Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Sinister Slush]

If half the cast get kill throws or throws that does absurd damage (12% from Bowser Jr. bthrow) the other half should get buffs in their grabs/throws too.
I most certainly enjoy Yoshi's strongest throw being 7% :^)

 

[Ffamran]

The faster one, of course. Ike's frame 7 move kills at 100%.

Yeah, that's because between Ike and Falco's Side Smashes, Falco's wins over in speed and power ratio with the added bonus of being transcendent. Ike's Side Smash's speed and power ratio isn't good. Triple D's Side Smash is a better, slow arcing move and Bowser's is frame 22.

I guess, but not nearly as good as Brawl. Not worth the effort unless it will kill. Rolls are too fast to really punish that well, it's better to punish people in the air. The fast rolls have a 26 FAF IIRC, making usmash almost impossible to use vs them.

I'm kind of looking at it from a logic point of view which considering this is a game... It'd be like wondering what would happen if Ganondorf had a landing hitbox for his Fair since in Ocarina of Time he could cause a shockwave by slamming his fist onto the ground. Heh... Dark Bomb... I miss Jak 2...

Even if it was 61, it would still be crap. It needs a ton of changes. It's actually his 4th slowest attack on the ground (not counting specials LOL), after dash attack, usmash, and fsmash. It needs to be 10 frames at the very least, with like 55 FAF.

Or they could make it much stronger. Brawl Wolf's Down Smash was frame 8-9 or 14-15, dude could act at frame 35, it did 14% or 12% for the first hit and 13% or 10% for the second hit. Both with 40 or 50 base and 90 or 60 growth. Contrast this with Ike's current Down Smash frame 13, act at frame 71 that does 14% with the first hit and 17% with the second hit both with 40 base and 100 growth and the 8% late hit with 30 base and 100 growth. Jaysus... Wolf's Down Smash is even faster than Little Mac's. Little Mac's is frame 10-11 or 17-18, does 12% with 25 base and 100 growth and he acts at frame 43. It's basically power and speed vs. consistency and defense since Little Mac has armor on frames 7-10 and 15-17.

Speaking from a fast Down Smash user, I'd rather take a front-hitting only Down Smash like Ryu's if it means much more range and more power. The difference between Fox and Falco's Down Smash isn't that much... Fox's is frame 6-7, total frames of 52 - act at 53 -, legs intangible 6-7, does 15% with an angle of 25 or 12% with an angle of 361 degrees, Sakurai angle, 30 base, and 75 growth. Falco's is frame 7-9, total frames 46 - act at 47 -, legs intangible 3-7, does 15% with an angle of 25 degrees or 12% with an angle of 80 degrees, 20 base, and 76 growth. Falco's Down Smash lets him act 6 frames faster, but the base knockback and lowish growth means it's punishable at low percents and that weird hitbox on his body doesn't really let him setup into anything and is also punishable because of the low knockback on what is seemingly a faster ending move. In terms of punishing stuff, it's okay for roll reads, but you better be on point and it's probably safer to just turn around and Ftilt or Dtilt which is a ridiculous move and much, much safer and more rewarding than his Down Smash. I'd rather have this even if it meant Falco could only hit in front, but now has more range in front, does 15% with 20 base and 100 growth. Oh, and it would make Falco and even more annoying edgeguarder with a Down Smash like that.

Someone, I think it was a commentator, mention that Down Smashes in this game aren't as powerful as previous games. I don't know if any of that's true, but whatever. Oh, and apparently, Mario's Down Smash is frame 5-6 or 14, acts at frame 44, does 10%, 32 degrees first hit or 12%, 30 degrees second hit with 30 base and 100 growth. Luigi's Down Smash is frame 6-7 or 14-15, acts at frame 38, does 14% or 15% for either hit, 120 degrees first hit, 60 degrees second hit, 40 base for both hits, 80 growth for the first hit, and 100 growth for the second hit. Let me point out something in case you missed it: Luigi can act at frame 38. That's 6 frames faster than Mario and 4 frames faster than Ryu who can only hit in front of him. There's also the fact Mario's second hit only lasts for 1 frame while Luigi's lasts for 2. Okay... Y'know, I think more Luigi players should spam this move now... Luigi has a Wolf Down Smash... Use it!

 

[Shaya]

Oh and Marth is one of the most popular smash characters of all time, especially in competitive setting.
If you've been around since the Melee era, chances are the only reason you found out Smash got played in tournaments was because of Ken and Marth.
In the Melee to Brawl transition, Marth was considered #1 in Melee with a huge following that continued into Brawl. To most initial opinions, Marth was obviously a strong character in the game still.
As Brawl continued on, Marth was seen as a "fundamental" character without real weaknesses and an amazing option spread. Most high level players would have a competent Marth. Most places you would go to, people would have a tradition of playing Marth dittos or other Marth-related funsies. Lots of risk with lots of reward. He was a simple character with a very high skill cap. All those things considered made him fun to watch and play at essentially every level, one of the few characters in the game with a fun ditto as well (you can look up Falco, ICs, Snake, MK dittos yourself, enjoy).

By no surprise to me, people who come from an older smash background coming into Smash4 likely [think] they know a ****ton about him. And on average, most people would know more about him than another character in the cast. His animations and everything else has barely changed throughout all of his games.


