Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[-RedX-]

Barely high tier is kind of what people expect of Ike now, anyways. Quick Draw could use some more damage, but it isn't enough to make Ike feel underwhelming. Aether having super armor properties starting at frame 1 would be awesome, but Aether isn't a bad recovery move as is, especially with the whole spiking property. Counter moves in-general are read and counter isn't a move that should ever be relied up on for anyways.

I'm so confused on what you mean on the smash attacks being dysfunctional. D-smash may be incredibly mediocre and should be a lot safer, but it still functions. F-smash is designed to be incredibly read based, and with how good Ike is at racking up damage, and being able to have quite a few safe ways to attack, having a smash attack that can get you a kill as early as 65% with a hard read really doesn't hurt Ike.

Which leads to u-smash. I think it's safe to say that if u-smash were to get buffed, hell would break loose.

The gap between Dsmash is too big to punish rolling, Usmash ends up being the smash of choice due to range and coverage. However, Usmash has these unnecessary sour spots that makes you feel unrewarded for landing it as a punish on spotdodges/rolls/ledge getup. Fsmash hits like a little ***** considering the startup/endlag and the tip is a sourspot. Marth's tipped Fsmash has about the same(or maybe more) kill power as a sweetspotted Ike Fsmash.
/rant

 

[Megamang]

Marth's new landing lags are just... perfect, imo. He feels like Marth instead of 'wtf, why can you punish that' the character. His SHAD game is amazing too, and as EL said the jab into d-tilt is a pretty easy and effective trap. You can set up the jab easily out of SH, because SH-AD-1st hit nair is a thing that is really strong against slower, zoning moves since you can be moving in while it whiffs. Definitely my favorite character to play in friendlies.

 

[Rikkhan]

I don't want to sound offensive but I don't get why people like marth so much, I always found tipper to be very gimmicky, besides tipper he looks very mediocre and not particulary fun to play, you can't combo, rush down or style someone you just sit there spacing 24/7 and fishing for the Fmash. I don't know what is so exciting about him.

 

[Megamang]

I feel like he is very aggressive. I like the precision based gameplay, and I like outranging people. I mean, you aren't going in like falcon, but you don't have a projectile nor zair so you are at a certain range... being oppressive, if not aggressive. Plus he can style with all his jab mixups, spikes, tippers from roll/spotdodge reads.


I think my favorite thing is his insane walk speed. I basically never run with him, so his speed walk is a really really fun tool because it allows you to move around and have your whole kit available. Walk away smashes are stylish AF as well. Walking into d-tilt on shield feels powerful and beats a shield happy character cleanly (unless they have insane OOS options or you get powershielded.) He is very aggressively spacing, more so than ZSS in my opinion. (She is more punish/juggle/outspeed oriented)

Oh, and also... falling u-air is combo'y and beautiful.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I feel like he is very aggressive. I like the precision based gameplay, and I like outranging people. I mean, you aren't going in like falcon, but you don't have a projectile nor zair so you are at a certain range... being oppressive, if not aggressive. Plus he can style with all his jab mixups, spikes, tippers from roll/spotdodge reads.


I think my favorite thing is his insane walk speed. I basically never run with him, so his speed walk is a really really fun tool because it allows you to move around and have your whole kit available. Walk away smashes are stylish AF as well. Walking into d-tilt on shield feels powerful and beats a shield happy character cleanly (unless they have insane OOS options or you get powershielded.) He is very aggressively spacing, more so than ZSS in my opinion. (She is more punish/juggle/outspeed oriented)

Oh, and also... falling u-air is combo'y and beautiful.

PROPHETIC POETIC AMAZINGNESS

 

[Ffamran]

I recently watched this James Chen video where he goes over the idea of "opening up your opponent" in various fighting games. He briefly mentions Smash and how it approaches this concept, but another thing caught my attention.

