Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

Lucario and Meta Knight have the fastest Dairs in the game at frame 4. Lucario can't multi-jump, so he can't harass like Meta Knight, but he has 9 frames of landing lag with his Dair while Meta Knight has 22.

Sonic's Bair is really really good. And his down air isn't bad offstage.

It's good, but it's it's slow at frame 13 which is why you don't see Seagull abuse his Bair like he did with Wolf in Brawl - Wolf's Bair was frame 6. At least it's not Lucario's Bair, though, which is frame 16... Lucario's Bair is strong, but it's as slow as a spike. What's really good about about Sonic's Bair aside from kill power and Sonic's air speed to weave with it, is that Sonic can setup his Bair.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Robin's Bair is very decent. One of the strongest.

Under average Bairs: Robin

This is why the durability mechanic is a wondrous thing.

Sucker kills at 90% and true combos from a sourspot Uair and Bair and Arcfire, but when Levin's outta juice? May as well be using Pac-Man's soggy-strong Bair.

 

[Wintropy]

Robin on a bad day. Little Mac.

Maybe even the Pits as well. Or at the least its nowhere near a threat as it was in Brawl.

Pit's is decent. Situational, yeah, but definitely a viable kill option / d-throw followup / off-stage tool / retreat mixup.

The fact that it's a disjoint helps, mind you.

EDIT: D-air is useful too. Short range and the sweetspot is hit 'n' miss, but it's fast and combos into itself from a d-throw setup / air chase~

 

[Nu~]

This is why the durability mechanic is a wondrous thing.

Sucker kills at 90% and true combos from a sourspot Uair and Bair, but when Levin's outta juice? May as well be using Pac-Man's soggy-strong Bair.

Hey...
A Frame 9, 11%, autocanceled Bair isn't half Bad. It has good range too, but no disjoint.

 

[Ikes]

Robin's Bair is very decent. One of the strongest.

Under average Bairs: Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Rosa, Jr, Wario, Diddy, Mac, Link, Sheik, Pit, Robin, DH, DDD, Fox, Pika, Char, ROB, Oli, WFT, DPit, Lucina, Pac, Sonic, M2, Roy, and don't know enough about Miis.

Had to choose about half the cast so sorry if a "good" Bair is in here.

Bowser's bair is NOT substandard. Nor is Wario, DDD, Pikachu, Olimar, Pac Man, Peach, or Mewtwo.

Pikachu's bair is arguably one of the better aerials in the game

 

[DD_]

Robin's Bair is very decent. One of the strongest.

Under average Bairs: Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Rosa, Jr, Wario, Diddy, Mac, Link, Sheik, Pit, Robin, DH, DDD, Fox, Pika, Char, ROB, Oli, WFT, DPit, Lucina, Pac, Sonic, M2, Roy, and don't know enough about Miis.

Had to choose about half the cast so sorry if a "good" Bair is in here.

Just curious, what are you defining here as an "average" bair

 

[migul]

Hmmmm. Let's see, of the 20 characters' dairs listed on page one:

are generally considered good.

are iffy at best.

are bad.

Do I have it wrong in any way? Am I just your typical scrub, insert elitist comment here? Give me feedback.

Pikachu's is good as it can SH autocancel and set up tech chases

 

[Shaya]

Re: back air
A different criteria but likely of similar result:
"characters who don't have solid reliable uses for their back air in their game play" (that are more meaningful than other moves used in the same situation)



some are just super average or generally underwhelming but are still 'essential' like Duck Hunt (***), Lucina, G&W, WiiFit, SAMUS, Wario and maybe Lucario. I'm sure someone's going to rant about Jigglypuff but I'm telling you, it's not that great (maybe fairer in the 'second' list).
I would feel comfortable saying Sheik if it weren't for the fact it's Sheik.

re: down air...

ZSS isn't -too bad- I guess... I probably use it more than I would the down airs of Diddy, Brawler or Wario.
Out of the falling dairs it's probably the only one that can be used to meteor people without dying + can be combo'd out of (sour hit of it combos into things).

 

[Ffamran]

Re: back air
A different criteria but likely of similar result:
"characters who don't have solid reliable uses for their back air in their game play" (that are more meaningful than other moves used in the same situation)



some are just super average or generally underwhelming but are still 'essential' like Duck Hunt (***), Lucina, G&W, WiiFit, SAMUS, Wario and maybe Lucario. I'm sure someone's going to rant about Jigglypuff but I'm telling you, it's not that great (maybe fairer in the 'second' list).
I would feel comfortable saying Sheik if it weren't for the fact it's Sheik.

re: down air...