More landing lag off Marth's aerials will make him more combo intensive. Although I'm already pretty happy with sour aerials strings, sour fair or bair or landing up air and you're likely stringing together 3+ hit. He is pretty close to "safe" with ff landing aerials, but he's still short on having a rising aerial game to write home about (due to no auto cancels worth anything).
Down Smash/Dash Attack still kinda dysfunctional. Dolphin Slash trades with every aerial in the game before sweetspotting so he is one of the most exploitable characters to edge guard (I know this is a big thing because of what I do to other Marths, and some of the better players around me sure love their captain falcon down airs).

After playing Roy a lot recently I've stopped thinking Roy's niche is him having a grab game while Marth does not. He has Brawl Marth end frames on fair and down tilt. His rewards from grabs are consistent to get but always require reaction/forethought. He has much higher base damage values which contrasts him interestingly too (I think he has a good mu with luigi while marth gets destroyed)

 

[Nu~]

)I think he has a good mu with luigi while marth gets destroyed)

This is interesting. Why?
Is it partially because Roy's raw shield pushback makes it hard for luigi to get in?

 

[Shaya]

The contrast of him being more literal frame safe at the tip (hit lag modifiers), while the inner is "safer" still (especially on shield pushback) means that Luigi getting in isn't even remotely as good for him as it is getting in on Marth (and it's harder).
Clashing with projectiles with ground moves is less of a death wish (yay hit lag modifiers), the faster mobility specs means a rocket fair will clash with fireballs, beat his attacks and is safe[r] on his shield more reliably all in one (Marth's higher/slower jumping, worse dash speed and aerial mobility generally not allowing him to be able to beat the range of fireball to add pressure).

Roy's "walling" with dtilt, jab and ftilt is a bit more dynamic than Marth's, while not always being better better to have more options (Marth's dtilt is more than effective enough 99% of the time), it definitely feels like it helps out against Luigi.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOdhFajSdj8 so, DLC stage confirmed for September 30th, which means there'll be a patch of some sort, and I'm willing to bet balance changes will be in that patch. Only a few days before the upcoming national. Which I'm not going to because I missed the cutoff date
I'm sure discussion about hypothetical balance changes shouldn't go here until it actually happens, but hype!

Also, when is Umebara? Next week?

Also hype for another definitely-legal DLC stage

Cool! I've given up on trying to predict what patches will be like though. We'll just have to wait.

god ****ing dammit why are we always hoping for nerfs every ****ing patch? why is that the TOP ****ING priority? shes the most tame top tier in any ****ing fighting game ive ever observed and really nerfing her(or anyone for that matter!) are bottom ****ing priorities. i'd be more concerned about fixing blatantly broken ****( mostly, and missing hitboxes in general) than any sort of true balance patch(eg: adjusting the balance of a completed character, such as )

sorry if this comes off as very angry but i really am, this is a pet peeve second only to people saying is top 5 which thankfully seems to have ceased

been saying this for pages. Sometimes you just gotta realize that the act of simply not caring will take you so far in situations like these.

Also many people here (and on the internet / smash 4 community in general) haven't played another smash game super competitively other than this one (myself included. I dabbled in Brawl and PM before this). So yeah, relitively speaking Shiek is fine as she is. But since patches exist, people will cry until she's nerfed. It happened to Diddy. It happened to Sonic. It sorta happened with Rosa at the begining. Bottom line: the cycle doesn't end until balance patches end. For all we know, Mario could be top tier by the end pf it all. Who knows.

 

[Vipermoon]

I agree with your thoughts on Luigi, Shaya, except I'm not sure about a winning MU in Roy vs Luigi. Luigi combos and edgeguards Roy hard.

Also Roy's Fair has the end frames of Melee Marth. Frame 29 (with this info can we say Roy's SH is 30 frames?), wait, was Melee Marth end frame 30 or 29? Well anyway, Robin has Brawl Marth's Fair though.

 

[Rikkhan]

man I feel like when everyone love a certain movie and you are just "meh", I like melee marth a lot, I never cared for brawl and smash 4 marth is just ok nothing to be excited about, spacing is something you always do and a lot characters need as much spacing as marth so I can't say is something unique I also don't ride that nostalgia feeling. To each his own I guess.

TL DR: melee marth = cool, smash4 marth = ok...

 

[Wintropy]

There is something to be said for disseminating the fundamental "essence" of a character and maintaining it with consistence. Shaya's discussion of Marth is a good example of that: it's very much in the vein of a traditional fighting game, where most characters retain the same basic moves and properties between games, which means veterans can become comfortable relatively quickly with the same character. I don't think Marth will ever be irrelevant in that sense, especially since he's hewn his own tidy niche in the current meta.

 

[Mr. Johan]

People want significant Sheik nerfs to happen primarily so there can be a new focal point in discussion. At this point it's become a well-tread, but tired topic.

The banality that comes with familiarity, and such.

 

[Shaya]

I agree with your thoughts on Luigi, Shaya, except I'm not sure about a winning MU in Roy vs Luigi. Luigi combos and edgeguards Roy hard.