James's basic principle of opening up your opponent is that blocking is overpowered and SHOULD be overpowered in fighting games, and that your goal should be to force your opponent to be afraid to block. You are essentially trying to tear down their defenses through psychological intimidation, and that's what allows mixups, traps, and other tactics to work, and he mentions this as a universal regardless of whether the game you're playing emphasizes crossups, high-lows, guard/shield break mechanics, or whatever. You don't win the neutral by doing a mixup, you win the neutral in order to do a mixup.

The reason I mention all of this is because it seems so different from the Smash Bros. mindset, where it's often argued that a fighting game should emphasize offense over defense, and "overly defensive" play is looked down upon. Sure, the idea of "I just want to FIGHT, not chase after some coward" is prevalent in all fighting games, but the mentality seems to bleed through in Smash even to the highest levels.

Watch as this Fox instills fear just by jumping around: https://youtu.be/svzYCnU1qqI#t=12m20s. The red Fox SD'd early on - about 30 seconds in - and caught up, but even still, the green Fox had another stock and could take risks, but he choose to stay in shield fearing he'd get Up Smashed. I think the second match in this video had a Fox punish a scared Fox by just racking up damage through grabs and killing with a Utilt. That fear of dying because you didn't shield allows Fox and other weak on shield characters - practically the entire cast - with good grab game to just rack up damage over and over. In the case of say, Ness, he'll punish your fear of getting hit and shielding.

Sheik players love jumping around when you're on Smashville's platform and there's a reason dealing with a jumpy Falco isn't fun.

 

[Zionaze]

Marth is just so "elegant". Every move is subtle but flashy.

 

[TurboLink]

I don't want to sound offensive but I don't get why people like marth so much, I always found tipper to be very gimmicky, besides tipper he looks very mediocre and not particulary fun to play, you can't combo, rush down or style someone you just sit there spacing 24/7 and fishing for the Fmash. I don't know what is so exciting about him.

Because seeing those freeze frames activate while hitting someone with a tippered forward smash and sending them flying all the way into the blast zone is very satisfying. Also, spacing in general is fun.

I don't understand what you mean by "sit there spacing 24/7 and fishing for the forward smash." It's not like Forward Smash is his only kill move.

 

[san.]

Barely high tier is kind of what people expect of Ike now, anyways. Quick Draw could use some more damage, but it isn't enough to make Ike feel underwhelming. Aether having super armor properties starting at frame 1 would be awesome, but Aether isn't a bad recovery move as is, especially with the whole spiking property. Counter moves in-general are read and counter isn't a move that should ever be relied up on for anyways.

I'm so confused on what you mean on the smash attacks being dysfunctional. D-smash may be incredibly mediocre and should be a lot safer, but it still functions. F-smash is designed to be incredibly read based, and with how good Ike is at racking up damage, and being able to have quite a few safe ways to attack, having a smash attack that can get you a kill as early as 65% with a hard read really doesn't hurt Ike.

Which leads to u-smash. I think it's safe to say that if u-smash were to get buffed, hell would break loose.

Usmash and Fsmash have 3 more FAF than they had in Brawl.

Fsmash:
-84 FAF is terrible, +3-4 more than Brawl's
-17 and 19% sourspots barely kill with partial charge at 100%
-Its range is not too great, and it doesn't help that max range is also a sourspot IIRC.
-Damage is mediocre compared to its speed.
+It's good for shield break punishes I guess?

Usmash:
-71 FAF is terrible, +3-4 more than Brawl's
-25 frame startup makes it the slowest usmash, making it a poor option even when jump cancelled
-Its old sweetspot of 19% turned into a 10% sourspot, making it very annoying to hit people who air dodge->nair
-17 damage is terrible for its startup
+It's incredibly strong with rage

Dsmash:
-71 FAF is terrible, compare to the vast amount of 40-50 FAF dsmashes
-Its reach is quite low compared to practically any other Dsmash. It barely outranges Lucario's that hits on both sides at the same time, and is ~75% of Link's or Marth's.
-Its hitbox sweeps low to the ground and is paper thin, so it isn't too great at catching landings.
-13 frame startup is terrible for its reach
-It's barely as powerful as ftilt or bair, while being slower, laggier, and less range
-Its knockback angle is pretty high up
-Doesn't hit behind you properly since they nerfed the lingering hitboxes from Brawl (and it was already bottom 3 smashes in Brawl)


Then there's the global change where shields no longer cause edge slips as easily, pretty much negating these moves to obscurity/usage of once or twice a set. Compare the smashes to DK's and then it just becomes sad. Fortunately, Ike has very manageable tilts, jab, throws, and aerials. Specials are good enough to use, but aren't great due to high startup or low damage.

