Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[NairWizard]

When people say that Sheik is good because of f-air and Needles only I want to pull a @ Thinkaman and flip a table.

It's not just that.

Sheik has everything.

The best initial dash in the game (8 frames from start to finish), including the most options out of dash (reverse needle, hops, tilts), one of the best crawls in the game, fastfaller tomahawk mixups just like Fox and Falcon but even better because Sheik's SH game is so good, a fast n-air that autocancels 1 frame after the animation, an invincible get-out-of-disadvantage-for-free card in Bouncing Fish, an oppressive jab and dash attack with suitably crazy range, 50:50 KO mixups at multiple percents off of multiple throws to mess up DI, an f-tilt that serves as an anti-air and combo starter, the ability to dish out like 20% off of a simple f-throw -> Bouncing Fish conversion, air/walk/run speeds that most characters would kill for, one of the best recoveries in the game, aerial hard-read options that other characters of her archetype don't have (Pikachu only gets one with HSB, Sheik has TWO--Bouncing Fish and Vanish...)...

Sheik is ridiculous in every conceivable parameter except that she's susceptible to true combos. Nerfing her KO power toned her down but didn't do anything to diminish the gap between her vast kit of oppressive options in neutral and literally every other character's moveset.

 

[Gawain]

When people say that Sheik is good because of f-air and Needles only I want to pull a @ Thinkaman and flip a table.

It's not just that.

Sheik has everything.

The best initial dash in the game (8 frames from start to finish), including the most options out of dash (reverse needle, hops, tilts), one of the best crawls in the game, fastfaller tomahawk mixups just like Fox and Falcon but even better because Sheik's SH game is so good, a fast n-air that autocancels 1 frame after the animation, an invincible get-out-of-disadvantage-for-free card in Bouncing Fish, an oppressive jab and dash attack with suitably crazy range, 50:50 KO mixups at multiple percents off of multiple throws to mess up DI, an f-tilt that serves as an anti-air and combo starter, the ability to dish out like 20% off of a simple f-throw -> Bouncing Fish conversion, air/walk/run speeds that most characters would kill for, one of the best recoveries in the game, aerial hard-read options that other characters of her archetype don't have (Pikachu only gets one with HSB, Sheik has TWO--Bouncing Fish and Vanish...)...

Sheik is ridiculous in every conceivable parameter except that she's susceptible to true combos. Nerfing her KO power toned her down but didn't do anything to diminish the gap between her vast kit of oppressive options in neutral and literally every other character's moveset.

This is the truth of it. Sheiks sheer number of tools IN NEUTRAL is probably the most noticeable positive trait, but it never was all she had.

To be honest I don't even know how you would tone her down without really ruining her. You can't nerf her KO power anymore. That's not the right choice. Increasing the CD of some moves will just make her default to others.

Honestly I think things would be better if everyone had multiple ko setups from multiple throws (not actual kill throws though those are cancer imo). Everyone needs to be able to threaten a shield majorly at 120ish like Sheik can.

 

[Jehtt]

To be honest I don't even know how you would tone her down without really ruining her. You can't nerf her KO power anymore. That's not the right choice. Increasing the CD of some moves will just make her default to others.

2 things I'd do:
1) Decrease the knockback of needles. A full-stage, un-reactable projectile shouldn't also pop you up into the air.
2) Remove the invincibility on her recovery. That has no reason to be there.

 

[Mister M]

In my opinion (don't if it's worth nuch) bouncing fish is the problem.

It gives her in all her states (neutral, advantage and disadvantage) an option or options effective enough to push her into a stand alone tier. The killer thing is, if she wiffs it, the repocussions are minimal. She can bang it out... for free at any point in the match and be good for it. At worst, may ddrop her advantage state back to neutral, but that is obviously not a problem.

And the hit box is so damn big all you can do is let her.

 

[HoSmash4]

In my opinion (don't if it's worth nuch) bouncing fish is the problem.

