Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Trifroze]

I think my arguments were misunderstood by some. It's fine for Zero to appeal to a casual audience but appealing to a casual audience doesn't justify misinformation or contradicting opinions, and it shouldn't be shrugged off simply because it's how he makes money. It may seem harmless like I said, but this sort of mentality in general paves the way for worse things to slip through and get accepted when they otherwise wouldn't be. I have a thing against people who tell others just want they want to hear whether it's true or not and which can be interpreted in a million ways. Shaya criticized the fact that Zero is being "hated" here, but to me it seems like a natural counter-reaction to balance things out. Very few if any people are in a position to do what he does so all they can do is speak out in places like this, and to be fair when the numbers are big enough it's sufficient.

Also I think what's going to hold Ryu back is the fact that he needs to be really close to the opponent to exploit what makes him so threatening. The gameplan against him will be abusing safe long range moves, projectiles and disjoints like versus Luigi, DK or Ganondorf. Ryu's neutral really doesn't seem good enough to do much about that, although he's definitely going to have his strong matchups against characters who need to get up close.

 

[Teshie U]

Megaman dies to SRK under 100 like everyone else, being heavyish means he will take an extra hit or two in soft hitting combos anyway.

Missed SRK only gets punished hard on FD/Duck Hunt. If he has platforms to land on, you will be hard pressed to get a punish that makes him regret it.

 

[Nobie]

Megaman dies to SRK under 100 like everyone else, being heavyish means he will take an extra hit or two in soft hitting combos anyway.

Missed SRK only gets punished hard on FD/Duck Hunt. If he has platforms to land on, you will be hard pressed to get a punish that makes him regret it.

Fair point on the SRK, but that's still a few extra steps on an especially squirrelly character.

As for punishing a missed SRK on a platform-heavy stage, this is Mega Man "top 3 back air + crazy up air" we're talking about.

 

[HFlash]

Also I think what's going to hold Ryu back is the fact that he needs to be really close to the opponent to exploit what makes him so threatening. The gameplan against him will be abusing safe long range moves, projectiles and disjoints like versus Luigi, DK or Ganondorf. Ryu's neutral really doesn't seem good enough to do much about that, although he's definitely going to have his strong matchups against characters who need to get up close.

Dammit lol was about to say the exact same thing. There are a good amount of characters that have an ability to wall out with projectiles. I think Luigi has a similar problem (if your opponent is constantly throwing out items and in the air, Luigi can't throw, hence he can't get his crazy rewards from throwing). This issue was shown in tonight's Xanadu Stream. Boss got so frustrated from playing the Luigi Pacman MU, that he switched off to Wario in Winner's Semis. Ryu I can only imagine would similarly hate the Pacman MU (And hey, and ended up in Grand Finals, so these character's metagame is only growing stronger).

 

[Minordeth]

I was directed here, here are my thoughts
S – Absolute best characters for competitive play
A – Solid comp characters
B – Some tourney use, best to use with a S or A secondary
C – Niche characters
D – Absolutely unviable.

S -
Sheik, ZSS
A+ –
Pikachu, Rosalina, Ness, Mario, Sonic, Diddy Kong, Fox, Luigi
A –
Ryu, Villager, Captain Falcon, Wario, Yoshi, Mii Brawler //I put Ryu at A tier because of his godly kill confirms and how well Mr.R used him.
B –
R.O.B, Meta Knight, Pit, Dark Pit, Olimar, Pac-Man, Peach
B- -
Megaman, Lucario, Donkey Kong, Toon Link, Falco, Roy, Robin, Mii Gunner
C –
Lucas, Wii Fit Trainer, Greninja, Shulk, G&W, Kirby, Little Mac, Ike, Link, Duck Hunt, Bowser. Jr
C- -
Bowser, DDD, Marth, Lucina, Charizard, Mii Sword Fighter, Samus
D –
Dr. Mario, Jigglypuff, Palutena, Mewtwo, Zelda

Characters in the D tier are on all equal suckiness.