ZSS isn't -too bad- I guess... I probably use it more than I would the down airs of Diddy, Brawler or Wario.
Out of the falling dairs it's probably the only one that can be used to meteor people without dying + can be combo'd out of (sour hit of it combos into things).

Greninja's Bair is like Link's and you can use it like Link's. I guess the issue is that Greninja might have better options, but I'm not a ninja frog expert. As for Toon Link's Bair, isn't it "better" than his Fair? It's faster and pretty much accomplishes the same thing. Also, I though Jigglypuff's Bair was good. Or am I wrong? Oh, I remember when people said Roy's Bair would be a useful kill tool... Oh well.

 

[Vipermoon]

Stop it right now

Okay but seriously though, Roy has a better Nair. It does have less range (matching Brawl Marth Nair range to be prescise). It does have 1 more frame of landing lag. Lastly, Roy can act out of it 4 frames earlier (though he falls super fast so who cares).

But how about this: Roy's Nair does 14.5 damage without any difficult spacing. The FIRST HIT does 4 or 6. That's like Brawl Marth Nair level damage. AND thanks to the 45 degree angle knockback (and thanks to Roy's fast jumps and mobility) you can combo off of Nair much easier. You can even Nair someone right across the stage, again thanks to the angle. ZeRo showed us that last one. And we already went over the damage so just imagine the damage from multiple Nairs.

I'm not implying anything on Roy as a character. I'm only telling you that he has a better Nair than Marth.

 

[Ikes]

Re: back air
A different criteria but likely of similar result:
"characters who don't have solid reliable uses for their back air in their game play" (that are more meaningful than other moves used in the same situation)



some are just super average or generally underwhelming but are still 'essential' like Duck Hunt (***), Lucina, G&W, WiiFit, SAMUS, Wario and maybe Lucario. I'm sure someone's going to rant about Jigglypuff but I'm telling you, it's not that great (maybe fairer in the 'second' list).
I would feel comfortable saying Sheik if it weren't for the fact it's Sheik.

re: down air...

ZSS isn't -too bad- I guess... I probably use it more than I would the down airs of Diddy, Brawler or Wario.
Out of the falling dairs it's probably the only one that can be used to meteor people without dying + can be combo'd out of (sour hit of it combos into things).

toon link's bair is good when the user knows a fair is too risky or if you want to go for a kill but your opponent is behind you while you're in the air. itll kill a bit later than fair but at percents where both kill, bair is a little faster.

Bowser's bair is yet another strong, fast, and fairly reliable kill move.

 

[C0rvus]

Greninja's Bair is like Link's and you can use it like Link's. I guess the issue is that Greninja might have better options, but I'm not a ninja frog expert. As for Toon Link's Bair, isn't it "better" than his Fair? It's faster and pretty much accomplishes the same thing. Also, I though Jigglypuff's Bair was good. Or am I wrong? Oh, I remember when people said Roy's Bair would be a useful kill tool... Oh well.

It's a good move air-to-air as Greninja, since it's fast and has range, and Nair is pretty much exclusively for air to ground. In terms of spacing, fair is better for its safety on shield.

Toon Link's nair essentially does what bair does, but neither is always better than the other strictly speaking. Neither is great, honestly. It at least is better than fair unless we're talking about kill confirms out of bombs; fair is your guy here every time. Bair is pretty good air to air here as well. You can almost get a fence of pain going.

Roy's bair can kill, but it's still below average.

 

[Vipermoon]

Bowser's bair is NOT substandard. Nor is Wario, DDD, Pikachu, Olimar, Pac Man, Peach, or Mewtwo.

Pikachu's bair is arguably one of the better aerials in the game

Just curious, what are you defining here as an "average" bair

There is no average Bair. You are either above or below average.

I know Pika's Bair uses. Trust me, I do. But the landing lag, damage, range, and kill power trumped those things just barely and I had to put it in the below average section.

This ranking I spent 2 minutes on while looking at the roster looks less at character uses for the Bair and more at the Bair by itself.

Edit, yeah Roy's Bair is pretty bad on a character like him. Not many of you guys know this but it doesn't hit above and below him like Marth's. In other words, it doesn't have frame 7 or 11 hitboxes.

 

[Sir Tundra]

A lot of good back airs in this game. Down airs, on the other hand...

If were talking about dair spikes then the best dairs imo are:



as of multi hit dairs:



edit: added peach

 

[Antonykun]

Hmmmm. Let's see, of the 20 characters' dairs listed on page one:

are generally considered good.

are iffy at best.

are bad.

Do I have it wrong in any way? Am I just your typical scrub, insert elitist comment here? Give me feedback.

