Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Principe Momopato]

but luigi struggles against rosa and zss, If sheiks is nerfed
first
Zss will rise and be the 3rd in the tier
Luigi will have a better match up but he will not be in the top 5
Pikachu will be the 1rst character (i think he will be the first
Rosa obviously will be the 2nd
but pikachu can be the 2nd and rosa be the first
Zss can't be the first because she struggles against Pikachu and have a even mu against rosa

and
What do you think about olimar? yvy

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

U hate the angle too? Man I thought I was the only one. The Dr. Mario baords acted like it was one of the greatest things he got. I wish he had melee power/damage on everything bar his usmash and up b. It would make him decent.

Which people were these? Most of us didn't like the change, but some of us saw it as a better combo tool at lower percents, since it allowed Doc to chase his opponents more easily. Now it kills AND functions as a combo tool. It's amazing.

A bit late but in defense of the character, he genuinely does regularly outdamage Mario and his jabs are much better for mixups/followups (they don't have to be spaced perfectly to have a regular knockback angle, etc.). I don't know if damage is his weakest point outside of like, Uair and Nair, probably.

Honestly, the one move which i think sucks when compared to Mario's moves (outside of fair) is uair. It's so underwhelming, even at higher percents.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

Well abadango has given up on Wario and is now putting metaknight as his real secondary.

Source? I ask because we always have people pop up every once in a while and claim that a famous player of a certain character has dropped or given up on that character for another without evidence, like when Hero Magic said Bo X7 dropped Mario for R.O.B. (most of his tournament wins are with Mario, it turned out, and he uses Mario and Peach much more than he uses R.O.B.).

Did he tweet this? Was it a Facebook post?

 

[warionumbah2]

Did he tweet this?

Ye

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

Ye

What were his words? I remember a Pac-Man player saying Chef Pac (Koolaid) was dropping Pac-Man for Pit and Zero Suit or something but the actual words of Koolaid's tweet were something along the lines "I really like the way Pit and ZSS play" or something and he still mains Pac-Man.

 

[DunnoBro]

Pikachu can't be first if over half a decade of experience with the character can't deal with a pocket luigi.

ZSS has more bad matchups but none that bad. Weaknesses are more important than strengths in this game, and after sheik ZSS seems like she has the least. (MU-wise)

 

[Spinosaurus]

Abadango has Meta Knight listed as his main over Wario now on his Twitter. He's been gushing about him today. (said he's top 10 too)

Can't find the tweet where he says he outright dropped Wario but yeah he probably dropped him.

 

[Nu~]

What were his words? I remember a Pac-Man player saying Chef Pac (Koolaid) was dropping Pac-Man for Pit and Zero Suit or something but the actual words of Koolaid's tweet were something along the lines "I really like the way Pit and ZSS play" or something and he still mains Pac-Man.

He actually did recently drop pac for Mario

 

[bc1910]

Also I can't imagine a metagame where Sheik isn't the best. She kind of rounds out the top tier, even if they made her more "fair" (I think outside of giant goring she'd be the best still), IDK how to put it, but I feel like it'd mess with things. THE ORDER OF BALANCE and whatnot.

I don't think it really would mess with things.

I cannot think of a single top tier who loses only to Sheik. ZSS hates Pikachu, Pikachu and Diddy both have problems with Luigi, Luigi loses to a LOT of characters, Ness loses to Rosalina, Rosalina loses to Diddy, etc etc. Without Sheik, the other top tiers keep each other in check pretty well.

Now, going further down the tier list, Sheik becomes more of a problem. For a lot of characters she is their only unwinnable or near-unwinnable MU, and acts as a gatekeeper of sorts. It's been said by Dabuz before - so many characters would be viable if it wasn't for Sheik. Greninja for example has a winnable MU with every other top tier, he still loses to Fox and maybe Sonic but I think he goes even with most of the top tiers and maybe beats both Mario bros (I am certain he at least beats Luigi). Sheik, though, can and will end his run through bracket very prematurely. Olimar is another example of a character who would fare significantly better without Sheik but is still soft countered by other characters, keeping him balanced.

Sheik to me is a gatekeeper top tier who harms the overall variety of viable characters at top level play, rather than a healthy top tier who keeps other characters in check. There is a rock-paper-scissors MU pattern between the other top tiers that Sheik exists outside of.

 

[Wintermelon43]

He actually did recently drop pac for Mario

Where did he say this?

 

[Nu~]

Where did he say this?

Twitter,
changed his name back to Koolaid and everything.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Twitter,
changed his name back to Koolaid and everything.

Oh I thought you were talking about Abadango and I was confused,

 

[DunnoBro]

Now, going further down the tier list, Sheik becomes more of a problem. For a lot of characters she is their only unwinnable or near-unwinnable MU, and acts as a gatekeeper of sorts.

