Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[FullMoon]

Something that I was wondering, if you couldn't buffer ledge options and so ledge trumps became a more common sight, would that be better or worse for the game overall?

 

[Vermanubis]

I know I'm making a post featuring Ganon for the thirteen-millionth time, but I really do think this match shows off some really great usage of ledge trumping in Game 1.

1:12 Vermanubis trumps Kimidori and goes for a backwards Wizkick Spike. Had Kimidori not reacted fast enough, he would've died at 27%.

3:02 Vermanubis notices Kimidori buffering out of his trumps. Shortly afterward, he fakes out a trump and instead does a pivot F-tilt, killing Kimidori.

And this is Ganon too, the guy that commits to everything and can't cover multiple options well. I'd imagine faster characters would be able to use this even better. Ledge trumping isn't some all-powerful harbinger of doom, but to say it's purely opportunistic seems extreme.

@Blobface 's right. The principle I spoke of earlier, by whose virtue Ganon <can> succeed, is the same one governing trumps, and that's that there aren't any universally inclusive decisions which satisfy all possibilities. In other words, in the case of trumping, you're obliged to commit to something, lest you get trumped or, if you buffer, put yourself in a bad situation. Trumping itself may have "first order" issues in that which in order to be made useful, some secondary planning has to happen (baits, etc.), but the threat of trump itself is that which forces a commitment. Just planting that in your opponent's head gives you tremendous control of the ledge, especially as Ganon.

In essence, I don't think it's entirely accurate to say trumping's irrelevant. Anything which forces exclusive decision-making (which trumping does) is worth investing serious thought into. Any way you look at it, when you're on the ledge and someone's running towards you, thanks to trumping, you're gonna make a decision -- probably quickly -- and that decision can be manipulated and capitalized upon.

 

[meleebrawler]

Something that I was wondering, if you couldn't buffer ledge options and so ledge trumps became a more common sight, would that be better or worse for the game overall?

Well, we've managed with edge-hogging up until now so how bad could it be?

 

[Mario766]

Ontario doesn't travel, that's ths thing. Poke I think went to SSC and TBH5 but choked out of both of them, and that's it. Trust me when I say we are good, we just gotta hope Poke doesn't choke lol.

Also, our 3rd in the PR won a Canadian national, and doesn't have a wii u. V115 could be a real threat once he gets one. He is one of the top brawl players tho.

He won't. He doesn't like Smash 4, he only would play Doubles. Straight from the man himself.

 

[Nobie]

@Blobface 's right. The principle I spoke of earlier, by whose virtue Ganon <can> succeed, is the same one governing trumps, and that's that there aren't any universally inclusive decisions which satisfy all possibilities. In other words, in the case of trumping, you're obliged to commit to something, lest you get trumped or, if you buffer, put yourself in a bad situation. Trumping itself may have "first order" issues in that which in order to be made useful, some secondary planning has to happen (baits, etc.), but the threat of trump itself is that which forces a commitment. Just planting that in your opponent's head gives you tremendous control of the ledge, especially as Ganon.

In essence, I don't think it's entirely accurate to say trumping's irrelevant. Anything which forces exclusive decision-making (which trumping does) is worth investing serious thought into. Any way you look at it, when you're on the ledge and someone's running towards you, thanks to trumping, you're gonna make a decision -- probably quickly -- and that decision can be manipulated and capitalized upon.

I meant to say this about a previous comment, but what you said about threatening with Ganondorf by just slowly advancing and creating an imposing figure reminds me a lot of how Ganondorf behaves in the final battle of Twilight Princess. He just slowly walks towards you ready to mess you up.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

He won't. He doesn't like Smash 4, he only would play Doubles. Straight from the man himself.

That's what I mean. If he would, he would be become a real threat.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

90% of you live within 100 miles of the U.S border. You can't be that spread out, you aren't North-South XD

Yes but then you need passports. If you don't already have one, that can take up to a year and isn't exactly free to get. It also adds extra travel time going back and forth across the busy border crossings, or driving out and around to less used ones.

And of course, as simple as a DUI could prevent you from being able to cross the border. Still doesn't always work out well for trying to get out there more.

(If you were just talking about within Canada: those cities I mentioned are the only large ones we have. Nova Scotia isn't even a city just to make the list even smaller. So that many cities, spread out over the entire length of the country. And Edmonton is more than 100 miles away from the border. It would be like trying to make a PR using only Sacramento, Phoenix, Houston, Dallas, and Orlando. And expecting the people in those cities to travel out to other areas.)

