Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Mario766]

Pikachu is going in the right direction, but Lucas is a character he shouldn't use for tournament play. Ness also gets rather...bodied by a lot of top tiers, so he'd need something to cover it like Pikachu. However using Pikachu is a big commitment so it's hard to secondary.

 

[Emblem Lord]

oh yeah Emblem Lord I kind of want to expand my knowledge on Ryu and I think it would be nice if you could expand your thought on Ryu vs Swordfighter just a bit. I know you put them on even and i wanted to know why.

I think all his projectiles have merit vs Ryu. Shuriken allows for longer range pressure. Chakram stronger at mid range. Gale blows through hadoukens and forces Ryu to rely more on aerial mobility however thats not a huge problem since Ryu can air dash and Gale leaves Swordfighter wide open. Reversal Slash is strong vs hadoukens as well and can gimp Ryu out of his recovery. Same applications as Marios Cape really. Normals are solid for footsies and Ryu doesnt really get utilt locks vs Swordfighter IIRC. Do any of their up bs have invincibility? Anyway main weaknesses for Swordfighter in this match is inability to close stocks in a realm thats ANYWHERE close to what Ryu can do. Also has poor options for getting out of disadvantage.

I call it even for now mainly due to reversal slash. If not for that I would def give it to Ryu. But being able to get gimps is crucial for beating him and getting that early lead.

Here is a set of me vs a sparring partner. I'm experimenting with some things, but it should give you some idea of the match.

 

[bc1910]

Someone asked a few pages back about the Kirby Sheik MU (again) and I dunno what to say, aside from at the top level, the better player will win... especially if they're the Sheik. Kirby's biggest hurdles I see are the disjoint on Sheik's Fair, which can theoretically beat almost all of his moves if spaced correctly, and the fact that her Dthrow->Upair seems to be guaranteed at certain percents, while Kirby has less reliable (but generally stronger) KO options. As bad of a character as Kirby is, the matchup isn't too bad, considering how Sheik is the best character in the game. Unless ZSS secretly is. I'm still convinced that the matchup is at least 50-50 under the condition that Kirby has Upper Cutter, and has access to Sheik's Needles, but since this condition is never met (customs are almost universally banned) I'd put it at 40-60ish.

I can say with certainty that no character mains on Anther's Ladder have complained about Kirby when playing me as much as Sheik players have.

I want to say that the starting assumption of that post is incorrect in the first place. He says that Lucas is a sweetspot/combo based character, but I see 3 specials that are projectiles (2 of which are bad, but PK Fire is very good to make up for this,) a lagless Zair that destroys projectiles, a stick that reflects projectiles, and a magnet that absorbs projectiles, and I think more of a zoner/anti-zoner, or whatever term the kids use these days.

Then I read the posts after this one and see people saying basically the same thing. :D

Lucas is by no means terrible, he has some good things going for him, as people said. I see the reddit thread mentioned that he might be the only character with no autocancels from a short hop, and I was gonna mention Greninja, but I guess he edited in a bunch of characters since I saw it yesterday. Still, autocancels from a shorthop aren't necessary 100% of the time. Lucas' aerials are quite good for comboing without SH autocancels. Downsmash not hitting all three hits after you shield one is kind of weird. I know moves with lingering hitboxes can be shielded at the start, rendering the rest of their hitbox ineffective, but multihits don't have this effect, and Lucas' Dsmash certainly seems like a multihit type like Shulk's. Still, at least it's very powerful, and has a janky hitbox that even hits behind him! He could probably use some buffs, but he still has some neat things going for him, with all 4 throws being viable, footstool combos being possible, Zair and PK Fire giving him strong neutral options, low % KOs being possible, magnet having 3 powerful uses with the intended use of absorbing projectiles, the still-intended secondary use of hitting opponents at an incredible downwards angle, and the tertiary use of changing direction/momentum in the air, leading to cool things, and.. having a better recovery than Ness?

Funnily enough I happen to think Kirby beats Greninja if he can copy Water Shuriken. You can't really take "if Kirby has their B" as a true condition of the MU though. Part of the MU is how easy it is for Kirby to swallow them, and it's definitely not easy vs mobile characters with projectiles like Sheik and Greninja.

Fun fact, Greninja's Bair and Uair are 1 frame away from autocancelling in a short hop. Both AC on frame 35 and his short hop has 34 total frames.

