Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Jams.]

In my opinion, a tier list should be a visual representation of who has the best matchup spread, scaled with the meta -- getting scraped by sheik is much more meaningful than being 9:1 vs Pacman.

Using these parameters. Rosa is not top 3. She loses hard to ZSS, Sheik, Pikachu, Falcon, and perhaps others. Yes, she is very good. She is a noob killer with amazing options, frame traps, etc. She's great. However, because her bad matchup are what you encounter at tournaments.

Still not on a proper keyboard, so this is the short version, but, yeah, Rosa is top 5. She can't be top 3 when other characters have better spreads vs the meta.

I was about to make this argument, but then I thought more her matchup spread and it's honestly not bad. The biggest issue is her awful ZSS matchup. I don't think any other top tier has a matchup as bad as Rosalina vs ZSS other than Ness, who as a result gets shunted to the lower end of top tier. That said though, her other disadvantages versus Pikachu and Falcon are only slightly disadvantageous, and perfectly winnable. Her Sheik matchup is honestly pretty good and shouldn't be held against her. She's probably one of Sheik's 10 hardest matchups, and Rosa wins this matchup decently often at high level. Sheik is just a good character that basically beats the whole cast.

Now onto her advantageous matchups. She beats Mario, Diddy Kong, Fox, Sonic, hard counters Ness, and potentially beats Ryu. No other top tier can claim this many advantageous matchups against the rest of top tier (they generally have more even matchups, whereas I feel Rosa either loses or wins).

I haven't mentioned MK yet, because I'm not sure how relevant to the meta MK is right now. This is likely to be Rosa's second worst matchup though, so Rosa could potentially go down as more players pick up MK. Hasn't happened yet though, and the best US MKs don't seem as optimized as Leo or Abadango. Rosa also has some even or slightly disadvantaged matchups amongst B tier (ie. Yoshi, Ike, Peach, Olimar), but these characters are also less relevant to the meta. Considering Rosa is still getting great results just about everywhere, it suggests that her problem matchups don't impede her viability as a solo main. If people are using primarily top tier matchups and results to determine viability, I could see Rosa as third.

 

[Ffamran]

According to the commentators, Leo has never lost a Smash 4 set. His sponsor is working toward flying him to the US for Genesis 3. Here's hoping.

Children are our (Smash) future.

Wasn't Nairo like 14 when he was a top Brawl player? Looks like Leo will be the Smash 4 equivalent. Incidentally, both used Meta Knight in their "eras".

 

[Mario766]

How about we start there? If we're going based on match-up spread based on the meta, let's use the character used list from Smashboards from tournament confirmed results.

Top 12 characters used in tournaments from Smashboards list
Sheik
Diddy Kong
Falcon
Mario
Luigi
Ness
Fox
Yoshi
Sonic
Rosalina
Pikachu
ZSS

In this order. Let's start with the easiest one. DISCLAIMER. I DON'T PLAY THESE CHARACTERS SO I ONLY USE WHAT I SEE IN TOURNAMENT MATCHES AND USE THE META AS A START POINT.

Sheik is known for having either an advantage or even with basically the entire cast. She's obviously #1 in terms of results, theory and match-up spread. She basically has the best score.

ZSS has one of, it not the best advantage states in the game. With some of the most destructive strings and combos that kill at percents MK players dream of. She has some troubles in neutral against some characters but doesn't likely lose to anyone but Sheik most likely. She would be right behind Sheik in this situation.

Talking about the other main tournament threats would take forever and I know literally nothing about the characters to even talk about them. So I'll talk about my actual character, Ike.

