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Well, it depends on what factors we want to take into consideration when defining what the best bair is. Like, Ganon and ZSS obviously have strong bairs but they are only active for one or two frames. DK and Falco's bairs are weaker in kill power but they are active for a longer amount of time. Which one is more important?
Also, we really should look at which bair is best in the context of the character's toolkit. For example, Mega Man's bair is great for him because he loves to harass his opponent off stage with projectiles and aerials, so having a strong aerial with several active frames is exactly what he needs for that. Other characters might not want it though; I think Ike prefers his hard hitting, safe on shield back air as it is and wouldn't prefer to have Mega Man's multhitting aerial that doesn't really work in neutral.
I'd put Robin's Bair down as an honorable mention. Frame 8/9, fantastic range and disjoint, autocancels out of a SH, cooldown is small, kills at 90 at the ledge with no rage, can be chained into from Arcthunder, Arcfire, and weak Levin Uair, and weak Levin Bair chains into a strong Levin Uair or strong Levin Bair.
I'm surprised people chose Doc but forgot to mention when we're talking Bairs. I'm not sure how shield safe Luigi's Bair is compared to Doc, but I'm fairly certain that it comes out on the same frame and is stronger. Probably Luigi's second best aerial (#1 being the one and only Nair)
Edit: Just looked up data for both Bairs I mentioned and Luigi's comes out slightly stronger (12 base KB with 100 KBG as opposed to Doc's which has 10 KB and 95 KBG. Not that big of a difference, but Luigi's comes out the winner here, in case anyone was dying to know the statistics).
I'm surprised people chose Doc but forgot to mention when we're talking Bairs. I'm not sure how shield safe Luigi's Bair is compared to Doc, but I'm fairly certain that it comes out on the same frame and is stronger. Probably Luigi's second best aerial (#1 being the one and only Nair)
It's nearly a Rosalina in vertical range and it's quick. It's got to be one of the best walling tools in the game. I'm pretty sure bair spam with Luma is literally unpunishable by some characters.
I'd probably give best bair to if we're just looking at the attack itself, I usually find myself thinking DK's is better but that has more to do with his superior air speed letting him do more with it (Falco can actually combo bair>bair at really specific percents still, though)
I don't know how Lucario's is getting nominated for worst. That thing's so strong it's safe on shield even at 0%, only has 15f landing lag, is hugely disjointed, and probably kills even earlier than Zelda's lightning kicks around ~100% without having to sweetspot. It can even combo off Aura Sphere charge or a backwards fair. When you have that much going for your attack, it's allowed to be the speed of a standard fsmash.
Worst bair imo (ignoring Mac) probably belongs to a character I haven't looked at if it isn't Zelda's. Is there any value to Link's frame 6, two-hit, 8% bair that doesn't kill and doesn't use his sword?
I'd probably give best bair to if we're just looking at the attack itself, I usually find myself thinking DK's is better but that has more to do with his superior air speed letting him do more with it (Falco can actually combo bair>bair at really specific percents still, though)
I don't know how Lucario's is getting nominated for worst. That thing's so strong it's safe on shield even at 0%, only has 15f landing lag, is hugely disjointed, and probably kills even earlier than Zelda's lightning kicks around ~100% without having to sweetspot. When you have that much going for your attack, it's allowed to be the speed of a standard fsmash.
Worst bair imo (ignoring Mac) probably belongs to a character I haven't looked at if it isn't Zelda's. Is there any value to Link's frame 6, two-hit, 8% bair that doesn't kill and doesn't use his sword?
Well, yes and no. The rapid jab finisher hits somewhat more consistently but it didn't miss in the first place because of a "missing" hitbox.
And of course it's still not really worth using the rapid jab. It went from "only useful for catching dodges" to "you can probably use this once every hundred matches without somebody escaping because people forget it exists."
Biased or not, Doc and DK blow the other ones out of the water, for different reasons though. DK can do 2 in one shorthop and is safe on block when spaced as well as boasting the ability to Wall of Pain with it. It's huge and true combos into itself with 13% damage.