Talks about Good D-airs but Ignore's Chrom's Swordgimper's Spinning Drill of Hell :/

Re: back air
A different criteria but likely of similar result:
"characters who don't have solid reliable uses for their back air in their game play" (that are more meaningful than other moves used in the same situation)



some are just super average or generally underwhelming but are still 'essential' like Duck Hunt (***), Lucina, G&W, WiiFit, SAMUS, Wario and maybe Lucario. I'm sure someone's going to rant about Jigglypuff but I'm telling you, it's not that great (maybe fairer in the 'second' list).
I would feel comfortable saying Sheik if it weren't for the fact it's Sheik.

re: down air...

ZSS isn't -too bad- I guess... I probably use it more than I would the down airs of Diddy, Brawler or Wario.
Out of the falling dairs it's probably the only one that can be used to meteor people without dying + can be combo'd out of (sour hit of it combos into things).

Shaya, Your post keeps reminding me that I really need to use more B-air. I used to spam it back in 1.0.4 when Swordfighter's Ground game wasn't as good as 1.0.6 and beyond but now I rarely have uses for it that can't be answered with the (now buffed) F-air and U-air

 

[DD_]

There is no average Bair. You are either above or below average.

How can you be determining what is average and below average without a middle point or some kind of criteria? Seems like you're just throwing out a list based off opinion which doesn't really contribute much :?

 

[Vipermoon]

How can you be determining what is average and below average without a middle point or some kind of criteria? Seems like you're just throwing out a list based off opinion which doesn't really contribute much :?

It's impossible to find a perfectly average Bair in a list of 50+ characters.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja's B-Air is good because it's his fastest aerial at frame 5, so it can be used to extend combos if you position yourself right. It's great for edgeguard too since it's a big hitbox that lasts a while thanks to the multihit and it can happen of it sending the opponent flying without having to connect with the final hit.

It's a really good edgeguarding option and it has good uses on-stage too just due to coming out so fast and having very good range.

I guess it ends up being overlooked in edgeguarding situations because Hydro Pump is a significantly more ridiculous edgeguarding tool.

 

[san.]

Talks about Good D-airs but Ignore's Chrom's Swordgimper's Spinning Drill of Hell :/

Shaya, Your post keeps reminding me that I really need to use more B-air. I used to spam it back in 1.0.4 when Swordfighter's Ground game wasn't as good as 1.0.6 and beyond but now I rarely have uses for it that can't be answered with the (now buffed) F-air and U-air

Swordfighter's bair is under average, but it's possibly +0 on shield drop, can reset after a footstool at low %, and can combo at lower % and help extend combos from utilt and uair. However, it has short range and it's slow at 8 frames for how short it is. Overall it has a use. 50/0's Mii's bair is probably pretty good though since it can be spaced much more effectively. Actually similar to Falcon's without the movement speed lol.

 

[Vipermoon]

Swordfighter's bair is under average, but it's possibly +0 on shield drop, can reset after a footstool at low %, and can combo at lower % and help extend combos from utilt and uair. However, it has short range and it's slow at 8 frames for how short it is. Overall it has a use. 50/0's Mii's bair is probably pretty good though since it can be spaced much more effectively. Actually similar to Falcon's without the movement speed lol.

Yeah but I'd still call it slightly above average. It's now killing real nice and doing 14 disjointed percent without real drawbacks.

 

[⑨ball]

It's impossible to find a perfectly average Bair in a list of 50+ characters.

I wouldn't say impossible. All it really takes is some defining on what makes a good bair and what makes it a bad one.

WFT's is probably average just by virtue of having fantastic attributes balanced out by terrible ones.

Hits on frame 5, 13.5% damage, 7 active frames, alters her hitbox, (iirc) 90 kb, jab locks, combos in from other aerials , is about 5 or 6 of her character length for aerial footsies.

But then it has 48 total frames, can't be acted out of until frame 43, and has 20 frames of landing lag.

 

[|RK|]

Kirby is definitely disasvantaged against Sheik. There is no way you could consider this even. Where does the assumption come from that the MU might be even?

It seems to be so in theory. Unfortunately, we don't see the matchup often, and if we do, the Sheik player is better.

Anecdotally, Sheik has never given me trouble... But I've never gotten to face one in tourney.

 

[Yikarur]

Hmmmm. Let's see, of the 20 characters' dairs listed on page one:

are generally considered good.

are iffy at best.

are bad.

Do I have it wrong in any way? Am I just your typical scrub, insert elitist comment here? Give me feedback.

