DK and Dr. Mario win hands down out of these 6 (excluding Wolf) followed by ZSS. That's what really matters: flexibility and utility. The ability to use them in combos, approaches, punishes, kills, and even setups is what makes DK, Dr. Mario, and ZSS's so damn good. Can the other 3 do the same thing? Yes, but Ike's having that much recovery means unless you know you're going to hit in the air, you're rarely going to use it that high up, Ganondorf's low mobility prevents him from abusing his already good Bair even more, and Falco's Bair is deliberately crippled by short range - it's the shortest out of the 6 and I think even shorter than Fox's despite Fox being shorter since with Down Smash and Bair, Fox's legs grow and stretch like Mario's jab - and very low base knockback to prevent it from being broken, so while it can be used to punish, combo, setup, can chain into itself at low percents, and wins in a power/speed ratio by a landslide, it has to be held back or else we'll end up with a Bair that makes Wolf, DK, Dr. Mario, Captain Falcon, or whoever else's Bair look like absolute ****.
Falco's late hit is almost negligible and is pretty much a leftover of his Melee and Brawl Bair (and Fox's Melee Bair) that was frames 4-7 clean and 8-19; a total of 16 active frames, 4 clean and 12 late. Here's the thing, the clean hit only does 10% and the late hit does 7% vs. Smash 4's 13% and 7%. According to SSBwiki since I don't know a source that says this, the growth was upped by 27 to 130 from Brawl's 103. It lost its defensive capabilities for much higher offense and in a way, what Zelda's Bair and Fair should have been if we wanted Zelda to be a monster. The only thing it kept outside of startup frame, is its total frames of 37, landing of 15, and auto-cancel window before frame 4 with the after being reduced from after 23 to after 15.
Ignoring Aura, Lucario's Bair is 11 frames slower than Ike's, does 1% more than Ike, has 4 more landing frames, and auto-cancels 5 frames later than Ike's. The reason why I nominated it is that it's just slow and while Lucario's Aura magnifies his moves immensely, it's still kind of crappy how it was tuned like that. I'd be okay if it was frame 11 instead of 16. I mean, why not? People already hate him (and everyone in the game), so why not spread the hate?
Link's Bair is probably his safest aerial to just throw out and mess with people outside of er... Nair and Zair? Its value is just pure speed, safety, and utility on a slow-moving and average to slow-hitting character. Basically, options which unlike Zelda, Link and pretty much everyone has when they use their aerials. I see it as a hitbox for the sake of a hitbox and in a way, kind of like how Dr. Mario and Wolf use their Bairs. A fast, safe, "hitbox out" option kind of like ROB and Charizard using their Nairs or Mario using Dair. Those moves don't kill, but they are good coverage options.
Edit: I forgot to tag a Link player like @Fox Is Openly Deceptive or...Rizen ? ... Damn. Oh well.
Only because I like you am I responding.What about Mega Man's Bair? That seems good but I don't know much about it.
What exactly do I have to argue here? The general consensus amongst most Meta Knight mains, including high level ones, is that Sheik wins this match up. And yet my primary argument isn't necessarily that she does, but that:just wanna say that Leo isn't working with some fantastic sheik experience. the best sheiks in mexico are not high level sheiks, they're ok but not really that great. playing against tyrant is definitely better mk practice than the sheik practice Leo gets.
also
not only goes against the general consensus, but that it lacks proper foundational evidence.
because any dash attack that's that quick and can lead up to kill confirms is the best dash attack in my book.
I'm not the biggest Metaknight expert so I'm not entirely sure if it's hard to DI or not. However I know for a fact that it's guaranteed at certain %.
I play both characters and DK's bair is way better than Diddy's. DK's bair is the reason why he's so good at gimping and Diddy isn't. Diddy has a strong enough horizontal recovery to abuse good aerials in gimps, but he can't because his aerials aren't good enough.
I use it for tech chasing at lower percentages, that's the only use for me.
I do agree that it's not a very good, but but I can't see it as the worst when Marth/Lucina's still exist. They are some of the worst moves in the game, period.
It definitely isn't a bronze sword lol.
has that dishonor. In Smash 4 yeah, they are the worst. At least work in laggy matches, only work on people that have ADHD or just don't care.
Dash attacks would be the same, on top of my head would be:"characters who don't have solid reliable uses for their back air in their game play" (that are more meaningful than other moves used in the same situation)