You should have explained your deviations, but I'll take a bullet and front some objections and questions (feel free to shoot me in the face Shaya. IN THE FACE.):

Palutena - I don't buy her as bottom tier. Not with two transcendent moves, one of which is an oppressive back air. Plus, she actually has workable strings and a strong Uair for kills. Her tilts may be situational, but there is no way I'd stick her with Zelda. Ryo and Ninjalink have bodied higher tier characters with her, and I can't just attribute those wins to a lack of knowledge of the MU. I actually think she has room to grow.

Marcina, Greninja, and Ike - I don't know what to say here. No justification, no sell. Especially when you put equivalent results Peach above all of them.

Sheik and ZSS - in the same tier? Explanations are in due order.

 

[Nobie]

I just had a strange thought.

How many people use a character who has a strong matchup against another character and actually think, "Man, I wish this matchup was more even?" Or do people take a kind of pleasure in a character having "winning matchups?"

I say this because sometimes it feels good to body poor Dedede as Mega Man but that really isn't right. Dedede really could use something that lets him force approaches better.

 

[SPoitter]

You should have explained your deviations, but I'll take a bullet and front some objections and questions (feel free to shoot me in the face Shaya. IN THE FACE.):

Palutena - I don't buy her as bottom tier. Not with two transcendent moves, one of which is an oppressive back air. Plus, she actually has workable strings and a strong Uair for kills. Her tilts may be situational, but there is no way I'd stick her with Zelda. Ryo and Ninjalink have bodied higher tier characters with her, and I can't just attribute those wins to a lack of knowledge of the MU. I actually think she has room to grow.

Marcina, Greninja, and Ike - I don't know what to say here. No justification, no sell. Especially when you put equivalent results Peach above all of them.

Sheik and ZSS - in the same tier? Explanations are in due order.

Well, I think Palutena is bottom because she doesn't have much to work with, she can grow, she just isn't very good right now. All she has this the old jab to grab setup, a bunch of strings and a decent uair, I don't particularly find anything noteworthy about her, but like always that can change
I put ZSS in the same tier as Sheik because of Nairo's recent results at Paragon with her, he just did very very well there.
I put Peach above Marth, Lucina, Greninja, and Ike because Peach just seems better, but I guess I was kind of too quick to judge with Greninja because I just genuinely think Greninja is a poor character. And I'm sorry for the random tier list, I was literally told this is the closest thing I could find for critique as this was my first try

 

[HFlash]

I just had a strange thought.

How many people use a character who has a strong matchup against another character and actually think, "Man, I wish this matchup was more even?" Or do people take a kind of pleasure in a character having "winning matchups?"

I say this because sometimes it feels good to body poor Dedede as Mega Man but that really isn't right. Dedede really could use something that lets him force approaches better.

Well maybe if his Gordos weren't so easily reflected, he'd actually have a zoning game. But noooooo he has to be that special snowflake who gets his one projectile reflected back by almost any attack.... including jabs.

I put ZSS in the same tier as Sheik because of Nairo's recent results at Paragon with her, he just did very very well there.

Using that logic, Shiek should be in a tier by herself solely from results.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Sheik should be in a solitary tier up there tho.

Also, Shaya, I was the one to tell this guy to post his Tier List here, I *did* tell him that he had to do some explaining tho, but I think I missed the part where said explanations had to be done within the same post.
Sorry about that.

 

[Sir Tundra]

I just had a strange thought.

How many people use a character who has a strong matchup against another character and actually think, "Man, I wish this matchup was more even?" Or do people take a kind of pleasure in a character having "winning matchups?"

I say this because sometimes it feels good to body poor Dedede as Mega Man but that really isn't right. Dedede really could use something that lets him force approaches better.

Why would anyone want to have strong matchup to be more even?

Sure having a more even matchup can decide between the two fighters on who's the stronger fighter as long as both fighters have experience in the matchup and know a lot about the character settling some harsh rivalry and what not.

But NO.. We want the easy way out. The easier the matchup the better we can move up on the bracket.

 

[TurboLink]

Why would anyone want to have strong matchup to be more even?

Sure having a more even matchup can decide between the two fighters on who's the stronger fighter as long as both fighters have experience in the matchup and know a lot about the character settling some harsh rivalry and what not.

