Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Smog Frog]

nair isnt frame 3. its frame 5.

 

[Shaya]

Do we really need a weekly or so hate campaign on zero?

His demographic for his videos are less about us and more about the people who aren't active within the competitive scene (wifi players/stream watchers only, etc). He helps keep lower levels talking about the game with interest, which is good. Yeah I may overhear the "ZeRo says Pika is #2" and my sigh, cringe or not care reflexively but it's not their fault they don't have other forms of dialogue to refer to, it's ours.
Moral of the anecdote: ZeRo does a great service to our wider community and a very low minority of people who succeed at tournaments (or want to) rely on ZeRo's videos. Get over this already. Just like someone may throw out "I think Pika is #2 because look at how well ESAM did against Zero" (how many times have you read something that inferred this in JUST this thread alone?), and it's seen as a fair point, but if ZERO says it as the guy who was directly impacted it garners negativity.

"A comedian shouldn't need to explain their jokes"
Communication is an annoying thing, especially for someone without an English background. I'm not sure how many times he's going to need to highlight he's just "expressing his opinion". So just because idiots are going to be idiots he needs to take up even more time in his videos to have a minute+ foreword to say "REMEMBER JUST AN OPINION" and wrapping up every single sentence with "remember, an opinion" and at the end of the video spend 2 minutes talking about why it's just an opinion. JUST SO PEOPLE DON'T FORGET WITHIN 2 AND A HALF SECONDS OF HIM NOT SAYING IT'S HIS OPINION that it is in fact, his opinion. Then you wonder what's the point of saying anything at all? Can't this be logically seen as redundant by any other language-based content creator ever?
At some point the comedian who has to explain every joke or has to remind people "it's a joke" is going to jump off the proverbial cliff.

 

[Nobie]

Played at The Break Weekly, winning one game and lost two, going all Mewtwo. I actually still feel pretty confident that Mewtwo can get things done and it's my own lack of skill that held me back.

 

[Xeze]

Talking about Mewtwo eh?

 

[Smog Frog]

can get **** done. its just that **** gets done to him 2x as fast.

 

[Trifroze]

If reminding people that something is your personal opinion is too redundant, the only option you have left is to be more consistent about your opinions with better explanations behind them, and if you can't do that then at least play the devil's advocate and give everyone a different side to the subject if there is one. Planting ideas into people's minds without giving actual reasons to why those ideas are valid or those ideas contradicting each other isn't a good thing whether it creates discussion or not. Especially with a powerful authority, you'll end up with people who have strong opinions and loud voices without actually any basis for thinking that way, yet they spread it around and let their perceptions and actions be affected by it. What I'm saying is sure, let them do that, but if their reasoning is bad then you should not respect it but instead criticize it and then ignore it, not say it's alright because someone needs to make a living.

Zero does a lot of good things so give him credit for that, but don't credit him for misinformation or even simply shrug it off. Furthermore that misinformation isn't our fault, the only thing that is our fault is not taking the necessary means to contest it once it's been done, although I personally always try to do that.

What's a shame about all of this is that critique like this is often seen as offensive towards whoever you're criticizing, but that's not the case. If anyone truly values accurate information and finding out the reality behind things they shouldn't be offended by critique but instead use it for their improvement. If that's not what they care about, they better make it known loud and clear and then do whatever they want.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Speaking of Ness, is the the only character with a dsmash that hits back-to-front?

 

[Nobie]

can get **** done. its just that **** gets done to him 2x as fast.

Admittedly that's part of the what makes Mewtwo fun to use. You have to really use everything in your toolkit OR ELSE.

 

[Antonykun]

Speaking of Ness, is the the only character with a dsmash that hits back-to-front?

Well Luma Down Smash hits back and forth too not that anyone cares

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Well Luma Down Smash hits back and forth too not that anyone cares

...I'm not sure how I forgot about that one. I think I was considering it in the context of Rosalina & Luma together, in which case dsmash basically hits both sides at once, twice.