Now Ike has a pretty solid MU spread. He loses to Sheik, big surprise. That can range anywhere from -1, to -2. The stronger the Ike is in neutral, the better he will do in the MU. A lot of the Sheiks who take out Ikes in tournament happen because of a very big punish that happens off a bad jump choice, like Karna vs Ryuga BH5. This is one of the biggest points in the MU, Sheik CAN and will gimp Ike for free if the Ike lets Sheik. I personally feel the Ike vs ZSS MU is even, but with ZSS mobility being so much better I can see it going towards -1. Diddy's strong neutral hurts Ike, as does banana set-ups. Looking about the same as ZSS, leading up to -1. We roll even with Mario, the buffs make him able to wall out Mario much more effectively. San and Ally went very close at Canada Cup, with San almost taking it 2-0. The Luigi MU used to be a problem, but I don't think it will be after the nerfs. Ness isn't too much of a problem. Our safe neutral makes his job harder, and we can punish badly spaced options harder than a lot of characters. Ness does a lot when we're off-stage however and back throw is just as prevalent. Fox is a -1. Too fast, good punishes. We have to slow down the pace and make him play our game. Yoshi is even, could be even a positive MU, Ike's aerials are a big obstacle for Yoshi with his extended hurtboxes and our high damage racking makes things scary for Yoshi. We also close stocks more effectively. We slightly win the Sonic MU. At worst it's even. We honestly go even with Rosa. It's another MU where both characters just mess each other up heavily.

and I'mma say it. I will say it. Everyone gonna blast me for this.

We beat Pikachu.

'nuff said.

Now what would this mean?

The more the character is used, the more it means. Losing to Falcon means more in this idea than losing to ZSS. There's just more Falcons. If you are having trouble against Falcon, you're likely to face them more in pools, more in early bracket. Not saying having a bad ZSS/Pikachu MU is a good thing, but in this idea losing to them isn't AS bad as losing to Falcon/Mario/Luigi.

 

[Vipermoon]

This Mexican player whom I met at TBH told me Leo also has a Marth.

 

[Ffamran]

This Mexican player whom I met at TBH told me Leo also has a Marth.

*checks Nairo's wiki entry* Nairo had a Marth in Brawl too... and a DK... Now, if Leo has a DK... Coincidence? I think not!

Incidentally, all the characters Nairo used in Brawl remain or are/became high tier in Smash 4. Well, Marth's a theoretical high tier while Meta Knight definitely is high tier and DK is considered high tier or at least a top/high tier heavyweight if or if not Ike is considered a heavyweight which he is, but isn't as DK and crew are more like juggernauts.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Whoops Mr. R Sheik got bodied by ally twice guess Mario beats/ goes even with . Or remember Salem who had that amazing run at Apex 2013 I guess ZSS goes even with MK in brawl... Just no. Oh wait when Esam almost beat ZeRo at Smash Con and people said Pika goes even wit Sheik as well. Oh wait or how about at CEO where there was only 1 Sheik in top 8 and people thought Fox had a good sheik MU because Larry beat Mr.R. See what I am getting at? People are waayyy tooo flippy floppy and indecisive about MU. Yes, sheik has advantage over 97% or more characters, doesn't mean she will always win, heck it doesn't mean she will always win 1 game. There are a LOT of factors that go into Sets and matches and not just MU ratios. There's a reason why people still say their character still lose to X character even if a player with the bad MU beat the other player. Time is one the main essence along with multiple matches with different people that determine MU along with theory ex. Melee, Brawl. But its starting to get tiresome to see people see a player beat another player to in a 40:60 or whatever MU and call it even only for them to be proven wrong over time, which by the way has happened far to much in this thread. I'm not saying to not analyze but you shouldn't make such strong claims off of a Set

 

[Ghostbone]

Isolated incidents don't match up to the CONSISTENT back and forth sets we get between MKs and Sheiks at similar skill levels all over the place.
Nobody's claiming that Leo beating Vinnie means MK wins, it's that we constantly hear about this MK beating this sheik or at least being very competitive, the evidence adds up that the matchup isn't bad for MK.

 

[Ulevo]

Isolated incidents don't match up to the CONSISTENT back and forth sets we get between MKs and Sheiks at similar skill levels all over the place.
Nobody's claiming that Leo beating Vinnie means MK wins, it's that we constantly hear about this MK beating this sheik or at least being very competitive, the evidence adds up that the matchup isn't bad for MK.

You're right. 4:6 against the best charactsr is not bad at all.

 

[Ghostbone]

You're right. 4:6 against the best charactsr is not bad at all.

What top level evidence is there that MK loses?

You can talk about how in theory MK gets needle camped or Sheik can just keep him out some other way but it doesn't seem to work out like that in practice (even against Sheiks with MK experience).

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Let the johns for Vinnie by MK mains begin. (I'm sympathetic of Vinnie's circumstances btw, but we can't keep making excuses for Sheik players when they lose this matchup)

I'm adamant that this matchup is even at top level.

