Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Smog Frog]

off the topic of a balance patch(this octweekly ****fest needs to stop if i could put my 2c on this), what do you guys think of command grabs? are there any actually bad command grabs?

 

[Green L]

Can anyone explain why Ness is high tier in smash 4? If its because of his super strong back throw, Ness' has had a strong back throw since smash 64 yet no one mentions it in those games. Besides his back throw, everything else about him isn't extraordinary and just average

 

[Antonykun]

off the topic of a balance patch(this octweekly ****fest needs to stop if i could put my 2c on this), what do you guys think of command grabs? are there any actually bad command grabs?

Force Palm is a pretty poor grab because it doesn't grab in the air (it's still a grab that kills so it might still be good) its a good poke though

Can anyone explain why Ness is high tier in smash 4? If its because of his super strong back throw, Ness' has had a strong back throw since smash 64 yet no one mentions it in those games. Besides his back throw, everything else about him isn't extraordinary and just average

Two things really, down throw true combos so his grab is scary at any percents. Edgehogging being gone means his recovery is actually threatening. Other than that he doesn't have that much notable changes IIRC and just double posted on my phone sorry @Spirst

 

[~ Gheb ~]

off the topic of a balance patch(this octweekly ****fest needs to stop if i could put my 2c on this), what do you guys think of command grabs? are there any actually bad command grabs?

inb4theYoshimains

 

[Wintermelon43]

Can anyone explain why Ness is high tier in smash 4? If its because of his super strong back throw, Ness' has had a strong back throw since smash 64 yet no one mentions it in those games. Besides his back throw, everything else about him isn't extraordinary and just average

It's more than that. It helps a lot, but there's also a great forward air, every other aieral is also great, great edgeuguarding, can heal from certain attacks, and can very easily KO

 

[Rikkhan]

dafuq?

forget about it I just got carried away.

 

[ARGHETH]

off the topic of a balance patch(this octweekly ****fest needs to stop if i could put my 2c on this), what do you guys think of command grabs? are there any actually bad command grabs?

Robin's is...decent. It's not very useful at lower percents (hits on F16 and low healing), and very useful when your % is a lot higher than your opponent's (like if you end their stock).

 

[Zannabluke]

If they do reveal the ballot "winner" does that mean they already made it or they just announce that their going to start making it now.

it's obvious that they had already some fighters in store and wanted to see which ones of them are more popular

 

[⑨ball]

Robin's is...decent. It's not very useful at lower percents (hits on F16 and low healing), and very useful when your % is a lot higher than your opponent's (like if you end their stock).

Robin's CG seems fine at low percents. The range on it is about 4-5 times what her normal grab length is,(somewhere around her dtilt range) it hits slightly above and below it meaning it can beat shield grabs against her landing, and it's cool down isn't that bad either. Of course you'd want to conserve it since the healing when the percent differential is high(unless you're doing book shenanigans), but it's really effective at making people not want to block.

The real down fall of this move is that it can't be used offstage or you go into free fall. =/

DDD's command throw seems pretty bad in comparison to the others so it's probably the worst CG, but I don't think there are any ones that are completely bad and without use in normal play.

 

[Loota]

Force Palm is a pretty poor grab because it doesn't grab in the air (it's still a grab that kills so it might still be good) its a good poke though

Well, I wouldn't ever call a grab that kills bad, but it's got more utility outside of that too. It activates on frame 1 when hitting the ground if started in the air which is really big. This makes shielding against a Lucario approaching from the air really risky and he can mix it up with a AS charge too, which beats shields quite effortlessly and can setup for a kill too in the form of usmash.

And boy does it kill early with some aura seasoning.

 

[Sinister Slush]

inb4theYoshimains

Ya see, there's moments where we come in on our owns, usually just me being bored and browsing back here or Dunnobro (co-main yoshi) talking about yoshi before I get the chance. Other times we pop up is cause... man that b8 is mighty juicy tho

Our command grab is fine, an unneeded nerf to it though along with dair and DA back then, I wish grab armor was a thing over throw armor. Indirect nerfs to most or all command grabs, dunno if there's ever been an instance of Bowser Side-b getting hit out before he could jump with em.

 

[Deathcarter]

off the topic of a balance patch(this octweekly ****fest needs to stop if i could put my 2c on this), what do you guys think of command grabs? are there any actually bad command grabs?

Ganon's Up-B is complete ****.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Besides his back throw, everything else about him isn't extraordinary and just average

What.
Have you ever seen his air game?
And combo game?
And edgeguard game?
And mindgame game?

 

[HFlash]

Any reason why Peach's Castle not legal? It has one hazard, and that one hazard is consistent, stays in one spot, and if it does kill, kills way less than say, transitions in Delfino/Castle Siege and Metaknight's OP ship. I have asked in the past in another, less active forum and didn't get a response and since someone mentioned stage legality thought I'd bring it up here.