Doc's on the other hand SH FF autocancels, making it even safer than DK's and is a bulk of his gameplan in neutral.
Honorable mentions go to Ike and Bowser because damn those moves are scary as hell doing 14 and 19 respectively as well as killing you incredibly early. Bowser's is better in a vaccum, but Ike's works better with his non-frame 8 jumpsquat.
Villager's is actually unique and exceptional but I'm not sure where to put it.
It's really impractical to look at aerials in a vacuum because shorthop height alone has so much to do with their usability, for example whether you can hit grounded characters with it on rising shorthop or not. What is the shorthop height of a vacuum? Greninja? Jigglypuff? Something in the middle?
Robin's back air is the best if you're fishing for a kill since it's about as strong as Falco's, has as much range as ZSS' and is disjointed, points downwards so it hits most grounded characters with rising SH, and is safe on shield even if you hit with it before landing. Also lingers if you happen to miss the sweetspot. Comes out on frame 9 so pretty average speed.
I'd say the characters who get the most out of their back airs however are probably ZSS, DK and Falcon. Falcon and ZSS in particular have super safe back airs, can combo one into a dash grab at low percents and can kill with them at around 115-130% from center stage. ZSS' is faster and has more range, Falcon's has a better hitbox and lingers so it works as a walling tool. DK's basically combines the two but with the cost of some power while being laggier on landing and having a godlike FAF, and it can combo into itself at low percents. Hits probably every character on rising SH and is super good for edgeguarding.
I have no idea about Falco's, just that his back air lacks some range and he doesn't have great aerial mobility to abuse it with.
I'd say Mac's bair is the worst, but that's cheating.
Other than him it's probably Lucas, Lucario and Zelda. All three are incredibly laggy without generous AC windows and basically are only usable due to their power. Zelda's is probably the best of the three but even then it's still a terrible move that doesn't work in execution.
Ffamran
Bowser Bair autocancels on SH, just saying.
Lucario's bair bad? It's certainly different from the others due to being about 6 frames slower than average, but it's active for twice as long and has crazy knockback. On an above-mid aura Lucario it's basically Falcon's knee with a much better hitbox. I've died to the move at 40% and wasn't even offstage. AC window isn't really important if your back air usually does 20% damage and has only 15 frames of landing lag.
A more interesting topic may be F-Airs and their usages. Off the top of my head, there are "categories" that FAirs can be listed in:
Multi-hit - ex. Ness, Rosa, Sonic, Falco
Strong but slow - ex. Mario, Peach, DK
Swipe walling - ex. Sheik, Marth, Mega
Lingering walls - Ex. G&W, Puff, Jr. sex kick - Ryu
Forward facing options are incredibly valuable for their utility. While they're not the most glorified of moves usually (unless you're sheik), it would be a more productive topic than repeatedly glorifying your own character's BAir.
Not to be snide, but I really don't get why we're allergic to evidence in a discussion thread. Unless you can back up the idea that Vinnie played worse than normal, why say it?
Matchups are determined by theory AND results, with results given more weight. If we see a particular result over and over again, why should we stick to the same theories we've always held?
I honestly do not need evidence, as arrogant as you may perceive that to be. I understand the character enough to know its limitations, and I know how easily exploited Meta Knight is in the match up versus how well Sheik is capitalized on. She has too many advantages in the match up to offset his reward game while also having a really good reward game in this match up specifically.
If this is coming from your own anecdotal experience, it might be rude, but perhaps you're not good enough to play the matchup properly? If MK was so abusable by Sheik, why don't results reflect this?
The bottom line is that the best Meta Knights are international players in different countries with plently of decent Sheik experience, or regional threats who just happen to be better than their opponents. Who do these top Sheiks play against for Meta Knight experience? Tyrant? Tyrant is not a good Meta Knight player, regardless of his results. He is miles away from playing the character properly, and if you need an illustration of proper play, look at Leo's game 2/3 in his latest GF against Vinnie.
