Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[C0rvus]

When debating whether x character and y character is better, difficulty does not and should not be taken into account. If people used that logic, would be a low or mid tier. Deciding on whether or not a character is better should be based on the usefulness of the tools that the game or "labbers" provide for the people who inserted a game into their gaming console. Another determining factor is results. If a character has little rep it suffers on the tier list for example or .

I'm not talking about ease of use impacting the tier list. I'm not a ****ing idiot lol. My post was in reference to Reddit making a list to just quantify ease of use. Not the most useful tool, especially if Reddit makes it.

 

[Project Quarantine]

You guys, we can't make distinct orders of characters until we disect matchups, like what was done in developing brawl. (Example: the pika boards )

That's like trying to make a baking recipe without the key ingredients

 

[Xxaz_v]

That's like trying to make a baking recipe without the key ingredients

All you need is a piece of paper and a writing utensil.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Why does everyone here have a superiority complex? I've spent just as much time here as I have /r/smashbros and you guys are very much alike

 

[Apeirohaon]

I made a Fall Speed vs Weight graph. Might do a gravity vs weight one too, since that may be more relevant for seeing what characters have similar comboability

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Why does everyone here have a superiority complex? I've spent just as much time here as I have /r/smashbros and you guys are very much alike

Everyone here doesn't have a superiority complex. There's just a low tolerance for idiocy around these parts. There's a big difference.

 

[Nobie]

Nobie , you don't just make a post like that and not link the VOD.

Whoops here you go: http://www.twitch.tv/ninjalink/v/23545510

It's all over that video so no time code.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Just got back from a local. I can now say from experience that Doc has a really really good Fox matchup, and I think this keeps him relevant as a secondary. Tornado kinda mutilates Fox offstage, Doc can break his combos with Up B, Fox dies to Dthrow Fair really early... like damn. You cannot underestimate that clutch factor. It's how I came back after being down 80% on the last stock of game 3. Fear Doc with rage.

 

[Antonykun]

I fail to see this. His recovery, while being less dangerous than say Sheik or Meta Knights, is easily tied for first given how far he can reach and how long he can stall.

You are gambling with your stock if you try to stall with balloon trip due to fuel mechanics

He has excellent stage picks.

not wrong but Castle Seige triggers me

Hs hits like a truck.

I wouldn't say she "hits like a truck" due to her low knock back on her moves out side of F-smash/Timber

He has one of the best kill throws in the game.

from one of the worst grabs in the game

He is one of the only characters that can use neutral options out of a run ala Melee's dash cancelled crouch due to an incredible skid animation.

I should really implement more of that Dash into F/D tilt really helps with her ground game

he has sub par mobility

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Villager
"sub par" is an understatement, mobility that bad would be a death sentence if not for the fact that a lot of other things about her are that good

I do agree with everything else though

 

[Green L]

And because of his good shorthop game, strong d-throw followups and the fact that PK Fire in neutral is basically a guaranteed end to your stock at high percents.

By "strong down throw setups" you mean down throw < fair until 30% right? Because that's his only combo. Past that 30% mark his "combos" disappear. Pk fire is s laggy and short range and you can easily di out of it before ness can grab you. Pk fire only threatening because of back throw

 

[Wintropy]

Pk fire only threatening because of back throw

That's the joke.

I agree that Ness isn't that good. But it's incorrect to say it's just because of b-throw. That's a big deal, but it isn't the be-all / end-all of his competitive efficacy. Do remember he has pretty good frame data and a pretty decent neutral game, which makes getting the grab that much easier.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Everyone here doesn't have a superiority complex. There's just a low tolerance for idiocy around these parts. There's a big difference.

You literally just proved my point. You guys hold this belief that /r/smashbros is inherently stupider and less correct. Sure there are some pretty stupid people, but they are rare and get downvoted to oblivion. The discussions there are just as good as the ones here.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

You ltierally just proved my point. You guys hold this belief that /r/smashbros is inherently stupider and less correct. Sure there are some pretty stupid people, but they are rare and get downvoted to oblivion. The discussions there are just as good as the ones here.

