Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Ikes]

inhale is like the biggest reason kirby goes even with sheik, sheik just cant deal with how good her own prepatch needles were. Kirby can also crouch under sheik's needles but since kirby's needles come out lower, sheik cant do the same B)

not sure about luigi, but I honestly see it as kirby's favor, having Fireballs with no damage falloff and such a strong combo game that rivals our own (those up tilts go in to goddamn everything) is terrifying.

 

[Yikarur]

Kirby is definitely disasvantaged against Sheik. There is no way you could consider this even. Where does the assumption come from that the MU might be even?

 

[Speed Boost]

Name a top tier MU where Roy does better than Marth.

IDK...that's why I was asking. Everybody here says Marth is better, but I don't use either of them. I was hoping someone would explain what makes Marth better against top tier or even just in general.

 

[⑨ball]

MU knowledge and players. Doesn't matter if sheik has a advantage against MetaKnight, Link, wario, ROB, etc... If they don't know the MU and gimmicks these characters and players can do.

MU knowledge doesn't affect characters, they affect players. When we talk about viability and tier lists we aren't talking about players, we are talking about tool kits. Furthermore tierlists and competitive discussions in general assume high-highest level of play so it's assumed that players know the MU.

Could someone explain to me why Roy isn't better that Marth? Roy is faster, his boxing game is better, his up b kills earlier, his NAir is better, his neutral b is just as good or better, his forward smash kills just as early or earlier, and everyone who doesn't main Marth thinks he is better.

I certainly find him more frustrating to play against than Marth. What are we missing?

Roy has swordsman framedata and conversions, but he gets most of his reward playing like a Brawler, and the least amount of reward playing like he's actually designed. So he loses to the best brawlers as he can't compete with their speed and conversion and also loses to the best swordsmen as they get more for walling him out.

He pretty much has to choose between a high risk/mid-high reward game or a low-mid risk/low reward game. Where as Marth plays as he's designed and reaps huge rewards from doing it correctly.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I know of falln but haven't heard anything in awhile, just know he's posted a bunch of montages of himself lol
Also Luco, ESAM was the head honcho for Pika in brawl as well, but there was still Pikapika K Prime Roller before he made the switch to IC etc.

Top 32 at EVO and CEO. The struggle is real man Falln is the 2nd best rosa and people constantly over look him. That kinda sucks for him his Rosa is really awesome.

 

[Ikes]

Kirby is definitely disasvantaged against Sheik. There is no way you could consider this even. Where does the assumption come from that the MU might be even?

the fact that kirby has such an easy time escaping sheik combos and can almost entirely avoid sheik's kill setups and combo starters? Needles dont work, bouncing fish is avoidable, kirby's hard enough to grab, fair walls can be multi jumped out of

Kirby also gets better needles, so that helps

not to mention kirby has decent kill power to boot.

 

[wedl!!]

speaking of redditors, someone is trying to make peach's castle legal because halberd has a (non-intrusive) cannon and low ceiling. hahah reddit, so wacky

@ Yikarur kirby is thought to go even with the sheik mu because he has the better needles and he "deals with her combos well" (evidence of this being a thing??).

 

[Jaxas]

If absolutely nothing else, I know I've always had a tough time fighting Kirby as Sheik; that's at least partially due to my lack of MU experience, though.

Anyways, I'm not sure I'd say it's in Kirby's favor, but Kirby certainly forces Sheik to play her game differently. Normally you want to abuse Kirby's mobility and keep him out (while preferably forcing an approach), right?
Grounded Needles are essentially useless at filling this role, and if he somehow manages to use inhale on you (as people have pointed out already) he gets easily the best projectile in the game: v1.00 Needles at a height where even another Kirby/Jiggs/G&W can't duck them.

Also, if Kirby gets one of his hitconfirms that leads into a Utilt (or just lands a Utilt in general), it's an easy 40+ percent on Sheik because of how her physics work. Kirby also has a lot more moves that can kill far earlier off a read (which isn't super relevant, but the potential for a stock-ending Fsmash on a read just isn't really something Sheik has).