Also Roy's Fair has the end frames of Melee Marth. Frame 29 (with this info can we say Roy's SH is 30 frames?), wait, was Melee Marth end frame 30 or 29? Well anyway, Robin has Brawl Marth's Fair though.

It's frame 33 end, not 29. with the frame 36 auto cancel (i.e. same as Marth)
Unless master core is wrong.

I never said he won the match up, lol. Just that he does good while Marth does horrible~

man I feel like when everyone love a certain movie and you are just "meh", I like melee marth a lot, I never cared for brawl and smash 4 marth is just ok nothing to be excited about, spacing is something you always do and a lot characters need as much spacing as marth so I can't say is something unique I also don't ride that nostalgia feeling. To each his own I guess.

TL DR: melee marth = cool, smash4 marth = ok...

You not knowing the love and compassion is telling me you never grab release guaranteed spiked meta knight in tournament before. Or in a friendly, which is good enough for most thrill seekers.

Either way, I can tell you don't get what Marth does in Melee either, no offense. Yes spacing is important for everyone. Timing is important for everyone. Marth only has spacing and timing though; other characters have more to pad out their actions or game plans. In previous games he was heavily about trapping and covering options; his moveset being 10 frames disadvantaged on shields forced 50/50s constantly, but if timing or spacing was off it would always be a free punish for a competent player.

 

[Vipermoon]

It's frame 33 end, not 29. with the frame 36 auto cancel (i.e. same as Marth)
Unless master core is wrong.

I never said he won the match up, lol. Just that he does good while Marth does horrible~

I took good MU as winning, sorry.

I checked mastercore and it says IASA 34 but there is something wrong here.

Exhibit A: http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Roy
Exhibit B: If this were true Bair would AC in a SH with Roy but it doesn't. However he can SH Fair and act out before he lands.
Exhibit C: It's pretty obvious that Roy is Fairing faster than Robin if you compare them.

So idk, look closer, it might be some more of that frame speed crap. All I see is framespeed x.66 which wouldn't help. I'm still not good at reading this.

 

[Trifroze]

spacetiming

It's very apparent that Sakurai knows what makes every character who they are in Smash and lets them keep those elements from game to game. Smash 4 is the most balanced game so far because it doesn't have the same level of those individual completely jank moves (Sheik's needles still is, and Diddy's uair used to be), but some characters clearly have objectively better versions of certain moves just because it's what they always had. Ness' back throw, Fox's up smash, Marth's forward smash, Falcon's jab, ZSS' down smash and so on. This is something that's important to keep in mind when looking at characters and thinking some of their moves are too strong compared to anyone else; it may be true but they also have ~10 other moves that are objectively worse compared to many others.

Even then, some of this stuff got completely bopped in the transition from Brawl to Smash 4 for example, like Falco's lasers and ZSS' side b (legit mad there's no reason to use this in Smash 4 although it's mostly because zair is better in nearly every situation). Stuff like this was very abusive in Brawl but nerfing them to the point they become useless is unnecessary and bad design. Really hoping for anything like this to get buffed as much as necessary that they have some use again.

 

[Shaya]

I took good MU as winning, sorry.

I checked mastercore and it says IASA 34 but there is something wrong here.

Exhibit A: http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Roy
Exhibit B: If this were true Bair would AC in a SH with Roy but it doesn't. However he can SH Fair and act out before he lands.
Exhibit C: It's pretty obvious that Roy is Fairing faster than Robin if you compare them.

So idk, look closer, it might be some more of that frame speed crap. All I see is framespeed x.66 which wouldn't help. I'm still not good at reading this.

Bleh, frame rate multipliers are Satan. Yeah 4 frames are shaved off in the start up (roughly) so 34 IASA would be 30 if that's the case.
I swear to god this is an inconsistent thing though.

Either way, better for me. Rocket fairs are even better than I gave credit for (especially because I loved mid air jump ading out of it away~ afterwards because it's practically all he can do)

 

[Rikkhan]

Marth only has spacing and timing though; other characters have more.

Well I guess that's my point, if a game offers me a lot of options but certain character just have the fundamentals I don't feel excited about, smash 4 marth doesnt have strong combo potential, or juggle or edgeguard or traps or techs, or tricky playstyle, even styling is ehh and on top of that he is not even good in this game (he is not bad he is average).

I don't want to derail this into a marth love/hate discussion anymore, I'm pretty sure most people here love marth even if is the smash4 iteration I just don't share that feeling.

Either way, I can tell you don't get what Marth does in Melee either, no offense.

Hold on literally the only thing I said about melee marth is "marth is cool", but wathever I guess you can read my mind.

 

[TurboLink]

Well I guess that's my point, if a game offers me a lot of options but certain character just have the fundamentals I don't feel excited about, smash 4 marth doesnt have strong combo potential, or juggle or edgeguard or traps or techs, or tricky playstyle, even styling is ehh and on top of that he is not even good in this game (he is not bad he is average).

I don't want to derail this into a marth love/hate discussion anymore, I'm pretty sure most people here love marth even if is the smash4 iteration I just don't share that feeling.


Hold on literally the only thing I said about melee marth is "marth is cool", but wathever I guess you can read my mind.

What are you talking about? Marth is good at edgeguarding.