Outside of dsmash, buffing his smashes is out of the question since casuals believe these attacks are good.

As far as Smash 4 recoveries go it seems pretty ***. It has some applications with ledgeplay but non-sweetspot recoveries are instant mid-tier at best.

Quickdraw is the main reason he isn't free offstage.

Aether's only saving grace is that it has a bunch of invisible hitboxes in front of it, but it's easier to spike than it was in Brawl due to the invisible hitboxes being in slightly different locations than in 4. Unlike Brawl, you can't just SDI and tech the stage anymore either. Fortunately, aether can be placed where it's difficult to get the spike if the Ike player is wary.

 

[Megamang]

Eruption is critically being slept on I believe, once people's timing gets better it can be a guaranteed kill in some situations. Ryo missed a few easy ones vs. m2k's DK, but it still got him a few kills.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Eruption is critically being slept on I believe, once people's timing gets better it can be a guaranteed kill in some situations. Ryo missed a few easy ones vs. m2k's DK, but it still got him a few kills.

Eruption is Ike's one cheesy aspect. Ideally in the future, once you've been knocked far enough off stage that we have time to partly charge Eruption and you don't have a projectile you can aim upwards you're dead 90% of the time.

Its not being slept on as much as Ryo just... doesn't use it much for w/e reason and wants to do ledgetrumps. *shrugs*

 

[Megamang]

I mean when people say his specials are underwhelming, when eruption has so much potential, is the... sleeping being done. Many characters would kill for such an strong option at the ledge.

 

[Zionaze]

How safe is holding chomp on the ledge?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

How safe is holding chomp on the ledge?

Objectively safe. If you don't have a disjointed ledge hop option it can be a real pest when spaced right.

 

[Megamang]

And its pretty scary since wario with Waft can punish ledge rolls and ledge jumps extremely well. I hate being on the ledge vs Wario, especially if he has a bike down.

 

[Nobie]

I don't want to sound offensive but I don't get why people like marth so much, I always found tipper to be very gimmicky, besides tipper he looks very mediocre and not particulary fun to play, you can't combo, rush down or style someone you just sit there spacing 24/7 and fishing for the Fmash. I don't know what is so exciting about him.

For you, fighting games are fun because you can combo or style on someone, but for others the purest essence of fighting games and what makes them worthwhile is the act of spacing and out-positioning your opponent, and that's what Marth rewards through his sword and his tipper mechanic. Think of it like this: if you were a boxer, you'd take pleasure in delivering a flurry of devastating blows that knock your opponent out. Others though, would be all about forcing the opponent into the ropes or the corner.

 

[outfoxd]

For you, fighting games are fun because you can combo or style on someone, but for others the purest essence of fighting games and what makes them worthwhile is the act of spacing and out-positioning your opponent, and that's what Marth rewards through his sword and his tipper mechanic. Think of it like this: if you were a boxer, you'd take pleasure in delivering a flurry of devastating blows that knock your opponent out. Others though, would be all about forcing the opponent into the ropes or the corner.

Or making millions of dollars a second throwing one punch and clinching to a decision.

#money

 

[DunnoBro]

Is short hop air dodge ever that good on anyone? Just noticed duck hunt's lets him retain all his neutral tools (Fair, projectiles, and bair if needed to catch rolls)

He can juke a good bit due to the range of fair, about a roll distance away he can shad away, then drift back for a safe on shield fair. And the fact he's content if the opponent moved away since he can just throw out a projectile seems pretty good... But I hear people talk about shads and everytime i see people try to incorporate them they get stuffed by jabs, projectiles, dash attacks or yolo smashes.