On the other hand, Kirby's physics make it pretty hard to combo him with the usual stuff (Fair->Fair, Fthrow->BF, Ftilt->Ftilt, etc) meaning you get less out of being in advantage as Sheik. This may be minimized down the line as Sheiks work on their floaty punishes (we'll see what happens), but at it's current state that's how it is.
It's also pretty hard to space Fair safely on shield against a crouching Kirby, and if you whiff (or on PS) he can just Dtilt -> Trip -> Grab -> Pummel -> Throw for... well more than the 5-10% you get from landing Fair.

I've honestly found aerial needles to be the best at... not forcing, but 'encouraging' an approach from Kirby. If you space it right, he can't duck under it of course and his mobility doesn't seem to be good enough to punish run in -> Full Hop -> B-reverse (retreating) needles.

 

[san.]

Apparently a UK player named G~P won a Scottish national using solo Ike. That's another chalkboard slash to improved tournament results.

Still not the best results, but it's definitely improving and on its way to being respectable.


By the way, is there any data listing Sheik's safeness on shield?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

So apparently Reddit has indivisual character subreddits now and the DK one is hilarious. There's like 4 threads and they all involve people complaining about not being able to deal with projectiles. Except for one that's titled "EXPAAAAAAAAND DONG" and another one saying he's only viable with customs.

...and then there's this. I think the smashboards community will get a kick out of this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DonkeyKongMains/comments/3ey95b/dk_matchup_thread/
@ Emblem Lord I want to see your reaction to this sentence in it:
"All Marth really has in this [DK] matchup is his specials and his juggling ability."

 

[Aunt Jemima]

/r/KirbyMains is cancer to your eyes and your mind. Avoid it at all costs. There's a thread titled "We are not Noobs!" though, LOL.

 

[Speed Boost]

So apparently Reddit has indivisual character subreddits now and the DK one is hilarious. There's like 4 threads and they all involve people complaining about not being able to deal with projectiles. Except for one that's titled "EXPAAAAAAAAND DONG" and another one saying he's only viable with customs.

...and then there's this. I think the smashboards community will get a kick out of this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DonkeyKongMains/comments/3ey95b/dk_matchup_thread/
@ Emblem Lord I want to see your reaction to this sentence in it:
"All Marth really has in this [DK] matchup is his specials and his juggling ability."

#whenkeepingitrealgoeswrong Poor guy. I love how he explains the MUs against characters like ROB and Diddy. "Figure out the MU, and win." I'm paraphrasing obviously, but that is basically what he says.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

MU knowledge doesn't affect characters, they affect players. When we talk about viability and tier lists we aren't talking about players, we are talking about tool kits. Furthermore tierlists and competitive discussions in general assume high-highest level of play so it's assumed that players know the MU.

It's pretty hard to discuss such topics assumed at he highest levels of play when only a few players is even close to it and nobody reals knows anybody, but whatevs, I'm off the mark I guess.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Theirs a thread titled if your reading this at the fox mains subbredit.

the description says and I quote:

"Your too late too stop playing the best character in melee. Maining fox is the best disease you'll ever have. embrace 20XX friends"

Apparently this means I'm going to be a quick agile furry with a lag less gun, the ability to emit fire, a reflector that gives me invincibility on frame 1, rapid fast punches, and a squeaky annoying voice in the next 24 hours.

other then that the fox mains subb reddit aint too bad although one person described that up b'ing/ side b'ing luma is a good way to kill luma. Which let's be honest that's some ol bull **** cause using up b as an attack is never a good idea unless your using fox's giga drill break custom.

 

[san.]

Even though Ike's buffs were great and rounded out his neutral and reward, I think Ike's *best stuff wasn't changed (outside of the fair changes).

