Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Speed Boost]

Not to spoil the news or anything for all of you cool cats, but this just came up on FB for me and thought I would share:

https://twitter.com/SmashBrosJP/status/626286066929000448

Apparently it translates to a new stage and tournament mode. We can only speculate on balance patches and it definitely doesn't say anything about new characters. Still, pretty hype.

And Smog Frog, I also believe Luigi is not a top 5 character. I think he's top 10, but at the moment his results and theory (and MU spread) don't put him in the same league as the other contenders for top 5.

I also agree about Luigi. Results point toward a top 5 that includes Sheik, Diddy, ZSS, Rosalina and Ness.

 

[C0rvus]

Well Luigi at least has results that keep him in top 10. You could at least partially attribute that to how user friendly he is. He gets soft countered by a few characters, which I think will eventually leave him at least out of top 5, possibly top 10 as well. Right now he's in there, though. No doubt. Maybe if more people played Mega Man, Wario, and Rosalina, then Luigis would be ousted in tournament, but those are all pretty unpopular characters.

 

[Smog Frog]

i dont think results should dictate whether or not a character stays top 10. results can be used to prove theory, which is a valid factor in whether or not a character is top 10. and only takes locals. i think that speaks volumes about how good he truly is. it somewhat proves a point of theory that he gets beaten by better players with better fundamentals.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Charizard is still bad....

*Charizard can now kill at 90 with arguably the best grab in the game*
Smashboards: ...
Smashboards: He isn't any better.

EDIT: About Luigi, I've come to learn that he is similar to the likes of Little Mac. When you fight him, you have to play the game differently. The matchup is something you have to learn itself. If you fight him the way you would fight a Bowser, well then of course you'll think he's top 3! You gotta change the way you play against him.

 

[Speed Boost]

i dont think results should dictate whether or not a character stays top 10. results can be used to prove theory, which is a valid factor in whether or not a character is top 10. and only takes locals. i think that speaks volumes about how good he truly is. it somewhat proves a point of theory that he gets beaten by better players with better fundamentals.

I can understand your train of though on this, but I think you are overlooking some things. You are discounting National Results based on the idea that Luigi might not have been beaten by better characters, just better players, right?

However, the same idea could be used to discount local results, perhaps to a greater degree since there are typically fewer players playing at a high level. This is why we typically hold National Results to be better evidence. There are just more really good players.

In some of the most competitive regions, we don't see a lot of Luigi success(Tri-state, Florida).

 

[Smog Frog]

i'm using national results to prove that he loses to better players. its common knowledge he has ****ty matchups against the best characters in the game.

 

[Sinister Slush]

i'm using national results to prove that he loses to better players. its common knowledge he has ****ty matchups against the best characters in the game.

Tier lists are based mostly on results though, rest is basically the 50 or so BBR members (an example for now) sitting on a round table presenting their tier list. If 30 present Snake as 3rd best but 20 5th best, they'll prolly discuss it for a bit and choose either 4th or 5th while looking at national and regional results.

You can say Rosalina is top 3, but then you realize the only Rosalina's doing anything is Dabuz and kinda Xaltis? Similar to Pikachu, we all wanna put him in top 5 but ESAM only and while he's doing well at Nationals and his region, he's the only one representing.
Then we have the case of Luigi, he's not showing up all that much at nationals but on a regional/local scale he's played a lot and has tournament wins. Along with some top players picking him up as secondaries or had him as one for awhile (false DEHF etc.)

Ness does well at nationals and regionals too I believe, but he gets ****** by Rosalina Sheik and a competent Luigi. Does that mean he shouldn't be top 5? Who knows.

 

[Luigi player]

*Charizard can now kill at 90 with arguably the best grab in the game*
Smashboards: ...
Smashboards: He isn't any better.

Charizards grab isn't (overall) the best in the game. His dashgrab sucks really bad, at least. Shieldgrabbing is pretty good, though.

Also yesterday I've lived a Charizard uthrow at ~175 with MK on Smashville (he didn't have rage though). Is this throw still overrated?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Tier lists are based mostly on results though, rest is basically the 50 or so BBR members (an example for now) sitting on a round table presenting their tier list. If 30 present Snake as 3rd best but 20 5th best, they'll prolly discuss it for a bit and choose either 4th or 5th while looking at national and regional results.