This may be a ballsy way to set-up the point blank frisbee combo, similar to jigglypuff and rest though less risky/slower.

But I've yet to see SHADs really incorporated well and i think the natural button hitting atmosphere of the game is why. I'd rather not bother looking into it if it's just not a consistently viable strategy.

 

[outfoxd]

Is short hop air dodge ever that good on anyone? Just noticed duck hunt's lets him retain all his neutral tools (Fair, projectiles, and bair if needed to catch rolls)

He can juke a good bit due to the range of fair, about a roll distance away he can shad away, then drift back for a safe on shield fair. And the fact he's content if the opponent moved away since he can just throw out a projectile seems pretty good... But I hear people talk about shads and everytime i see people try to incorporate them they get stuffed by jabs, projectiles, dash attacks or yolo smashes.

This may be a ballsy way to set-up the point blank frisbee combo, similar to jigglypuff and rest though less risky/slower.

But I've yet to see SHADs really incorporated well and i think the natural button hitting atmosphere of the game is why. I'd rather not bother looking into it if it's just not a consistently viable strategy.

We're pretty good at getting people to stop buttons and chill out. Especially if they keep walking into bullets and cans.

 

[DunnoBro]

We're pretty good at getting people to stop buttons and chill out. Especially if they keep walking into bullets and cans.

No we're not lol

Duck hunt's direct weakness is button hitting

-Hitboxes negate our projectiles
-Duck hunt doesn't punish laggy moves hard
-A large part of his disadvantage state is using frisbee to cross-up dashing opponents looking to dash grab, but dash attacks/upsmashes straight stuff it and him.

 

[Megamang]

FHAD usually beats Short hop attacks (You're a little higher in the air, and can land on them right as they are in that vulnerable period right on landing).

 

[Asdioh]

I don't want to sound offensive but I don't get why people like marth so much, I always found tipper to be very gimmicky, besides tipper he looks very mediocre and not particulary fun to play, you can't combo, rush down or style someone you just sit there spacing 24/7 and fishing for the Fmash. I don't know what is so exciting about him.

Since his latest round of buffs, I think Marth is a lot more satisfying to play/watch than he was before. I feel like after these buffs, every version of Marth (Melee, Brawl, Smash 4) has had their own unique playstyle, with this one probably being the most "fair and balanced" one. Melee Marth had insanely OP range on his sword and grabs, with a ton of combos and chaingrab, which was balanced by the other top tiers also having insanely OP things, but it invalidated pretty much everyone outside of the top tiers. Brawl Marth lost some range thank groodness, but he still had chaingrabs and good tipper kills and stuff. Smash 4 Marth doesn't have any gimmicks like the other ones, just solid speed, disjoint, and power, and relies on fundamentals. His new Jab combos transform him majorly imo, and make his combo game and playstyle far more interesting than it was prepatch. He's just a super solid character now, and if people consider him weak, that's only because the top tier characters are overtuned in comparison. (Marth may be another character I consider near the ideal balance and playstyle in this game?)

Is short hop air dodge ever that good on anyone? Just noticed duck hunt's lets him retain all his neutral tools (Fair, projectiles, and bair if needed to catch rolls)

Speaking of, Marth's SHAD is good.

 

[outfoxd]

No we're not lol

Duck hunt's direct weakness is button hitting

-Hitboxes negate our projectiles
-Duck hunt doesn't punish laggy moves hard
-A large part of his disadvantage state is using frisbee to cross-up dashing opponents looking to dash grab, but dash attacks/upsmashes straight stuff it and him.

Retracted. I probably catch freezes from inexperience. The gunmen do tend to frighten occasionally.

 

[Zionaze]

how good is falco and falcons SHAD? unlike the others, they can perform grounded options and their jabs and tilts are pretty good.