Pretty wrong. Yoshis dair is extremely good, Falcons dair is ridiculous, Sheiks dair is extremely useful etc. etc.

Robin's Bair is very decent. One of the strongest.

Under average Bairs: Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Rosa, Jr, Wario, Diddy, Mac, Link, Sheik, Pit, Robin, DH, DDD, Fox, Pika, Char, Lucario, ROB, Oli, WFT, DPit, Lucina, Pac, Sonic, M2, Roy, and don't know enough about Miis.

Had to choose about half the cast so sorry if a "good" Bair is in here.

Diddy, Sheik and Fox could be "Top3 bairs of the game".

 

[san.]

Talks about Good D-airs but Ignore's Chrom's Swordgimper's Spinning Drill of Hell :/

Forgot to comment on this. Swordfighter indeed has one of the best dairs in the game, no doubt about that. On 50/0, not many characters can really ever challenge it. On shorter miis, you can combo out of it and it still gimps since you can go deeper with it.

 

[DanGR]

In a vacuum Rosalina (+Luma) has many of the most oppressive attacks in the game. Upair, dair, jab, up smash are all top notch. I can't think of many characters who wouldn't trade their attacks for these ones. Her character physics (besides her godly fox trot) are overall rather undesirable though.

---------

I'm interested in a discussion of which character's physics are the best. Who has the best combination of run, walk, aerial, and other physics?

Mega man has amazing aerial manuveurability + air speed stats. Imagine that with more safe aerial landing options on block. Imagine that on Falcon. !!

The differential between link's fall and fast fall speeds would make for some interesting gameplay if he had a more aggressive kit. Imagine Fox's vertical pressure game with that. !!

More static fall speed differentials (like Ryu's) and low aerial manuveurability (I think squirtle's was really poor) makes character movement more telegraphed than usual. I think it's an under-appreciated facet of character design.

 

[san.]

In a vacuum Rosalina (+Luma) has many of the most oppressive attacks in the game. Upair, dair, jab, up smash are all top notch. I can't think of many characters who wouldn't trade their attacks for these ones. Her character physics (besides her godly fox trot) are overall rather undesirable though.

---------

I'm interested in a discussion of which character's physics are the best. Who has the best combination of run, walk, aerial, and other physics?

Tiny mii brawler seems obviously best to me, since the character has the tradeoff of abysmal range. Give any other character those traits and they'd be great since they naturally have more range.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Pretty wrong. Yoshis dair is extremely good, Falcons dair is ridiculous, Sheiks dair is extremely useful etc. etc.




Diddy, Sheik and Fox could be "Top3 bairs of the game".

Diddy Sheik and Fox? You realize that Ike, Dr. Mario, and DK have back airs that are better than theirs in almost every concievable way, right?
And what exactly is "extremely useful" about Sheik's Dair?

 

[Nabbitnator]

If were talking about dair spikes then the best dairs imo are:



as of multi hit dairs:

Peach's dair is really good too. Unless we're talking about dairs that mainly spike.

 

[Vipermoon]

Diddy Sheik and Fox? You realize that Ike, Dr. Mario, and DK have back airs that are better than theirs in almost every concievable way, right?
And what exactly is "extremely useful" about Sheik's Dair?

I wish I could like this post multiple times. Fox's is slow on start-up, crazy high on end lag, and weak. Diddy's is even weaker. Sheik's is even weaker-er. Sheik used to be above average but then it did 3% less damage. None of these Bairs are bad. No Bair is bad, actually. But Bairs like say Donkey Kong's Bair can do literally everything Diddy's can but better in every way.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Peach's dair is really good too. Unless we're talking about dairs that mainly spike.

I actually almost forgot about peach for multi hit dairs

 

[Nu~]

I wish I could like this post multiple times. Fox's is slow on start-up, crazy high on end lag, and weak. Diddy's is even weaker. Sheik's is even weaker-er. Sheik used to be above average but then it did 3% less damage. None of these Bairs are bad. No Bair is bad, actually. But Bairs like say Donkey Kong's Bair can do literally everything Diddy's can but better in every way.

To be fair, Fox's Bair has a great autocancel window and does 13%. Not at all weak

 

[⑨ball]

In a vacuum Rosalina (+Luma) has many of the most oppressive attacks in the game. Upair, dair, jab, up smash are all top notch. I can't think of many characters who wouldn't trade their attacks for these ones. Her character physics (besides her godly fox trot) are overall rather undesirable though.

---------

I'm interested in a discussion of which character's physics are the best. Who has the best combination of run, walk, aerial, and other physics?