Tyrant is the best US MK, I'm sure Mexico doesn't have any Sheiks on Mr. R or Vinnie's level, why do only Sheik mains get matchup inexperience as an excuse?
Meta Knight is like Zero Suit. He has arguably the best punish game in Smash Wii U, and when your opponent makes mistakes, you lose for it. If you do not know what to do and not to in the match up, it is going to exaggerate the results and make them swingy, similiar to Melee Ice Climbers.
Players make mistakes, the whole game is about baiting certain options from your opponent and punishing, if even the best Sheiks in the world still get beaten by MK that means MK's gameplan in the matchup works. Brawl ICs had the best MK matchup in the game (close to even) despite MK destroying nana and being hard to grab and what not. Ridiculously strong punish games DO swing matchups a lot, even against players who know how to play against the character (that's just when the mindgames begin)
A more interesting topic may be F-Airs and their usages. Off the top of my head, there are "categories" that FAirs can be listed in:
Multi-hit - ex. Ness, Rosa, Sonic, Falco
Strong but slow - ex. Mario, Peach, DK
Swipe walling - ex. Sheik, Marth, Mega
Lingering walls - Ex. G&W, Puff, Jr. sex kick - Ryu
Forward facing options are incredibly valuable for their utility. While they're not the most glorified of moves usually (unless you're sheik), it would be a more productive topic than repeatedly glorifying your own character's BAir.
Certain characters have nairs and zairs for their forward facing options though. Really it depends on the character whether they'd benefit more from Sheik's fair or from Samus' zair, they're both amazing walling tools but very different in their utility.
I'm sure your categorizations weren't meant to be very thorough, but I'll still point out that multi-hit doesn't really mean anything by itself, compare ZSS and Pikachu for example. The fact that both fairs can be listed as multi-hits doesn't really describe their purpose, rather the former is a weird follow-up / interception tool and the latter is a traditional walling tool. Walling tools could be separated into linear and arced ones, and there can be linear walling tools that don't really linger for more than a few frames and are more like pokes, for example Diddy's and Palutena's fairs. Multi-hit is essentially the same as lingering, so Ness and G&W type fairs are pretty much equal in their purpose. Peach, Ganondorf, Robin and even Bowser/Charizard fairs are arced walling tools and slow/strong moves at the same time. Then there's special ones that can't really be thrown into categories like ZSS, Falcon, Mario, Link and DK, although these are generally less useful than walling tools if your character otherwise lacks them.
Your fair doesn't really matter, your horizontal options do whether it's fair, bair, nair, zair or uair/dair (there are some of those too).
You mean Kirby's? I believe it was 9 frames actually, but yea its definitely good....but its like....not anything special? Or like...its just a plain Bair that's better then most, but.....man its hard to describe it in other words.
Pika's fair is a good multi-hit option that is no longer totally unsafe on shield without auto-cancelling. It's probably his most usable aerial in neutral (except for maybe uair which is still really good like we figured out during late-Brawl and why don't we use it more?).
Yoshi's fair is notable in the "strong but slow" category (especially since he can confirm it off of eggs). DIO has actually landed it offstage vs. competent opponents at reasonable death %s, which is important because we often see Yoshi struggling to kill.
Dude, you need to quit whinning about the hitboxes. First, they're never going to be fixed. And second, Pit has the same exact problems, and the only reason this isn't common knowledge is because we don't feel the need to bring it up every time we talk about the character. (Pit's Ftilt looks like it comes out on like frame 6 but actually hits on frame 10 and literally one of Pit's swords lacks any hitboxes. And that's the tip of the iceberg.) You see me lament the various stigma Pit's gotten... I see you and almost every other Marth player giving him a bad name at every turn. If you're upset with his representation then I don't think what you're doing is helping. Heck, if Marth got something that made him a high tier at this point I don't think people would play him because everybody thinks he is and will always be trash at this point.