Lol you're funny

 

[Pikabunz]

Pikabunz sorry to bother, but I'd like to hear in your opinion, how you would place Pikachu.
I have heard you say he's not as good as people constantly make him out to be, whats your entire opinion.

I'd put him around 6-10. Like Mario, he's just a really all around solid character with no big weakness but also doesn't have anything broken like Sheik, Rosa, and ZSS do. His match-up spread is very evenish across the board so he can lose to almost any character, he doesn't dominate the lower tier characters like Sheik, Rosa, ZSS, and Sonic do. I think out of the top 5 players, ESAM is the one that has the most loses to characters outside top tier. When you have a Pikachu player that is way above the rest but is still capable of losing to mid and low tiers, then it's hard to say that Pikachu is top 3 material.

 

[Antonykun]

You literally just proved my point. You guys hold this belief that /r/smashbros is inherently stupider and less correct. Sure there are some pretty stupid people, but they are rare and get downvoted to oblivion. The discussions there are just as good as the ones here.

I'd hate to stop whatever you are going for, but how does this relate to smash 4 character viability.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Lol you're funny

so are you gonna disprove me or just sit here laughing at me? you're not exactly helping your case. if anything, we shouldn't keep discussing this since it's pretty off-topic.

 

[Ulevo]

I'd put him around 6-10. Like Mario, he's just a really all around solid character with no big weakness but also doesn't have anything broken like Sheik, Rosa, and ZSS do. His match-up spread is very evenish across the board so he can lose to almost any character, he doesn't dominate the lower tier characters like Sheik, Rosa, ZSS, and Sonic do. I think out of the top 5 players, ESAM is the one that has the most loses to characters outside top tier. When you have a Pikachu player that is way above the rest but is still capable of losing to mid and low tiers, then it's hard to say that Pikachu is top 3 material.

Personally I would put Quick Attack down as Pikachu's signature top tier quality. I would not say it is as good as the others, like Luma, but it is the only quality that pushes him past being a mere Mario-esque quality character. This coming from a non-Pikachu main, of course.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I'd put him around 6-10. Like Mario, he's just a really all around solid character with no big weakness but also doesn't have anything broken like Sheik, Rosa, and ZSS do. His match-up spread is very evenish across the board so he can lose to almost any character, he doesn't dominate the lower tier characters like Sheik, Rosa, ZSS, and Sonic do. I think out of the top 5 players, ESAM is the one that has the most loses to characters outside top tier. When you have a Pikachu player that is way above the rest but is still capable of losing to mid and low tiers, then it's hard to say that Pikachu is top 3 material.

Wait, who do you think is the 5th best player? I know ZeRo, Nairo, and Dabuz (At least I hope you think they're all top 5 lol) but whos the 5th one? Ally? Or is it somebody else?

 

[Green L]

I agree that Ness isn't that good. But it's incorrect to say it's just because of b-throw. That's a big deal, but it isn't the be-all / end-all of his competitive efficacy. Do remember he has pretty good frame data and a pretty decent neutral game, which makes getting the grab that much easier.

Ness is a two trick pony. Take away his down throw"combos" and reduce the knockback on his back throw to little mac level and suddenly ness isn't so good anymore. His reward from grabs is a big chunk of his viability

 

[Ghostbone]

Ness is a two trick pony. Take away his down throw"combos" and reduce the knockback on his back throw to little mac level and suddenly ness isn't so good anymore. His reward from grabs is a big chunk of his viability

Except in reality he has those options so he is actually good.

Even outside of d-throw combos, f-throw puts your opponent off stage and might as well combo into PK thunder for some free damage. And because his grab is so threatening ness can easily get up-air or d-smash kills.