It gives her in all her states (neutral, advantage and disadvantage) an option or options effective enough to push her into a stand alone tier. The killer thing is, if she wiffs it, the repocussions are minimal. She can bang it out... for free at any point in the match and be good for it. At worst, may ddrop her advantage state back to neutral, but that is obviously not a problem.

And the hit box is so damn big all you can do is let her.

Bouncing fish is what makes sheik so fun. If we're talking about nerfs, only needles really need nerfs. Either reduce it's range or give it more lag at the end

 

[Teshie U]

This isn't like pre patch Diddy and his magical Upair that is also an upsmash and a nair and a dair and a fair and a bair etc.

There isnt just 1 thing majorly wrong with sheik.

Its dumb that bouncing fish has a massive disjoint, invincibility and low lag on whiff. Nerfing the power proved that there were so many other things wrong with it.

Removing the invincibility and disjoint still would let her combo into it, but it wouldn't be so useful for fishing (no pun intended).




What do we think about Mii Brawler? I think he is a bit underrated tbh. Recovery is pretty bad, but this character sure can move, and thats the most important thing in most matchups.

 

[Rashyboy05]

What do we think about Mii Brawler? I think he is a bit underrated tbh. Recovery is pretty bad, but this character sure can move, and thats the most important thing in most matchups.

Underrated? People and their mother has been talking about how supposedly "broken" Mii Brawler(or rather, his small incarnate) is. Mostly thanks to Helicopter Kick.

 

[Megamang]

Just a recent thought I had about balancing shiek.

I think making bouncing fish wayyyy laggier on miss would be a good start. Bad enough that I can charge a smash and kill her; essentially so she doesn't have a get out of disadvantage free move. Its silly, her character stats let her get combo'd a little, but you can't corner her like most other characters because she just bounces away. Landing traps are supposed to be good on fastfallers, as their situation is more urgent than floaties. Its the trade off for being vertically mobile... unless your name is shiek.

 

[Nobie]

If we're complaining about Bouncing Fish, at least I find it to have a reasonable cooldown on whiff.

What gets me about that move, though, is the DISTANCE IT TRAVELS. Like, how do you get a move that good that also goes like over half of Final Destination? Mega Man's full charge shot barely goes that far!

Speaking of weaknesses, I feel like Diddy Kong is finally in a place where his poor horizontal aerial mobility outside of Monkey Flip is finally showing up as a weakness. It used to be that Diddy Kong was so strong in so many different ways that having one of the worst air speeds in the game didn't really matter, but now opponents are living longer and getting stronger, and having burned your Monkey Flip or needing it to just barely get away is an issue that Diddy players have to overcome (not that they haven't of course). I know I mentioned this before in the same breath as Zero wavebouncing his banana peels, but I really think it's a factor in matches now.

Another thing I've been wondering lately is... are 1111 Miis really that bad? Like, putting aside all of the arguments as to what makes Miis unique, and how 1111 aren't ideal movesets because you can't Helipcopter Kick someone to death at 60%, I just wonder if the 1111 sets are really all that bad. Sure, they're not fantastic, but with all of the buffs that the Miis have received over multiple patches (especially Swordfighter), they don't seem especially like they're that down and out without their best custom moves.

Then again, I don't think I've seen enough of 1111 Brawler or Gunner in action, and Trela was the only one sporting 1111 Swordfighter.

 

[Megamang]

Most scenes that would limit Mii's to 1111 are probably forcing default/medium size, so thats another limit. Every tournament I have been to with 1111 enforced has had no Mii players that ive come across =[

 

[Rashyboy05]

Another thing I've been wondering lately is... are 1111 Miis really that bad? Like, putting aside all of the arguments as to what makes Miis unique, and how 1111 aren't ideal movesets because you can't Helipcopter Kick someone to death at 60%, I just wonder if the 1111 sets are really all that bad. Sure, they're not fantastic, but with all of the buffs that the Miis have received over multiple patches (especially Swordfighter), they don't seem especially like they're that down and out without their best custom moves.