I'm finding warios SHAD to be pretty useful too. He can only use his specials but chomp + aerial mobility makes it surprisingly devastating.

 

[Vipermoon]

@NickRiddle I have always felt that much Fsmash was necessary in the Yoshi MU.

Marth is just so "elegant". Every move is subtle but flashy.

I know, it's freakin amazing. The skill. I know he's just a character. But try to do the stuff he does. You can't even do it at 1/2 speed let alone the right way. I bet no one here even knows he spins around during Fsmash. It's that fast.

Since his latest round of buffs, I think Marth is a lot more satisfying to play/watch than he was before. I feel like after these buffs, every version of Marth (Melee, Brawl, Smash 4) has had their own unique playstyle, with this one probably being the most "fair and balanced" one. Melee Marth had insanely OP range on his sword and grabs, with a ton of combos and chaingrab, which was balanced by the other top tiers also having insanely OP things, but it invalidated pretty much everyone outside of the top tiers. Brawl Marth lost some range thank groodness, but he still had chaingrabs and good tipper kills and stuff. Smash 4 Marth doesn't have any gimmicks like the other ones, just solid speed, disjoint, and power, and relies on fundamentals. His new Jab combos transform him majorly imo, and make his combo game and playstyle far more interesting than it was prepatch. He's just a super solid character now, and if people consider him weak, that's only because the top tier characters are overtuned in comparison. (Marth may be another character I consider near the ideal balance and playstyle in this game?)


Speaking of, Marth's SHAD is good.

Pretty much. Some moves need help. Some (all) autocancel windows are unfair. But a lot of characters deal with things like this plus others like landing lag. At least Marth's landing lag is perfectly fair.

However, what is completely 100% unacceptable is all the freakin blind spots, deadzones, hitbox size and duration this and that, Z-axis this and that, "thatwasatipper"/"thatwentrightthroughhim" this and that, vs.shortcharacter this and that, and-whatever-else issues. The character was so overlooked in this department. I actually think it was part of the nerfs and some of the pre-existing ones went unfixed also because of the nerf mindset.

Rising air dodges are so underrated. It's so much more than an approach or projectile avoidance. I learn this the more interesting ways I use it.

 

[Djent]

Nairo is confirmed for Umebura FAT.
I'll also take this time to remind y'all that it's a Mon-Tues, not Sat-Sun tournament (it lines up with a Japanese holiday).

Anyway, in order to sort of connect this post to the thread topic, I'll say that anyone interested in /// MUs should definitely keep close tabs on it, timezones and schedule permitting.

 

[Ffamran]

Usmash and Fsmash have 3 more FAF than they had in Brawl.
Fsmash:
-84 FAF is terrible, +3-4 more than Brawl's
-17 and 19% sourspots barely kill with partial charge at 100%
-Its range is not too great, and it doesn't help that max range is also a sourspot IIRC.
-Damage is mediocre compared to its speed.
+It's good for shield break punishes I guess?

We could make it transcendent or whatever the term is for how his dash attack and apparently, Little Mac's Ftilt. Why do I say this? It's a two-handed sword that's about to crush someone's poor skull, but it can clank. Meanwhile, a skinny pheasant can swing his arms over and it's transcendent. They almost have the same animation too... Oh, and incidentally, they have similar base knockback and knockback growth, but Falco's Side Smash does 15% with a 10% late hit that's basically a tipper while Ike's does 19% with a 17% late hit. Here are the differences: Falco's is frame 17, he can act at frame 49, and it's transcendent while Ike's is frame 31, he can act at frame 84, and it's just a regular disjoint.

Yes, Ike doesn't involve his hurtbox, but Falco moves forward with a transcendent hitbox. You're only going to hit him if you make contact with his head, torso, and legs while he puts out a smaller, transcendent Ike Side Smash at almost twice the speed, it'd be even closer to twice the speed if the developers didn't add another frame for no reason. Oh, it's frame 16, that's too fast! Let's make it 17... Make it 18 then! At least it would be a punch in the face than a slap in the face! Nerf properly! Anyway, I digress. Here's a question: which would you rather have? A frame 31 Side Smash that could kill at 100% or one that kills at 120%, but is almost twice as fast and transcendent?