You can say Rosalina is top 3, but then you realize the only Rosalina's doing anything is Dabuz and kinda Xaltis? Similar to Pikachu, we all wanna put him in top 5 but ESAM only and while he's doing well at Nationals and his region, he's the only one representing.
Then we have the case of Luigi, he's not showing up all that much at nationals but on a regional/local scale he's played a lot and has tournament wins. Along with some top players picking him up as secondaries or had him as one for awhile (false DEHF etc.)

Ness does well at nationals and regionals too I believe, but he gets ****** by Rosalina Sheik and a competent Luigi. Does that mean he shouldn't be top 5? Who knows.

Doesn't Falln have a good Rosalina?

 

[Luco]

I struggle to make a top 5. I do believe Falln contributes enough to Rosa's success to warrant her a top spot, and I'm going to be totally frank with you - even just one top player doing exceedingly well hasn't stopped us before (please refer to Brawl Pikachu) so Dabuz doing that well with Rosa is probably enough in my books to have this character as a top 5.

Top 3 is exceedingly clear for me right now, but I don't expect people to have to share this view. In order, I believe and are the best. Sheik has a whole host of players, ZSS has Nairo and NR and Rosa has Dabuz and Falln. These characters see consistent top results with their top players. I am of the opinion that ZeRo, Nairo and Dabuz are the top 3 US players in that order and whilst this may be argued to skew results, ZSS and Rosa still have dominating strengths and have at least one other top or high level player taking results. It's also important to note that ZSS is Sonic and MK's worst MU, whilst Rosa basically bars Ness from being top 5 (if just).

The next 2 characters in my mind are difficult to order. (i'll get to these two) and all come to mind.

Diddy has shown he has the capabilities to remain top tier. ZeRo still uses him and wins, and I seem to recall another player (Ally?) used him in either CEO or EVO. Is this enough to keep him top 5? He's certainly not where he once was. His MUs have significantly skewed since the patch. I'm not sure.

Mario is in a somewhat similar boat, where Ally gets consistent results but that's about it. Mario has a considerably more even MU spread than his brother (and doesn't lose hard to anyone afaik?), which probably means a top player will be more likely to do well with him at nationals. But... I don't know.

Pikachu I would normally say is the most likely to be in top 5, but I've heard some weird things about him post-patch. His ledge hang time nerf apparently stops his edge-guarding being incredible and now merely makes it good. Solidsense has mentioned this to me a few times, and it's true that Pika has at least a few MUs he has issues with at this stage of the meta. At the same time....

Luigi is a weird case. His results have been a little mixed as of late, and my suspicion is that his counters will emerge more frequently in national-scale tournaments and begin to bar him from a top 5 spot. That being said, his tools are incredibly dominating and he frequently takes top spots at regionals and locals and, with the exception of EVO, he has been seen in majors too. Might need more time to figure out what EVO meant exactly for this fella.

Ness is similarly strange. With at least 3 top players and a host of high-level ones he regularly takes top spots at both locals and nationals - however he is prevented from going any higher with a significant hard counter played by one of the top 3 players in the US. He also has soft counters in Sonic, Luigi and Sheik which make life somewhat difficult (although funnily enough beating ZSS). People often consider him a viable contender for top 5 but his average neutral and bad disadvantage mean most boards consider him one of their better top tier MUs (I literally can't think of any board other than like, Robin, who consider Ness a particularly bad MU).

Then there's Fox, who has a few top level players behind him and gets results. I'm not too sure what is keeping Fox out of top 5 actually, the more I think about it. He has strong tools for most situations, and other than Sheik what are his bad MUs (Rosa maybe)? Some might say that keeps him out but... Who exactly is better than him then?

And Sonic, who I think is probably a viable pick for top 5 too, but struggles with ZSS at top level as a hard-ish counter (as evidenced by NRs killing spree at CEO). His tools are overwhelming for quite a large majority of the cast and again, even though he received nerfs... Who exactly is better than him?