Imo, 1111 miis feels unfun to play as. The Miis are very reliant on their specials as their normals kinda suck. 1111 Brawler will miss out on Helicopter Kick and Feint Jump. 1111 Mii Gunner will miss out on Grenade Launch and Bomb Drop. I'm not sure how Mii Gunner mains feel about Cannon Uppercut but I think it's a good kill move. Finally, Mii Swordfighter will miss out on Shuriken of Light, Chakram, Skyward Slash Dash/Hero's Spin and Power Thrust.

 

[Rizen]

Bottom 18 is highly underestimating Link to a whole new degree. He's more along the lines of between the 20 to 30 spots, but nowhere near the bottom 20 characters. I just cannot even see it happening with him; although he does need the right kind of person to make people know he's not that bad, but thanks to the Smash Paradigm about Link being low tier, it'll be hard to even see that happening.

First off, his slow frame data is nothing when most of his attacks come out relatively fast, and the hitboxes linger. Second, he has a huge disjoint with his sword, and his D-Throw is pretty amazing with combo setups. His grab is actually the fastest tether grab in the game, no less, and has absurd range to boot. And complex set ups aren't necessarily a bad thing, because Link can use these setups to make it random on what he's going to dish out next.

Then there's his great ability to gimp and edge-guard opponents with N-Air, him having a U-Air that will linger so long it will hit an air dodge character, his U-Smash and D-Smash being able to have decent kill percents, and Link benefiting from Rage.

Link is that character who benefits from Rage because his combo ability is not harmed by the knockback buffs. It's actually better for Link to have Rage because he can really combo better from D-Throw > U-Smash on various characters. And with the increase in buffs and hitstun on opponents, Link's able to combo even better with any upwards attack, such as U-Smash and U-Air.

He's a complex character at first, but when you get to learn and really, really play him, Link would not seem bottom 18, nor bottom 25, but rather, in the top 20 to 30 range (30 not being a part of the bottom 25).

I guess I could see Link in the Bowser/Mac tier: 35≈36.


Link's problem is he's a spacing character who's too slow and immobile to space against good characters. Toon Link has much better mobility and that allows him to get more out of his projectiles. Link's bad air speed and slow jump squat (frame 7) hinder his combo potential from Dthrow and bombs so he only gets them at certain %s or with setups like throwing a bomb down>Uair, footstool>FF Nair lock, etc. Characters DI-ing away from Link makes follow ups difficult at medium+ %s.

Link's slow frame data hurts his CQC and good characters can rush down Link before he can get much of a projectile defense up. Link's fastest ground attack is jab at frame 7, aerials are Bair frame 6, Nair frame 7 and his grab is frame 12. Most opponents can get in Link's happy bubble and wreck him.
Link wouldn't take too much to fix, a few simple frame buffs like a frame 5 jab, 5 jump squat, and slightly better mobility etc would do him wonders.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Link
Characters like Ike have a frame 4 jab and 7 grab, that really helps against speedsters like Fox. Link's bad mobility and lack of a good GTFO move lessen the effectiveness of his reach and zoning.
/my 2 cents

 

[Pazx]

1111 Guest Miis are all bottom half of the cast IMO. Brawler might be bottom 10, I don't think anybody's explored the character outside of Heli Kick and Piston Punch but despite that I think he'd still turn out to be hot garbage. He loses everything without his desired customs, somehow even his recovery is worse. His mobility is still decent obviously and he's got some things going for him but he struggles to get kills outside of pretty significant reads. 1111 Brawler is probably the only character in this game that feels like a proper fragile speedster to me in that he's fast and weak. The other two Miis still have somewhat functional gameplans with 1111 sets but they are undeniably worse than they would be with any customs and any size.

 

[Megamang]

The most recent tech of the week, hitstun option select, has some really cool applications for link.