Also I'm on mobile so I can't see your flair but judging by your new pic is it fair to assume you've picked up Greninja?

 

[K3H]

To all the people claiming that Lucas is in the lower echelons of the cast... why?

He goes at least even with a vast majority of the cast. Even with a decent amount of higher tiered characters. He's got a really good CQC game that can keep up with the likes of the Mario Bros. even. He's got 2 reliable ways of dealing with projectiles, a recovery that rivals the Pits in terms of distance (and and tether as well).

He's got reliable means of killing, and I don't just mean his hoo hah. He has easy ways to jab lock characters, (not the footstool method either) and he is a potent edge guarder. Dsmash at the ledge is the bane of a good chunk of the characters in the game. As well as PK Thunder stage spikes and gimps, along with PK Freeze to stop the more linear recoveries. And Dair and Bair wreck a decent amount of characters when off stage.

He's got good spacing tools, and aerials that are safe in shield when properly spaced, or approached with in the right manner (RAR Nair). He's got enough combos to really mix up what he does, and he can apply a good amount of pressure from up close or afar.

3 kill throws, a set up out Dthrow, and combos for days out of it as well mean that getting grabbed by him is a serious threat at virtually any percent. Yes, it is limited by the fact that it's a tether grab, but because Lucas thrives off of mix ups, getting a grab when needed shouldn't be too difficult provided the Lucas actually was mixing things up.

And who does he lose to? He can hang with Mario, Luigi, Ness, Diddy, Yoshi, Pikachu (especially since Dair stops QA cold), Meta Knight, Ryu, Rosalina (PK Fire removes Luma from the equation, and his Dash attack, Dsmash and FSmash do this reliably too) and Captain Falcon. His frame data is good enough for him to avoid being overwhelmed by any of those characters, and having moves he can use to get the upper hand against them, such as Utilt and Mix ups out of Dtilt.

The only results he has are of Pink Fresh as Xanadu. And both times he was used there he made it far in the tournament.

He does have a weakness to disjoints with relatively low like, like Roy and Ike, but a poorly spaced move will allow Lucas to get in and rack up some serious damage. And even then, a retreating PK Freeze can punish the landing of the aerials, or stop them in their tracks. But this is more of a mix up than a definite answer.

Lucas thrives off of mixing up spacing and applying pressure. By switching when the two are applied, it can be very hard for an opponent to predict what Lucas will do next.

He's hard to approach as well. Utilt is suprisingly handy as an Anti Air. PK Fire and Zair make getting near him a pain, and an Usmash can meet anyone who approaches poorly from the air (or who lands incorrectly, but this is more risky than other options).

There have been many instances when I've been above someone who is trying to attack me, and I've thrown out a Dair and landed with no problem (but against characters with disjointed attacks, ehh...). And because of his weight and floatiness, juggling him can be a problem.

Maybe it's just me and I haven't fought the players you guys have (and I've had my fair share of matches on anthers and tournament matches), but I've never thought "oh man, why did I pick Lucas?" Even when fighting the likes of ZSS and Sheik, I've never felt it was unwinnable. Sure, the room for error is much smaller, but he has the frame data and safe distance poking tools to at least stay afloat in MU with them. Although I will say the matchup with Sheik is definitely a tough one, although not unwinnable.

I know I didn't mention his weaknesses in detail, but that's because someone posted a post from reddit where someone else explained them.

After getting almost 9000 kills (somewhere around 8700ish right now) I have never though lucas was a bottom-half-of-the-cast character. Please, I want someone to debate this with me. I just don't see it the way others here do.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lucas is solid high tier. Not amazing but he has super threatening footstool combos at low percents and d-throw sets up for uair kill confirms at high percents. He is pretty legit. One of my sparring partners plays him and we always run even. Optimal Lucas is strong runaway and he is one slippery little thing.

Is Ness better? Sure. Mostly due to jank bthrow and his hitboxes, but Lucas is pretty dang solid.

Losing to Sheik and ZSS is unfortunate and really holds him back however.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Lucas is solid high tier. Not amazing but he has super threatening footstool combos at low percents and d-throw sets up for uair kill confirms at high percents. He is pretty legit. One of my sparring partners plays him and we always run even. Optimal Lucas is strong runaway and he is one slippery little thing.

Is Ness better? Sure. Mostly due to jank bthrow and his hitboxes, but Lucas is pretty dang solid.

Losing to Sheik and ZSS is unfortunate and really holds him back however.