Usmash:
-71 FAF is terrible, +3-4 more than Brawl's
-25 frame startup makes it the slowest usmash, making it a poor option even when jump cancelled
-Its old sweetspot of 19% turned into a 10% sourspot, making it very annoying to hit people who air dodge->nair
-17 damage is terrible for its startup
+It's incredibly strong with rage

I wonder what would happen if the sour-spot spiked airborne opponents. I mean, logically, a slab of metal dropping on you would slam you down and not send you up.

That being said, it's probably Ike's best Smash due to its utility as a roll punish, landing punishing, and in general, a Smash attack.

Dsmash:
-71 FAF is terrible, compare to the vast amount of 40-50 FAF dsmashes
-Its reach is quite low compared to practically any other Dsmash. It barely outranges Lucario's that hits on both sides at the same time, and is ~75% of Link's or Marth's.
-Its hitbox sweeps low to the ground and is paper thin, so it isn't too great at catching landings.
-13 frame startup is terrible for its reach
-It's barely as powerful as ftilt or bair, while being slower, laggier, and less range
-Its knockback angle is pretty high up
-Doesn't hit behind you properly since they nerfed the lingering hitboxes from Brawl (and it was already bottom 3 smashes in Brawl)

I like this move, but it's underwhelming. Lowering the end lag to 61 would be enough to make it that much better since it's Ike's fastest Smash and one of his faster ground options after Utilt, tied with Ftilt, and 2 frames faster than dash attack. Lowering the end lag to be 52-ish like his dash attack would make this move much, much safer to use.

First hit has 3 active frames, 13-15, which is okay and the second hit is dumb. It's just dumb. The second hit is frame 32-33 with a late hit at frames 34-36. That's a total of 5 active frames, but the clean hit only has 2 active frames. This isn't a Falco Bair we're talking about where a fast move shouldn't have that much power, range, or active frames. We're talking about a slow second hit with a hitbox of a Falco Bair... Okay... I think they'll need to either swap it so the clean hit is frames 32-34 and the weak hit is 35-36 or just scrap it all together and make it frames 32-36 for say, 16%. Late hit doing 8% is also kind of dumb...

 

[Nu~]

Nairo is confirmed for Umebura FAT.
I'll also take this time to remind y'all that it's a Mon-Tues, not Sat-Sun tournament (it lines up with a Japanese holiday).

Anyway, in order to sort of connect this post to the thread topic, I'll say that anyone interested in /// MUs should definitely keep close tabs on it, timezones and schedule permitting.

Abadango isn't going?

 

[Djent]

Oh right too (but it's not like I have to tell Pac-Mains to scour the internet for new Pac content).

 

[Asdioh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOdhFajSdj8 so, DLC stage confirmed for September 30th, which means there'll be a patch of some sort, and I'm willing to bet balance changes will be in that patch. Only a few days before the upcoming national. Which I'm not going to because I missed the cutoff date
I'm sure discussion about hypothetical balance changes shouldn't go here until it actually happens, but hype!

Also, when is Umebara? Next week?

Also hype for another definitely-legal DLC stage

 

[FullMoon]

I don't think Mario Maker is going to be legal because the entire layout of the level is random.

 

[san.]

We could make it transcendent or whatever the term is for how his dash attack and apparently, Little Mac's Ftilt. Why do I say this? It's a two-handed sword that's about to crush someone's poor skull, but it can clank. Meanwhile, a skinny pheasant can swing his arms over and it's transcendent. They almost have the same animation too... Oh, and incidentally, they have similar base knockback and knockback growth, but Falco's Side Smash does 15% with a 10% late hit that's basically a tipper while Ike's does 19% with a 17% late hit. Here are the differences: Falco's is frame 17, he can act at frame 49, and it's transcendent while Ike's is frame 31, he can act at frame 84, and it's just a regular disjoint.