 

[DungeonMaster]

The Samus boards have pulled together footage of all the problems with Samus in smash 4. Here is the gory details, and what we've pieced together trying to explain Sakurai's comments at E3.
Do we have a native Japanese speaker in the crowd? I have Japanese friends but they lack the smash lingo, I want to get this translated.

 

[Antonykun]

The Samus boards have pulled together footage of all the problems with Samus in smash 4. Here is the gory details, and what we've pieced together trying to explain Sakurai's comments at E3.
Do we have a native Japanese speaker in the crowd? I have Japanese friends but they lack the smash lingo, I want to get this translated.

I was carefully watching the video until you said Samus has the worst grab in the game

As a Villager main, I am completely insulted that false claim

Villager's grab is barely larger than most grabs and i wouldn't be surprised if its smaller than bowsers is slower than fast tethers like Toon link's dash grab or Yoshi's dash grab even worse than that the move only has 2 active frames 2 ACTIVE FRAMES while having horrendous endlag sure maybe Samus's grab is a bit slower and has more endlag but at least that move has far more range and active hitboxes, which gives samus the ability to space herself to get people off guard with the range of her grab

 

[Sinister Slush]

Zero's opinion on Pika isn't even his own, he's just saying pretty much what ESAM would say on a regular day.

 

[Browny]

That video was annoyingly long, hard to read and factually incorrect in many places. Most of the interactions of 'broken' moves you described were completely explained by the attack simply not hitting and samus not having a disjoint on her body on certain attacks, like many characters dont.

Zelda using nayrus love to fall through usmash and marios fsmash having 'priority' over samus' were not good choices to prove your points, since firstly zelda would fall through any attack with that and secondly, priority isnt a thing in smash.

The section on charge shot again, its completely blown out of proportion. EVERY clip shown is completely explainable and affects EVERY character with a projectile, nothing unique there. mario/pk boys reflectors working backwards is a bit of a joke, but Charge Shot is an amazing move, its flaws affect every other projectile in the game except the likes of Thoron.

I'm not going to criticise it any further because it will take too long. There's a lot of issues with it though.

Its ironic because you say the design concept is great but the execution is flawed... that about sums it up.

I swear I wanna make a video acting as if Marth is the worst character in the game and make his flaws look ridiculous by deliberately missing moves and complaining about people airdodging my dair I bet I could make something as convincing.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I was carefully watching the video until you said Samus has the worst grab in the game

As a Villager main, I am completely insulted that false claim

Villager's grab is barely larger than most grabs and i wouldn't be surprised if its smaller than bowsers is slower than fast tethers like Toon link's dash grab or Yoshi's dash grab even worse than that the move only has 2 active frames 2 ACTIVE FRAMES while having horrendous endlag sure maybe Samus's grab is a bit slower and has more endlag but at least that move has far more range and active hitboxes, which gives samus the ability to space herself to get people off guard with the range of her grab

How about Pac Man's grab where it's a Frame 12 up close grab, or a FRAME 22 TETHER that has DEAD SPOTS in its active frames?

Like, yeezus. Its frame data is "12-14, 22-24, 32-39", which, in English, is pretty bad, especially when it has a FAF of 76.

I'm pretty much in agreement with @ Browny , in that Samus has problems but the video and its presentation don't really come off to me in a good way and the format is really, REALLY unintuitive, for people who want to translate and even regular guys like me who want to read it.

 

[Antonykun]

How about Pac Man's grab where it's a Frame 12 up close grab, or a FRAME 22 TETHER that has DEAD SPOTS in its active frames?

Like, yeezus. Its frame data is "12-14, 22-24, 32-39", which, in English, is pretty bad, especially when it has a FAF of 76.

i personally like to live in a world where pacman's grab doesn't exist that way i don't keep myself up at night debating to myself which is the worse grab of the two (i have done this before)

 

[Shaya]

My point is that some things should be implied or understood.
And when people make the mistake of misconstruing things, we remind them what the author's intentions and who they're accounting for. Yes, it's redundant for someone who makes a lot of content to need to remind people it's his opinion every single feasible instance. He has authority but not on really anything or anyone that matters (that isn't just the standard opinion of others). You know it's just his opinion and he's just making content for a living and for the non-competitively active demographic. If it was remotely possible ZeRo was a prime factor to any tangible thing, I'd be worried (if you think he does I'd be glad to read the argument).