To be fair, the holds a lot of people back. Lucas is no exception.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Lucas is solid high tier. Not amazing but he has super threatening footstool combos at low percents and d-throw sets up for uair kill confirms at high percents. He is pretty legit. One of my sparring partners plays him and we always run even. Optimal Lucas is strong runaway and he is one slippery little thing.

Is Ness better? Sure. Mostly due to jank bthrow and his hitboxes, but Lucas is pretty dang solid.

Losing to Sheik and ZSS is unfortunate and really holds him back however.

THANK YOU. Someone finally understands me. Are finally people agreeing that Lucas is a Solid High Tier? if so... Then I have to say something.

I GOD DAMN TOLD YOU.

Sorry about that. Had to get it out of my system

Anyways, can we talk about why has been Sonic getting more consistent results? Don't get me wrong, Sonic is amazing and all. But I wanted to discuss, why is he getting to Top 8/Top 10 much more? The Shieldstun increase has helped Sonic? Have Sonic mains changed their playstyle and started being more aggressive or a lot safer?

 

[Megamang]

Worse shields benefit the mobile characters more.

 

[Zannabluke]

well yes, more shieldstun = you can't immediately punish sonic out of his spin dash/charge/etc

 

[C0rvus]

Well, considering how valuable being able to play keepaway is, and the indirect nerf to shields, I can see Lucas doing well in the current meta. His grab kinda hurts of course, but he gets quite a bit of mileage out of it (consistent combos and 3 kill throws, hot damn), unlike characters like Villager, Pac Man, and Toon Link. He just seems so... average. I wouldn't consider him high tier so hastily. Buuuuuut when better players say it's so, I know when to check myself.

 

[Kaladin]

I'd agree with Lucas as a solid high tier. He has a high tier neutral, but not top tier, high tier combos/punishes/conversions, but not top tier, and a high tier disadvantage. His recovery could be better, but Ness' is much worse and people are calling him top 10.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lucas is better then Toon Link tho.

 

[Kaladin]

Lucas is better then Toon Link tho.

*grammar nazi twitch*

Speaking of Tink, where do we think he is? He strikes me as that character that's the best mid tier or worse high tier, along with, like, Greninja and that portion of the cast.

 

[Wintropy]

*grammar nazi twitch*

Speaking of Tink, where do we think he is? He strikes me as that character that's the best mid tier or worse high tier, along with, like, Greninja and that portion of the cast.

No that's Pit you silly billy~ ;3

I think Tink's pretty good. I think what holds Link back is his mobility and the fact that he gets good reward off of his grabs and setups, but can't reliably get into that position; Tink's mobility and smaller hitbox means he's safer and has more options in that sense, even if he does trade a bit of strength for it. I'd rather a character who's weaker but faster and has safer options to get their reward (i.e. the vast majority of top-tiers in this game).

I think? I confess, I don't know the Links very well. That's just what I gather from watching them do their thing.

And I live in Ireland, the Link capital of every-bloody-where~

 

[bc1910]

*grammar nazi twitch*

Speaking of Tink, where do we think he is? He strikes me as that character that's the best mid tier or worse high tier, along with, like, Greninja and that portion of the cast.

Greninja is way above that portion of the cast.

So is Pit, for that matter.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

The guy I play smash with most mains Toon Link. His meta seems really matchup dependant. I almost always win with Doc and Diddy, but consistantly lose when I go DK.
Do not forget about his kill confirm game. Throw bomb down -> Uair, Boomerang -> Fair, and Uptilt for days.
Even Utilt-> footstool-> Dair works on larger characters (does not kill unless you're at the ledge where it spikes offstage).

He's probably lower mid IMO when you take everything else into account

 

[Radical Larry]

NachoOfCheese The Links both win against DK in 55:45 (Link and Toon Link vs DK), but Link (not Tink) beats Doc hands down due to having a better edge-guard game than Tink and being able to easily out-class Doc in footsies and aerial game.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Jamurai I actually forgot about swordfighter. His Utilt and Dtilt are absolutely AMAZING. Not the best range on everything but he's definitely a contender if not the overall best in sword-tilts. MK doesn't have enough range (even for a "sword" character), area coverage, active frames, or damage to be among the best. His Dtilt is wonderful and everthing you said is true but like we've said, almost everyone has good tilts.



Every time I will make a paragraph it's to reply to a different paragraph.