-Bair is still dumb: 7 frames, 14% damage, kills early, 19 frames of lag.
-Dthrow/Uthrow is still dumb: free throw combos
-Dtilt is still dumb: 7 frames, long disjoint, combos into aerials for free.
-Eruption is still dumb: Can kill most characters in the game with 7 frames of timing (lenient) at like 50% if they're unlucky. Hits way below the stage as well as quite a bit above. Against projectile users, Ike can just jump before charging. All the Ike player needs to do is time it better and he's "outskilled" you with a free kill.
-Pivot grab is still dumb: Scoops most aerial whiffs in the game and his great distance, even despite it getting nerfed from Brawl. (9->10 frames startup, 36/37->41 frames endlag).

I still find myself using all of the above moves freely. His options are simply expanded and spacing game made a lot better with more mixup alternatives. There was a time I wasn't using eruption much until I learned that Ike has almost complete control over whether the opponent lives or dies.

Prepatch, Ike relied heavily on these moves and it was honestly very lopsided, but now Ike has a full moveset of somewhat viable move choices now. I feel that some moves are only a little weak now.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Even though Ike's buffs were great and rounded out his neutral and reward, I think Ike's *best stuff wasn't changed (outside of the fair changes).

-Bair is still dumb: 7 frames, 14% damage, kills early, 19 frames of lag.
-Dthrow/Uthrow is still dumb: free throw combos
-Dtilt is still dumb: 7 frames, long disjoint, combos into aerials for free.
-Eruption is still dumb: Can kill most characters in the game with 7 frames of timing (lenient) at like 50% if they're unlucky. Hits way below the stage as well as quite a bit above. Against projectile users, Ike can just jump before charging. All the Ike player needs to do is time it better and he's "outskilled" you with a free kill.
-Pivot grab is still dumb: Scoops most aerial whiffs in the game and his great distance, even despite it getting nerfed from Brawl. (9->10 frames startup, 36/37->41 frames endlag).

I still find myself using all of the above moves freely. His options are simply expanded and spacing game made a lot better with more mixup alternatives. There was a time I wasn't using eruption much until I learned that Ike has almost complete control over whether the opponent lives or dies.

Prepatch, Ike relied heavily on these moves and it was honestly very lopsided, but now Ike has a full moveset of somewhat viable move choices now. I feel that some moves are only a little weak now.

Every "dumb" thing about Ike is what I like most about him.
Is his Bair the best bair in the game?

 

[C0rvus]

Every "dumb" thing about Ike is what I like most about him.
Is his Bair the best bair in the game?

You could make an argument for Doc, Falco and DK, but Ike might have it with that disjoint, damage, kill power, and short hop auto cancel. A seriously great move that you need to respect at all times.

 

[san.]

Every "dumb" thing about Ike is what I like most about him.
Is his Bair the best bair in the game?

No, the FAF isn't as good in the air as many others. Many other bairs are faster, too, at 4-6 frames. One of the best killing bairs, though.

 

[ShortcutButton]

Monado Kirby is broken as **** & i love it.
Kirby loses the MU pretty badly though, Shulk keeps him out pretty easily.

I disagree, Kirby must be an "objective" counterpick to Shulk because no sane Shulk wants to fight a monado kirby.

 

[wedl!!]

Is his Bair the best bair in the game?

i think that award goes to tbh (maybe ?). it's not as fast as some other bairs, but it's definitely strong.

 

[Ffamran]

Apparently a UK player named G~P won a Scottish national using solo Ike. That's another chalkboard slash to improved tournament results.

Still not the best results, but it's definitely improving and on its way to being respectable.


By the way, is there any data listing Sheik's safeness on shield?

If only Ragnell was a claymore... Well, at least we know Ike has some Highlander blood in him.

Every "dumb" thing about Ike is what I like most about him.
Is his Bair the best bair in the game?