If I were absolutely forced to make a top 5, considering all this, I would probably say this in order:

S:
A:

I would probably then put as just trailing behind at #6, and alternating #7 and #8, and and alternating #9 and #10. They all have a lot going for them, and I don't expect everyone to share my opinion. Directly behind those characters I would expect to see and .

What do you guys think? With all the evidence you can think of, how would you construct a top 5? What do you believe each character has going for them?

 

[Smog Frog]

i'd construct a similar top 5. top 10 however, would be different. i'd swap with . in top 5 i'd switch the woodland animals around

also @ Dabuz himself thinks that vs isnt that bad. he says the players psyche themselves out and make it hard to win based on mentality.

 

[Luco]

i'd construct a similar top 5. top 10 however, would be different. i'd swap with . in top 5 i'd switch the woodland animals around

also @ Dabuz himself thinks that vs isnt that bad. he says the players psyche themselves out and make it hard to win based on mentality.

And I agree with him. Rosa vs Ness isn't that bad - but I am a big believer of the now, and in the now Ness is consistently losing to top rosa mains. I can't ignore that, even if in the future I believe that MU WILL turn into a -1. It's hilarious how hard we edge-guard Rosa considering all the stigma that surrounds her when we're offstage.

I considered swapping Fox and Sonic, originally I was going to have Sonic as #4 but I considered recent results and as a whole Fox is doing better, so I left it in that order.

 

[Coffee™]

Tier lists are based mostly on results though...

They really shouldn't be though. Results have too many possible variables. Ideally they should be based on matchups and overall character tools.

 

[Lotuz]

Can we agree on Falcon being at least somewhat overrated? Given his complete lack of results in the US i honestly can't see him being high tier. In theory he seems to lose against pretty much every top tier and his poor negative state and bad recovery are a huge flaw. Then again, he seems to do okay in Japan with Saiya and Pichi getting good results.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Doesn't Falln have a good Rosalina?

I know of falln but haven't heard anything in awhile, just know he's posted a bunch of montages of himself lol
Also Luco, ESAM was the head honcho for Pika in brawl as well, but there was still Pikapika K Prime Roller before he made the switch to IC etc.

 

[DanGR]

The Ness/Rosalina matchup really isn't all that bad for Ness. Most people underrate how hard Dabuz reads his Ness opponents at these large events. It's certainly not a +2/70:30 or w/e.

 

[Sir Tundra]

I struggle to make a top 5. I do believe Falln contributes enough to Rosa's success to warrant her a top spot, and I'm going to be totally frank with you - even just one top player doing exceedingly well hasn't stopped us before (please refer to Brawl Pikachu) so Dabuz doing that well with Rosa is probably enough in my books to have this character as a top 5.

Top 3 is exceedingly clear for me right now, but I don't expect people to have to share this view. In order, I believe and are the best. Sheik has a whole host of players, ZSS has Nairo and NR and Rosa has Dabuz and Falln. These characters see consistent top results with their top players. I am of the opinion that ZeRo, Nairo and Dabuz are the top 3 US players in that order and whilst this may be argued to skew results, ZSS and Rosa still have dominating strengths and have at least one other top or high level player taking results. It's also important to note that ZSS is Sonic and MK's worst MU, whilst Rosa basically bars Ness from being top 5 (if just).

The next 2 characters in my mind are difficult to order. (i'll get to these two) and all come to mind.

Diddy has shown he has the capabilities to remain top tier. ZeRo still uses him and wins, and I seem to recall another player (Ally?) used him in either CEO or EVO. Is this enough to keep him top 5? He's certainly not where he once was. His MUs have significantly skewed since the patch. I'm not sure.

Mario is in a somewhat similar boat, where Ally gets consistent results but that's about it. Mario has a considerably more even MU spread than his brother (and doesn't lose hard to anyone afaik?), which probably means a top player will be more likely to do well with him at nationals. But... I don't know.

Pikachu I would normally say is the most likely to be in top 5, but I've heard some weird things about him post-patch. His ledge hang time nerf apparently stops his edge-guarding being incredible and now merely makes it good. Solidsense has mentioned this to me a few times, and it's true that Pika has at least a few MUs he has issues with at this stage of the meta. At the same time....