The hitbox issues with Mewtwo also tend to be somewhat blown out of proportion. They may not be perfectly accurate but the hitboxes that ARE there work great once you learn them.
It's only been just recently that people on this side of the coast have started to think "hey, maybe with all the good stuff Mewtwo has he might not be at or near the bottom" but it's still a hard mentality to shake for many. @Diddy Kong even considered putting him higher on his list once recently but didn't because he thought most everyone would disagree.
A more interesting topic may be F-Airs and their usages. Off the top of my head, there are "categories" that FAirs can be listed in:
Multi-hit - ex. Ness, Rosa, Sonic, Falco
Strong but slow - ex. Mario, Peach, DK
Swipe walling - ex. Sheik, Marth, Mega
Lingering walls - Ex. G&W, Puff, Jr. sex kick - Ryu
Forward facing options are incredibly valuable for their utility. While they're not the most glorified of moves usually (unless you're sheik), it would be a more productive topic than repeatedly glorifying your own character's BAir.
There's one more category of fair that's very rare: the fast and strong (that is, strong enough to kill onstage), which includes *ahem* Zelda's, Mewtwo's, Robin's levin fair (though it could also go in swipe walling), and kind of Lucas's.
Oh, and also the super-fast fairs that just string hits. Luigi, Lucario and Sheik also.
I'm surprised people chose Doc but forgot to mention when we're talking Bairs. I'm not sure how shield safe Luigi's Bair is compared to Doc, but I'm fairly certain that it comes out on the same frame and is stronger. Probably Luigi's second best aerial (#1 being the one and only Nair)
Edit: Just looked up data for both Bairs I mentioned and Luigi's comes out slightly stronger (12 base KB with 100 KBG as opposed to Doc's which has 10 KB and 95 KBG. Not that big of a difference, but Luigi's comes out the winner here, in case anyone was dying to know the statistics).
Doc has a better shorthop height and his B-air still auto-cancels at the earliest point of the FAF. Luigi has a higher SH, slower AC (No. Not his window, but his fast fall speed), and has the same FAF as N-air (Frame 46 rather than Doc's 37). Despite Doc's inferior run speed, he can actually WoP his B-air by repeatedly SHAC-ing it IIRC.
Luigi's B-air may be stronger, but it still kills late in the middle of the stage without rage around 140%. Doc's even later, but his has better utility and versatility overall.
Certain characters have nairs and zairs for their forward facing options though. Really it depends on the character whether they'd benefit more from Sheik's fair or from Samus' zair, they're both amazing walling tools but very different in their utility.
I'm sure your categorizations weren't meant to be very thorough, but I'll still point out that multi-hit doesn't really mean anything by itself, compare ZSS and Pikachu for example. The fact that both fairs can be listed as multi-hits doesn't really describe their purpose, rather the former is a weird follow-up / interception tool and the latter is a traditional walling tool. Walling tools could be separated into linear and arced ones, and there can be linear walling tools that don't really linger for more than a few frames and are more like pokes, for example Diddy's and Palutena's fairs. Multi-hit is essentially the same as lingering, so Ness and G&W type fairs are pretty much equal in their purpose. Peach, Ganondorf, Robin and even Bowser/Charizard fairs are arced walling tools and slow/strong moves at the same time. Then there's special ones that can't really be thrown into categories like ZSS, Falcon, Mario, Link and DK, although these are generally less useful than walling tools if your character otherwise lacks them.
Your fair doesn't really matter, your horizontal options do whether it's fair, bair, nair, zair or uair/dair (there are some of those too).
Multi-hit in my head was actually FH rising FAirs like Rosa, Ness, and Fox. Which seem similar in function from a glance. But you are absolutely right in that I was just making rough nondescriptive categories to get to the root of the discussion, which is what characters have good horizontal aerial tools (that face forwards) and who abuses characters with a lack of these tools.