 

[FlynnCL]

Many of Mewtwo's frame data adjustments appear to be standardization based on range. Similar to how Donkey Kong had his forward tilt IASA brought closer to other heavyweights or how R.O.B's forward tilt had its range cut back significantly.

Jab is active 2 frames earlier and is actionable 4 frames earlier, yet forward tilt is active 4 frames later and actionable 6 frames later.

A lot of Smash 4's Mewtwo's issues exist because the development team were so accurate to its Melee iteration.

Up-aerial is only active for 3 frames and has no reach in-front of him. Neutral-aerial and forward-aerial have very little range.

Up-tilt's over-the-top amount of hitboxes is because they were like that in Melee, they even had the same trajectories. Down throw has the same trajectory and knockback values, and while they both have too much ending lag to reliably combo non-fast fallers, Smash 4's down-throw still saw 3 frames added to it.

They've kept Mewtwo so close to Melee yet gave him some extreme nerfs to his weight which is just very interesting to me. The loss of a damaging charging Shadow Ball is one decision I really don't understand, though.

Oh yeah, and his back-aerial was fine. Why'd they "upair-ify" his back-aerial for Smash 4?

 

[Nobie]

I'm pretty sure that Mewtwo's air dodge was designed to work in tandem with his second jump. If you air dodge at the beginning of the second jump, Mewtwo will re-emerge close to its Apex.

 

[DR()BC]

Just a few General questions I have for this list (no particular order)

Yoshi I understand is extremely good and ive experienced this first hand
super armor, good spacing and is a good all around character but...
what stunts his growth in the meta as a character? what are his limits? and is that why he isn't played?

next one

Coming from a meta knight main I know his exact weaknesses, MK is at the brink of viable but his glaring weaknesses are his priority and how light he is.
Too many times ive died to ZSS not from her Up-B but a single Up-air around 80-100 depending on the stage, but around 110-120 you might as well give up.
Range isn't an issue for MK
So... through the eyes of players that don't play MK... why is he or why isn't he so high? Im really curious.


Roy is good.
whenever someone says "all i want is a character with good tools, good grabs, good spacing and good kill power" I recommend Roy.
you can argue that his recovery is sub par and several of his moves are relatively useless but, his neutral and the ability to wall opponents out is awsome.
this character is extremely viable, but with a few weaknesses. (amiright?)
Roy mains, what do you think?


Ryu is top 5, if not higher. but his limits are that his hurt boxes are extremely precise and he is hard to learn.
nuff said.


Heavy, Good projectiles, awesome range, great recovery, but sub par combo ability
*cough* *cough*
*cough**cough*
They all do the same thing, pick your flavor.

/
Best projectiles in the game, Kills REALLY early, Self healing, Can camp for days, but has fantastic throws and frame data.
limits are that their hurt boxes are extremely precise and is hard to learn (just copied and pasted that last sentence from the Ryu panel, but it still works)
Wii Fit mains, if you exist...
Please go to tournaments, do you like need a ride or something? I can buy you a bus pass idk...

 

[Djmarcus44]

With charge shot, Gunner may have a lot better time admittedly. I don't think 1111 has better kill power. It probably has worse since you don't have bomb drop or missile, or even cannon uppercut if you feel like it. This is from my experience playing against Gunners and as Gunner vs. Ike. Maybe a charge shot spec is a lot closer to even if the gunner is defensive.

Mii Gunner has several kill setups with charge blast that are not used very often in competitive play. I am currently working on writing a mii gunner true combo and follow up thread. I am almost finished with default Gunner's combos (outside of Gunner's jab follow ups, including jab to charge blast), but I don't have the skill in footstool combos to come up with anything for Gunner. I have seen what you can do with Gunner, and I think you are one of the best Gunners in the world, but some of the follow ups in my post could help you improve. I would appreciate if you can read my post, and reply with some combos of your own.

 

[Vipermoon]

Dsmash is transcendent and outranges Marth fsmash. I've seen it!

That is not what's actually happening. Like any character, When Marth Fsmashes and during his Fsmash end lag, his body is moved forward. This is what allowed M2's Dsmash to reach.

Something that I was wondering, if you couldn't buffer ledge options and so ledge trumps became a more common sight, would that be better or worse for the game overall?