Luigi is a weird case. His results have been a little mixed as of late, and my suspicion is that his counters will emerge more frequently in national-scale tournaments and begin to bar him from a top 5 spot. That being said, his tools are incredibly dominating and he frequently takes top spots at regionals and locals and, with the exception of EVO, he has been seen in majors too. Might need more time to figure out what EVO meant exactly for this fella.

Ness is similarly strange. With at least 3 top players and a host of high-level ones he regularly takes top spots at both locals and nationals - however he is prevented from going any higher with a significant hard counter played by one of the top 3 players in the US. He also has soft counters in Sonic, Luigi and Sheik which make life somewhat difficult (although funnily enough beating ZSS). People often consider him a viable contender for top 5 but his average neutral and bad disadvantage mean most boards consider him one of their better top tier MUs (I literally can't think of any board other than like, Robin, who consider Ness a particularly bad MU).

Then there's Fox, who has a few top level players behind him and gets results. I'm not too sure what is keeping Fox out of top 5 actually, the more I think about it. He has strong tools for most situations, and other than Sheik what are his bad MUs (Rosa maybe)? Some might say that keeps him out but... Who exactly is better than him then?

And Sonic, who I think is probably a viable pick for top 5 too, but struggles with ZSS at top level as a hard-ish counter (as evidenced by NRs killing spree at CEO). His tools are overwhelming for quite a large majority of the cast and again, even though he received nerfs... Who exactly is better than him?


If I were absolutely forced to make a top 5, considering all this, I would probably say this in order:

S:
A:

I would probably then put as just trailing behind at #6, and alternating #7 and #8, and and alternating #9 and #10. They all have a lot going for them, and I don't expect everyone to share my opinion. Directly behind those characters I would expect to see and .

What do you guys think? With all the evidence you can think of, how would you construct a top 5? What do you believe each character has going for them?

The main reason why people keep fox out of top 5 is because of how easy it is to edge guard him offstage due to his predictable recovery and his light weight.
as of bad matchups.. His bad matchups besides and are and

Now does having a predictable recovery and a light weight a good reason to keep him off of top 5?

I don't think it should considering that fox had this problem in every smash game he was in and he's been doing fine.

Uh, the only reason Doc was better than Mario was space animal matchups where his D-throw D-smash combo actually matters. He was strictly worse than Mario in Melee in almost every other matchup aside from aforementioned spacies, and then Ganon and Samus which are like among the only matchups where Doc's better B-air gimps actually make a real difference.

Melee Mario had longer chaingrabs, better damage on most aerials, a Jab combo that couldn't be CC punished, and a GODLIKE F-smash for neutral. Especially due to his longer chaingrabs, he did noticeably better against Sheik and most of the lower tier characters (the latter of whom he generally invalidated, while Doc doesn't invalidate anyone because his chaingrabs aren't nearly that stupid). Mario's B-air not gimping as hard rarely ever mattered when most recoveries were just godawful in Melee and died to invincible ledgedrop B-air -> edgehog either way. Thanks to F-smash, Marth, Peach, and ICs matchups are noticeably better for Mario (especially ICs matchup. Doc loses this one 45/55, Mario wins 65/35 because his superior Jab combo and F-smash in combination with B-throw ruin the ICs completely in neutral).

So uh...how the hell do you ever assume that Doc was better than Mario in every way in Melee? Sure Mario is slightly better in Smash 4, but Doc has legitimate advantages that can't be ignored. Mario can't kill you for platform camping or ledge resetting in this game. Doc however has his Up-B for killing people in the air and out of shield, and Tornado/D-air for edgeguarding, not to mention Doc has real Jab cancel strings into Up-B, while Mario's Jab cancel is negative on hit. Doc's lower short hop also matters a lot especially against crouching and short characters, on top of his B-air doing a whopping 14%, which is effectively a Mario combo by itself.

You know I keep forgetting that doc was only better because of his matchup against the spacies in melee.

as of doc in smash 4. yes doc has some advantages against like his tornado/d-air for edge guarding ,his short hop helping against crouching/short characters, and a meaty bair as you mention.