I did not get something about Marth wrong. FAF/IASA is not an end frame, it's the frame after the end frame. KH uses FAF so you have subtract 1 when you want the end frame. @Kurogane Hammer Your FAF on Lucina's/Marth's Ftilt should say 36. Thanks. Anyway, so that's end frame 35, 36, and 23 for Marth's tilts. Lol at "but it's relevant trust me."

Like Emblem Lord said, most characters have great tilts.

Ftilt is too slow. It's a great kill move (like a throw this out instead of Fsmash kind of thing) but frame 15 is pretty trashy. It's range is meh for a sword. Good thing it doesn't lag much.

Utilt is pretty good. Only okay range for a sword. It kills eventually and does great damage. Start-up is still fast.

Dtilt is slow and thanks to Link's slow jumpsquat and aerials, it can't really start combos. But whatever, it's useful in some situations.

Link and Marth movesets are not comparable in terms of frame data. The attributes and details of their movesets are too different. But in general Link has too much start-up across the board. Marth's Ftilt isn't anti-air? What world do you live in?

There is no such thing as "only 5 frames." 5 frames is enormous in this game. Link is still sluggish despite what you say. Plus he moves sluggishly so that sure doesn't make up for anything. I don't need to pull up KH because I basically have Link's normals memorized

Uh hu.

Yes, we all know Marth has a useless, unbalanced Dsmash.

That is false, most things about Link's frame data is carried over from Brawl. And then Brawl's was nerfed from Melee. Frame 5 Uair anyone? IASA 40 dash attack anyone?

Little Mac's Utilt is absolutely amazing! Wtf!? It's frame 5-10, ends on 29, does 9 PERCENT, has wonderful reach, and not much KB growth so it combos into Uspecial for a large percentage range.

Actually Marth and Lucina Ftilt FAF is 37 =P

 

[Planty]

Losing to Sheik and ZSS is unfortunate and really holds him back however.

To be fair, the holds a lot of people back. Lucas is no exception.

:"Hello!"

This IS the character that many are putting as top 3, right? If Lucas is being put lower on tier lists because of his bad matchup vs those 2, then what about her? Sure, her matchup spread is (probably)better vs a lot of the lower tiers, but her weaknesses get exploited vs top tiers, where it matters.

I would actually like to hear your opinion on this. Did you just make an oversight, or is she a super special snowflake?

 

[Illuminose]

:"Hello!"

This IS the character that many are putting as top 3, right? If Lucas is being put lower on tier lists because of his bad matchup vs those 2, then what about her? Sure, her matchup spread is (probably)better vs a lot of the lower tiers, but her weaknesses get exploited vs top tiers, where it matters.

I would actually like to hear your opinion on this. Did you just make an oversight, or is she a super special snowflake?

rosa doesn't really lose to sheik in the same vein (it's only a slight disadvantage, very winnable whereas lucas loses kinda hard) and she has a lot more advantageous matchups and good character stuff as a whole. beating characters like fox, ness (counter), diddy kong, mario, and sonic is a big deal. even the matchups she technically loses you can't really count her out of because there is no percent that you cannot lose your stock against rosalina, she has a lot of 'jank' and that really works in her favor. the zero suit matchup is awful but it's also fairly uncommon, and there aren't a lot of good rosa players so not everyone knows the matchup.

DblCrest rosa also has strong results from players like rayquaza, falln, and kirihara

 

[DblCrest]

This now has me wondering, what other Rosas other than Dabuz have high placements in tournaments?

Yet we don't treat Rosalina the same way as Pika who only has Esam to my knowledge .

 

[Emblem Lord]

If by special you mean completely broken piece of **** then yeah sure.

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

Lucas is solid high tier. Not amazing but he has super threatening footstool combos at low percents and d-throw sets up for uair kill confirms at high percents. He is pretty legit. One of my sparring partners plays him and we always run even. Optimal Lucas is strong runaway and he is one slippery little thing.

Is Ness better? Sure. Mostly due to jank bthrow and his hitboxes, but Lucas is pretty dang solid.

Losing to Sheik and ZSS is unfortunate and really holds him back however.

Lucas is not high tier, he probably has -1 matchups all across the board, he's close to being good, but he still sucks. I was one o f the best Lucas's in the world in Brawl, and he got nerfed to hell in this game, even Mekos refuses to pick him up fully because of his flaws that make his gameplay clunky and not fluent at all.