Yeah it could be "better" by your suggestions, but why does he need to when we already get it. It's our responsibility to engage those who take his opinion as fact just like we would any other average following, those people would get a lot more in depth opinion or ideas from places like here. However, they aren't going to come here. They're going to follow tweets, watch streams or videos and maybe post on and read reddit occasionally. If it wasn't him then the real wonder I have is how are we losing engagement to 50,000 to 100,000 filthy casuals that support the scene's growth. Yeah he may not help the ignorant masses, but without him they would be even more in the dark and possibly not interested in Smash4 at all.
People talking is a lot better than not talking at all, and his style and choices thus far have been extremely successful. Why alter things for what's likely 1% (I could see it being up to 10%) of the people who watch his videos? Those wishing things were more complex or holistic in analysing and have it push discourse to be more "correctly" aligned in low to mid level instances... aren't wrong, but why not just do just that? Make it just as high quality and engaging... COMPETE if you really worry about the non-active scene.

The amount of smashers I've seen over the years go through this process of
New to the scene but competitively interested, try to engage any conversation they can. The widespread information out there is ZeRo, so they come in with his opinions. Gives us a starting point to just playing with them and answering their questions, "yeah they said you can do this and that" "yeah you can but...".
People who have stuck around a while who still look at fluff stuff but are more locally communal. You'll start to read/hear the tone of "hear what zero said recently? lol". In a short period of time of scene engagement players start to question what he says or understand the need to figure out the "whys" in opinions. These people are apart of the conversation and are very open to other opinions from people they respect since they entered the scene properly. This produces scene-insular opinions/metas, and we try our best to dilute these as much as possible (almost Globally, or at least in the West/English speaking realms), but we'll never reach consensus on everything in every region.
If they're lucky they expand further, become meta nerds, but at the above point most people stop. They're happy with taking things from those they respect usually shown in personal environments, they can just play someone and get the gist of why something is good/bad/strong/weak/terrible/broken in under a few minutes; this is the easiest and somewhat ideal - pragmatism. But for those of us here we try to putty/glue up our gaps with articulation only.

So yeah, while it isn't perfect, it's infinitely better than nothing at all. I like people who have opinions and ideas about the game over the many you see "I thought I'd try out a tournament, some of my friends play, don't look at anything or follow much, what's smashboards? oh I know I'll lose I don't try or care" that you likely never see again. I don't feel he needs to change something that isn't broke. We just need to have better resources for competitively interested players to engage. He's helping us by giving us a larger group of people that may trickle into our "world" than there would be otherwise. If you think things would be heavily resolved just by overstating that just like any other player with no game developer provenance that it's his opinion so often it would send me/others insane to help with idiots ... iono, idiots are idiots and will always find something to be an idiot about. At least zero-styled ignorance is easy to spot and phase out (or give them an earful of... love if they've engaged the scene).

Most of the people who actively attend tournaments in my region don't talk about ZeRo's stuff. Maybe it's worse in other places. Maybe I'm lucky ZeRo isn't ruining my ability to tell people the truth who want to hear the truth like perhaps elsewhere.

Anyway something something rhetoric speeches. Sorry. </PerspectiveFinisher>

 

[Ffamran]

That video was annoyingly long, hard to read and factually incorrect in many places. Most of the interactions of 'broken' moves you described were completely explained by the attack simply not hitting and samus not having a disjoint on her body on certain attacks, like many characters dont.

Zelda using nayrus love to fall through usmash and marios fsmash having 'priority' over samus' were not good choices to prove your points, since firstly zelda would fall through any attack with that and secondly, priority isnt a thing in smash.

Its ironic because you say the design concept is great but the execution is flawed... that about sums it up.

Oh yeah! I remember that I never posted my overview of the earlier Samus design flaws here! Time to be a self-righteous *** hat!

So... we have an extended version now... Let's give this a rundown. Also, bear in mind that I don't play Samus, so I don't know her enough to make "good" calls.