I think that would be really bad honestly. Not only would it be annoying like edge hogging was but it would be much less dynamic. The edge stuff is so dynamic with the buffered option system. Like when Nairo goes to tether ledge trump ZeRo and they both do a ledge jump at almost the same time and because their characters have broken mobility one ledge jump already puts your mid-stage, mid-height. Nairo Uairs, ZeRo dies (TBH5).

 

[Ulevo]

Coming from a meta knight main I know his exact weaknesses, MK is at the brink of viable but his glaring weaknesses are his priority and how light he is.
Too many times ive died to ZSS not from her Up-B but a single Up-air around 80-100 depending on the stage, but around 110-120 you might as well give up.
Range isn't an issue for MK
So... through the eyes of players that don't play MK... why is he or why isn't he so high? Im really curious

Brink of viable? You do not understand this character very well.

Meta Knight's only main weaknesses are that the crux of gameplay is based off of dash attack interactions, and that if a player actively knows to DI dash attack and can do so on reaction then the rest of his follow ups become inconsistent or impossible.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Just a few General questions I have for this list (no particular order)


Heavy, Good projectiles, awesome range, great recovery, but sub par combo ability
*cough* *cough*
*cough**cough*
They all do the same thing, pick your flavor.

Let's check that.

Heavy?
: Not really
: Yes

Good Projectiles?
: Yes, Galaxian comboes, Bell stuns and Hydrant plows through Hoo Ha-esque things (except BEEP-BOP)
: Cannonball's atrocious, if that's what you mean. MechaKoopa is good but not comparable to the projectile game of Pac and I presume Mega as well

Awesome Range?
: In Projectiles, not in normals
: Powerful disjpints, yes.

Great Recovery
: Between Power Pellets and all Trampoline Jumps (though he's easy to hit while Trampolining) Pac-Man has an above average recovery
: Same, Koopa Kart is great, Up B great too but easy to hit.

No combo
: Yeah, no comboes apart from Nair to Fair
: His biggest strenght is his amazing combo-ability.

All in all, Pac and Bowser Jr aren't really comparable.

 

[DR()BC]

Brink of viable? You do not understand this character very well.

Meta Knight's only main weaknesses are that the crux of gameplay is based off of dash attack interactions, and that if a player actively knows to DI dash attack and can do so on reaction then the rest of his follow ups become inconsistent or impossible.

I agree, but at the same time disagree.
Most of MKs go to options are to punish or trump a dash attack or grab, then follow up.
Normally im using
Nair, Neutral B, DThrow, DTilt etc...
you can DI the dash attack sure, but i rarely get conversions off of it in the first place.
glad you pointed that out though.
also when you said "Brink of viable"? You do not understand this character very well.
what did you mean? and where would you put MK in terms of viability.
like I said this is all my opinion and im curious.

 

[Ulevo]

I agree, but at the same time disagree.
Most of MKs go to options are to punish or trump a dash attack or grab, then follow up.
Normally im using
Nair, Neutral B, DThrow, DTilt etc...
you can DI the dash attack sure, but i rarely get conversions off of it in the first place.
glad you pointed that out though.
also when you said "Brink of viable"? You do not understand this character very well.
what did you mean? and where would you put MK in terms of viability.
like I said this is all my opinion and im curious.

Meta Knight is a top 10 character right now.

If you are not getting conversions from dash attack then you need to improve.

 

[meleebrawler]

Many of Mewtwo's frame data adjustments appear to be standardization based on range. Similar to how Donkey Kong had his forward tilt IASA brought closer to other heavyweights or how R.O.B's forward tilt had its range cut back significantly.


A lot of Smash 4's Mewtwo's issues exist because the development team were so accurate to its Melee iteration.


Up-tilt's over-the-top amount of hitboxes is because they were like that in Melee, they even had the same trajectories. Down throw has the same trajectory and knockback values, and while they both have too much ending lag to reliably combo non-fast fallers, Smash 4's down-throw still saw 3 frames added to it.


They've kept Mewtwo so close to Melee yet gave him some extreme nerfs to his weight which is just very interesting to me. The loss of a damaging charging Shadow Ball is one decision I really don't understand, though.

The nerfs to weight came because a) everything that isn't a combo or setup tool has drastically increased knockback, b) he has amazing recovery and c) his shadow ball is now the strongest projectile in normal circumstance.