I'm pretty sure Vinnie wasn't playing at his best. Didn't all of his belongings, including his best controller, get stolen?

 

[|RK|]

I'm pretty sure Vinnie wasn't playing at his best. Didn't all of his belongings, including his best controller, get stolen?

This seems like an unproductive train of thought. We need to know the tangible effects on Vinnie, if any. Let's do this - what did Vinnie do wrong that he would have normally done correctly? Did he look like he wasn't playing on point?

 

[warionumbah2]

This Mexican player whom I met at TBH told me Leo also has a Marth.

He also uses roy, he likes playing sword characters.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This seems like an unproductive train of thought. We need to know the tangible effects on Vinnie, if any. Let's do this - what did Vinnie do wrong that he would have normally done correctly? Did he look like he wasn't playing on point?

If something like that happened to vinnie there's no way he was in top form. Vinnie is probably held back the most by his composure. Also I think people should be more careful about where they travel. Some of these countries are bad news and very hostile to Americans.

 

[Jehtt]

Viability thread or Casual Racism thread? You decide.

I agree with RK Joker here. Anyone can say he was playing poorly but it doesn't mean anything unless you can also say why. In fact, I think it would be an interesting study since there's some debate about that MU. It would be interesting to see if there were any serious MU-specific mistakes Vinnie was making, if he had generally poor composure, or he just got straight outplayed by Leo.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth's a theoretical high tier

Theoretical in its purest sense, yes, high tier indeed. So purely theoretical that as proof you'll have to look at Melee and Brawl to see that his design is extremely good in 1v1 competitive Smash. But this game? Bad grab reward, non-reliable kill confirms, marginal safety, some of the worst hitbox injustice around, low damage output, and lack of representation hinder him to no end (summary: balance team stupidity; nothing to do with design). It's really sad and I'm honestly trying to keep a good attitude.

 

[bc1910]

Jab Utilt is pretty damn good as far as kill confirms go. Not a top tier confirm by any means (kills too late) but it's safe to attempt and fairly reliable.

His Uthrow isn't too bad for killing either. Kills about 5-10% later than Greninja's, which is actually one of the strongest in the game (only ROB, M2, Lucas and Zard have naturally stronger Uthrows, Olimar and Wii Fit can with a blue Pikmin or deep breathing respectively).

Not trying to say Marth is high tier or anything but I think he has less trouble killing than typical characters of his strength.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I consider all five Fire Emblem characters to be middle tier. Most of them have great power, and great sword range, awesome CQC, with Marth, Lucina, and Roy all having great speed as well. Along with that comes some of the best frame data you'll ever find.

Their specials are all pretty useful. Uncharged Shield Breaker is a quick way to make some spacing, while Dancing Blade is a natural combo. Marth and Lucina have decent recovery with high jumps and aerial Shield Breaker to aid them. Quick Draw can serve as a tool for mixups. Generally, Ike can recover horizontally at any time, provided he's not trying to go low. Eruption is also a mixup move, and it's pretty strong with a good set of hitboxes.

The swordsmen can do some strings, like a Marcina forward aerial string (or just a regular forward aerial) for gimping purposes. Roy also has a good down throw to Blazer combo. The way these guys swing their blades is amazing, too. All have pretty high hit rates. Ike's forward smash has hitboxes in the air, while his up aerial has hitboxes on all sides, and his neutral aerial is swung all the way below him. I've done a neutral aerial jumping off the stage to punish someone's recovery, maybe that can be a thing.

Finally, Robin. The fact that he has eleven projectiles is pretty odd for a swordsman. Thoron is one of the best projectiles in the game. It even has vertical reach, giving it anti-air applications. His one trapping Thunder attack (Elthunder or Arcthunder, I forget which one), along with Arcfire, combos into really anything Robin has. Levin Sword up aerial is one of the best moves for juggling. Overall, spacing isn't that effective against Robin.

The thing holding all of them back from being high tier is their recovery. They're quite easy to edgeguard/gimp. If you can bait out a Counter, you'll just make them fall to their deaths. Gimping Ike can be tricky, but possible if you get him low. Aside from their recovery, everyone except Robin has trouble countering projectiles, meaning that anyone with a deal of them can have positive matchups. This would include Duck Hunt, Pac-Man, and Villager.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Viability thread or Casual Racism thread? You decide.