Yes, Ike doesn't involve his hurtbox, but Falco moves forward with a transcendent hitbox. You're only going to hit him if you make contact with his head, torso, and legs while he puts out a smaller, transcendent Ike Side Smash at almost twice the speed, it'd be even closer to twice the speed if the developers didn't add another frame for no reason. Oh, it's frame 16, that's too fast! Let's make it 17... Make it 18 then! At least it would be a punch in the face than a slap in the face! Nerf properly! Anyway, I digress. Here's a question: which would you rather have? A frame 31 Side Smash that could kill at 100% or one that kills at 120%, but is almost twice as fast and transcendent?

The faster one, of course. Ike's frame 7 move kills at 100%.

I wonder what would happen if the sour-spot spiked airborne opponents. I mean, logically, a slab of metal dropping on you would slam you down and not send you up.

That being said, it's probably Ike's best Smash due to its utility as a roll punish, landing punishing, and in general, a Smash attack.

I guess, but not nearly as good as Brawl. Not worth the effort unless it will kill. Rolls are too fast to really punish that well, it's better to punish people in the air. The fast rolls have a 27-28 FAF IIRC, making usmash very difficult to use vs them.

I like this move, but it's underwhelming. Lowering the end lag to 61 would be enough to make it that much better since it's Ike's fastest Smash and one of his faster ground options after Utilt, tied with Ftilt, and 2 frames faster than dash attack. Lowering the end lag to be 52-ish like his dash attack would make this move much, much safer to use.

First hit has 3 active frames, 13-15, which is okay and the second hit is dumb. It's just dumb. The second hit is frame 32-33 with a late hit at frames 34-36. That's a total of 5 active frames, but the clean hit only has 2 active frames. This isn't a Falco Bair we're talking about where a fast move shouldn't have that much power, range, or active frames. We're talking about a slow second hit with a hitbox of a Falco Bair... Okay... I think they'll need to either swap it so the clean hit is frames 32-34 and the weak hit is 35-36 or just scrap it all together and make it frames 32-36 for say, 16%. Late hit doing 8% is also kind of dumb...

Even if it was 61, it would still be crap. It needs a ton of changes. It's actually his 4th slowest attack on the ground (not counting specials LOL), after dash attack, usmash, and fsmash. It needs to be 10 frames at the very least, with like 55 FAF.

 

[KakuCP9]

Balance patches for this game bring out weird feelings in me. One hand, I'm always curious as to who got changed and by how much (also hope for Sheik nerfs like everyone else), but on the other hand, the huge cluster #$#$ that occurs in the patch's wake when people try to find stuff is kinda off putting.
Also if Ike gets more buffs, I'm going fly to Japan and raid their scene (I mean I like Ike, but for for #$#$ sake, he'll turn into one giant muscle at this rate).

 

[Vipermoon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOdhFajSdj8 so, DLC stage confirmed for September 30th, which means there'll be a patch of some sort, and I'm willing to bet balance changes will be in that patch. Only a few days before the upcoming national. Which I'm not going to because I missed the cutoff date
I'm sure discussion about hypothetical balance changes shouldn't go here until it actually happens, but hype!

Also, when is Umebara? Next week?

Also hype for another definitely-legal DLC stage

Oh crap. Marth buffs right before TBH. How will I adapt in time!?

@ FullMoon It won't be legal? That isn't obvious at all.

 

[Ghostbone]

A stage with random layouts that often has permanent walk-offs will certainly not be legal.

 

[Shaya]

At this stage I personally feel I have aggressive air dodge game play implemented.

For ZSS, it is her second best defensive choice after shield. It saves her from grabs (negates dash grab oos as a punish), she can maneuver around it, and afterwards she's still in the air (her most option rich state).
Yes, better than spot dodging or rolling for her. Although both are good on her, they're still relegating her to a ground state which has static options out of it (you want to be a position to space either horizontally or vertically always, the likelihood of someone being in your face after these are high).
While Rolls/Dodges are the 2-3 frame start up windows and SHAD is at least 5 frames (start up that can also be mobile: dash jumping), it matches vulnerability of spot dodge while still giving you control of movement.