 

[Wintropy]

Ness is a two trick pony. Take away his down throw"combos" and reduce the knockback on his back throw to little mac level and suddenly ness isn't so good anymore. His reward from grabs is a big chunk of his viability

You cannot remove a character's best options and then say they're not a good character without the options that make them good.

Grab reward is a big chunk of his viability, but even so, there is more to him than just that. I don't think he's a top character (but he is still very good), but you can't divorce theory from reality when observing a character's viability.

 

[L9999]

Except in reality he has those options so he is actually good.

Even outside of d-throw combos, f-throw puts your opponent off stage and might as well combo into PK thunder for some free damage. And because his grab is so threatening ness can easily get up-air or d-smash kills.

More like followup instead of comboing, but yes, F-Throw's only use is to GTFO and snipe DJs with PK Thunder or Nair/Fair. The ocassional disrespect aerial PK Fire snipe as well. Also commenting on Uair kills, air-dodging against Ness is almost never an option. You dodged Uair? Cool, now get Naired. Dodged Nair and moved behind? Baired to the face. Etc.

 

[⑨ball]

Ness is a two trick pony. Take away his down throw"combos" and reduce the knockback on his back throw to little mac level and suddenly ness isn't so good anymore. His reward from grabs is a big chunk of his viability

Take away those things and Ness still has:

• Transcendent and largely disjointed Fair that combos into itself, and is active for something like 10 frames
• Frame 3 jab
• Frame 3 Dtilt that trips
• Frame 5 near-full body nair
• Frame 6 grab
• 15%, 100 kbg bair
• 13%, 109 kbg uair
• An absorb that has an area affect for some reason, with virtually no cool down
• A no commitment offstage harassment tool

There's pretty much nothing on this list that isn't amazing and most players would love to be able to say at least 2-3 things about their own character, and this is just stuff off the top of my head.

Also assuming that somehow Ness retains his damage while losing kb on bthrow, it'd likely become a combo throw for him instead of dthrow.

 

[David Viran]

More like followup instead of comboing, but yes, F-Throw's only use is to GTFO and snipe DJs with PK Thunder or Nair/Fair. The ocassional disrespect aerial PK Fire snipe as well. Also commenting on Uair kills, air-dodging against Ness is almost never an option. You dodged Uair? Cool, now get Naired. Dodged Nair and moved behind? Baired to the face. Etc.

Just going to point out that ness's aerials don't truly frame trap ADs like that with out it being into the ground. A good AD comes out on frame 2 with the faf being about 30 frames and ness's nair comes out on frame 3 with a faf of 36.

 

[L9999]

Just going to point out that ness's aerials don't truly frame trap ADs like that with out it being into the ground. A good AD comes out on frame 2 with the faf being about 30 frames and ness's nair comes out on frame 3 with a faf of 36.

Yeah, I was talking about punishing air dodges near the ground. Could have explained more in detail...

 

[Dre89]

Who cares if a character is 11th or 12th. Discussing a character's ability to perform in tourneys is really what matters.

 

[Trunks159]

Edit. Smashboards is going crazy for me. Didn't mean to post.
To contribute. @post above, there's nothing wrong with discussing meaningless things.

 

[Wintropy]

meaningless things

You kind of responded to your own statement there. There's no point discussing the abstract details of tier placement when the tiers don't even exist in the first place; it doesn't contribute anything, it just takes up space and creates unnecessary quibbles.

This isn't a social thread. We're here to inform and be informed.

 

[Thinkaman]

Arguing about precise tier placements is basically astrology.

“In astrology the rules happen to be about stars and planets, but they could be about ducks and drakes for all the difference it would make. It's just a way of thinking about a problem which lets the shape of that problem begin to emerge. The more rules, the tinier the rules, the more arbitrary they are, the better. It's like throwing a handful of fine graphite dust on a piece of paper to see where the hidden indentations are. It lets you see the words that were written on the piece of paper above it that's now been taken away and hidden. The graphite's not important. It's just the means of revealing the indentations. So you see, astrology's nothing to do with astronomy. It's just to do with people thinking about people.”