I agree with RK Joker here. Anyone can say he was playing poorly but it doesn't mean anything unless you can also say why. In fact, I think it would be an interesting study since there's some debate about that MU. It would be interesting to see if there were any serious MU-specific mistakes Vinnie was making, if he had generally poor composure, or he just got straight outplayed by Leo.

Casual racism? What are you talking about?

 

[|RK|]

If something like that happened to vinnie there's no way he was in top form. Vinnie is probably held back the most by his composure. Also I think people should be more careful about where they travel. Some of these countries are bad news and very hostile to Americans.

This doesn't sound like it means anything, tbh.

 

[Routa]

Eruption is also a mixup move, and it's pretty strong with a good set of hitboxes

I would not call it a mixup move. It is way too risky to throw out as a mixup. Its main use is as a ÜB3R M45T3R edgeguarding tool. You can try to throw it out when you are trying to catch someone's landing, but it is so laggy so it is not the best tool for it.

Quick Draw can serve as a tool for mixups.

Yeah, but you should only use it for recovery. If you QD into shield...
You are going to have a bad time.
So use it only for recovery.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Jab Utilt is pretty damn good as far as kill confirms go. Not a top tier confirm by any means (kills too late) but it's safe to attempt and fairly reliable.

His Uthrow isn't too bad for killing either. Kills about 5-10% later than Greninja's, which is actually one of the strongest in the game (only ROB, M2, Lucas and Zard have naturally stronger Uthrows, Olimar and Wii Fit can with a blue Pikmin or deep breathing respectively).

Not trying to say Marth is high tier or anything but I think he has less trouble killing than typical characters of his strength.

How is mewtwo not on the list of strong uthrows? Pretty sure it's stronger than all the other characters you listed.

|RK| if what I said is meaningless to you then so be it.

 

[bc1910]

How is mewtwo not on the list of strong uthrows? Pretty sure it's stronger than all the other characters you listed.

|RK| if what I said is meaningless to you then so be it.

I said M2.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Is it weird that I have better performance overall with Lucina than Marth? And that I prefer Dark Pit over Pit? The only character I have trouble against is ZSS. Lucas, Ness, Little Mac, Captain Falcon, Sheik just annoy me albeit not much.

 

[Ulevo]

What top level evidence is there that MK loses?

You can talk about how in theory MK gets needle camped or Sheik can just keep him out some other way but it doesn't seem to work out like that in practice (even against Sheiks with MK experience).

I honestly do not need evidence, as arrogant as you may perceive that to be. I understand the character enough to know its limitations, and I know how easily exploited Meta Knight is in the match up versus how well Sheik is capitalized on. She has too many advantages in the match up to offset his reward game while also having a really good reward game in this match up specifically.

The bottom line is that the best Meta Knights are international players in different countries with plently of decent Sheik experience, or regional threats who just happen to be better than their opponents. Who do these top Sheiks play against for Meta Knight experience? Tyrant? Tyrant is not a good Meta Knight player, regardless of his results. He is miles away from playing the character properly, and if you need an illustration of proper play, look at Leo's game 2/3 in his latest GF against Vinnie.

Meta Knight is like Zero Suit. He has arguably the best punish game in Smash Wii U, and when your opponent makes mistakes, you lose for it. If you do not know what to do and not to in the match up, it is going to exaggerate the results and make them swingy, similiar to Melee Ice Climbers.

 

[Smog Frog]

i'm curious. who has the best bair? there are so many candidates, including but not limited to, .

 

[PK Gaming]

Finally, Robin. The fact that he has eleven projectiles is pretty odd for a swordsman. Thoron is one of the best projectiles in the game. It even has vertical reach, giving it anti-air applications. His one trapping Thunder attack (Elthunder or Arcthunder, I forget which one), along with Arcfire, combos into really anything Robin has. Levin Sword up aerial is one of the best moves for juggling. Overall, spacing isn't that effective against Robin.

Thoron isn't actually that good. It has its uses, but it's definitely inferior to Elthunder and Arcthunder.

 

[Dre89]

i'm curious. who has the best bair? there are so many candidates, including but not limited to, .