But NO.. We want the easy way out. The easier the matchup the better we can move up on the bracket.

So you don't want a balanced game? Because that's what it sounds like.

Unless you're being sarcastic. I'm not sure.

 

[Ffamran]

I put Peach above Marth, Lucina, Greninja, and Ike because Peach just seems better, but I guess I was kind of too quick to judge with Greninja because I just genuinely think Greninja is a poor character.

Feels, seems, and "I just genuinely think" don't define a character nor are they reasonable explanations as to why a character is somewhere. If we went off of feels, then Captain Falcon would be top tier because he feels great to play as for many, Falco would be bottom because he doesn't feel like Melee or Brawl Falco for Melee, Brawl, and PM Falco players, and Zelda would be in her own, little, isolated pixel of a tier because people think she's bad as is "tradition" of Smash.

And I'm sorry for the random tier list, I was literally told this is the closest thing I could find for critique as this was my first try

No you were not. You were told and I quote: "Personal Tier Lists are not allowed in this board." That statement does not equate to: post a tier list somewhere else. Even if you did, you should have explained why for each character and if you can't then don't put them on the tier list. Even if you end up with 3 characters on your list and it's explained well, that's better than slapping a tier list with vague, uninformed, and irrational statements which although better than a tier list with no explanation, is still bad.

Anyway, Ness's B-throw mentioned a couple pages back... Doesn't seem to have changed between Brawl and Smash 4. In Smash 4, it does 11%, angle of 135, has a base of 15, and growth of 130.

Brawl was like this: http://smashboards.com/threads/ness-frame-data-everything-you-need-to-know.375599/. Assuming the /'s are for the splash damage hitbox, nothing seems different. Don't know about the hit angle, though...
Bthrow
Duration: 53
Released on: 27
Damage: 11/3
Base Knockback: 15/60
Knockback Growth: 130/100

I'm going to assume that Brawl's hit stun mechanics had an effect on this?

 

[HFlash]

Why would anyone want to have strong matchup to be more even?

Sure having a more even matchup can decide between the two fighters on who's the stronger fighter as long as both fighters have experience in the matchup and know a lot about the character settling some harsh rivalry and what not.

But NO.. We want the easy way out. The easier the matchup the better we can move up on the bracket.

And that sums up why most people tend to main w.e character is the best in w.e game. If Shiek gets the Diddy treatment, expect for more ZSS/Pikachu mains to spring out of nowhere.

 

[Nobie]

In other news, THIS actually annoys me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH9S--CfObA

Not the match itself, but calling Pac-Man vs. Duck Hunt the "worst match ever" because the characters aren't rushdown combo fiends?

Like, just the interaction between cans vs. hydrants alone is so fricking interesting and absorbing that it makes me sad just seeing anyone claim that a match like this can't be exciting.

 

[NegaNixx]

In other news, THIS actually annoys me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH9S--CfObA

Not the match itself, but calling Pac-Man vs. Duck Hunt the "worst match ever" because the characters aren't rushdown combo fiends?

Like, just the interaction between cans vs. hydrants alone is so fricking interesting and absorbing that it makes me sad just seeing anyone claim that a match like this can't be exciting.

I feel your pain. It reminds me of the backlash of the Abadango vs. Dabuz Match at Apex, where people hated it just because it wasn't combo heavy or fast paced. But just watching Abadango try to slowly break down that wall and watching Dabuz fortify it was so interesting to me. I could watch and study it all day if it was relavant now.

People like what people like though, the commentary was bad for it, barely (not even) an effort to try. Explanations have a place in commentary as well it's not just Hype Hype Hype. Just mentioning the little intricacies add a lot to a match.

 

[Teshie U]

Fair point on the SRK, but that's still a few extra steps on an especially squirrelly character.

As for punishing a missed SRK on a platform-heavy stage, this is Mega Man "top 3 back air + crazy up air" we're talking about.