But those don't matter when doc has all these disadvantages like his slower mobility, a combo game that's really only good against heavy character's/fast fallers, and a piss poor recovery which can be slightly improved with his tornado. which are some pretty big weakness's

I will admit that when I said that mario being better then doc in almost every way was a bit of an overstatement. but too say mario is only slightly better then doc in smash 4 is an understatement. saying mario is only slightly better then doc would imply that doc would to have almost as much advantages as mario while also having almost as much success as mario in tournaments. then agains I could be overreacting here.

as of doc being able to jab cancel into up b.. I pretty sure the opponent can shield in the middle of the jab cancel but then I could be wrong.

 

[Speed Boost]

The Ness/Rosalina matchup really isn't all that bad for Ness. Most people underrate how hard Dabuz reads his Ness opponents at these large events. It's certainly not a +2/70:30 or w/e.

When I brought it up the other day @ Dabuz said it was +2/60:40 is Rosa's favor. To be fair if he was a Ness player I would take that assessment completely differently. I'm not sure if FOW or Shaky would agree or not. Typically the winning side says "it's not as bad as you think" while the losing side thinks it's harder.

Personally, I just think Dabuz is a better player than any if the Ness players right now. It's hard to tell how a MU go if the opponents aren't equaly skilled.

 

[Dabuz]

Larry ran into me in losers of CEO and Evo (and winners of CEO), THAT is what is keeping fox back lmfao. Def. in her favor slightly because jab does 30-40 damage on him. Does fox really lose to anyone else though?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

why are we still trying to factor in solo viability when thinking about how well a character should do in tournaments?
it's dumb to do such if you can't even solo main sheik. MU knowledge is the most important thing to have along with powerful fundamentals.

 

[Speed Boost]

Larry ran into me in losers of CEO and Evo (and winners of CEO), THAT is what is keeping fox back lmfao. Def. in her favor slightly because jab does 30-40 damage on him. Does fox really lose to anyone else though?

So would you agree with a Sheik, Diddy, ZSS, Rosa, Fox top 5? How do you feel about Diddy after the nerfs? I think he is still top 5 at least.

 

[⑨ball]

why are we still trying to factor in solo viability when thinking about how well a character should do in tournaments?
it's dumb to do such if you can't even solo main sheik. MU knowledge is the most important thing to have along with powerful fundamentals.

You can't?
Who are we saying is the Sheik counter this week?

 

[Ikes]

meta knight, apparently

it's still kirby, btw

 

[Routa]

You can't?
Who are we saying is the Sheik counter this week?

Zelda ofc

 

[Deleted member]

You can't?
Who are we saying is the Sheik counter this week?

1111 Mii Swordfighter.

 

[Dabuz]

So would you agree with a Sheik, Diddy, ZSS, Rosa, Fox top 5? How do you feel about Diddy after the nerfs? I think he is still top 5 at least.

Sheik ZSS are top 2, after that it's really hard to say because every top tier has a disconnect between their results and their theoretical matchup spread. You could argue Rosa/ Diddy top 5 based on results and Mario/ Sonic top 5 based on matchup spread, but that balances out to make them comparable. I think the closest #3 would be Ness because he has the best balance of tournament results and MUs.

 

[C0rvus]

So people on Reddit are still calling Roy better than Marth and are also trying to get Peach's Castle 64 to be a legal stage. Does anyone on that website actually play this game in tournament?

This week's Sheik counter is still Meta Knight, but I think that it's Shulk because I beat a For Glory Sheik with Shulk once. Did I mention how much potential Shulk has? Tons. That would explain why I always lose with him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Larry ran into me in losers of CEO and Evo (and winners of CEO), THAT is what is keeping fox back lmfao. Def. in her favor slightly because jab does 30-40 damage on him. Does fox really lose to anyone else though?

Luigi beats Fox because of better reward from basic bread and butter stuff. There's room for improvement on the Fox players' part in this matchup but idk if it's actually enough to push it towards even. Pikachu probably has a slight advantage because there's no situation where Fox directly outperforms him but Pikachu can do offstage stuff to Fox. Little Mac is atually really hard for Fox because he's very very good at punishing Fox' approaches and you can't just run away from LM like you can run away from Luigi. I still think Yoshi is Fox' worst matchup but apparently I'm the only one who thinks Yoshi wins the matchup.