All right, Nair... Lots of aerials don't really hit when used that close to the ground, so there's nothing wrong with this. It's wonky at times, though... So, take Falco's Uair: it hits from his back to front and there is a hitbox on him, so a center hitbox. Using it close to the ground, if you try to hit with it reversed, it's probably not going to hit. If you try to hit with the front, Falco can hit with his feet, but it'll miss on shorter characters. If he's right next to them, the center hitbox usually hits. Not a Samus issue; it's more of a universal issue for aerials used close to the ground.

Dash attack. We get it, Captain Falcon's dash attack is stupidly disjointed... Samus's is in the same case as Ike's dash attack and Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot. The animation has them setting up before hitting. Nothing wrong with this except that Ike and Ganondorf have more range. Ike's uppercut with Ragnell during dash attack hits under him and reaches far horizontally while Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot as evident by its name has his freaking leg out in front of him and he's traveling fairly quick. Samus's dash attack is a tackle which doesn't exactly have a lot of range since the hitbox is just on her body. What they could do here is make it so Samus readies herself quicker which would mean she hits quicker. Kind of like how Little Mac rushes forward then hits, but he does this much quicker than Samus. So, let's say it's frame 7 now instead of frame 10.

The walking in front and having moves miss... This is a problem for Marth and Lucina's Shield Breaker, pretty sure (Dr.) Mario's Side Smash, and a couple of other moves. DK's Up Smash won't hit Mario while he's next to them or spaced meaning he has to hit people if they're above them or they're tall enough. That's a bigger issue than this which won't happen a lot. I mean, sure they could make it so Samus has a hitbox that pushes you like ROB's Up Smash, but that would end up giving her like a frame 8 Side Smash that's pretty damn powerful and it's already the fastest Side Smash alongside Marth, Lucina, and the Pits. The major issue here as shown by Link walking into the blast is its active frames. Samus's Side Smash hits on frame 10-11, 2 active frames, contrast this with Marth and Lucina's hitting at frame 10-13, 4 active frames, or the Pits' two-hit Side Smash that hits on frames 10 and 21. Or how about a similarly explosive Side Smash? Mario's at frame 15-17, 3 active frames. Yeah... a simple fix would be to add another frame for the hitbox like what they did to fix Ike's Fair so it hits above him. This would mean Samus's Side Smash should be frame 10-12 instead of the short 10-11.

Screw Attack... Really? No invincibility or anything... Meanwhile, Marth, Lucina, (Dr.) Mario, and Ryu. Simple fix yet again, just give it invincibility or intangibility on startup. It's frame 5, so just make the intangibility frame 5 as well. Invincibility would look cool if it's something like this.

Not going to comment on Missiles since yeah, it's an explosive, but if she had access to 2 kill projectiles that can be set up, it's going to be stupid. Even Villager doesn't have kill projectiles like that. Side Smash is purely vertical, Fair and Bair don't really kill until later percents unless you're near the blast zones, dash attack isn't that powerful, Lloid doesn't really kill well or is intended to kill, and calling the Tree a projectile is kind of pushing it...

Down Smash for its power should be faster. As in the Pits, Zelda, and Ryu faster which would more or less undermine her unique Down Smash... Well, it should be unique. I don't know, making it faster would just help right now. If you could do something else, then sure.

Dtilt... Ike's Dtilt doesn't kill at that percent either. Why? Because apparently, explosions and enchanted two-handed swords are pathetically weak compared to an anthropomorphic pheasant's tail that kills 100% earlier than theirs sweet-spotted or about 40% with the disjoint. Fantastic logic... They should have given Falco a sick sweep kick to justify that ridiculous power... Nope, diamond tail swipe. Anyway, Samus's Dtilt functions as a launcher for setups which is fine... Except that Ike gets to act 11 frames earlier and Falco gets to act 13 frames earlier. They could reduce the end lag... Just saying.

Animation, animation, animation... Look, if one of Samus's throws was something like her F-throw has her fire a slightly charged shot pointblank and it didn't kill, I'd be ****** too, but it's this weird shocky, whippy, throwy things... At least make it so rage affects her U-throw like Marth, Lucina, and Roy's.