Not going to comment on the other bairs because I don't know them well enough, but I am gonna say that DK's is probably better than Doc's and Ganon's. It has more range than Doc's and quicker than Ganon's. It might not kill as early but it's still a really reliable kill tool. It's also ridiculously good for gimping. It's so fast, has a disjoint and ends so quickly that you can actually frametrap certain air dodges if you space it well enough.

This is just looking at the move in a vacuum. It isn't considering DK-specific applications like the fact that he can do two in one short hop, or that it combos out of cargo uthrow for a large percent window.

I'd say Doc and Ganon would be better characters if they had DK's bair.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

i'm curious. who has the best bair? there are so many candidates, including but not limited to, .

Easily Ike imo. Good disjoint, good speed, and good damage with low lag. Only DK and ZSS got that list of strengths and DK is laggier and ZSS has a more finicky hitbox.

 

[Dre89]

Easily Ike imo. Good disjoint, good speed, and good damage with low lag. Only DK and ZSS got that list of strengths and DK is laggier and ZSS has a more finicky hitbox.

DK's is laggier? How quick is Ike's bair?

 

[|RK|]

How is mewtwo not on the list of strong uthrows? Pretty sure it's stronger than all the other characters you listed.

|RK| if what I said is meaningless to you then so be it.

Not to be snide, but I really don't get why we're allergic to evidence in a discussion thread. Unless you can back up the idea that Vinnie played worse than normal, why say it?

Matchups are determined by theory AND results, with results given more weight. If we see a particular result over and over again, why should we stick to the same theories we've always held?

 

[Antonykun]

i'm curious. who has the best bair? there are so many candidates, including but not limited to, .

I decided to expand just a little bit on Viability being a ratio of effort to result. For starters there are two typees of effort: Character effort and Player effort:

Character Effort is how hard is it to play a specified character at a high/top level play: Shulk is high character effort due to his laggy, unsafe moveset coupled with monados where as Ganon has low character effort due to him having no unique things going on for him while also having plenty of strong highly rewarding moves

Player Effort is how hard is it to beat your opponent with said character: Sheik has low ish player effort due to how safe and dominating she is once you are a robot with her whereas Ganon is high player effort because it is easy to wall him out and how much of a read based gameplan he has

some explanationless examples:

Low Character Effort - High Result:
() pre nerfs

High Character Effort - High Results


Low Player Effort - High Results


High Player Effort - High Results

() ESAM and Ranai have to be worth SOMEthing

don't ask where I would put your character as you probably know better than I do

btw Low Effort and Low Results do not exist if your character is not winning because you are not putting in the effort then of course you are going to lose

 

[FlynnCL]

Fox's back-aerial is definitely up there too just because of its extreme safety on shield (hitbox active frame 9 and auto-cancels frame 15). From spending a few hours labbing things out when 1.1.1 hit, I'm almost certain you're at a very punishable disadvantage on shield drop or from shield grab attempts. It isn't without flaws, such as low-ish range and near Ike-tier amounts of aerial cool-down, but it's still ridiculous.

I personally think Donkey Kong has the best back-aerial in the game though. It's only real flaw is the lack of a generous auto-cancel that Fox or Falcon's boast. Villager, Falco, Ryu, Dr. Mario, Zero Suit and maybe Robin all have amazing back-aerials too.

Which would be the worst back-aerials in the game?

 

[KirbySquad101]

DK's is laggier? How quick is Ike's bair?

Don't know what he means; both start on the same frame (frame 7), Ike's has more landing lag (19 frames compared to 18 frames), auto cancels later (>35 compared to >31), and has much more FAF (frame 55 compared to DK's frame 32)

Palutena also has a good b-air, along with Captain Falcon.

 

[LancerStaff]

hitboxes

Dude, you need to quit whinning about the hitboxes. First, they're never going to be fixed. And second, Pit has the same exact problems, and the only reason this isn't common knowledge is because we don't feel the need to bring it up every time we talk about the character. (Pit's Ftilt looks like it comes out on like frame 6 but actually hits on frame 10 and literally one of Pit's swords lacks any hitboxes. And that's the tip of the iceberg.) You see me lament the various stigma Pit's gotten... I see you and almost every other Marth player giving him a bad name at every turn. If you're upset with his representation then I don't think what you're doing is helping. Heck, if Marth got something that made him a high tier at this point I don't think people would play him because everybody thinks he is and will always be trash at this point.