 

[Rikkhan]

What are you talking about? Marth is good at edgeguarding.

he is good but not super good.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth is easily in high tier when it comes to edgeguarding.

 

[Deathcarter]

god ****ing dammit why are we always hoping for nerfs every ****ing patch? why is that the TOP ****ING priority? shes the most tame top tier in any ****ing fighting game ive ever observed and really nerfing her(or anyone for that matter!) are bottom ****ing priorities. i'd be more concerned about fixing blatantly broken ****( mostly, and missing hitboxes in general) than any sort of true balance patch(eg: adjusting the balance of a completed character, such as )

sorry if this comes off as very angry but i really am, this is a pet peeve second only to people saying is top 5 which thankfully seems to have ceased

I think its fair to want Sheik nerfs when other good characters *coughGreninjacough* have arguably gotten it worse in prior patches.

 

[Ffamran]

spacetiming

It's very apparent that Sakurai knows what makes every character who they are in Smash and lets them keep those elements from game to game.

I would argue that Falco is the only major exception to this. Not Samus, not Zelda, not even Roy from Melee to Smash 4. Their core gameplay sticks; Samus is a zoner centered around Charge Shot, Zelda has very precise Fair and Bair, her defensive play style, and her doubles potential, and Roy keeping his strong up close gameplay that was refined in Smash 4.

Melee Falco was an insane comboer with a really good projectile for zoning and approaching and he was also the really strong on the stage, but horrible off stage. Smash 4 Luigi, Little Mac, Fox, and Mario can count for parts of this - Little Mac takes the latter part. Brawl Falco was zone you in ways that are broken, was considered to have trouble killing, but had setups to kill you and had a get out of jail card with Falco Phantasm. Smash 4 Sheik who is less abusive, but still abusive with zoning. Smash 4 Falco? Brawl Wolf in the early days because of Bair... but with worse air speed, worse projectile, and unsurprisingly, a worse Smash 4 Fox. Now? Hell if I know. He's got a Wolf Bair in animation, but with more power, a ZSS Uair, a Zelda Nair, a Pikachu Fair, a generic frame 16 Dair spike, a "Melee Fox U-throw to Uair" setup, a Wolf Up Smash in function, and a really underwhelming projectile that kind of forces him to play up close most of the time. Y'know, if he was supposed to be Fundamentals the Character, then Marth, Lucina, Kirby, the Pits, and more would have been better options.

They're defining Falco as they go which if that's Falco's shtick as this free-form character who's different in every game - the Mugen to Fox's Jin -, people will always be ****** at him. I wouldn't be surprised if Falco somehow ends up as a brute of a character that makes Ganondorf look weak and Luigi look like a neurologist in Smash 5. The only thing I can think of that notably defines and has stuck with Falco is he jumps high. That's not exactly something you want to be a notable trait, especially when temporary buffs like Palutena's Lightweight makes Falco a high jumper, but not the highest jumper not to mention Greninja's jump is barely shorter than Falco's. The other thing is he hits hard and he fights well up close. At least 70% of the cast can hold a claim on that. Oh, and the easy to gimp club with Little Mac, Dr. Mario, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Link, and more who have more positive definitions.

 

[Shaya]

Falco seems to retain his strong [vertical] set up combo game throughout all games. His less than ideal mobility otherwise being bolstered by tools that generally force approaches.

He still has those. The way he's changed bolster this still (fair, uair, nair, dtilt being big parts of his game now). Reflector and Laser are really average in contrast to his past games for achieving the latter "feel", but crazy idea, he still mostly forces approach; Sheik can't run away and needle camp Falco at all, ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?
Problem is he doesn't have a mid-range game anymore. Dash attack is very average, both those aforementioned tools aren't safe or beat attacking really, side-b is a lot poorer for mixing up, punishing overly poor movements to avoid lasers and whatnot.

On the other side of things an area of him which used to be good but way too risky to attempt: off stage edge guarding is now doable. This is one of those funny areas I've loved about Falco in smash4 since day1; as a solid Falco secondary from Brawl and advocate of doubles Falco, risky but potent punishes were great for my enjoyment; however one 'hit' (like you whiffing) was your stock. Today he can edge guard above stage height (or with holding his mid air jump ANYWHERE) and get back to the stage; likely a lot faster than the enemy (side-b) could. It's a pretty cool thing no one else can really do.

Falco stands out as being one of the most combo heavy high damage dealers in the cast and has maintained that throughout his games thus far.
He's a character which was top 5 in the cast for all of CQC, Mid Range and Long range game play in both Melee and Brawl. The only thing ever holding him back was his disadvantaged state.
While he may still have close to top 5 CQC his jab is dysfunctional against most 3 frame aerial characters, he definitely is no where that in mid range, and has alright long range tools (better than most) but nothing game winning.
If you fix the jab and then weight up what would be better/healthier, buffs on the mid range or buffs on the long range, I think knowing that his long range counters/weakens other long range games leaves just his mid range to get fixes while still maintaining most of his feel and design strengths throughout all games.