Back Air on a grounded opponent (platforms count for this) is somewhat unreliable. People can slide out before the final hit and its too laggy to convert that into a jab lock or follow up. Uair is not a reliable killer, sometimes people go almost nowhere because a certain hitbox won't hit them, does 20+ damage sweetspotted though. Not saying SRK can't be punished hard in other situations, but most viable characters don't special in aerials that are scary in the middle of the stage.



People often don't understand and/or like zoning. Thats nothing new.

 

[NairWizard]

I just had a strange thought.

How many people use a character who has a strong matchup against another character and actually think, "Man, I wish this matchup was more even?" Or do people take a kind of pleasure in a character having "winning matchups?"

I say this because sometimes it feels good to body poor Dedede as Mega Man but that really isn't right. Dedede really could use something that lets him force approaches better.

I would feel this way only if my characters didn't have bad matchups of their own.

Like, I'm happy with Pikachu not bodying Ganondorf if it means that he doesn't get bodied by Luigi in return.

But having some advantages to offset disadvantages feels right/satisfying to me. If I'm going to have some uphill battles to fight, then I may as well balance it out with some matches where I'm not working as hard/on edge as much.

The ideal competitive setting is one in which ALL matchups are even, though.

 

[Charoite]

In other news, THIS actually annoys me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH9S--CfObA

Not the match itself, but calling Pac-Man vs. Duck Hunt the "worst match ever" because the characters aren't rushdown combo fiends?

Like, just the interaction between cans vs. hydrants alone is so fricking interesting and absorbing that it makes me sad just seeing anyone claim that a match like this can't be exciting.

Well smash players hate defensive gameplay, that includes camping,zoning, pokes, etc. Why you think the majority play aggressive characters like C. Falcon,fox, o ZZS.

 

[Locke 06]

Still don't understand why many Ryu players let their opponents shield grab his special cancelable normals for free. Just cancel it into TSRK if you read a shield drop and they die. Give them something to fear. F1-6 intangibility is there to punish buttons.

Show them you know the real meaning of the term "frame trap."

 

[Routa]

First everyone had pocket Diddy. Later everyone had pocket Sheik and a bit later everyone had pocket MK. And now? Pocket Ryu.

But yeah very few plays as defensive character. I personally prefer something from the middle. Main reason why I prefer Sm4sh over others is the lack of Sanic speed (which is why I dislike playing as Faptain or Sonic). But I think it depends from other game you play. What I have seen people who prefer Plathformers RPGs and Strategy Games over Shooters usually prefer taking thous Defensive and 50/50 characters over Über Faptain Knee ones.

 

[Sir Tundra]

So you don't want a balanced game? Because that's what it sounds like.

Unless you're being sarcastic. I'm not sure.

That's not what I'm entirely stating.

What I was stating is that in tournament play people would rather have matchups be more in their favor rather then have those matchups be even.

especially if they traveled far to a regional/national tournament.

To answer your question though I'm all for a more Balance game

Infact when I heard SFV was going to focus more on balance/character diversity I was jumping off of my seat from joy.

edit:

And that sums up why most people tend to main w.e character is the best in w.e game. If Shiek gets the Diddy treatment, expect for more ZSS/Pikachu mains to spring out of nowhere.

And when ZSS/Pikachu get the diddy treatment 6 months after sheik gets the diddy treatment. Expect Fox/rosaluma mains to take the meta by storm. Face it whenever a beast is slain theirs always another one that will grow in it's place. Whenever a top tier gets nerfed their will be another one people will be complaining about.

Circle of life man

(edit:wow I cannot type today)

 

[bc1910]

Call me naive but I actually think that cycle has a chance of ending when Sheik gets nerfed.

Sheik is the last character without a meaningful weakness in my view. I've always thought that having low weight is pretty pathetic for a "weakness", and if that's a character's only weakness they're probably amazing (64 Pika, Brawl MK, Brawlimar, kinda Melee Fox though he's easy to combo too). Sheik can do everything and do it well. If she were actually susceptible to being zoned or actually had problems killing, she would be a far more sensible character.

After Sheik, Pikachu has a bit of "no weakness" syndrome but at least he's got more sensible frame data overall, bad range and (without customs) poor aerial kill options.