 

[Planty]

And mindgame game?

What kind of mixups does Ness have?

 

[Smog Frog]

tomahawk mainly, its super dank and good w/ because your options out of falling(uair, throws mainly)

 

[Teshie U]

Any reason why Peach's Castle not legal? It has one hazard, and that one hazard is consistent, stays in one spot, and if it does kill, kills way less than say, transitions in Delfino/Castle Siege and Metaknight's OP ship. I have asked in the past in another, less active forum and didn't get a response and since someone mentioned stage legality thought I'd bring it up here.

this isnt a bad question, i honestly dont know why. might be because it was crazy in 64, but its far less intrusive than most CPs and even dreamland (why is this a starter over lylat?)

 

[Xeze]

Any reason why Peach's Castle not legal? It has one hazard, and that one hazard is consistent, stays in one spot, and if it does kill, kills way less than say, transitions in Delfino/Castle Siege and Metaknight's OP ship. I have asked in the past in another, less active forum and didn't get a response and since someone mentioned stage legality thought I'd bring it up here.

Bumper is hella annoying. And the two triangular structures on the sides create techable surfaces creating caves of life, which can cause the match to drag on. Those are probably the reasons why it's banned.

 

[Planty]

Also, I don't have the stage, but from what I can tell, if that moving platform is fully extended to one side with you on the edge, you get hit off, and then the platform starts moving the other way, you more than likely won't make it back. IDK if this is a reason to ban a stage, but it's there. It creates an element of randomness.

 

[Antonykun]

What.
Have you ever seen his air game?
And combo game?
And edgeguard game?
And mindgame game?

Granted his mindgsmes come mostly from threatening you with back throw

 

[Mario766]

Because the stage is based around who gets center stage and the main platform under the bridge. If you get there and secure it you can't lose.

 

[Routa]

Bumper is hella annoying. And the two triangular structures on the sides create techable surfaces creating caves of life, which can cause the match to drag on. Those are probably the reasons why it's banned.

Yet Arena Ferox is legal in 3DS one. Even tho it has "Cave of Life" it still is one of the best stages in any Smash game. What I am trying to say is that "Cave of Life" should not be THE REASON for banning a stage.

 

[Teshie U]

Its really never been proven that "cave of life" is a bad thing. This is the first time we have had a techable structure that didnt also give us wall infinites and circle camping.

Because the stage is based around who gets center stage and the main platform under the bridge. If you get there and secure it you can't lose.

wtf stage control instead of camping the side for backthrows? what an unfair concept. I'd like to see some proof that winning is impossible from the outside.

 

[meleebrawler]

Bumper is hella annoying. And the two triangular structures on the sides create techable surfaces creating caves of life, which can cause the match to drag on. Those are probably the reasons why it's banned.

Not to mention the 64 stage standard issue giant blastzones.

It's even easier to survive now that you can grab the edges of both the sliding platform and the main one, and that almost everyone who isn't 64 Pikachu or Kirby no longer has an *** recovery. To this day I think the original still holds the distinction of being the only stage with no ledges at all.

Yet Arena Ferox is legal in 3DS one. Even tho it has "Cave of Life" it still is one of the best stages in any Smash game. What I am trying to say is that "Cave of Life" should not be THE REASON for banning a stage.

It's only temporary in the shifting arena. Peach's Castle's is permanent.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Friendly reminder that there's an entire thread about stage legality, and it's located here.

I will now indulge in hypocrisy and participate.

Also, I don't have the stage, but from what I can tell, if that moving platform is fully extended to one side with you on the edge, you get hit off, and then the platform starts moving the other way, you more than likely won't make it back. IDK if this is a reason to ban a stage, but it's there. It creates an element of randomness.

I think "randomness" is the exact wrong word to use because there is zero guesswork involved with the platform's movement. If you get caught at the edge when it's fully extended, then it's your fault on multiple levels. Not only did you get hit or grabbed to begin with, you willingly put yourself in a location where doing so carries the extra risk of getting hit offstage while the ledge starts retreating. (Alternately the opponent comboed you from center stage to that position, in which case kudos to them.)

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Psssssssssst
http://smashboards.com/threads/stage-discussion.324223/
Thanks

 

[Xeze]

So ZeRo recently said he thinks Pikachu is the 2nd best in the game. Thoughts?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

So ZeRo recently said he thinks Pikachu is the 2nd best in the game. Thoughts?

I think he forgot about his ZSS video...

 

[wedl!!]

Hasn't everyone who frequents this thread agreed to stop listening to Zero?

 

[DanGR]

Did he say why?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Did he say why?