 

[FSLink]

god ****ing dammit why are we always hoping for nerfs every ****ing patch? why is that the TOP ****ING priority? shes the most tame top tier in any ****ing fighting game ive ever observed and really nerfing her(or anyone for that matter!) are bottom ****ing priorities. i'd be more concerned about fixing blatantly broken ****( mostly, and missing hitboxes in general) than any sort of true balance patch(eg: adjusting the balance of a completed character, such as )

sorry if this comes off as very angry but i really am, this is a pet peeve second only to people saying is top 5 which thankfully seems to have ceased

You can want both.

Have the lower tiers get buffed and their hitboxes fixed, and fix a few of the top tier's oddities. I really don't think Sheik should have good neutral, good combo game, good way to get out of disadvantage state, AND good recovery. Personally I think nerfing needles slightly, and making her downB and upB easier to punish would go some ways to fixing her to be more in line with everyone else. People are just more vocal about wanting nerfs for her since she somehow came out unscathed the last few patches.

Retracted. I probably catch freezes from inexperience. The gunmen do tend to frighten occasionally.

When customs was a bigger thing, I caught a lot more people freezing while using Duck Hunt when they weren't used to the other Gunmen (Quick and Mega).

 

[Ffamran]

****, I forgot to talk about his edgeguard game. Thing is coming from a non-competitive side, when people talk about characters and mention how Falco has an identity crisis in Smash 4, I get confused since it doesn't seem to be true. Feels likes making a documentary called That is Falco. Melee, Brawl, Smash 4, all of it has Falco and he doesn't seem to be any different. Those claims of he's an inferior Fox, an inferior Wolf, he had an identity crisis, he was massively buffed in patch 1.0.8, and all of that... It just doesn't make sense. He's not Falco because he doesn't have his Shine, he's not Falco because he can't SHDL, he's not Falco because he can't pillar, and stuff like Melee Falco's Bair was satisfying to use. What? And a frame 4, drive a foot through someone's skull isn't?

Dtilt was always good... It's like that Dave Chappelle skit of "Good-*** Cheese". Why didn't anyone talk about it? If it's such a good move, why isn't it being used? I can understand why in Melee, but even in Brawl... If it's Falco and it's his Dtilt, then why shouldn't it be expected to be similar, to be good, to be something that defines him. Oh, nope, can't SHDL, so everything about him sucks. That's the impression I got when people first started talking about him and I still feel that impression from time to time. It wasn't limited to here, but everywhere from YouTube, Reddit, Gamefaqs, etc.

Falco holds the distinction of being a combo-centric character without true combos or true setups past mid-percents. Sheik can 50/50 off of D-throw, Captain Falcon can confirm his Fair in multiple ways, and Luigi can true many things off of D-throw. Falco can launch you with Dtilt and Uair you to death, but it's not truly guaranteed. It is guaranteed from a standpoint of that's what Dtilt does, it can happen, and it will happen if Falco predicts where you're going. Falco is dependent on reading DI and guess who else does that? Fox and PM Wolf and their combos are devastating. Only characters I know. Maybe Captain Falcon does count, maybe ZSS too, and maybe Sheik. The fetishizing, obsession, with true combos, throw combos, kill confirms has done a lot of harm for characters who have combos, throw followups, and kill setups that aren't true. Case in point: Marth being looked down upon in favor of Roy who has throw conbos, DK and Robin being glorified for their newfound throw combos, and early on, Greninja because he has a U-throw combo instead of D-throw.

The other distinction is his ability to combo with high damage and knockback moves. Average per hit from him is 9% and bordered 10%. That's heavyweights levels of damage, but being able to combo like that... It becomes surreal when you realize that he just comboed with Bair in the beginning of the match and killed you with it at the end.

How his moves, particularly his normals, flow together probably also gives him the distinction of almost none of his moves are useless. You watch a match with Falco and you're bound to see him use 80% of his moveset. Each move serves it purpose so well and interact with each other so well it kind of becomes jarring when some characters are dependent on a handful of moves. This becomes ironic when people ask for Brawl Falco who was notorious for like 3 moves: Blaster, Dair, and D-throw.

Combining all of this. Falco's advantage is theoretically mediocre to poor for those true combo enthusiasts. In practice, it can range from average to devastating. Unless Falco's getting hit, he's never at a disadvantage. Stock deficits mean nothing to him when he can kill you every which way. Neutral would also be average to poor - at least it's not broken anymore - or above average in the right situation. Everyone has a max range; Falco staying out of range means he's fine. Close range is where you don't want to be against him. That's when his well-designed moves come into play. He's got answers to almost anything up close. It's never a, "Well, I only have jab and Ftilt for this." Footsies is his game and he's got a boot ready to break your shins. Oh, and he's got a razor sharp tail too.

That is Falco coming to theaters... eventually.

 

[Sir Tundra]

I recently watched this James Chen video where he goes over the idea of "opening up your opponent" in various fighting games. He briefly mentions Smash and how it approaches this concept, but another thing caught my attention.

James's basic principle of opening up your opponent is that blocking is overpowered and SHOULD be overpowered in fighting games, and that your goal should be to force your opponent to be afraid to block. You are essentially trying to tear down their defenses through psychological intimidation, and that's what allows mixups, traps, and other tactics to work, and he mentions this as a universal regardless of whether the game you're playing emphasizes crossups, high-lows, guard/shield break mechanics, or whatever. You don't win the neutral by doing a mixup, you win the neutral in order to do a mixup.