The loss of damaging charge was likely done both as a trade-off for the increased power and to further emphasize Mewtwo being more effective at a distance than up close. Lucario may have the charging damage, but Aura Sphere has by far the worst frame data in both startup and recovery upon firing. Melee Shadow Ball was more about stage control with it's slow movement and trajectory.

As for bair they probably just didn't want it to be too good for spacing out ground opponents, since he has plenty of other options for that already. It's more designed for air-to-air and anti-air.

 

[|RK|]

Out of curiosity, how much slower is Robin's Nosferatu than his grab? I never see Nosferatu these days, and I'm not sure why.

 

[DR()BC]

Let's check that.

Heavy?
: Not really
: Yes

Good Projectiles?
: Yes, Galaxian comboes, Bell stuns and Hydrant plows through Hoo Ha-esque things (except BEEP-BOP)
: Cannonball's atrocious, if that's what you mean. MechaKoopa is good but not comparable to the projectile game of Pac and I presume Mega as well

Awesome Range?
: In Projectiles, not in normals
: Powerful disjpints, yes.

Great Recovery
: Between Power Pellets and all Trampoline Jumps (though he's easy to hit while Trampolining) Pac-Man has an above average recovery
: Same, Koopa Kart is great, Up B great too but easy to hit.

No combo
: Yeah, no comboes apart from Nair to Fair
: His biggest strenght is his amazing combo-ability.

All in all, Pac and Bowser Jr aren't really comparable.

I get that and i agree, but i probably should have explained further.
Their main game is making your opponent deal with a large amount of projectiles and then punishing.
what you skimmed over was that i was comparing Mega to pac and BJ, not BJ to Pac.
So lets try it again
Heavy?
: Yep
: Nope
Good Projectiles?
: Yes
Great Recovery
: All are good, but easily gimpable
No Combos
: Kinda
: DThrow to dash attack (i guess? is it true idk)
: Good combo ability

This is all just my opinion.

 

[Djent]

Mr R went all MK at a national in Germany. Both singles and doubles.

For the Pikachu thing Esam has recently been struggling against a MK from Clemson(think he's called Sect), always going game 5. Tyrant also took Esam to game 3 at EVO but customs, not sure if MK truly beats Pikachu.

Iiinteresting. I don't think this MU is in Pika's favor, though it could be even, maybe disadvantaged. It's an interesting one where one of Pika's biggest strengths can potentially be nullified (hey, you want to avoid my follow-ups? Too bad, this is guaranteed!). MK also doesn't care too much about sh fair and his ground game matches up vs. Pika's fairly well.

IIRC customs helped ESAM and not Tyrant in their EVO match (I think ESAM landed a twave lock at some point). And I'm going to have to look up Sect now.

 

[DR()BC]

Meta Knight is a top 10 character right now.

If you are not getting conversions from dash attack then you need to improve.

Its not my preferred choice that's all, I normally go for Dtilt to Dthrow then the UpAirs come in.
His Dash attack is hard to punish but I prefer the angle of DThrow to start the chain
I use dash attack normally to punish rolls or punish charged smash attacks, but then you might as well use tornado since it does I believe 18-20% with all of the hits.
but that's how i personally play Meta

 

[NegaNixx]

I agree, but at the same time disagree.
Most of MKs go to options are to punish or trump a dash attack or grab, then follow up.
Normally im using
Nair, Neutral B, DThrow, DTilt etc...
you can DI the dash attack sure, but i rarely get conversions off of it in the first place.
glad you pointed that out though.
also when you said "Brink of viable"? You do not understand this character very well.
what did you mean? and where would you put MK in terms of viability.
like I said this is all my opinion and im curious.

I've been learning MK as of late and from what I've seen (from top Metaknights,not mine) his biggest weakness is that his neutral is generally relegated to the Mid-Range and dash options and if the Opponent has the ability to control that area throughly MK is neutered and can't use his awesome advantage state as easily. You're just sort of forced to... Wait.

His advantage state is too good to be "At the brink of Viable." And his disadvantage state is also decent enough, it's just held back by such a hollow method of approaching.

A Metaknight is only as good as his ability to stretch advantage (specifically conversions off of Out of Dash options) and that's why Leo and Abadango (in particular) seem so scary with him.

I have him at the 9-12 spots depending on what's going on in the world.