Once you get to 130 he has a kill confirm if you follow the DI perfectly, but how much of a punish will you take before you get that grab? At least make it not get outranged by the 2nd hit of bowsers jab. He's literally so close to being tournament viable, but there's too much holding him back.

Also, I don't get why everyone says use zair, I'm not gonna run around zairing the entire match, after 5 zairs thats 10 damage, if they just get one hit it's already in their favor. He has a good and useful zair but please stop acting like zair is going to just start killing people, because I swear that's what people make it sound like.

 

[Fatmanonice]

To be fair, the holds a lot of people back. Lucas is no exception.

Ain't that the truth. Off the top of my head, I'd say that would be taken much more seriously if those two didn't lead these six by the nose in their respective matchups. Not total blowouts for most of them but frustrating enough that I know a lot of these have secondaries specifically for those matchups.

 

[Mario766]

The only MU that could be reasonably said to be 6-4 against Ike is Sheik.

The ZSS MU isn't AS bad.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja doesn't really struggle with ZSS, it's a pretty even MU. Sheik is a problem though

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

Also I don't believe Lucas to be getting put lower because of Rosalina. I think that matchup is like a -1 too, it's not that bad and Luma can make Lucas do some jank things. (Extended hitboxes at the edge, makes recovering for her pretty awful with our d smash if Luma is there)

 

[bc1910]

Ain't that the truth. Off the top of my head, I'd say that would be taken much more seriously if those two didn't lead these six by the nose in their respective matchups. Not total blowouts for most of them but frustrating enough that I know a lot of these have secondaries specifically for those matchups.

Sheik is bad. But Greninja does totally fine against ZSS, you can't lump Sheik and ZSS together like that for him.

We've even had arguments from ZSS players that Greninja beats her. Check out this page of our MU thread for more information. I argued against us winning but I'd say the MU is even.

Greninja really doesn't need a secondary for anyone except Sheik. The same could probably be said for Ike. But then Greninja and Ike are a cut above all the others mentioned there, except maybe DK, but he seems to have way more 6-4s than both of them despite how strong he is in certain MUs.

 

[Nu~]

Mario766
I doubt that Ike only loses to shiek. What are his other 4-6 matchups?





These are all of the characters that don't need secondaries imo. No they are not in order.
They all don't lose to any other high/top tiers more than 6-4 and have 4 or less relevant bad matchups.

Yes falcon isn't here. His sheik matchup seems to be awful enough to keep him out (30-70 territory imo. But I can be wrong)

 

[Mario766]

I didn't say that was the only losing MU.

I said that was his only MU that anyone would say is 6-4.

Or like some Sheik mains say, 65-35


mmmmmhmmmm.

 

[⑨ball]

None of these characters mind the ZSS MU much and all of them could be argued to be -1s at worst.

^edit: Triple ninja'd

I don't think Lucas is high tier material personally. Zoning is decent, throws are neat, doesn't significantly lack anywhere in the gameplay states, but honestly the same could be said about a lot of mid-low tier characters.

Lucas' MUs don't seem bad either at a glance. What really bars him from high tier in my opinion is a neutral game that transitions naturally into his optimal advantage. Poking and keep away is fine, and can certainly win you a match or two, but without the ability to consistently end stocks, you're essentially flailing in neutral against the actual high tiers hoping to land a good hit with hard reads/punishes and that's not what you want when high tier and above are trying to end you with relatively safe options. It's especially disconcerting because as we know, Lucas does have those tools, they're just separate from the game he usually plays otherwise which leaves him as a character that most people can agree doesn't lose horribly to anyone, but also doesn't win either.

 

[Wintropy]

Mario766
I doubt that Ike only loses to shiek. What are his other 4-6 matchups?





These are all of the characters that don't need secondaries imo. No they are not in order.
They all don't lose to any other high/top tiers more than 6-4 and have 4 or less relevant unfavorable matchups.

Yes falcon isn't here. His sheik matchup seems to be awful enough to keep him out (30-70 territory imo. But I can be wrong)

Greninja's so viable he's here twice! Something something comment on the fact that Greninja is here twice.

Interesting concept. I know you play Pac-Man and therefore have a better understanding of his matchups than I do, but why do you think they're that good? Who does he get beaten by and why? What's his worst matchup?