For those new to FG terms, an Option Select (OS from here out, and in the video title if you wanna find it) is a single input or series of inputs which will do different things based on what happens in game, which allows you to cover options faster than human reaction time.

Basically, link can do a single input which "flowcharts" as follows.

1) Short hop Bair

2a) on hit, confirms into up B

2b) on miss or PS, dash away.

Super useful!

Anyways, I think link's much scarier grab and weight make him more of a threat. TL Bombs are scary, but being unable to contest shield efficiently gives your opponent a pretty easy and reliable gameplan unless you go above and beyond.

And getting b-throw killed shouldn't happen to people as often as it does, and I believe its from MU inexperience. Also, link's better grab can lead to pretty nice landing trap situations, although YL is also pretty good at that with dashing usmash. Forcing a trade with link by dash attacking their landing frames is pretty nice, and if they dont wanna land, drifting offstage/towards the blastzones is a real risk against link... Unless you can safely zone or deal with him from this position, but if your character can do that it can probably do it to TL pretty easily.


How do their zairs compare? I don't use TL much.


EDIT: Also, link's huge differential on regular and fastfall speed, vs TL's paltry change (IIRC, it was nothing in brawl... I think) is a really nice, melee-falco-esque type of mobility that is great for baiting reactions and punishing with aerials, especially that scurry disjointed dair.

 

[Teshie U]

Underrated? People and their mother has been talking about how supposedly "broken" Mii Brawler(or rather, his small incarnate) is. Mostly thanks to Helicopter Kick.

Sorry I meant default.

I personally love playing as 1111 Mii Brawler. I don't understand why his Uair was nerfed (maybe there is some secret combo potential to it now), so its harder to kill (was already super hard), but he is a fun speedster with quick moves and very cool strings he can pull off. He is hurting for recover mixups with default, but i think his on stage game works if he is patient.

Gunner would be in the same boat imo, if not for being able to reverse Fair for recovery.

I think Swordsman has 2-3 of his ideal specials anyway.

 

[Wintropy]

I think the Miis' frame data is just too weak to work in a default size / weight, 1111 setting. With customs, you can at least embellish it with decent options to cover your bases, but otherwise it's just kind of a middle-of-the-road character with no worthy strengths.

Default Mii is just tepid across the board. There isn't any real reason to play them if you can't make use of their main pull, i.e. the ability to customise their sets. I play default size / weight Miis, which isn't optimal, but the customs open up new avenues to explore their full potential. It's just a universal distinction shared by each of the different classes, in my opinion.

In other words, I don't think default Mii is terrible, I just can't think of a reason why you'd use them over other characters with more definite potential.

Just my two cents, heh~

 

[Thinkaman]

We live in a wonderland nonsense world where Miis can't be allowed customs because other characters have them, and other characters can't be allowed customs because DLC characters don't have them.

 

[TriTails]

Its the trade off for being vertically mobile... unless your name is shiek.

Searching for the requested query...

FATAL ERROR. CHARACTER WHO GOES BY THE NAME 'SHIEK' WAS NOT FOUND. WINDOWS RECOVERY AND FIREWALL INITIALIZED. TERMINATE THE VIRUS ONCE AND FOR ALL.

Anyhoo, I agree with Nobie there. You can even alter the distance it goes, and at full push it goes to like half of FD... just... wtf.

I understand on it being important in her recovery and burst mobility, but the move actually travels fairly fast with a meaty htbox, on whiff it's punushable but the window is fairly short, while also having a hitbox size of the sun (I've gotten BFs I haven't earned) and has invincibility...

Better replace Green Missile with this move ASAP.

 

[Rashyboy05]

We live in a wonderland nonsense world where Miis can't be allowed customs because other characters have them, and other characters can't be allowed customs because DLC characters don't have them.

Doesn't Japan and Europe allow Miis to use their customs in custom-off settings?