 

[DR()BC]

I've been learning MK as of late and from what I've seen his biggest weakness is that his neutral is generally relegated to the Mid-Range and dash options and if the Opponent has the ability to control that area throughly MK is neutered and can't use his awesome advantage state as easily. You're just sort of forced to... Wait.

His advantage state is too good to be "At the brink of Viable." And his disadvantage state is also decent enough, it's just held back by such a hollow method of approaching.

A Metaknight is only as good as his ability to stretch advantage (specifically conversions off of Out of Dash options) and that's why Leo and Abadango (in particular) seem so scary with him.

I have him at the 9-12 spots depending on what's going on in the world.

9-12 to me is at "that brink of Viable" but like you said, "and if the Opponent has the ability to control that area throughly MK is neutered and can't use his awesome advantage state as easily. You're just sort of forced to... Wait."
Most top tiers do just that
Pika, Mario, Luigi, ZSS, Ryu to a certain extent
Its hard finding that sweet spot to get in when facing those characters.
but to get the stock with MK you have to know the right percent, pray that your opponent does not read your adjustment to their DI, then start chaining up-airs.
but you need that percent first.
Ive had no problems getting those up-airs and getting rewarded, Im just saying that dash attack isn't the only option with MK

you guys seem to know a lot about MK and im interested in getting better so feel free to add my NNID

 

[Apeirohaon]

Out of curiosity, how much slower is Robin's Nosferatu than his grab? I never see Nosferatu these days, and I'm not sure why.

grab is frame 7 (maybe one frame slower than average), Nosferatu is frame 16 (on par with ZSS/Samus grab)

 

[warionumbah2]

Iiinteresting. I don't think this MU is in Pika's favor, though it could be even, maybe disadvantaged. It's an interesting one where one of Pika's biggest strengths can potentially be nullified (hey, you want to avoid my follow-ups? Too bad, this is guaranteed!). MK also doesn't care too much about sh fair and his ground game matches up vs. Pika's fairly well.

IIRC customs helped ESAM and not Tyrant in their EVO match (I think ESAM landed a twave lock at some point). And I'm going to have to look up Sect now.

Esam vs Tyrant was off stream sadly, but yea he had customs while Tyrant was using default. Pika doesn't win but its hard to talk about this MU there's no footage of it being played at high/top level. I would say Nakat but he's never played a good MK in general, a problem alot of US players have because good MKs are rare. Socal is the best region in terms of MK rep.

I do remember Tyrant approaching this MU(against a mid level socal pika) by staying in QA 1 range and spamming F-smash and Dtilt. I think this is one of the rare MUs where MK can space someone out. Walking is strong in this MU for micro spacing F-smash and also keeping his hurtbox low, dashing makes him slightly bigger vertically.

 

[ARGHETH]

Out of curiosity, how much slower is Robin's Nosferatu than his grab? I never see Nosferatu these days, and I'm not sure why.

Also, we only get four uses before a 40 second cooldown. It's only really useful as a mixup to punish staying in shield or when your percents is significantly higher than your opponent's. (Some people just use it up to get the book, though)

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I get that and i agree, but i probably should have explained further.
Their main game is making your opponent deal with a large amount of projectiles and then punishing.
what you skimmed over was that i was comparing Mega to pac and BJ, not BJ to Pac.
So lets try it again
Heavy?
: Yep
: Nope
Good Projectiles?
: Yes
Great Recovery
: All are good, but easily gimpable
No Combos
: Kinda
: DThrow to dash attack (i guess? is it true idk)
: Good combo ability

This is all just my opinion.

I didn't skim over the Mega Man-part, I'm just not really well-versed in Mega Man's playstyle and abilities and I didn't want to spread false info.

Anyway, comparing those three is like comparing Zero Suit Samus and Mario because they're both fast with a projectile.

 

[|RK|]

grab is frame 7 (maybe one frame slower than average), Nosferatu is frame 16 (on par with ZSS/Samus grab)

Also, we only get four uses before a 40 second cooldown. It's only really useful as a mixup to punish staying in shield or when your percents is significantly higher than your opponent's. (Some people just use it up to get the book, though)

I see; thanks!

 

[DR()BC]

I didn't skim over the Mega Man-part, I'm just not really well-versed in Mega Man's playstyle and abilities and I didn't want to spread false info.