The reason I mention all of this is because it seems so different from the Smash Bros. mindset, where it's often argued that a fighting game should emphasize offense over defense, and "overly defensive" play is looked down upon. Sure, the idea of "I just want to FIGHT, not chase after some coward" is prevalent in all fighting games, but the mentality seems to bleed through in Smash even to the highest levels.

A bit late late to respond to but whatever.

When I was watching james chens smash portion of his vid it I ended up asking my self this question: "I wonder how different smash would actually be if it had the standard block mechanics with standard low mids and overheads as well as adding chip damage".

Also on the whole fighting games should emphasize offense over defense mindset.

Well we live in a E-sports Spectator age where all people wanna see are Wombo combos and third strike evo moments.

I would argue that Falco is the only major exception to this. Not Samus, not Zelda, not even Roy from Melee to Smash 4. Their core gameplay sticks; Samus is a zoner centered around Charge Shot, Zelda has very precise Fair and Bair, her defensive play style, and her doubles potential, and Roy keeping his strong up close gameplay that was refined in Smash 4.

Melee Falco was an insane comboer with a really good projectile for zoning and approaching and he was also the really strong on the stage, but horrible off stage. Smash 4 Luigi, Little Mac, Fox, and Mario can count for parts of this - Little Mac takes the latter part. Brawl Falco was zone you in ways that are broken, was considered to have trouble killing, but had setups to kill you and had a get out of jail card with Falco Phantasm. Smash 4 Sheik who is less abusive, but still abusive with zoning. Smash 4 Falco? Brawl Wolf in the early days because of Bair... but with worse air speed, worse projectile, and unsurprisingly, a worse Smash 4 Fox. Now? Hell if I know. He's got a Wolf Bair in animation, but with more power, a ZSS Uair, a Zelda Nair, a Pikachu Fair, a generic frame 16 Dair spike, a "Melee Fox U-throw to Uair" setup, a Wolf Up Smash in function, and a really underwhelming projectile that kind of forces him to play up close most of the time. Y'know, if he was supposed to be Fundamentals the Character, then Marth, Lucina, Kirby, the Pits, and more would have been better options.

They're defining Falco as they go which if that's Falco's shtick as this free-form character who's different in every game - the Mugen to Fox's Jin -, people will always be ****** at him. I wouldn't be surprised if Falco somehow ends up as a brute of a character that makes Ganondorf look weak and Luigi look like a neurologist in Smash 5. The only thing I can think of that notably defines and has stuck with Falco is he jumps high. That's not exactly something you want to be a notable trait, especially when temporary buffs like Palutena's Lightweight makes Falco a high jumper, but not the highest jumper not to mention Greninja's jump is barely shorter than Falco's. The other thing is he hits hard and he fights well up close. At least 70% of the cast can hold a claim on that. Oh, and the easy to gimp club with Little Mac, Dr. Mario, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Link, and more who have more positive definitions.

It's actually kind of odd how different falco is in every game.

I mean look at Fox. For the most part Fox is basically a fast rushdown character who has an amazing neutral and great approaches. In Melee it was hard to tell that cause it was melee fox. Melee fox was just whack yo.

Falco though is just different. First he's a combo heavy character with an amazing zoning presence

Then he was a heavy zoning character with great grappling skills.

And now he's a spacing character who with a ridiculous fair/bair and an ok combo game as far as combos go.

If Falco ends up being a brute that make ganon a run for his money in smash 5 then I will laugh my ass off so hard.


Edit: Alright time to go a bit off topic.

So I'm guessing y'all saw the new mario maker stage.

Makes me wonder if their's gonna be a new balance patch or maybe we might get a new smash direct revealing our first smash ballot winner. I mean the smash ballot thing is almost over after all

 

[Zionaze]

If they do reveal the ballot "winner" does that mean they already made it or they just announce that their going to start making it now.

 

[TriTails]

Okay... Y'know, I think more Luigi players should spam this move now... Luigi has a Wolf Down Smash... Use it!

I was fairly surprised too. I thought his U-air and D-smash were laggier than Mario's. But U-air's FAF surprised me, D-smash even more.

And it's certainly underrated. The only thing that holds people back from using it is probably because on how weak the first hit is, but the earth would explode if it was as strong as its back hit.

But aside from that, it's certainly a fine smash. 14% dude, back hit kills slightly earlier than U-smash, and it's the fastest smash Luigi has. Jab to D-smash can work (But grab is usually the superior option), and apparently if both hits of D-smash hits an opponent shields, it deals about 28-30 shield damage... so frickin' rare but it's hillarious .

Also, why are people saying Falco's jab is super punishable by F3 aerials? I break out Falcon's all the time but I always find Falco's to be one of the harder ones to break out of. Falco can probably just rapid jab, then quickly end it before he gets a foot to the face.

Better yet, give him a gentleman. Screw Fox. This pheasant needs it more.

 

[Vipermoon]

I was fairly surprised too. I thought his U-air and D-smash were laggier than Mario's. But U-air's FAF surprised me, D-smash even more.

And it's certainly underrated. The only thing that holds people back from using it is probably because on how weak the first hit is, but the earth would explode if it was as strong as its back hit.