The facing forwards is quite important. If Mega's BAir was his FAir, he would have a much easier time getting out of strings. Same with DK.
Multi-hit in my head was actually FH rising FAirs like Rosa, Ness, and Fox. Which seem similar in function from a glance. But you are absolutely right in that I was just making rough nondescriptive categories to get to the root of the discussion, which is what characters have good horizontal aerial tools (that face forwards) and who abuses characters with a lack of these tools.
The facing forwards is quite important. If Mega's BAir was his FAir, he would have a much easier time getting out of strings. Same with DK.
Excluding heavyweights and the obvious Zelda I think the strongest back-aerial is Wii Fit Trainer with Deep Breathing. That thing does 17% fresh and isn't far from Ganondorf's back-aerial in power. I cannot get used to whatever that sweet-spot is, though.
Jigglypuff has the strongest back-aerial after Wii Fit Trainer. Robin and Falco are right behind.
You mean Kirby's? I believe it was 9 frames actually, but yea its definitely good....but its like....not anything special? Or like...its just a plain Bair that's better then most, but.....man its hard to describe it in other words.
Kirby's brawl bair was probably top 3 bairs in that game. (maybe the best idk, can't remember all of them tbh)
It was so good that the character was held back by it because it was silmutaneously his spacing and punish tool, and because of that he had no reliable kill moves (since bair had good power but it wasn't uncommon for it to take up half of the stale move queue >.>).
Like all his other moves were garbage in comparison so you had this otherwise low tier with an overpowered back air, who could never take the first stock because his kill move was too stale (so his whole gameplan revolved around camping the opponent out with a lead on their last stock)
Kirby's brawl bair was probably top 3 bairs in that game. (maybe the best idk, can't remember all of them tbh)
It was so good that the character was held back by it because it was silmutaneously his spacing and punish tool, and because of that he had no reliable kill moves (since bair had good power but it wasn't uncommon for it to take up half of the stale move queue >.>).
Like all his other moves were garbage in comparison so you had this otherwise low tier with an overpowered back air, who could never take the first stock because his kill move was too stale (so his whole gameplan revolved around camping the opponent out with a lead on their last stock)
If this is coming from your own anecdotal experience, it might be rude, but perhaps you're not good enough to play the matchup properly? If MK was so abusable by Sheik, why don't results reflect this?
Tyrant is the best US MK, I'm sure Mexico doesn't have any Sheiks on Mr. R or Vinnie's level, why do only Sheik mains get matchup inexperience as an excuse?
Because Sheik is literally everywhere and your ability to succeed competitively hinges on whether or not you can reliably beat Sheik. Meta Knight is not a popular pick nor are there many skilled players using him. There isn't a single top US player that does not know how to fight a Sheik.
Players make mistakes, the whole game is about baiting certain options from your opponent and punishing, if even the best Sheiks in the world still get beaten by MK that means MK's gameplan in the matchup works. Brawl ICs had the best MK matchup in the game (close to even) despite MK destroying nana and being hard to grab and what not. Ridiculously strong punish games DO swing matchups a lot, even against players who know how to play against the character (that's just when the mindgames begin)
Multi-hit in my head was actually FH rising FAirs like Rosa, Ness, and Fox. Which seem similar in function from a glance. But you are absolutely right in that I was just making rough nondescriptive categories to get to the root of the discussion, which is what characters have good horizontal aerial tools (that face forwards) and who abuses characters with a lack of these tools.
The facing forwards is quite important. If Mega's BAir was his FAir, he would have a much easier time getting out of strings. Same with DK.
DK can at least b-reverse cancel his punch to turn himself around quickly. I haven't learned to do this yet, but once he gets to the percent where he can give himself space with DI it becomes a lot harder to combo/gimp him because you'd have to deal with bair. Aerial upb is also like frame 3 so it functions as a combo-breaker, albeit a high commitment one.
So I'm supposed to believe that top players just aren't good enough to beat MK?