ZSS has her slow grab. That's her only big weakness (awkward aerials for short hopping? Meh) but it's an important one. Fox can't kill shields and his recovery is also worse than most of the top tiers. Diddy actually does have some issues killing. Ness and especially Luigi have mobility issues. Rosalina has a huge frame, is pretty weak without Luma, doesn't kill from throws and her weight is low enough to actually matter as a weakness (though again if it was her only weakness I still wouldn't be satisfied).

So I guess I'm saying while the general community probably will find their new Sheik, if you look at the characters stripped down to nuts and bolts, there... really isn't another Sheik. Maybe Pika but probably not.

Let's not forget that during the Diddy era, a lot of players at all levels of play were saying that an optimally played Sheik could be the best character in the game. Who are people saying that about now? No-one, to my knowledge. Sheik was always waiting in the wings to take up Diddy's mantle. We don't have another character in the position she was in when Diddy was #1. Zero Suit? Usually noted as 2nd in the game, but I've seen no-one suggest she'd be better than Sheik when perfected.

I don't think the cycle will end, because as you said, it's the circle of life. But at least every character will have clear cut weaknesses to abuse.

 

[Shaya]

Re: Ryu

@AllyKnight

tbh ryu is op
Focus reduces dmg taken by a lot and if u only have one hit moves, u cant kill him

@Seagull Joe

So glad Sonic is Ryu's worst matchup
Due to being able to gimp Ryu with spring, having a constant multihit move that goes through FADC, and being fast af Sonic makes Ryu's life hell.

----

Spoiler

It's mainly comboing a 2 frame move into a move that kills at 65%

Quite the broken concept

Not exactly too informative of anything but:
Vinnie mentioned on FB that 9B believes Ryu is #2 in the game.

9B was one of the revolutionaries for Ice Climbers in Brawl and claimed top 2 for him before just about anyone else, and proved it.
He has been relatively unknown in Smash4, he apparently mained Shulk and is probably the only reason Japan doesn't think he's bottom/low tier (like we're coming to accept here). But he's been completely Ryu since his release and he is starting to scare the local inhabitants in Eastern Japan who generally agree with the possibility.

9B is being hyped up to break out at Umebura.

 

[HFlash]

Call me naive but I actually think that cycle has a chance of ending when Sheik gets nerfed.

Sheik is the last character without a meaningful weakness in my view. I've always thought that having low weight is pretty pathetic for a "weakness", and if that's a character's only weakness they're probably amazing (64 Pika, Brawl MK, Brawlimar, kinda Melee Fox though he's easy to combo too). Sheik can do everything and do it well. If she were actually susceptible to being zoned or actually had problems killing, she would be a far more sensible character.

After Sheik, Pikachu has a bit of "no weakness" syndrome but at least he's got more sensible frame data overall, bad range and (without customs) poor aerial kill options.

ZSS has her slow grab. That's her only big weakness (awkward aerials for short hopping? Meh) but it's an important one. Fox can't kill shields and his recovery is also worse than most of the top tiers. Diddy actually does have some issues killing. Ness and especially Luigi have mobility issues. Rosalina has a huge frame, is pretty weak without Luma, doesn't kill from throws and her weight is low enough to actually matter as a weakness (though again if it was her only weakness I still wouldn't be satisfied).

So I guess I'm saying while the general community probably will find their new Sheik, if you look at the characters stripped down to nuts and bolts, there... really isn't another Sheik. Maybe Pika but probably not.

Let's not forget that during the Diddy era, a lot of players at all levels of play were saying that an optimally played Sheik could be the best character in the game. Who are people saying that about now? No-one, to my knowledge. Sheik was always waiting in the wings to take up Diddy's mantle. We don't have another character in the position she was in when Diddy was #1. Zero Suit? Usually noted as 2nd in the game, but I've seen no-one suggest she'd be better than Sheik when perfected.

I don't think the cycle will end, because as you said, it's the circle of life. But at least every character will have clear cut weaknesses to abuse.

Nicely put however,

Pikachu's Weakness =

As long as isn't deleted from the game, Pikachu won't run rampant in Smash 4.