Mega man has amazing aerial manuveurability + air speed stats. Imagine that with more safe aerial landing options on block. Imagine that on Falcon. !!

The differential between link's fall and fast fall speeds would make for some interesting gameplay if he had a more aggressive kit. Imagine Fox's vertical pressure game with that. !!

More static fall speed differentials (like Ryu's) and low aerial manuveurability (I think squirtle's was really poor) makes character movement more telegraphed than usual. I think it's an under-appreciated facet of character design.

Sonic sits just outside of combo food fall speed/weight, great aerial mobility on top of multiple aerial burst options, decent walk speed and the best run. Add in spin dash and the fact that grab armor isn't a thing anymore and I can't really think of anyone else who even comes close to that good of a layout.

 

[Vipermoon]

To be fair, Fox's Bair has a great autocancel window and does 13%. Not at all weak

I understand. But it's knockback is not great and hey, look at Falco's. I mean, it's definitely not bad as long as Fox lands but I'd definitely say under average.

 

[Sir Tundra]

I wish I could like this post multiple times. Fox's is slow on start-up, crazy high on end lag, and weak. Diddy's is even weaker. Sheik's is even weaker-er. Sheik used to be above average but then it did 3% less damage. None of these Bairs are bad. No Bair is bad, actually. But Bairs like say Donkey Kong's Bair can do literally everything Diddy's can but better in every way.

Fox's bair maybe weak and has a slow start up but the move has a crazy auto cancel window. hell you can even auto cancel it if you shff'd it. fox's bair is also great for setting up frame traps if spaced as you can hit the opponent with an up tilt if they attempt to punish you off of shield. also high on end lag? fox's bair only has 15 frames of ending lag when landed which isn't that bad.

 

[David Viran]

Fox's bair maybe weak and has a slow start up but the move has a crazy auto cancel window. hell you can even auto cancel it if you shff'd it. fox's bair is also great for setting up frame traps if spaced as you can hit the opponent with an up tilt if they attempt to punish you off of shield. also high on end lag? fox's bair only has 15 frames of ending lag when landed which isn't that bad.

I think he is talking about if he doesn't land.

 

[Vipermoon]

That's landing lag. Fox's Bair without landing is 49 frames!!! Useless off-stage not that Fox goes off-stage unless he Fairs.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If were talking about dair spikes then the best dairs imo are:



as of multi hit dairs:



edit: added peach

Isn't Rosalina's dair meteor stupidly weak? The move itself is great, especially Luma's version, but the meteor aspect...not so much.

In a vacuum Rosalina (+Luma) has many of the most oppressive attacks in the game. Upair, dair, jab, up smash are all top notch. I can't think of many characters who wouldn't trade their attacks for these ones. Her character physics (besides her godly fox trot) are overall rather undesirable though.

---------

I'm interested in a discussion of which character's physics are the best. Who has the best combination of run, walk, aerial, and other physics?

Mega man has amazing aerial manuveurability + air speed stats. Imagine that with more safe aerial landing options on block. Imagine that on Falcon. !!

The differential between link's fall and fast fall speeds would make for some interesting gameplay if he had a more aggressive kit. Imagine Fox's vertical pressure game with that. !!

More static fall speed differentials (like Ryu's) and low aerial manuveurability (I think squirtle's was really poor) makes character movement more telegraphed than usual. I think it's an under-appreciated facet of character design.

I'll admit I haven't kept up to date with physics properties. What makes Rosalina's foxtrot so amazing?

 

[DanGR]

I'll admit I haven't kept up to date with physics properties. What makes Rosalina's foxtrot so amazing?

It's really short, and you move quickly, so you don't commit as much as other characters while moving on the ground- all while maintaining a pretty decent run speed. Fox trotting around the stage all the time with Rosalina is similar to moving only with perfect pivots. All your ground options are immediately available at any time.

 

[Sir Tundra]

That's landing lag. Fox's Bair without landing is 49 frames!!! Useless off-stage not that Fox goes off-stage unless he Fairs.

my apologize for reading that wrong then.

however just because the move is not good off stage doesn't automatically mean it's under average. bair's have more uses then being able to kill early offstage.

Isn't Rosalina's dair meteor stupidly weak? The move itself is great, especially Luma's version, but the meteor aspect...not so much.

while the move itself is weak when hit with the sweetspot. it has a really disjointed hitbox.

 

[C0rvus]

Can I have very concrete reasons that Marth is better than Roy? I'm sick of having stupid arguments with people on Reddit over this. Everyone is convinced that Roy is a better character, and they defend him with blanket statements and trivial comparisons. I need hard facts, people. Sick of this ****.

Paging @Emblem Lord