 

[Illuminose]

People need to learn to spot dodge bouncing fish on reaction. There's very clear animation/sound cues and the move comes out on frame 17. People can already shield on reaction, but spot dodging gives so much reward because bouncing fish has a ton of lag on whiff, allowing you to punish with almost anything. Everything else with bouncing fish tends to be true combos or maybe an air dodge read toward the edge of the stage at high percent, both positions that are mostly unavoidable unless you actually make bouncing fish slower (which is unnecessary).

Oh, and the thing with Sheik killing. It's not that she completely lacks kill options because the down throw 50/50 is there and hella good, but it's also one of those things that people can get a lot better at dealing with. DI away and mixing up air dodge timing makes it really difficult for Sheik. You can also drift during the air dodge, which can make positioning or even connecting a vanish read really hard, especially for characters with good air speed. If you get hit by a forward air, you are fine. You will not die to a forward air until higher percents. At certain percents (generally pre-110/115% though it highly depends on the character as heavies will live longer and light characters will live a bit shorter), it's actually better to just take the up air instead of air dodging. This is because vanish will kill you earlier than up air. Try to make it as difficult for Sheik as possible. Sometimes I just see people air dodge with no DI the same way every time and it kinda hurts because it's such an easy punish. Every Sheik on this planet is waiting for an easy air dodge punish. You have to try a little harder than that to succeed.

The other thing is...down throw 50/50s stop working past a certain point, and then Sheik really struggles to kill. This is because things like forward air, back air, etc aren't really that strong (they require being hit by the ledge to kill basically). This is when you see people living to 170%, 180%, 200% against Sheik. There's a certain point where Sheik can't really kill you.

There are...other options. Soft nair -> bouncing fish, tipper up smash on a read, forward smash kinda, fthrow/dthrow -> bouncing fish air dodge read, ftilt -> up air or vanish air dodge read, and tipper dtilt to up air come to mind. The thing is that you can't really rely on her setups in a lot of cases, and she doesn't kill you that early unless she gets a random tipper up smash. Even if you fall to the down throw, you're still living long enough with some rage to make scary stuff happen vs Sheik.

Even with down throw shenanigans, Sheik can't kill you early, unless you get gimped or hit by a crazy tipper up smash read.

 

[Ghostbone]

People need to learn to spot dodge bouncing fish on reaction. There's very clear animation/sound cues and the move comes out on frame 17. People can already shield on reaction, but spot dodging gives so much reward because bouncing fish has a ton of lag on whiff, allowing you to punish with almost anything.

Well I mean a lot of the time you can't hear it in a tournament environment unfortunately (and you probably can't react to it visually fast enough, gone into detail about this with ZSS's grab before). Plus if you spot dodge, she can probably hit you out of the end of it (17 frames inclusive between the earliest the bouncing fish hitbox can come out and the latest it can end)

 

[Illuminose]

Well I mean a lot of the time you can't hear it in a tournament environment unfortunately (and you probably can't react to it visually fast enough, gone into detail about this with ZSS's grab before). Plus if you spot dodge, she can probably hit you out of the end of it (17 frames inclusive between the earliest the bouncing fish hitbox can come out and the latest it can end)

I mean she technically can hit your spot dodge, but usually you want to go for the fastest bouncing fish because doing anything slower gives a ridiculous amount of time to react in most cases (it's only really used for air dodge reads).

 

[Trifroze]

People need to learn to spot dodge bouncing fish on reaction. There's very clear animation/sound cues and the move comes out on frame 17. People can already shield on reaction, but spot dodging gives so much reward because bouncing fish has a ton of lag on whiff, allowing you to punish with almost anything. Everything else with bouncing fish tends to be true combos or maybe an air dodge read toward the edge of the stage at high percent, both positions that are mostly unavoidable unless you actually make bouncing fish slower (which is unnecessary).