― Douglas Adams, Mostly Harmless

As long the discussion about our made up numbers and constellations serve as the graphite dust to communicate our personal knowledge and underlying experiences about the characters, that's the most anyone could hope for.

 

[thehard]

Leo beats Vinnie 3-1 in GFs of True Combo, a large Mexican tournament.

 

[Illuminose]

so um.

uh.

void beat larry in 2 sets of fox dittos.

 

[L9999]

Leo beats Vinnie 3-1 in GFs of True Combo, a large Mexican tournament.

Another top Sheik player bites the dust thanks to Leo. Who is next? ZeRo? Rain? Because it would be really cool. Go Mexico!

 

[Kaladin]

In my opinion, a tier list should be a visual representation of who has the best matchup spread, scaled with the meta -- getting scraped by sheik is much more meaningful than being 9:1 vs Pacman.

Using these parameters. Rosa is not top 3. She loses hard to ZSS, Sheik, Pikachu, Falcon, and perhaps others. Yes, she is very good. She is a noob killer with amazing options, frame traps, etc. She's great. However, because her bad matchup are what you encounter at tournaments.

Still not on a proper keyboard, so this is the short version, but, yeah, Rosa is top 5. She can't be top 3 when other characters have better spreads vs the meta.

 

[FallofBrawl]

so um.

uh.

void beat larry in 2 sets of fox dittos.

Void had the tech skill advantage over Larry while Larry had the character knowledge. The fact that they played two sets really helped Void in seeing the things Larry does with his Fox, then copying him. Still, Larry is the best Fox, Void is just superb at the ditto/Larry matchup.

 

[Browny]

Shadow ball + confusion is an amazing combination for forcing approaches and actions instead of having to take the initiative yourself

This is what so many people dont get.

People are like 'omg Mewtwo is bad because he has an awful neutral game', throwing the term 'neutral game' around with absolutely no understanding of the concept.

When you have a spammable/safe projectile, a reflector and a combination of fast, safe, long range aerials and tilts to space out the enemy, its impossible to have a poor neutral game.

Yeah his disadvantage state is bad, but his neutral game is EASILY in the top half of the cast because people need to remember that there is more than 1 character in a match, it takes two to have a matchup. A character like Megaman can have a neutral game that ****s all over most of the cast yet vs Mewtwo he loses almost all of his safety in the neutral game and in some ways, loses out to Mewtwo in it. Villager is the same who just dominates everyones neutral but Mewtwo is one of a handful of characters who can actually keep him honest.

Using confusion to reflect a bowling ball that was dropped over the ledge, back up to hit villager, is amazing.

 

[Dre89]

Why do people act surprised when people win bad matchups at a high level

"top tier main X lost to Dr. Mario, guess Dr. Mario counters this character"

I can't believe peope still think MU advantage still automatically equates to a win in 2015. People have been winning 3-7s at a high level since Brawl.

 

[Ghostbone]

Leo beats Vinnie 3-1 in GFs of True Combo, a large Mexican tournament.

Let the johns for Vinnie by MK mains begin. (I'm sympathetic of Vinnie's circumstances btw, but we can't keep making excuses for Sheik players when they lose this matchup)

I'm adamant that this matchup is even at top level.

 

[Browny]

I am liking the implication that Leo is top level.

Kid does literally EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to get recognised as a top player and people keep ignoring him sigh. Its hard to travel internationally when you're so young.

 

[thehard]

According to the commentators, Leo has never lost a Smash 4 set. His sponsor is working toward flying him to the US for Genesis 3. Here's hoping.

Children are our (Smash) future.

 

[Ulevo]

Let the johns for Vinnie by MK mains begin. (I'm sympathetic of Vinnie's circumstances btw, but we can't keep making excuses for Sheik players when they lose this matchup)

I'm adamant that this matchup is even at top level.

And you'd still be wrong.