It's useful, it's fast, especially for Ike, it does good damage, has good range, and it kills well. The best? Maybe not, but it's probably among the top Bairs including ZSS, DK, Jigglypuff?, and Dr. Mario's. Maybe Link, Greninja, Palutena, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf?, Fox, Falco, and Ryu's? Of those maybes, Link and Greninja's don't kill well, but they are quick and useful pokes, free damage, and combo extenders. If we're talking about the best Bair in terms of power/speed, Falco wins hands down, but in other stuff like range, approach, shield stun, shield pressure, and other utilities, DK, Dr. Mario, and Ike are probably better. Fox's slow and weaker than ZSS's, but because of how it works and how he works, it's pretty good.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Every "dumb" thing about Ike is what I like most about him.
Is his Bair the best bair in the game?

Best B-air imo is a tossup between Falcon and Megaman B-air. Megaman's B-air has a ******** hitbox vertically and horizontally, and it's multihit (which means safer on perfect shield). Falcon's B-air has just generally insane frame data for its power and range.

 

[C0rvus]

A lot of good back airs in this game. Down airs, on the other hand...

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Best B-air imo is a tossup between Falcon and Megaman B-air. Megaman's B-air has a ******** hitbox vertically and horizontally, and it's multihit (which means safer on perfect shield). Falcon's B-air has just generally insane frame data for its power and range.

Falco has the best back air IMO

 

[wedl!!]

If only Ragnell was a claymore... Well, at least we know Ike has some Highlander blood in him.

what bad mus does even have? no one ever mentions him

 

[Spinosaurus]

A lot of good back airs in this game. Down airs, on the other hand...

This is something I brought up to my friends before

Does anyone in this game even have a bad back air?

 

[hypersonicJD]

Sonic's Bair is really really good. And his down air isn't bad offstage.

The Donkey Kong reddit match-up thing was really hilarious. Donkey Kong cannot combo Fox that easily at all. And he has a lot of trouble with Fox because he is just too damn fast for Donkey Kong. Sure, expand dong can wall Fox out for a bit. But it won't do much difference.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This is something I brought up to my friends before

Does anyone in this game even have a bad back air?

I know sheik is a pretty bad MU for him. There's probably others.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Sonic's Bair is really really good. And his down air isn't bad offstage.

The Donkey Kong reddit match-up thing was really hilarious. Donkey Kong cannot combo Fox that easily at all. And he has a lot of trouble with Fox because he is just too damn fast for Donkey Kong. Sure, expand dong can wall Fox out for a bit. But it won't do much difference.

Actually they were right about Fox getting combo'd. Cargo up toss-> up air works on him longer than anyone, as well as Bair -> Bair -> Bair.
But what really destroys DK in this matchup is the double jab combo. I really don't know why this isn't brought up more, because it swings the matchup from like 55:45 Fox to like 65:35 Fox. It works on DK forever and it's frame 2. Jab 2-> Up or Down smash works at death percents. Nair-> Usmash and Dair-> Usmash also work on DK really well. DK's disadvantage state is booty and Fox's advantage is one of the best in the game. Combined with DK's poor neutral and Fox's reliable approach options... it ain't good for DK. The only thing he has on Fox is offstage edgeguarding and some combos if DK ever SOMEHOW manages to land the grab / first hit.

This is something I brought up to my friends before

Does anyone in this game even have a bad back air?

Little Mac.

 

[Ikes]

You could make an argument for Doc, Falco and DK, but Ike might have it with that disjoint, damage, kill power, and short hop auto cancel. A seriously great move that you need to respect at all times.

DK's is the best. you can shorthop 2 with virtually no lag and its got an enormous hitbox as well as strong damage output.

 

[Nobie]

Re: playing low tiers, or even mid tiers (which some define as unviable)

I think it's in many ways more fun and exciting to have to play around a character's core weaknesses, things that are just fundamentally issues about a character, rather than picking someone who's decent to fantastic in every way. Doesn't mean people who use those characters are bad or anything, but like when you're Dedede for example and you have mobility issues, having no easy solution around being so generally slow becomes part of the appeal of playing the character. As long as solutions are possible at all, it's all cool.