I'd argue 17 frames is still too fast to react to. Not in a vacuum of course, but Smash 4's neutral is too fast paced with too many things happening for you to almost ever be ready for something like that. Most characters also have 3 frames of startup on spotdodge and the game has a frame or so of input delay, so you'd have to react in 13 frames against a character who can do basically anything to you in neutral. If the startup was increased to 20-21 then it'd be a lot more realistic.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Man look how fast we went from meaningful discussion to complaining about Shiek again.
The Tl;dr is the Shiek is good, will more than likely be nerfed at some point, and if not it's nbd because (this may come as a shock to many of you) Melee didn't have patches and it turned out great. In fact, it's probably the most unbalanced game I've ever played. So how did people deal with Fox? Did they suggest how to nerf shine? Did they cry all day because of Uthrow Uair until it was removed? Did they wait until a patch comes out that will nerf his mobility? Did they all discuss how to tone down his neutral? No! They do their best at exploiting what are probably his only 2 weaknesses: getting combod/chaingrabbed, and gimping his recovery. Is he still the most oppressive character in the game, winning tourneys left and right with Fox dittos everywhere? Yes. But people learned to accept it and deal with it. We can do the same, but we just choose not to.

 

[TurboLink]

Man look how fast we went from meaningful discussion to complaining about Shiek again.
The Tl;dr is the Shiek is good, will more than likely be nerfed at some point, and if not it's nbd because (this may come as a shock to many of you) Melee didn't have patches and it turned out great. In fact, it's probably the most unbalanced game I've ever played. So how did people deal with Fox? Did they suggest how to nerf shine? Did they cry all day because of Uthrow Uair until it was removed? Did they wait until a patch comes out that will nerf his mobility? Did they all discuss how to tone down his neutral? No! They do their best at exploiting what are probably his only 2 weaknesses: getting combod/chaingrabbed, and gimping his recovery. Is he still the most oppressive character in the game, winning tourneys left and right with Fox dittos everywhere? Yes. But people learned to accept it and deal with it. We can do the same, but we just choose not to.

How is 6 out of 26 characters being viable great?

Of course people are going to choose not to when this game gets balance patches and Melee does not. -.-

You really want people to settle for less?

You want Smash 4 to become no items, Smashville, Sheik only?

 

[Trifroze]

Man look how fast we went from meaningful discussion to complaining about Shiek again.
The Tl;dr is the Shiek is good, will more than likely be nerfed at some point, and if not it's nbd because (this may come as a shock to many of you) Melee didn't have patches and it turned out great. In fact, it's probably the most unbalanced game I've ever played. So how did people deal with Fox? Did they suggest how to nerf shine? Did they cry all day because of Uthrow Uair until it was removed? Did they wait until a patch comes out that will nerf his mobility? Did they all discuss how to tone down his neutral? No! They do their best at exploiting what are probably his only 2 weaknesses: getting combod/chaingrabbed, and gimping his recovery. Is he still the most oppressive character in the game, winning tourneys left and right with Fox dittos everywhere? Yes. But people learned to accept it and deal with it. We can do the same, but we just choose not to.

"people had to deal with terrible balance in the past therefore we should do the same despite having the tools to actually fix it"

 

[Thinkaman]

"people had to deal with terrible balance in the past therefore we should do the same despite having the tools to actually fix it"

I don't think that's what he was saying, move of a "We get it, the game has a best character, can we just move on, urg."

Edit:
"But Needles is oppressive and Bouncing Fish--"

Can we get a show of hands of who doesn't think Sheik should get small nerfs? No one? Great, let's move on.

 

[Ray-Den]

It would be fine if Sheik had any weaknesses to exploit.
In neutral shes the best, she can escape combos easily, off-stage, she is basically untouchable etc.

Her only weaknesses on paper are:

1. She is a light character. oh wait...no. She is actually the heaviest of the light-weights !

2. She has trouble killing? eh no. plenty of kill-setups

She is basically a perfect character.

 

[Nobie]

Sheik has a fairly susceptible fall speed. Not as much as other characters but it's something that can be and has been exploited.