Yay... The ol' I'm super tall, so let's give me a move that hits above me. Good anti-air, but horrible ground move and guess who else suffers? DK, except his Up Smash is more consistent when connecting. They might want to make it so all the loop hits auto-link instead of the first and fourth hits... Same with Uair and Fair's looping hits.

Charge Shot isn't transcendent and neither is Aura Sphere. Pretty sure Shadow Ball is. So...? Being able to negate projectiles with projectiles can be considered a good thing. I don't think they have this mechanic in place, but they could do something where charged projectiles like this "eat" weaker projectiles instead of having to rely on transcendent or not. So, if Ryu fires a Hadouken, it'll negate other projectiles and this would be the same for Samus, Lucario, and Mewtwo firing their uncharged projectiles, but if they use their fully-charged ones, it would "eat" the weaker projectiles and continue on. Against other charged projectiles, they should just negate each other and against transcendent projectiles, it'll be the same. So, Falco fires his Blaster and Samus fires her Charge Shot uncharged or charged, his will pass through and hit and so will Samus's.

As for Missiles, again... Recoil damage? So, if Samus gets hit while launching it, it could just explode in her face and damage both her and her opponent. There you go, now both parties are going to get hurt. Can't help with shorter folk running under projectiles since unless you're an idiot firing like a gangster, you're short, or you're crouching while shooting, there's not much you can change.

Also, Nayru's Love has invincibility frames from frames 5-12, so there that...

Speaking of Ness, is the the only character with a dsmash that hits back-to-front?

I think so... You could argue Bowser, Peach, Pikachu, ROB, and Sheik because they can hit from the back and lead into the front or full Down Smash, but that's up to you.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think so... You could argue Bowser, Peach, Pikachu, ROB, and Sheik because they can hit from the back and lead into the front or full Down Smash, but that's up to you.

They hit both sides simultaneously, so ehh...? Ness (and Luma) are the only ones I can think of that don't hit both sides at once, but hit the back first.

 

[BSP]

i personally like to live in a world where pacman's grab doesn't exist that way i don't keep myself up at night debating to myself which is the worse grab of the two (i have done this before)

I know Villager's is bad , but at least you don't have dead zones within a beam and a sound effect that guarantees the opponent will know that you've just ****ed up.

Villager can also get an ax on command to murder shields, and his/her mid range pressure is more consistent.

 

[Djent]

in WF at Xanadu. Will the prophecy RE: come true?

EDIT: Nope, you could say we got...robbed of that MU.

 

[Antonykun]

I know Villager's is bad , but at least you don't have dead zones within a beam and a sound effect that guarantees the opponent will know that you've just ****ed up.

(oh god I'm going to stay up late tonight)
2 ACTIVE FRAMES
you have deadzones but at least you have more active frames and villager has enough endlag to pretty much always be punished for whiffing a grab

Villager can also get an ax on command to murder shields, and his/her mid range pressure is more consistent.

as far as the axe is concerned it will never break a good player's shield nor does it have enough shield stun/push to make it safe on block soooooo :/ I'll give the mid range pressure though, its what helps me forget about how terrible her grab is

 

[HFlash]

Also to note on Zero's video. The biggest reason why he might think that Pikachu is the 2nd best character in the game is because he almost lost a set to a Pikachu in Smashcon. Aside from Vinnie's Shiek, no one else has pushed Zero so far in a tournament, and I'm sure if ESAM wasn't there to represent Pikachu, he may actually not even be seen as a top tier.

 

[Gunla]

Apologies if this is intruding or spam at all, Shaya.

My point is that some things should be implied or understood.
And when people make the mistake of misconstruing things, we remind them what the author's intentions and who they're accounting for. Yes, it's redundant for someone who makes a lot of content to need to remind people it's his opinion every single feasible instance. He has authority but not on really anything or anyone that matters (that isn't just the standard opinion of others). You know it's just his opinion and he's just making content for a living and for the non-competitively active demographic. If it was remotely possible ZeRo was a prime factor to any tangible thing, I'd be worried (if you think he does I'd be glad to read the argument).