For ZSS one of her biggest faults is she needs to jump, not only that she needs to jump, she needs to reach the apex of her jump as well. SHAD, considering those conditions, is almost the option you should be expecting from ZSS, at least, it's the option opponent's are going to need to respect in the future. If you run in and shield, dash attack, up smash or whatever on the read/anticipation of a jump, chances are you've just given me a free landing up air (-6 on shield) for follow ups or back air in your face.

The way I play Roy at the moment is rocket fairs/nairs to try to take stage control and condition, Roy can't SHAD but he can full hop air dodge aerial and it really isn't that functionally different to Marth doing the same considering the jump heights. As people take that movement as a reason to shield, suddenly being in their face (possibly free cross up) or more time to anticipate positions for a well spaced landing fair is very very helpful to him.

It may be a bit due to my training methods, I focus a lot of time on CPU practice. If you can put anything to the CPUs in this game, it's their ability to reactively punish things you think would be safe otherwise. Crossing over or feint-dodges are, without heavy practice (I'm not exaggerating) is going to get you ****ed by a CPU 99% of the time, because of this I've learned to "space" SHAD movements better as well, and it's translated well to the real world going by my recent tournament escapades [FF aerial on shield into sh ad over spot dodge/roll/shield into free up air on things, it's been a while since I've felt that dynamic be viable like it was for me in Brawl, but now it definitely feels viable: brawl example being shield trap fair/nair on shield with Marth into dolphin slash/fsmash beating what they do if they don't respect it]

 

[C0rvus]

The character is clearly very unique to begin with, but is also clearly designed around frame trapping which is much harder to understand than "oh this true combos..." or "this safe on shield move kills at 60!"

But he still needs buffs/tweaks lol Objectively the WORST smashes in the game by a large margin.

IMO The reason he isn't played more isn't because he isn't fun to play so much as he lacks the ability to be scrubby and use hail mary smashes like every other character.

I can agree with this. I cannot even try to play Duck Hunt unless I'm in the right frame of mind. You simply cannot afford to stop thinking, spacing, setting up frame traps, preying on enemy habits, etc or you just get man handled by most characters. It is simultaneously one of the most enticing and most daunting and discouraging aspects of the character. He has to work very hard but when you trap your opponent with clever use of the dog's kit, nothing feels better.

Duck Hunt is hard and kind of unrewarding and unforgiving, but you are one of the guys pushing the character forward. Every time I read one of your posts, I feel briefly inspired to master the Dog. Like, this talk of 50/50s and kill confirms excites me. Even if I don't have it in me to main him, just know that your posts are pushing me towards the character. His tools are just so cool.

 

[Dabuz]

It will be legal...in mario maker only tourneys!

 

[Smog Frog]

god ****ing dammit why are we always hoping for nerfs every ****ing patch? why is that the TOP ****ING priority? shes the most tame top tier in any ****ing fighting game ive ever observed and really nerfing her(or anyone for that matter!) are bottom ****ing priorities. i'd be more concerned about fixing blatantly broken ****( mostly, and missing hitboxes in general) than any sort of true balance patch(eg: adjusting the balance of a completed character, such as )

sorry if this comes off as very angry but i really am, this is a pet peeve second only to people saying is top 5 which thankfully seems to have ceased

 

[Trifroze]

I was gonna write something about SHADs but then Shaya posted so

I doubt Marth's landing lag numbers will be reduced any further in the future since all of his aerials except dair are now safe to land on (perfect) shields vs pretty much every character in the game. Only exceptions are characters with really good and fast dash attacks, fast aerials with a lot of range forward and long reaching quick tilts. If anything his grab game should be expected to get buffed. Even if we forget about chaingrabs and grab releases, he got more follow ups out of his throws in Brawl than he does here, in a game where everyone gets follow ups, kills or at least good damage from throws. Except Yoshi.