And what, the Sheiks that you play are? I don't think you understand how theory works. If your theory repeatedly contradicts the best empirical evidence we have, it's a bad theory.
Because Sheik is literally everywhere and your ability to succeed competitively hinges on whether or not you can reliably beat Sheik. Meta Knight is not a popular pick nor are there many skilled players using him. There isn't a single top US player that does not know how to fight a Sheik.
That doesn't address my point.
Mr. R goes over to Mexico after having trained against Tyrant a **** tonne. Leo gets to play against a bunch of Sheiks who aren't close to as good as the top US Sheiks (I'm sure they're good but not on the same level). How is this different? You claim that Tyrant isn't good MK matchup experience, yet the Sheiks that Leo plays against are good Sheik matchup experience? What's the difference?
And yet ironically Ice Climbers still lost said match up.
DK can at least b-reverse cancel his punch to turn himself around quickly. I haven't learned to do this yet, but once he gets to the percent where he can give himself space with DI it becomes a lot harder to combo/gimp him because you'd have to deal with bair. Aerial upb is also like frame 3 so it functions as a combo-breaker, albeit a high commitment one.
Turnaround b. Yeah. But that's not going to help you from getting strung/combo'd. You see Ally do this all the time with cape offstage. But on stage, you won't have time to turnaround without getting hit and being forced to face forwards again.
Pikachu and Toon Link have 40 frames of landing lag on their Dairs as well, but unlike Bowser's Bair and like Bowser's Dair, they have a safety net through a landing hit for Pikachu and Bowser's Dairs and a windbox for Toon Link's Dair. The next slowest would be Sonic's Dair at 38, but I don't remember if stall and fall aerials like that differ depending on how close you use it... Someone said and I don't think there was any credibility, that if Sonic used his Dair close to the ground vs. higher in the air, he'd suffer different landing lag. I don't know if any of this is true.
The issue with that kind of landing lag and ignoring auto-cancel windows since people do make mistakes and people just don't know e.g. the mass of other players who just play Smash for ***** and giggles, is that it's very, very stupid when it's on multiple aerials. Bowser has 2 aerials with 40 frames of landing lag and the lowest landing lag? Nair at 20 which used to be at 24 - the same as Fair. From lowest to highest, it's currently Nair at 20, Fair at 24, Uair at 28, and Bair and Dair at 40. That's an average of 30.4 frames of landing lag. Previously, it was an average of 31.2. Why? Oh, right, the freaking outliers of Bair and Dair that clock at almost twice the amount of Nair and Fair and a third slower than Uair. Let's also add in his 6 frame hard landing and figure that Bowser is still screwed if he auto-cancels his aerials. No character in the game has 2 aerials with massive - relative to... everyone - landing lag and no character in the game has a frame 8 jump, but him.
Well, it depends on what factors we want to take into consideration when defining what the best bair is. Like, Ganon and ZSS obviously have strong bairs but they are only active for one or two frames. DK and Falco's bairs are weaker in kill power but they are active for a longer amount of time. Which one is more important?
Correction! I'm going to sound like an *** because that's the intent, but everyone, please use the convenient service of the internet and her search engines and please learn to read basic data.
One, ZSS's Bair is frames 8-9 which is 2 active frames while Ganondorf's is frame 10-12, 3 active frames. Two, active frames don't mean **** on moves with late hits, especially if they're significantly weaker or don't last as long as other moves with lingering late hits like Mario, Yoshi, Luigi, Link, and Fox. Late hits are generally going to be weaker for almost... everyone, but Dr. Mario and even then, it's still pretty weak. Do they have utility? Sure, but they're not that good outside of like, Fox's Nair which like with almost everything he has, sets up Up Smashes... Continuing, DK's Bair is frames 7-8 clean and 9-16 late; a total of 10 active frames, but only 2 for the clean hit and 8 for the late hit. Falco's is frame 4-5 clean and 6-11 late; a total of 8 active frames, 2 clean and 6 late. Third one's on kill power... it's a bungle of craziness when you factor in damage, base knockback, knockback growth, position, etc. Major example is Falco's Bair; like Falco's other moves start out really weak and do hilarious amounts of damage at low percents, but end up doing a lot of knockback and damage at higher percents. Bair being the most notable as its laughable knockback at low percents is coupled with ludicrous damage which then ends up killing people at ~80% at the ledge or ~100% center-stage. Now, let's add some more numbers.