Sheik's kill setups exist, but they often still require Sheik to bring characters to higher percents compared to other characters.

Just stop bringing her to Smashville, geez.

 

[Illuminose]

It would be fine if Sheik had any weaknesses to exploit.
In neutral shes the best, she can escape combos easily, off-stage, she is basically untouchable etc.

Her only weaknesses on paper are:

1. She is a light character. oh wait...no. She is actually the heaviest of the light-weights !

2. She has trouble killing? eh no. plenty of kill-setups

She is basically a perfect character.

Sheik can't escape combos easily...she can escape juggles easily (however if you cover the bouncing fish then she's in for some trouble trying to get down). In fact, Sheik is a character that's very susceptible to extended combos due to her fall speed. Also it's super easy to catch the one frame on Sheik's vanish recovery ledge snap because it has a set timing, you just need to learn it.

Not saying that Sheik isn't amazing, but those two points aren't exactly correct.

 

[K3H]

Man look how fast we went from meaningful discussion to complaining about Shiek again.
The Tl;dr is the Shiek is good, will more than likely be nerfed at some point, and if not it's nbd because (this may come as a shock to many of you) Melee didn't have patches and it turned out great. In fact, it's probably the most unbalanced game I've ever played. So how did people deal with Fox? Did they suggest how to nerf shine? Did they cry all day because of Uthrow Uair until it was removed? Did they wait until a patch comes out that will nerf his mobility? Did they all discuss how to tone down his neutral? No! They do their best at exploiting what are probably his only 2 weaknesses: getting combod/chaingrabbed, and gimping his recovery. Is he still the most oppressive character in the game, winning tourneys left and right with Fox dittos everywhere? Yes. But people learned to accept it and deal with it. We can do the same, but we just choose not to.

True, but what weaknesses does Sheik have? And of those limited weaknesses, who can even hope to exploit them?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

True, but what weaknesses does Sheik have? And of those limited weaknesses, who can even hope to exploit them?

 

[Ray-Den]

Sheik can't escape combos easily...she can escape juggles easily (however if you cover the bouncing fish then she's in for some trouble trying to get down). In fact, Sheik is a character that's very susceptible to extended combos due to her fall speed. Also it's super easy to catch the one frame on Sheik's vanish recovery ledge snap because it has a set timing, you just need to learn it.

Not saying that Sheik isn't amazing, but those two points aren't exactly correct.

Sheik might get a few hits more than other characters, but first you have to take her in such a sitiuation. And this is really hard with such a strong neutral

I think in the future when the meta evolves, sheik players might start to use their recovery properly. You know, when you space your recovery as sheik right, the 2nd hitbox of vanish will come out and you still grab the ledge? Then its not super easy anymore unfortunately

 

[Djent]

Welp, glad I went to bed.

Doubles ended up being cancelled. Feels so good to lay down.

— AZUMARILL KING (@Vinnie_iwnl) September 6, 2015

Anyway, I've also been thinking that probably goes at least even with / for the same reasons he performs not-terribly against Sheik. The difference is that these two actually struggle to kill him, and you can't really argue that they're more oppressive than our ninja overlords at low-to-mid %s. If I'm right about this, then Lucario may actually have some valuable niche beyond mid-level Sheikstomping gimmick.

Anecdotally, Kamicario took Ally and Zenyou to last game at LTC3. Something to look into for those of you who actually understand the character.

 

[Asdioh]

As trifroze said, spotdodgingg BF is great, but only if you know ahead of time that's what sheik will choose. She has so many good options in neutral that you have to expect fair, needles, grab, BF, etc. It's easier to just sit in shield once you see it statt up, because the initial vulnerability frames on spotdodge can screw you over. So BF becomes safer than it should.

 

[Radical Larry]

???