Anyway, comparing those three is like comparing Zero Suit Samus and Mario because they're both fast with a projectile.

"This is all just my opinion."

 

[Jehtt]

I didn't skim over the Mega Man-part, I'm just not really well-versed in Mega Man's playstyle and abilities and I didn't want to spread false info.

Why can't more people be like you?

 

[Thinkaman]

Nosferatu is really only useable as a means of catching a shielding opponent off-guard while landing, and as a dubious/quirky followup to arcthunder/arcfire at some spacings/percent.

The reward is mediocre if the opponent mashes well, even at high %s for either player.

 

[Ghostbone]

Nosferatu like every command grab is good at catching people on platforms and useful to b-reverse into a shielding opponent as you run off a platform.

MK is between 6th and 10th. But he's a lot worse at mid level than top level imo, since at lower levels people mess up roof combos and don't know the %s exactly.

 

[Ulevo]

Its not my preferred choice that's all, I normally go for Dtilt to Dthrow then the UpAirs come in.
His Dash attack is hard to punish but I prefer the angle of DThrow to start the chain
I use dash attack normally to punish rolls or punish charged smash attacks, but then you might as well use tornado since it does I believe 18-20% with all of the hits.
but that's how i personally play Meta

Exactly how are you landing up air chains from down throw on an opponent that DI's the down throw?

 

[⑨ball]

/
Best projectiles in the game, Kills REALLY early, Self healing, Can camp for days, but has fantastic throws and frame data.
limits are that their hurt boxes are extremely precise and is hard to learn (just copied and pasted that last sentence from the Ryu panel, but it still works)
Wii Fit mains, if you exist...
Please go to tournaments, do you like need a ride or something? I can buy you a bus pass idk...

Best projectiles are very likely to be Sheik's needles (Or Kirby with Sheik needles). Self healing is just a neat bonus and is pretty unremarkable despite what everyone who doesn't main this character will tell you. Throws are ok, frame data is also ok. You probably meant hitboxes here since I don't know how often the Ryu meta focuses on hurtbox alteration, also no very sure how "extremely precise" his hitboxes are they seem pretty normal in comparison.

 

[Lavani]

When one says Nosferatu is just a 16f grab, it sounds pretty bad. But as a command grab, it's both air usable and b-reversible. 16f isn't exactly awful for a command grab, either (Egg Lay 21f, Flame Choke 16f (air 19f), aerial Flying Slam 17f, Monkey Flip 20f)

Also, a little-known fun fact: it has a minor amount of i-frames (15-17f?) to simulate grab armor!

 

[C0rvus]

There's a good reason that Nosferatu is uncommon. Robin's grab is faster and now nets him much more reward than it used to. Nos is a nifty mixup that can help you sit on a lead or even the odds a bit. Cool move, but a niche one for sure.

 

[⑨ball]

When one says Nosferatu is just a 16f grab, it sounds pretty bad. But as a command grab, it's both air usable and b-reversible. And compared to other command grabs, the only quicker ones to start are Force Palm and Flying Slam (grounded; aerial is a frame slower).

Also, a little-known fun fact: it has a minor amount of i-frames (15-17f?) to simulate grab armor!

Wario Chomp - Frame 8
Falcon Dive - Frame 14
Kirby Inhale - Frame 14
Mewtwo Confusion - Frame 12

There are a couple faster than it. I feel like it's real differentiating trait is it's huge vertical hitbox which can hit far below where you'd imagine it should sucking standing opponents up into the air, and ofcourse the 18% (?) dealing projectile that she gets for using it 4 times.

 

[Lavani]

I forgot a lot of command grabs existed, oops.

Though, I was mainly thinking of moves that you could fall on a shield with, which Falcon Dive isn't going to do and Confusion would require prior usage to fall with.

 

[LancerStaff]

In case people haven't figured it out yet since it's LancerStaff , it's Pit's fair.

Yeah... Just wanted a few opinions of it in a vacuum. The -6 (actually -5) move from the other day would be Pit's Nair.

Although it's actually not really weak, just didn't want to tip anybody off with a real number. 9% is respectable and makes for a later KO move for Pit.

 

[Wintropy]

9-12 to me is at "that brink of Viable"

How do you define viable, if I might be so bold as to ask? What I extrapolate from this is that only the Top 10, by definition, can be considered viable. In a roster of over 50 characters, that is a very bold statement indeed.