Character|Startup|Active|Recovery|Total Frames|Damage|Base|Growth|Hit Angle|Landing|Auto-cancel |7-8|2|14|31|13%|97|20|361|18|> 7 or < 31
(Late)|9-16|8|---|---|8%|100|10|---|---|--- |6-8|3|19|33|13.44%|10|95|---|16|> 6 or < 19
(Late)|9-13|5|---|---|7.84%|7|90|---|---|--- |4-5|2|25|37|13%|0|130|---|15|> 4 or < 15
(Late)|6-11|6|---|---|7%|30|100|---|---|--- |7-9|3|44|54|14%|30|100|---|19|> 3 or < 35 |10-12|3|23|35|17% or 16%|40|89|---|20|> 7 or < 22 |8-9|2|28|39|12% or 10%|42|98|---|11|> 4 or < 31 |6-9|3|20|29|13%, 11%, 10%, or 9%|20 or 0|96 or 100|---|9|> 5 or < 19
Fun numbers, huh? Let's give a rundown, of the characters who have the highest air speeds and ignoring Wolf since he's not in the game, it's ZSS, DK, Ike, Dr. Mario, Falco, and Ganondorf in that order. In terms of spam-ability through low total frames, it's DK, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Falco, ZSS, and Ike, but in terms of low recovery, it's DK, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Falco, ZSS, and Ike. In terms of raw damage, it's Ganondorf, Ike, Dr. Mario, DK, Falco, and ZSS. In terms of knockback... eh, this gets muddy. Overall knockback would be like... all a guess, DK or Ganondorf, Ike, ZSS?, Dr. Mario, and then Falco. Split between base and growth, it's DK, ZSS, Ganondorf, Ike, Dr. Mario, and Falco for base and Falco, Ike, ZSS, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, and DK for growth. I could go on, but what does this all really mean? Nothing really in practice. In theory? You could do a ton of stuff like I just did: who wins in raw damage, low landing lag, etc.
In practice? It's, in my opinion, (Wolf,) DK, Dr. Mario, and ZSS on one side and Ike, Ganondorf, and Falco on the other. Utility-wise, DK and Dr. Mario win hands down out of these 6 (excluding Wolf) followed by ZSS. That's what really matters: flexibility and utility. The ability to use them in combos, approaches, punishes, kills, and even setups is what makes DK, Dr. Mario, and ZSS's so damn good. Can the other 3 do the same thing? Yes, but Ike's having that much recovery means unless you know you're going to hit in the air, you're rarely going to use it that high up, Ganondorf's low mobility prevents him from abusing his already good Bair even more, and Falco's Bair is deliberately crippled by short range - it's the shortest out of the 6 and I think even shorter than Fox's despite Fox being shorter since with Down Smash and Bair, Fox's legs grow and stretch like Mario's jab - and very low base knockback to prevent it from being broken, so while it can be used to punish, combo, setup, can chain into itself at low percents, and wins in a power/speed ratio by a landslide, it has to be held back or else we'll end up with a Bair that makes Wolf, DK, Dr. Mario, Captain Falcon, or whoever else's Bair look like absolute ****.
Falco's late hit is almost negligible and is pretty much a leftover of his Melee and Brawl Bair (and Fox's Melee Bair) that was frames 4-7 clean and 8-19; a total of 16 active frames, 4 clean and 12 late. Here's the thing, the clean hit only does 10% and the late hit does 7% vs. Smash 4's 13% and 7%. According to SSBwiki since I don't know a source that says this, the growth was upped by 27 to 130 from Brawl's 103. It lost its defensive capabilities for much higher offense and in a way, what Zelda's Bair and Fair should have been if we wanted Zelda to be a monster. The only thing it kept outside of startup frame, is its total frames of 37, landing of 15, and auto-cancel window before frame 4 with the after being reduced from after 23 to after 15.