Generally, Fox can keep these matchups even because there's no character he cannot handle in neutral. So as long as you manage to not get into a disadvantaged position you can win everything as Fox. Things can get kinda ugly once you're in a disadvantaged position as Fox though.

 

[Luco]

I know of falln but haven't heard anything in awhile, just know he's posted a bunch of montages of himself lol
Also Luco, ESAM was the head honcho for Pika in brawl as well, but there was still Pikapika K Prime Roller before he made the switch to IC etc.

I knew of K Prime, but I wasn't aware any of these guys were getting the kind of results that proved Pika to be as high as he was. But I do take your point.

 

[Ikes]

so when people consider kirby's viability, they consider specific matchupsright? like they consider that each matchup gives him a different copy ability,right? because certain matchups could be heavily skewed simply by kirby having the opponents neutral special.

Take Luigi for example, Kirby gets luigi's fireballs and thus gets to do nearly the same thing luigi does to anyone else with them. and AFAIK kirby has prepatch fireballs which would make them even better

or how against sheik kirby gets sheiks prepatch needles.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

You can't?
Who are we saying is the Sheik counter this week?

MU knowledge and players. Doesn't matter if sheik has a advantage against MetaKnight, Link, wario, ROB, etc... If they don't know the MU and gimmicks these characters and players can do.

 

[Speed Boost]

Could someone explain to me why Roy isn't better that Marth? Roy is faster, his boxing game is better, his up b kills earlier, his NAir is better, his neutral b is just as good or better, his forward smash kills just as early or earlier, and everyone who doesn't main Marth thinks he is better.

I certainly find him more frustrating to play against than Marth. What are we missing?

 

[Luco]

so when people consider kirby's viability, they consider specific matchupsright? like they consider that each matchup gives him a different copy ability,right? because certain matchups could be heavily skewed simply by kirby having the opponents neutral special.

Take Luigi for example, Kirby gets luigi's fireballs and thus gets to do nearly the same thing luigi does to anyone else with them. and AFAIK kirby has prepatch fireballs which would make them even better

or how against sheik kirby gets sheiks prepatch needles.

I mean, Monado arts kirby is actually amazing.

I would love it if the Shulk MU was Kirby's favour purely because of that.

 

[KenMeister]

Could someone explain to me why Roy isn't better that Marth? Roy is faster, his boxing game is better, his up b kills earlier, his NAir is better, his neutral b is just as good or better, his forward smash kills just as early or earlier, and everyone who doesn't main Marth thinks he is better.

I certainly find him more frustrating to play against than Marth. What are we missing?

A lot of people tend to forget Marth's jab greatly improved his boxing and kill setup game. He also plays neutral better and his disadvantaged state isn't nearly as bad as Roy's.

 

[Dabuz]

Luigi beats Fox because of better reward from basic bread and butter stuff. There's room for improvement on the Fox players' part in this matchup but idk if it's actually enough to push it towards even. Pikachu probably has a slight advantage because there's no situation where Fox directly outperforms him but Pikachu can do offstage stuff to Fox. Little Mac is atually really hard for Fox because he's very very good at punishing Fox' approaches and you can't just run away from LM like you can run away from Luigi. I still think Yoshi is Fox' worst matchup but apparently I'm the only one who thinks Yoshi wins the matchup.

Generally, Fox can keep these matchups even because there's no character he cannot handle in neutral. So as long as you manage to not get into a disadvantaged position you can win everything as Fox. Things can get kinda ugly once you're in a disadvantaged position as Fox though.

Then I could also see fox as #3, he has good results across a lot of players and those aren't exactly the worst MUs to lose.

 

[Ffamran]

So, apparently Falco has 2 ledge grab abuse moves. Jab at the ledge and Blaster sniping. When someone is hit, they cannot grab the ledge for 30 frames. Cyro just used this with jab 1 during this online tournament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEK2JbZYbQg.

I haven't watched the stream, but I think TheReflexWonder also did it: http://www.twitch.tv/hsvasl, since another user mentioned jab at the ledge and Reflex responded.