Agreed. ZeRo's content isn't really aimed at top level play, moreso a general audience, and he's going to put his interpretation of how things are because it's his channel, his network, his audience. People just listen because they will, and it just so happens that sometimes people make mistakes with things. And we find that we get more and more players out of it. Yes, sometimes issues may arise and he gets blamed, it's not a hivemind that screws the entire world over, nor should he be blamed for everything like a leader in power. I play Miis and have one of my mains banned at half of the events I enter and decide often to not go, but I don't use it as an excuse to scapegoat a guy. I'm not gonna call him the guy who is the downfall of it because there's many factors to why Miis are essentially getting left out in the rain in many places, and a single person alone is not to blame.

A lot of people agree with him, and he's write in many cases; however, it's not overwhelming. He may think Miis shouldn't be legal, but I can assure you that it's not something that causes the entire risk of the Mii playerbase to turn on itself. Yes, it's a struggle at times, but we're making strides and going places.

People talking is a lot better than not talking at all, and his style and choices thus far have been extremely successful. Why alter things for what's likely 1% (I could see it being up to 10%) of the people who watch his videos? Those wishing things were more complex or holistic in analysing and have it push discourse to be more "correctly" aligned in low to mid level instances... aren't wrong, but why not just do just that? Make it just as high quality and engaging... COMPETE if you really worry about the non-active scene.

Most of the people who actively attend tournaments in my region don't talk about ZeRo's stuff. Maybe it's worse in other places. Maybe I'm lucky ZeRo isn't ruining my ability to tell people the truth who want to hear the truth like perhaps elsewhere.

This is the even bigger thing. There's many who claim that ZeRo influences the entire competitive playerbase, but it's not the case because he's broadcasting to a general audience. He likely does this because it will get people more interested in the game, more interested in watching it for information, and possibly get people to actually go out to events and play. If he went and did these massive videos about Sheik's frame data, do you think as many people would be interested? We might, but maybe not someone who is less attuned to gaming and competitive play. If there's anything to take away from this, however, it's that anyone's content can introduce someone to Smash, and with a reach like his (and while not everyone who watches his content may have an interest), I can definitely say people get interested and talk, be it theorycraft or in the game itself. And while they may not have the greatest of mindsets all the time, some will adapt and become open minded, and that's a huge plus.

And even then, viewers for streams is huge too. He's got TSM for a sponsor, and that's a name that garners views, recognition and respect of the game's popularity.

 

[Megamang]

Funny, I had the same progression of feelings about Ness. He felt relatively the same, but the more I faced competent nesses the more I felt the character is insanely powerful. The scariest part is he only needs to keep up with you decently, he is an absolute BEAST at last stock last hit situations.

Actually, most situations. The Pits are praised for having a kill f-throw, but Ness's is deadlier at lower percents. Not directly for the kill, but when you get F-thrown right at the ledge you are in a terrible situation. You also are crunched for time because PKThunder does so much damage as you try and return, and if he snags you with the wrong hitbox you get PKT2'd, which he can mix up from firing to hit you midair to firing at the ground and killing your airdodge. And this is all a deadly repeating trap because if you land near him he can just grab you and start it over... or until the b-throw can kill you.

 

[Nu~]

I know Villager's is bad , but at least you don't have dead zones within a beam and a sound effect that guarantees the opponent will know that you've just ****ed up.

Villager can also get an ax on command to murder shields, and his/her mid range pressure is more consistent.

We can murder shields with z drop key -> hydrant drop...
But that requires getting a key in hand.

Which is why we need to catch it in the start of every match...

 

[Teshie U]

PacMan isn't really that bad off with his bad grab. He has options to cover his grab to make it safer. Hydrant bouncing, water pushing, item drops. Villager has a kill throw and a combo throw. The range is actually pretty useful in practical situations too. Its not an OoS options, but a spacing one.

Samus grab is just really unbalanced because the tools that should be able to cover her (bombs and homing missiles) dont function and her rewards are among the worst in the game. She needs kill setups from her throws so it can actually be worth the trouble. And improvement to her projectile games (why are these projectiles slow if they arent meant for setups?).