I don't know how Lucario's is getting nominated for worst. That thing's so strong it's safe on shield even at 0%, only has 15f landing lag, is hugely disjointed, and probably kills even earlier than Zelda's lightning kicks around ~100% without having to sweetspot. It can even combo off Aura Sphere charge or a backwards fair. When you have that much going for your attack, it's allowed to be the speed of a standard fsmash.
Worst bair imo (ignoring Mac) probably belongs to a character I haven't looked at if it isn't Zelda's. Is there any value to Link's frame 6, two-hit, 8% bair that doesn't kill and doesn't use his sword?
Ignoring Aura, Lucario's Bair is 11 frames slower than Ike's, does 1% more than Ike, has 4 more landing frames, and auto-cancels 5 frames later than Ike's. The reason why I nominated it is that it's just slow and while Lucario's Aura magnifies his moves immensely, it's still kind of crappy how it was tuned like that. I'd be okay if it was frame 11 instead of 16. I mean, why not? People already hate him (and everyone in the game), so why not spread the hate?
Link's Bair is probably his safest aerial to just throw out and mess with people outside of er... Nair and Zair? Its value is just pure speed, safety, and utility on a slow-moving and average to slow-hitting character. Basically, options which unlike Zelda, Link and pretty much everyone has when they use their aerials. I see it as a hitbox for the sake of a hitbox and in a way, kind of like how Dr. Mario and Wolf use their Bairs. A fast, safe, "hitbox out" option kind of like ROB and Charizard using their Nairs or Mario using Dair. Those moves don't kill, but they are good coverage options.
Kirby's brawl bair was probably top 3 bairs in that game. (maybe the best idk, can't remember all of them tbh)
It was so good that the character was held back by it because it was silmutaneously his spacing and punish tool, and because of that he had no reliable kill moves (since bair had good power but it wasn't uncommon for it to take up half of the stale move queue >.>).
Like all his other moves were garbage in comparison so you had this otherwise low tier with an overpowered back air, who could never take the first stock because his kill move was too stale (so his whole gameplan revolved around camping the opponent out with a lead on their last stock)
First he had some other moves that were also good, his bair wasn't his only one, second he wasn't low tier, he was mid.
So I agree with your first paragraph, but nothing in the second.
I honestly do not need evidence [...] She has too many advantages in the match up to offset his reward game while also having a really good reward game in this match up specifically.
Wolf's bair didn't seem that overpowering in Brawl since there was so little risk to attempt to powershield it into something like a jab or grab.
Fortunately, Ike's full hop->fast fall is only a frame or so more than his short hop, so Ike can still autocancel relatively comfortably when using his bair. It's enough to force air dodges and still have enough time to jab, grab, or at least shield, depending on when they air dodged.
Still on the topic of back airs, Samus' back air is basically ZSS' back air buffed. Sweetspot is a bit smaller, overall hitbox is better, has same KB values but does 2% more damage (and is an equal amount stronger), more range, has a lingering hitbox, and comes out just 1 frame later. Hits pretty well on rising SH, although because Samus is really floaty SHFF is hardly a thing.
Ganon's B-air is by far the best, just because of that sound effect when it hits. The sheer amount of damage that sound effect does to a person's morale is a legitimate asset.
Also, Ganon's F-air is really good. There are plenty of better F-airs, but it deals a ton of damage and it's big hitbox gives it a lot of utility. Only reason Ganon's don't use it as much really is because Ganon's U-air exists.
Before people get too down on whichever aerials of theirs suck, just remember that not all of your character's moves HAVE to be good. Sometimes it's okay for them to be situational or even inferior, because characters are allowed to have weaknesses.
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