 

[Nu~]

This is something I brought up to my friends before

Does anyone in this game even have a bad back air?

Little Mac

 

[ShortcutButton]

Down airs, on the other hand...

Hmmmm. Let's see, of the 20 characters' dairs listed on page one:

are generally considered good.

are iffy at best.

are bad.

Do I have it wrong in any way? Am I just your typical scrub, insert elitist comment here? Give me feedback.

 

[wedl!!]

sheiks bair is integral to her edgeuarding game

zss' is fairly big and kills early, same goes for ness.

luc's bair is actually one of his better moves, considering it's decently fast and has a good hitbox.

none of those character have bad bairs except for maybe oli

 

[Mr. Johan]

This is something I brought up to my friends before

Does anyone in this game even have a bad back air?

Robin on a bad day. Little Mac.

Maybe even the Pits as well. Or at the least its nowhere near a threat as it was in Brawl.

 

[C0rvus]

Re: playing low tiers, or even mid tiers (which some define as unviable)

I think it's in many ways more fun and exciting to have to play around a character's core weaknesses, things that are just fundamentally issues about a character, rather than picking someone who's decent to fantastic in every way. Doesn't mean people who use those characters are bad or anything, but like when you're Dedede for example and you have mobility issues, having no easy solution around being so generally slow becomes part of the appeal of playing the character. As long as solutions are possible at all, it's all cool.

The only thing i really have to say against low tiers is that the weaknesses you have to deal with (but mind you, every character has these, just some are bigger than others ofc) get directly in the way of you playing against your opponent. The goal is to play the "real game" between you and your opponent. It's the stuff that gets in the way that makes it interesting I guess (character and MU knowledge, etc). You ave to simultaneously deal with that stuff and the mindgames and the game states all at once, which is why top players are top players, and I am not.

Hmmmm. Let's see, of the 20 characters' dairs listed on page one:

are generally considered good.

are iffy at best.

are bad.

Do I have it wrong in any way? Am I just your typical scrub, insert elitist comment here? Give me feedback.

A decent list. I would say that has a pretty good down air. It's fast, stalls his descent, and can stage spike and kill. I cannot speak for or since they just seem like mediocre spikes to me, but Pit's is fast at least. 's is pretty good too, since you can mix short hop auto cancelling it or not, since it has a landing hitbox when not AC'ed. 's seems decent for shield pressure, but I've heard in this thread that you can punish it from your shield if you spot dodge the last hit, so it's probably in the right spot.

Down airs rarely define a character's aerial kit, but those with usable ones should consider themselves lucky.

 

[DD_]

Robin on a bad day. Little Mac.

Maybe even the Pits as well. Or at the least its nowhere near a threat as it was in Brawl.

Pit's bair is a really solid offstage option. I guess it can be seen a little niche but hitting with it is never a bad thing. Plus IIRC it has a decent disjoint going on as well.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I guess people don't realize that playing different characters teach you different things and lessons (a sheik player can learn a ton about spacing an keep out playing as D3), and can up your game as a player.

 

[Vipermoon]

Robin's Bair is very decent. One of the strongest.

Under average Bairs: Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Rosa, Jr, Wario, Diddy, Mac, Link, Sheik, Pit, Robin, DH, DDD, Fox, Pika, Char, Lucario, ROB, Oli, WFT, DPit, Lucina, Pac, Sonic, M2, Roy, and don't know enough about Miis.

Had to choose about half the cast so sorry if a "good" Bair is in here.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Could someone explain to me why Roy isn't better that Marth? Roy is faster, his boxing game is better, his up b kills earlier, his NAir is better, his neutral b is just as good or better, his forward smash kills just as early or earlier, and everyone who doesn't main Marth thinks he is better.

I certainly find him more frustrating to play against than Marth. What are we missing?

Stop it right now