Samus Dash attack is pretty good. The blind spot is fine considering how fast it hits from far away. Frame 10 hitbox at that distance is actually impressive and its not terribly laggy. If they made the hitbox happen even earlier it would be an insanely good dash attack. Once again the problem lies elsewhere. Her tilts and jab do a terrible job at being useful close range so naturally Samus players wish their dash attack could be their savior again.

 

[Shaya]

Not exactly too informative of anything but:
Vinnie mentioned on FB that 9B believes Ryu is #2 in the game.

9B was one of the revolutionaries for Ice Climbers in Brawl and claimed top 2 for him before just about anyone else, and proved it.
He has been relatively unknown in Smash4, he apparently mained Shulk and is probably the only reason Japan doesn't think he's bottom/low tier (like we're coming to accept here). But he's been completely Ryu since his release and he is starting to scare the local inhabitants in Eastern Japan who generally agree with the possibility.

9B is being hyped up to break out at Umebura.

 

[Smog Frog]

i think its a bit crazy but i'd entertain the idea. did he elaborate on why?

 

[Teshie U]

I think it should be pretty clear that Ryu is AMAZING. I think he could be #1 tbh. I think most top players are waiting for his combo game to get figured out so they can copy it.

He does 30-40 every time he lands his safest moves, kill confirms off of frame 2 tilts/jab at 60-70. Recovery and weight are extremely resilient so you wont just kill him early off of a gimp.

His fair is 1 frame slower than sheik's does 3x damage.

 

[Shaya]

@Vinnie

It's mainly comboing a 2 frame move into a move that kills at 65%

Quite the broken concept

 

[Nu~]

in WF at Xanadu. Will the prophecy RE: come true?

EDIT: Nope, you could say we got...robbed of that MU.

And then Zage got outplayed...dang.
Wanted to see him take the tourney.

 

[Djent]

Not exactly too informative of anything but:
Vinnie mentioned on FB that 9B believes Ryu is #2 in the game.

9B was one of the revolutionaries for Ice Climbers in Brawl and claimed top 2 for him before just about anyone else, and proved it.
He has been relatively unknown in Smash4, he apparently mained Shulk and is probably the only reason Japan doesn't think he's bottom/low tier (like we're coming to accept here). But he's been completely Ryu since his release and he is starting to scare the local inhabitants in Eastern Japan who generally agree with the possibility.

9B is being hyped up to break out at Umebura.

He might be correct about Ryu's potential, but I wouldn't expect top placings from him yet. I cannot forecast a good placing for someone who just finished 17th losing to some Mega-Man regardless of known ability in other games. For now, I think Trela is Ryu's most competitive representative, and 9B is still 9Booty.

 

[Browny]

That video is great for further shoving the opinion that 'japanese metagame is more defensive and campy' into the dirt. That megaman is terrifying.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I've never seen anyone play Mega Man this smoothly

Opening my eyes on this character rn

 

[Teshie U]

Megaman cannot handle Ryu up close, he did what the character was designed to do. 9B obviously flubbed alot of stuff to lose that set though.

 

[Nobie]

I'd argue that Mega Man is actually one of Ryu's tougher matchups.

1) Zoning-oriented character who is good at keeping opponents at bay in Neutral
2) Specializes in rapid-fire, multi-hit attacks, thus reducing the effectiveness of Focus Attack
3) Extremely hard to kill off the top of the screen, making Shoryuken relatively less good (and is fairly heavy in general)
4) Is good at taking advantage of characters with low aerial maneuverability such as Ryu
5) A missed Shoryuken means a SHORYUKEN BACK (though this applies in both directions)

 

[Routa]

Gunner above Ike. Mmmm.... Why?

 

[SPoitter]

Gunner above Ike. Mmmm.... Why?

I honestly think Gunner is a really solid character if you have the proper set. Plus Ike isn't utilized very well in my eyes, but I guess he could be better

 

[Shaya]

Whoa... who told you to just rock up and post a tier list here?
We require (strangers most definitely) posters to justify the spots/positions they feel they contrast from the average with; in the original post. Otherwise bad things happen.