 

[Fatmanonice]

I speak from my own experience although, of these six, I have much more experience with (one of my mains) and (my most used secondary after ). vs or is frustrating because they can do almost everything she can but better. It also doesn't really help that doesn't have a whole lot of answers to being chased from below or getting hit with strings of attacks in the air. is more manageable though. has most of the same problems but much worse because getting knocked into the air is a lot easier for a character that has high risk kill moves, a terrible grab, and how the mecha koopa can easily backfire against quick characters with good dash attacks. I'd say both are equally rough here.

 

[Illuminose]

Mario766
I doubt that Ike only loses to shiek. What are his other 4-6 matchups?





These are all of the characters that don't need secondaries imo. No they are not in order.
They all don't lose to any other high/top tiers more than 6-4 and have 4 or less relevant bad matchups.

Yes falcon isn't here. His sheik matchup seems to be awful enough to keep him out (30-70 territory imo. But I can be wrong)

greninja is living the rough life against sheik (requires a secondary), i really don't think pac can go all the way with sheiks and rosas and other characters that know the matchup (abadango certainly doesn't think so!), zero suit can't get it done against pikachu, ness loses extremely hard to rosalina and loses pretty bad to sheik as well, and ike has way too bad of a sheik matchup for that to be viable at a high level (there's probably other characters up there too like meta knight for instance but there's a low sample size of ikes vs top players). yoshi is prolly solo viable (maybe his sheik matchup is too iffy...I don't think it's worse than a 55:45 in sheik's favor...he can beat rosa...everyone else is fine for yoshi).

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

Ness can't be solo mained. Rosalina exists

 

[TurboLink]

Ness can't be solo mained. Sheik exists

FTFY

 

[Vipermoon]

Actually Marth and Lucina Ftilt FAF is 37 =P

You're right. Thank you. And I thought I was sure. I remember seeing it as IASA 36 on mastercore (my imagination obviously) and every other source has said total 35/IASA 36, even the patch thread. Plus it was like that in Melee and Brawl. Good of you to not trust that stuff.

Okay so this means it matches Utilt. Still pretty reasonable for its damage, speed, and coverage.

There are a couple of others though. Shield Breaker is two words (if you care), fully charged it's +50 shield damage, and Nair pre-hitbox autocancels on (only) frame 1 ("AsynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 2"). If there's one thing I love about my autocancel slits... I mean windows; it's how generous Sakurai made them!

This now has me wondering, what other Rosas other than Dabuz have high placements in tournaments?

Yet we don't treat Rosalina the same way as Pika who only has Esam to my knowledge .

Um... Rayquaza. He should be pretty well known at this point. But then again Pikachu has NAKAT.

 

[Nu~]

Greninja's so viable he's here twice! Something something comment on the fact that Greninja is here twice.

Interesting concept. I know you play Pac-Man and therefore have a better understanding of his matchups than I do, but why do you think they're that good? Who does he get beaten by and why? What's his worst matchup?

Loses to 6-4 to

Our matchups are this good because we always have an answer to what the opponent can dish out. The problem is time. The characters that give pacman the time to set up his onslaught are the ones that generally lose or go even with us. These three can run through hydrants and punish trampoline in nuetral so they limit our set up time. However, our fruit traps still work on them (especially galaxian combos due to their physics bar sonic) and we have the frame data to keep up with them if we space ourselves. Ex. Bair is a safe poke on all of their shields. Sonic loses the air game to us and spin dash's value goes down whenever we can get a trampoline out, which is usually after we knock him away. Melon, galaxian, dtilt, and key beat spin dash as well. Sonic wins on the ground within his jab range, but loses outside of that. Fox wins all of CQC but dies to one orange offstage and can't land well against us, and ZSS struggles to grab us due to all of the devices we have to avoid getting grabbed. We are one of the few characters that force her to change her neutral game.

I can explain more in depth if needed.

 

[Jamurai]

Ike also loses to MK 6-4 imo, he is pretty easy to Uair combo and has a relatively wide range where it confirms into a kill. (inb4 but we outrange you so how will you get in?? )

Also Rosa is solo viable atm but once MKs bar Aba and Leo start getting optimal with their punishes, Rosa mains will be having a very hard time without a secondary to deal with him [on top of her other bad matchup(s)].

 

[san.]

Ike's MUs should be pretty stable. He still loses to quite a few characters, but it helps that he has some cheese factors of his own with various early kill traps and setups, preventing many MUs from being too bad to redeem. Ike dislikes MUs where he can't just tank the hits and also lose neutral.