But aside from that, it's certainly a fine smash. 14% dude, back hit kills slightly earlier than U-smash, and it's the fastest smash Luigi has. Jab to D-smash can work (But grab is usually the superior option), and apparently if both hits of D-smash hits an opponent shields, it deals about 28-30 shield damage... so frickin' rare but it's hillarious .

Also, why are people saying Falco's jab is super punishable by F3 aerials? I break out Falcon's all the time but I always find Falco's to be one of the harder ones to break out of. Falco can probably just rapid jab, then quickly end it before he gets a foot to the face.

Better yet, give him a gentleman. Screw Fox. This pheasant needs it more.

Yeah I'm so happy Luigi mains don't abuse the Dsmash as if they don't know about it. Mario's used to be that lagless (it still is lagless) but it was nerfed from Brawl like seemingly most Smash attacks lag-wise.

I can always excape Falco's jab with proper SDI.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nairo is confirmed for Umebura FAT.
I'll also take this time to remind y'all that it's a Mon-Tues, not Sat-Sun tournament (it lines up with a Japanese holiday).

Anyway, in order to sort of connect this post to the thread topic, I'll say that anyone interested in /// MUs should definitely keep close tabs on it, timezones and schedule permitting.

More like, everybody who has the time for it should by all means watch it. I'm not exaggerating when I say that this is comparable to CEO and EVO.

 

[Zannabluke]

if the 30th patch contains any balance changes, do you think that tbh5 won't update their games and will still use 1.0?

 

[Wintermelon43]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOdhFajSdj8 so, DLC stage confirmed for September 30th, which means there'll be a patch of some sort, and I'm willing to bet balance changes will be in that patch. Only a few days before the upcoming national. Which I'm not going to because I missed the cutoff date
I'm sure discussion about hypothetical balance changes shouldn't go here until it actually happens, but hype!

Also, when is Umebara? Next week?

Also hype for another definitely-legal DLC stage

That's not going to be legal. Changes all the time, and even then many layouts may be ban-worthy if it was always like that.

 

[Rizen]

Oh, and the easy to gimp club with Little Mac, Dr. Mario, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Link, and more who have more positive definitions.

I'm not sure what your criteria is but Link has a decent recovery this time around.
http://smashboards.com/threads/recovery-rankings.381244/

 

[Routa]

That's not going to be legal. Changes all the time, and even then many layouts may be ban-worthy if it was always like that.

Yet PS1 is legal in Melee. Go figure

But anyways... What does Mii Brawler and Gunner have over Swordfighter? I see these guys placed kinda high (well Brawler) in customs on and off tier lists. Why so? I can somewhat understand Brawlers placing over Swordfighter in customs on (yet I think his placing overall is a bit too high), but still.

 

[Jamurai]

Yet PS1 is legal in Melee. Go figure

But anyways... What does Mii Brawler and Gunner have over Swordfighter? I see these guys placed kinda high (well Brawler) in customs on and off tier lists. Why so? I can somewhat understand Brawlers placing over Swordfighter in customs on (yet I think his placing overall is a bit too high), but still.

Because no one plays Swordy so not very many people know that they aren't garbage anymore. With customs Swordy gets a different projectile (shuriken) and Hero's Spin, which is frankly godlike OOS and is just a great kill move in general, which is one of Swordy's major problems (lack of reliable kill moves/setups). They also got buffed and are just not as bad as they used to be. Relative to everyone else they're probably still mid to low tier though. With customs Brawler is by far and away the best Mii, and Gunner is probably at a similar level to Swordy (I'm not calling it either way tho). With custom weight and moves, Brawler is top 10 or 15 easily, so mobile, so dangerous.

With customs off, Miis are all low tier / probably not viable. Swordy > Gunner > Brawler imo, because Hero's Spin is really the only significant thing Swordy lacks with 1111 rules, whereas Gunner and Brawler both miss out on arguably their best moves (grenade and Helicopter Kick respectively). In addition, Gunner loses a few other good projectile options (which is what their whole game plan is), and Brawler loses their flip jump thing and the chargable punch move as well = much more predictable and significantly lowers their kill power. Also they all lose the ability to be small and hence faster, which nerfs them pretty hard. Brawler losing those moves and the ability to be short and thin knocks them all the way down to bottom tier. Such an extreme character.

 

[bc1910]

Patch on the 30th? I imagine a few characters will be flipping around competitively. Will be shocked if Sheik gets out untouched.

I do like patch time, I must admit.

I know it's seriously stupid that Nintendo don't give us patch notes with balance changes. It's an archaic way to update a game and they really shouldn't be doing it.

But the few hours before Dantarion's data dump are so much fun. The excitement, the surprise buffs, even watching the placebo ****fest unfold.

I dunno. I just think exploration and secrets have always been massive parts of Nintendo games, and the "searching for buffs" aspect of patching is classic Nintendo.

 

[FSLink]

Patch on the 30th? I imagine a few characters will be flipping around competitively. Will be shocked if Sheik gets out untouched.

I do like patch time, I must admit.

I know it's seriously stupid that Nintendo don't give us patch notes with balance changes. It's an archaic way to update a game and they really shouldn't be doing it.