Getting anything off of not finishing your Jab requires your opponent not to press buttons; I don't think either of those are even close to reliable if you can't get your opponent to fear you. Lingering hitboxes are usually quite safe to hit with, though, so I would tell people to Jab offstage opponents into N-Air or F-Air if they're trying to hedge their bets and get follow-ups more often.

Remember that people cannot grab the ledge for 30 frames after getting out of hitlag freeze, so they generally don't feel comfortable using their recovery immediately after being Jabbed in that state. That's what gives you time to potentially follow up.

I know he can use Dtilt, Down Smash, and angled Ftilt to catch people, but those are narrow hitboxes compared to his jab not to mention the lower end lag and lower knockback allowing him to followup with something else after jab. Commitment-wise, jab isn't much and there's also the chance for Falco to just go rapid jab and cancel it at the ledge.

Little Mac, Captain Falcon, Fox, and Meta Knight can all jab at the ledge, but it's not like jab canceling and their hitboxes are narrow except for Meta Knight. I'm curious if other characters can do this. Marth, Lucina, and Diddy maybe? Perhaps Sheik and Charizard, but I don't remember if their jab 1 cover the ground. Link, Toon Link, and Triple D might work or not...

 

[adom4]

I mean, Monado arts kirby is actually amazing.

I would love it if the Shulk MU was Kirby's favour purely because of that.

Monado Kirby is broken as **** & i love it.
Kirby loses the MU pretty badly though, Shulk keeps him out pretty easily.

 

[warionumbah2]

Could someone explain to me why Roy isn't better that Marth? Roy is faster, his boxing game is better, his up b kills earlier, his NAir is better, his neutral b is just as good or better, his forward smash kills just as early or earlier, and everyone who doesn't main Marth thinks he is better.

I certainly find him more frustrating to play against than Marth. What are we missing?

Name a top tier MU where Roy does better than Marth.

 

[Luco]

@ Speed Boost Sorry, forgot to mention this but yeah, this is actually one of those cases where the top players agree. I'm 95% sure Shaky has said a very similar thing before, that the Ness v Rosa isn't that bad.

I faced one last tournament myself and the set was really dang close. The neutral isn't horrifying and Rosalina sucks offstage, what really seals the deal is we dislike being in disadvantage more. Being Juggled by Rosa is pretty killer for us. Also our normally incredible advantaged state is made less incredible because we often can't follow up off a grab.

@ adom4 Awwwww that's such a shame. I'd like to see monado kirby in teams though :D

 

[C0rvus]

So, apparently Falco has 2 ledge grab abuse moves. Jab at the ledge and Blaster sniping. When someone is hit, they cannot grab the ledge for 30 frames. Cyro just used this with jab 1 during this online tournament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEK2JbZYbQg.

I haven't watched the stream, but I think TheReflexWonder also did it: http://www.twitch.tv/hsvasl, since another user mentioned jab at the ledge and Reflex responded.


I know he can use Dtilt, Down Smash, and angled Ftilt to catch people, but those are narrow hitboxes compared to his jab not to mention the lower end lag and lower knockback allowing him to followup with something else after jab. Commitment-wise, jab isn't much and there's also the chance for Falco to just go rapid jab and cancel it at the ledge.

Little Mac, Captain Falcon, Fox, and Meta Knight can all jab at the ledge, but it's not like jab canceling and their hitboxes are narrow except for Meta Knight. I'm curious if other characters can do this. Marth, Lucina, and Diddy maybe? Perhaps Sheik and Charizard, but I don't remember if their jab 1 cover the ground. Link, Toon Link, and Triple D might work or not...

I bet King Dedede's jab could cover the ledge especially well because of his good jab cancel. The only issue here is that jabbing is far from the most devastating thing Dedede can do to cover the ledge. It is the quickest as it requires no real setup though. But Gordos along with his naturally big moves can cover the whole ledge if used well. Heck, you can even stick a Gordo to the ledge and catch most recoveries with guaranteed followups. Dedede has so many cool frame traps and coverage moves at his disposal; the obvious problem is getting into an advantaged state to begin with. Little fixes could make this character a relevant threat.