Basically he said since Luigi is his only bad matchup (according to him he goes evenish with top tiers), it makes him the second best. His claim is that since Luigis will get demolished by shieks in bracket anyways, Pika can go far.
(Keep in mind this can all be irrelevant by Big House)

 

[A_Kae]

Did he say why?

This video is what people are talking about, I think.

 

[HFlash]

I made the legality comment because well, the official Stage legality thread is no where as active as this one, was wondering if people agreed with me (which so far seems to be the case). All I'm saying is that Peach's Castle should be legal because of the fact that it is a consistent stage. The platforms move in a consistent manner, the corner platforms stay the same, and the bumper stays in the same spot. Also, the issue with abusing the retreating platform would be heavily diminished in this game due to the "magnet" hands effect. I'm wondering if any Backroomer personnel have given this any serious thought.

Plus the stage would be amazing for Marth cough cough*

 

[RIP_Lucas]

So ZeRo recently said he thinks Pikachu is the 2nd best in the game. Thoughts?

ZeRo's YouTube videos are more about getting views than progressing the meta (i'm not judging, the man's gotta eat).

Pikachu is definitely a very good character, but calling it the 2nd best when he hasn't done as much as say, ZSS is a difficult sell

 

[HeavyLobster]

Did he say why?

We all know why.

 

[Xeze]

Hasn't everyone who frequents this thread agreed to stop listening to Zero?

I stopped taking what ZeRo says seriously the moment he said that the only tilt Mario uses is up tilt.

 

[Trifroze]

Why was Luigi 4th on his tier list if they all get demolished by Sheiks though (´◔ ‿ゝ◔`)

It may seem harmless and understandable to make sensational videos but misinformation should never be accepted because of "someone needing to make their living". That said, it's his opinion and he acknowledges that. The problem about all of this is that thousands of people who don't know better are still going to directly adapt their opinions from Zero and use him as an authority to justify them, reason be damned. Zero is the only one making videos like those so in those people's eyes his word is law instead of an opinion of a single top player. He's in such a powerful position at the moment that he has the responsibility to either be more consistent about his opinions, give better reasons for them or always clearly emphasize that it's just what he personally thinks.

 

[Charoite]

I made the legality comment because well, the official Stage legality thread is no where as active as this one, was wondering if people agreed with me (which so far seems to be the case). All I'm saying is that Peach's Castle should be legal because of the fact that it is a consistent stage. The platforms move in a consistent manner, the corner platforms stay the same, and the bumper stays in the same spot. Also, the issue with abusing the retreating platform would be heavily diminished in this game due to the "magnet" hands effect. I'm wondering if any Backroomer personnel have given this any serious thought.

Plus the stage would be amazing for Marth cough cough*

The stage is banned because it could increase the time of the matches with the caves of life, so it will make games run for more time and boring the audience(mostly stream monsters)
so that a no go for TOs, theres nothing uncompetitive about the stage really.

And you people are taking the opinion of zero too seriously, what you need to do is ask other top or high player about what they think about the metagame is not zero fault that nobody make videos or express about the metagame.

 

[DanGR]

Basically he said since Luigi is his only bad matchup (according to him he goes evenish with top tiers), it makes him the second best. His claim is that since Luigis will get demolished by shieks in bracket anyways, Pika can go far.
(Keep in mind this can all be irrelevant by Big House)

Seems reasonable. If those are his matchups, pikachu seems like a solid contender for 2nd best.

 

[bc1910]

Can anyone explain why Ness is high tier in smash 4? If its because of his super strong back throw, Ness' has had a strong back throw since smash 64 yet no one mentions it in those games. Besides his back throw, everything else about him isn't extraordinary and just average

Almost all of Ness' moves have been tuned up in terms of damage, knockback or reliability. For example his Fair, PK Fire and Up/Down Smash can all hit reliably with better linking hitboxes now. PK Fire is devastating vs some characters because it's high damaging and can combo straight into a kill.

In a game where shields are crucial, Ness has an amazing OoS game and maybe the best overall options against enemy shields. Best kill throw in the game, low percent combos from Dthrow, and good tomahawk with options to kill from the short hop itself (Uair and Nair, or even Bair if they crossup roll).

His disadvantage state isn't quite as dumb as the tippy top tiers like Sheik, ZSS and Pikachu but he has a really stupid, floaty airdodge and frame 3 Nair to get him out of trouble. Ness' airdodge > airdodge is almost impossible to hit, and airdodge > Uair can kill you.

I used to think Ness was overrated but he's a really good character. He can lay waste to the best defensive option in the game and just generally has a lot of power behind his moves. The only thing I still think is overrated about him is his Dthrow, since people act like it combos forever while in reality it stops comboing really early against opponents who DI away. It's still very powerful at low percents though.

Ness is solid for many reasons.