But the few hours before Dantarion's data dump are so much fun. The excitement, the surprise buffs, even watching the placebo ****fest unfold.

I dunno. I just think exploration and secrets have always been massive parts of Nintendo games, and the "searching for buffs" aspect of patching is classic Nintendo.

Meh, even Nintendo's other games like Splatoon have patch notes. Even Capcom figured out that hiding patch notes is silly nowadays, it wastes time in letting people learn how to figure out and effectively utilize or adjust to the new changes.

The placebo thing is hilarious but after awhile it just gets sad. Luckily people have gotten much better in providing proof if they "feel" something is different post-patch/pre-Dantarion data dump. I guess it is very classic Nintendo but I'd rather experience that through enjoying the nostalgic inducing stages/music/characters rather than an awful design decision.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It seems like a Sora Studios Ltd. thing rather than a Nintendo thing. Nintendo has patch notes even for Mario Kart if I recall, if Smash was devved in-house I imagine they'd have the same thing, but alas.....

I think it's cute though, it's annoying but it brings all of us together to scour for changes and it's kind of fun!

 

[Asdioh]

I can't believe how many people took my sarcastic "SMM stage will definitely be legal " post seriously :/
For the record, the stage is an instant ban. Obviously.

Patch on the 30th? I imagine a few characters will be flipping around competitively. Will be shocked if Sheik gets out untouched.

I do like patch time, I must admit.

I know it's seriously stupid that Nintendo don't give us patch notes with balance changes. It's an archaic way to update a game and they really shouldn't be doing it.

But the few hours before Dantarion's data dump are so much fun. The excitement, the surprise buffs, even watching the placebo ****fest unfold.

I dunno. I just think exploration and secrets have always been massive parts of Nintendo games, and the "searching for buffs" aspect of patching is classic Nintendo.

I agree! Although is it really an "archaic" way to update the game? I think "revolutionary" might be a better term. Has there ever been a game in history that has a competitive aspect changed without patch notes at all?
I'm excited, maybe we'll see Kirby's Upward-angled Sourspot Fsmash get nerfed by another 1%, or some other meaningful change for the character. I'm tired of all my free wins with him, he's too OP.

edit:

Even Capcom figured out that hiding patch notes is silly nowadays, it wastes time in letting people learn how to figure out and effectively utilize or adjust to the new changes.

oh? But yes, patch notes would be nice. We already saw how much time gets wasted when subtle changes go unnoticed, like the hitlag changes last patch.

 

[Ffamran]

Also, why are people saying Falco's jab is super punishable by F3 aerials? I break out Falcon's all the time but I always find Falco's to be one of the harder ones to break out of. Falco can probably just rapid jab, then quickly end it before he gets a foot to the face.

Better yet, give him a gentleman. Screw Fox. This pheasant needs it more.

There's enough end lag between jabs and enough of a stutter between jab 2 and rapid jab that if you hesitate between a full jab or a jab mixup, Falco can get punished by anything frame 5 and below. Hey, at least it's not Peach's jab. Can't act at frame 28 for jab 1 and frame 30 for jab 2. This is on a frame 2 jab... What's she going to do? Setup into a fully charged Smash if she had slightly less end lag? I really don't get why a lot of jabs in Smash have a ton of end lag. That ones that don't are really noticeable.

 

[DunnoBro]

As long as characters like luigi, ness, and falcon exist I don't want sheik nerfed in any way that effects her overall dominance.

Looking at melee, having a character on the more quick, technical, and unforgiving end of the spectrum be at the top seems good for a competitive meta.

When customs was a bigger thing, I caught a lot more people freezing while using Duck Hunt when they weren't used to the other Gunmen (Quick and Mega).

Every time.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Patch on the 30th? I imagine a few characters will be flipping around competitively. Will be shocked if Sheik gets out untouched.

I do like patch time, I must admit.

I know it's seriously stupid that Nintendo don't give us patch notes with balance changes. It's an archaic way to update a game and they really shouldn't be doing it.

But the few hours before Dantarion's data dump are so much fun. The excitement, the surprise buffs, even watching the placebo ****fest unfold.

I dunno. I just think exploration and secrets have always been massive parts of Nintendo games, and the "searching for buffs" aspect of patching is classic Nintendo.

tbh I'm more inbetween when it comes to patches. Sure we get our necessary buffs/nerfs but then theirs things that just don't make sense like how diddy kong got nerfed a second time even though the first nerf was good enough.

As of sheik getting nerfed. Oh man sheik is definitely getting nerfed if their is gonna be a balance patch on the 30th. I mean I have no problems with sheik. But it's pretty obvious that sheik is the best character in sm4sh right now with the fair and the needles and the amazing neutral and the 50/50's. How much of a nerf sheik will get is tbd.
If sheik were to receive a big nerf then the question remains.. who'll be the character to take sheiks title as the queen/king of smash?

edit: Wait greninjas been nerfed twice. Diddy's been nerfed twice. So that means... Oh no.. RUN FOX RUUUUUN!!!

If they do reveal the ballot "winner" does that mean they already made it or they just announce that their going to start making it now.

Dude That's a damn good question. It would honestly suck if they were to announce it and then finish it 5 months later. However it would be a huge surprise if they already finished it.