 

[Ffamran]

Freaking Focus Attack takes 31 frames at a minimum to hit with 75 total frames min or 115 fully charged and you can dash cancel starting from frame 26. Spamming that will get you killed and read like a picture book.

Not familiar with Street Fighter enough, but it's a thing for Ryu to crouch light kick into Shoryuken. Maybe they went a little overboard with Shoryuken's power, but it's just a Ryu thing. Wouldn't be surprised if people complained even if it killed at 100% instead of 65%.

 

[Vipermoon]

Freaking Focus Attack takes 31 frames at a minimum to hit with 75 total frames and you can dash cancel starting from frame 26. Spamming that will get you killed and read like a picture book.

Not familiar with Street Fighter enough, but it's a thing for Ryu to crouch light kick into Shoryuken. Maybe they went a little overboard with Shoryuken's power, but it's just a Ryu thing. Wouldn't be surprised if people complained even if it killed at 100% instead of 65%.

How does it end on 75 if I always see Ryus combo focus attack into Fair?

 

[Ffamran]

How does it end on 75 if I always see Ryus combo focus attack into Fair?

The crumple effect?

 

[ぱみゅ]

lol Sonic can't be Ryu's worst matchup if he can't approach him, and like no combo will work on him.

 

[Shaya]

lol Sonic can't be Ryu's worst matchup if he can't approach him, and like no combo will work on him.

What's stopping him from approaching?
Sonic does have issues with good priority, but in terms of being able to punish most things OoS with dash grab, uair or nair and being able to juggle him relentlessly seems like a good thing. I would think he wouldn't be worse at approaching him than Mario, Pikachu or Fox.

 

[Deleted member]

How does it end on 75 if I always see Ryus combo focus attack into Fair?

The crumple effect?

You can dash cancel all 3 levels of Focus Attack after the hit. Its just the Ryu player landing Focus level 1 (which doesn't crumple and sends them up), dash canceling after the hit and landing a Fair.

 

[Trifroze]

Pikachu's weaknesses in my opinion are quite considerable, as he has to commit pretty hard for kills because of his lack of range and reliable setups. Combine this with his relatively low damage output per hit plus his light weight and in many scenarios after all the exchanges there's a decent chance Pikachu is the one dying first. That's really all that everything boils down to at the end.

Pikachu does have a good neutral and great edgeguarding capabilities to push the odds in his favor regardless, but I feel like you need creativity, good awareness and fast reactions to truly make up for Pikachu's problems and that takes a lot of effort (which many other characters also benefit from).

 

[ぱみゅ]

What's stopping him from approaching?

A huge, slow-moving fireball and humongous hitboxes (disjoints?) that Ryu would trade with any day.

On the other hand, his multihit moves really give him the upper hand when juggling and pressuring Ryu (particularly offstage), and Ryu is not the most capable character to catch him...

But yeah, I don't think Sonic is strong enough to be called a "worst matchup" for a character like Ryu.
And even if he is his worst matchup (I can't talk too much for Ryu here), it would not be by too much compared to other negative matchups.

 

[Browny]

Pretty sure you cant cancel a normal with the inputted version of shoryuken, not 100% though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

He might be correct about Ryu's potential, but I wouldn't expect top placings from him yet. I cannot forecast a good placing for someone who just finished 17th losing to some Mega-Man regardless of known ability in other games.

Abadango won Umebura after having placed no higher than 13th ... 4 times in a row.

You should know better, son.

I've never seen anyone play Mega Man this smoothly

I take it you haven't seen Daiki's Megaman then.

I would think he wouldn't be worse at approaching him than Mario, Pikachu or Fox.

"Fox", "approaching" and "Ryu" is an impermissible combination of words. Please fix this embarrasing mistake at once and never do it again. Thank you.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Nicely put however,

Pikachu's Weakness =

As long as isn't deleted from the game, Pikachu won't run rampant in Smash 4.

With this logic, the only character that can EVER win a tourney is Shiek. Like tbh if you only have one bad matchup you're basically better than everyone that isn't Shiek.