 

[Ffamran]

i'm curious. who has the best bair? there are so many candidates, including but not limited to, .

We have a thread dedicated on best moves: http://smashboards.com/threads/best-moves-of-each-type.384871/unread.

That said, I'd add Link's to the mix in terms of utility and safety.

Which would be the worst back-aerials in the game?

We don't have a worst moves thread, but... Zelda. Probably the best Bair (and Fair) on paper and in theory, but the worst in practice. It's like the theory of if Ganondorf or anyone like Little Mac or even Sheik could read everything a player does and was played perfectly, then they would be the best characters... In reality that can't happen and it might lead to stalemates when both sides read and play perfectly.

Anyway, Little Mac's Bair is probably better than Zelda's since at least it does decent (for Little Mac aerial standards), constant knockback, so you can't really screw it up. After that... I dunno, Lucas, Bowser, Lucina, and maybe Lucario? Just throwing out names at this point since I don't really know, however, Bowser's high landing lag of 40 on a Bair with short range relative to most of his attacks and being slightly stronger? than Ganondorf's which is safer is stupid. Lucario's is only up there because while it's strong, it's atrociously slow. I've nothing for Lucas and Lucina.

 

[Trunks159]

Its not like hitboxes don't get fixed. are a few who I can name off the top of my head.

As for best bair, its probably . Low landing lag, safe on shield, disjointed, super early kills, auto cancelable.

 

[wedl!!]

I'd say Mac's bair is the worst, but that's cheating.

Other than him it's probably Lucas, Lucario and Zelda. All three are incredibly laggy without generous AC windows and basically are only usable due to their power. Zelda's is probably the best of the three but even then it's still a terrible move that doesn't work in execution.

Ffamran Bowser Bair autocancels on SH, just saying.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Its not like hitboxes don't get fixed. are a few who I can name off the top of my head.

As for best bair, its probably . Low landing lag, safe on shield, disjointed, super early kills, auto cancelable.

Can't be Ike's as its not spamable in the air. Auto-canceling? Yes. Using multiple times in the air? Not unless you started reaaaaaally high up. I will say its probably the best disjoint heavy bair though.

In a vacuum probably either DK or Falco's for overall. Considering the character as a whole I'd lean more towards DK.

 

[Ffamran]

Its not like hitboxes don't get fixed. are a few who I can name off the top of my head.

As for best bair, its probably . Low landing lag, safe on shield, disjointed, super early kills, auto cancelable.

Also, Diddy, yes, Diddy, Falco, Zelda, Dr. Mario?, I think Marth and Lucina had hitbox fixes unless I'm remembering something wrong, Bowser, Pit?, and Link.

Ike's Bair has 19 landing frames. That's not low. Of the bunch asked, ZSS has the lowest at 11 followed by Falco at 15, the Doc at 16, Ike, and both DK and Mega Man at 20. In terms of raw power and speed, I think Falco wins since he can kill at 100% at the center whilst being frame 4, but in terms of stupidity and utility, DK since he can carry you off with it or ZSS who can easily setup hers if other ZSS kill options don't work for whatever reason.

Ffamran Bowser Bair autocancels on SH, just saying.

I know, but the landing lag is extreme for no reason. It's strong, but the specs around it is punishing. Oh, you screwed up? Enjoy a turtle flopped on the ground questioning his life.

 

[TurboLink]

Also, Diddy, yes, Diddy, Falco, Zelda, Dr. Mario?, I think Marth and Lucina had hitbox fixes unless I'm remembering something wrong, Bowser, Pit?, and Link.

Ike's Bair has 19 landing frames. That's not low. Of the bunch asked, ZSS has the lowest at 11 followed by Falco at 15, the Doc at 16, Ike, and both DK and Mega Man at 20. In terms of raw power and speed, I think Falco wins since he can kill at 100% at the center whilst being frame 4, but in terms of stupidity and utility, DK since he can carry you off with it or ZSS who can easily setup hers if other ZSS kill options don't work for whatever reason.


I know, but the landing lag is extreme for no reason. It's strong, but the specs around it is punishing. Oh, you screwed up? Enjoy a turtle flopped on the ground questioning his life.

Wow, just looked at his frame data and his bair has 40 frames of landing lag. I didn't even know that some moves even went that high!