The reason I say Link's moves are relatively fast is not because of Frame Data, but rather perception and reaction of a person. A character like Ganondorf is perceived to have a slow U-Smash coming out, but overall a fast U-Smash if you add IASA frames and can interrupt U-Smash at Frame 23; I've explained before that Ganondorf's IASA frames on U-Smash are insane and make his U-Smash be faster than an up tilt from start to finish.

That is perception of a character and their frame data to compare. As for Link on this, one would think he's slow with frame data, while another may argue that frame data might not matter, and that it is the perception of someone that matters, and then their reaction time within. Link's B-Air is extremely fast coming out and also has IASA frames, and it's got frame data and perception to back it up. On something like Link's F-Tilt, the frame data is not as favorable for it, but a person's perception would contradict it, as a person would think it's actually a bit quick.

So to conclude, frame data is only numbers a person has to abide by to know their opponent and learn which attack might be slow or fast. Perception however, is the ability to see the attacks coming out fast or slow depending on which character you are playing. Reaction is ensuring your opponent can get hit by said attack, grab or special.

True, but what weaknesses does Sheik have? And of those limited weaknesses, who can even hope to exploit them?

As for this argument, here are a few points I'd hit:

-Sheik has the weakest attacks of the entire game, no, the entire series.
-Sheik's F-Smash is actually punishable by tether grabbers, due to its relatively slow speed. And it's easily punishable by attacks.
-Sheik's D-Smash needs spacing, or it too will be punished.
-Her aerials are actually punishable on block, but the timing is very strict for a punishing move (Like Link's OoS Spin Attack) or grab (Like Fox's Grab). This is prominent on D-Air, N-Air and B-Air especially, but the latter would be more punished by Link's grab.
-Fast falling speed allows for easy combos, something she can't escape if the opponent reads her better than a pantheon of books.
-Bouncing Fish can be punished by disjointed attacks, smashes and from under or in front.
-Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Bouncing Fish cannot be used again in mid-air after being hit, hindering her recovery.
-Burst Grenade is a useless attack, because of its predictable nature and slow speed. Another thing you can punish on Sheik, with projectiles this time.
-Rage will lessen her combo capability horribly, even if it gives her more knockback to attacks.

But to exploit them, one would need a great reaction time to actually punish her, and one would need a disjointed character or a really powerful character to actually exploit these to their full potential.

I'll ask this question now; who here thinks, or still thinks, that Rosalina is the best character in the game? If you think she is, tell me why. If you don't, tell me why.

 

[Djent]

So I've been combing Twitter/Challonge for other insights into the final Paragon bracket (which still isn't updated ):

Spoiler

So i almost lost to Big D, a Canadian D3, in my WF of pools. It was so scary. We good tho

— ESAM (Stride Esports) (@imESAM) September 6, 2015

The "death pool" (D6 slot maybe? ) was won by Shaky and Cacogen.

Larry and VoiD through without incident.

 

[Rizen]

A character like Ganondorf is perceived to have a slow U-Smash coming out, but overall a fast U-Smash if you add IASA frames and can interrupt U-Smash at Frame 23

The IASA aka FAF on Usmash is frame 42.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ganondorf

There's really no way Ganon and Link are fast but we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Charoite]

Why you guys insist in discussing how to balance sheik, this is not the place for that, there are more important things to discuss considering that we have a tournament, we know that sheik is the best character, wait for a patch, is not like we didn't know sheik was the best character recently, or that we didn't discuss what make sheik the best character, but i think we can wait for the next patch, to retake that problem.

 

[bc1910]

Sheik being "easy to combo" is barely a weakness because being "easy to combo" just doesn't matter that much in this game. It's not like Melee, where Fox and Falco are so easy to combo that it's the only thing keeping the MU against them winnable for some characters. In Sm4sh we have low hitstun, low gravity and a really good airdodge. No matter who you're using, it's not really that hard to get out of combos. Sheik has an amazing disadvantage state anyway.

Moving away from the Sheik discussion, @istudying just got 1st with at Avalon X, a 72-man national in the Netherlands. Bracket and info here. He also got 1st in doubles.