 

[Ghostbone]

Pretty sure you cant cancel a normal with the inputted version of shoryuken, not 100% though.

You definitely can.

 

[outfoxd]

In other news, THIS actually annoys me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH9S--CfObA

Not the match itself, but calling Pac-Man vs. Duck Hunt the "worst match ever" because the characters aren't rushdown combo fiends?

Like, just the interaction between cans vs. hydrants alone is so fricking interesting and absorbing that it makes me sad just seeing anyone claim that a match like this can't be exciting.

Like a lotta mma fans that hate it when the fight turns to grappling.

Its sad to think I want my own character to never get to top top tier because it would likely kill popularity for the game. I'm curious. Would people straight drop the game if Pac Man or DH or Villager or something were the upper echelon of characters?

 

[Smog Frog]

the stream monsters would probably stop watching...those characters all force interesting interactions with their tools. they'd probably be a better top tier than tbh.

 

[Greward]

I'd argue that Mega Man is actually one of Ryu's tougher matchups.

1) Zoning-oriented character who is good at keeping opponents at bay in Neutral
2) Specializes in rapid-fire, multi-hit attacks, thus reducing the effectiveness of Focus Attack
3) Extremely hard to kill off the top of the screen, making Shoryuken relatively less good (and is fairly heavy in general)
4) Is good at taking advantage of characters with low aerial maneuverability such as Ryu
5) A missed Shoryuken means a SHORYUKEN BACK (though this applies in both directions)

We will still die off the top below 100%, shoryuken is hella strong.
Overall I agree, Mega can shut down a lot ryu in neutral game and we can challenge him in juggle / edgeguard situations. Focus attack is destroyed with bair thus reducing his landing options a lot. Tatsumaki / down B recoveries also struggle against Mega's bair and while upB recover is hella hard to gimp Mega can do it with hard knuckle. Up close is hell but Mega has both the mobility and the tools to make it hard to happen.

I take it you haven't seen Daiki's Megaman then.

Nga is a better Mega Man than Daiki nowadays. Daiki only uses him in some matchups. Nga is the solo Mega Man with best results in Japan.

He might be correct about Ryu's potential, but I wouldn't expect top placings from him yet. I cannot forecast a good placing for someone who just finished 17th losing to some Mega-Man regardless of known ability in other games. For now, I think Trela is Ryu's most competitive representative, and 9B is still 9Booty.

"some Mega Man" is still probably the best Mega Man out there. Anyways, Mega Man does pretty good against Ryu so it's not an upset to lose that matchup.

 

[bc1910]

the stream monsters would probably stop watching...those characters all force interesting interactions with their tools. they'd probably be a better top tier than tbh.

Sheik is an oppressive "combo spammer" who also forces approaches, shutting over half the cast down.

If Pac-Man, DH and Villy were top tier (and assuming they kept their current combat personas) they'd be zoners with surprising potency up close, who shut down some of the cast by keeping them out and shut down others by outperforming them if they ever do get in.

I think you can argue that either archetype is boring to watch. But I yeah I agree that the interaction of tools would be more interesting to watch than Sheik fairplane-ing yet another character off the stage. Though I'm probably just saying that because I'm bored of her. I can personally enjoy watching all types of characters except pure runaway. There's actually no-one like that in this game; obscure reference alert, but even campy Sonic isn't that bad compared to Playstation All-Stars Sackboy.
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Re. Pika, I should also mention that he doesn't necessarily NEED a big weakness to be balanced considering he has plenty of smaller ones, and his strengths aren't that oppressive.

Using Greninja as an example, as of the 1.10 patch which fixed his Shurikens and gave him kill setups from Dthrow, he doesn't have a big weakness that can be abused by most of the cast. His OoS game is his biggest weakness but only two characters (Sheik and Fox) can abuse it to the point where the MU falls apart, because Greninja can either run away from everyone else or punish them OoS with the limited options he does have. So there's not much to really abuse vs Greninja, but his strengths are not as polarising as those of the top tiers either, leading to a lot of balanced MUs.

Pikachu is still top tier but I don't think his strengths are quite as polarising as other top tiers.