Who? Pretty much every character I think up I can think up another just about as bad or worse.

She's the worst MU of a lot of chars but not undoable like sonic, rosa, and luigi are to others.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

ZSS has more bad matchups but none that bad. Weaknesses are more important than strengths in this game, and after sheik ZSS seems like she has the least. (MU-wise)

What bad matchups does ZSS have? It's well understood that she loses to Sheik and Pikachu but that really seems to be all there is.

 

[DunnoBro]

What bad matchups does ZSS have? It's well understood that she loses to Sheik and Pikachu but that really seems to be all there is.

Diddy, Mario, and Ness are/were often flipflopped on who had the slight edge. That's the worst it gets after sheik/pika though.

 

[bc1910]

Who? Pretty much every character I think up I can think up another just about as bad or worse.

She's the worst MU of a lot of chars but not undoable like sonic, rosa, and luigi are to others.

Greninja and Olimar as I mentioned, maybe Mega Man.

Whereas pretty much every character I can think of who gets destroyed (as in beaten hard enough to keep them unviable) by Sonic, Rosa or Luigi has another MU just as bad.

 

[Zelder]

I'll have you know that she loses to Kirby once he starts crouching. It's like, 80:20 while Kirby is crouching.

 

[Nu~]

Greninja and Olimar as I mentioned, maybe Mega Man.

Whereas pretty much every character I can think of who gets destroyed (as in beaten hard enough to keep them unviable) by Sonic, Rosa or Luigi has another MU just as bad.

Pac-Man is close to even. Trampolines and exacerbate her weaker neutral, and we don't get creamed as hard in disadvantage due to hydrant dropping.

Fair -> key is also a guaranteed kill confirm on her

Edit: some results
http://youtu.be/ZIPyv7g-uWk
http://youtu.be/uE7QtHOwOt8

 

[DunnoBro]

Greninja and Olimar as I mentioned, maybe Mega Man.

Whereas pretty much every character I can think of who gets destroyed (as in beaten hard enough to keep them unviable) by Sonic, Rosa or Luigi has another MU just as bad.

I guess I could be biased because sonic/fox are worse MUs than sheik for DHD, but my point is sheik is rarely the sole gatekeeper of a character's viability.

Dabuz lists several MUs as -2 for olimar and Greninja doesn't really have any meta to gauge at this time. If it was JUST sheik, a character barely seen at the local/regional level until the later rounds, we'd still see more of those characters. Sheik really doesn't have as large an effect on overall viability as people think. If sheik wasn't here, there'd still be a bad MU high tier that you'd likely be facing.

 

[Nobie]

Did you know that tournament players complain about Luigi the same way that For Glory players complain about Little Mac? It's true.

 

[bc1910]

Pac-Man is close to even. Trampolines and exacerbate her weaker neutral, and we don't get creamed as hard in disadvantage due to hydrant dropping.

Fair -> key is also a guaranteed kill confirm on her

Edit: some results
http://youtu.be/ZIPyv7g-uWk
http://youtu.be/uE7QtHOwOt8

I... didn't mention Pac-Man?

He's not really relevant to my argument since I know his MU with her is okay.

 

[Zelder]

Did you know that tournament players complain about Luigi the same way that For Glory players complain about Little Mac? It's true.

Did you pop this post out of a time capsule, because I haven't seen anyone complain about FG Little Macs in easily 8 months.

 

[Nu~]

I... didn't mention Pac-Man?

He's not really relevant to my argument since I know his MU with her is okay.

Whoops. There goes my overzealous nature again

 

[Antonykun]

Pac-Man is close to even. Trampolines and exacerbate her weaker neutral, and we don't get creamed as hard in disadvantage due to hydrant dropping.

Fair -> key is also a guaranteed kill confirm on her

Edit: some results
http://youtu.be/ZIPyv7g-uWk
http://youtu.be/uE7QtHOwOt8

Zss
poor neutral
I know you're a Pac-man main but geezs thats so high standards for good neutral.

 

[SPoitter]

What bad matchups does ZSS have? It's well understood that she loses to Sheik and Pikachu but that really seems to be all there is.

G&W can play against ZSS at least fairly well. He can crouch under a majority of her attacks, and can turtle with Dtilt and Sausage, the biggest problem with the MU is that ZSS can kill G&W early but G&W has to go for a read or just Dtilt her at like 160%, both characters rack up damage on each other at the same pace, I think this MU is balanced but I don't have much to go off of other than the ducking thing and a bunch of matches I played against a friend.

 

[Nu~]

Zss
poor neutral
I know you're a Pac-man main but geezs thats so high standards for good neutral.

I mean...her neutral game is similar to meta knight in which she has 4 main buttons in neutral (nair, Zair, down smash, and bair spacing) and they both want a grab to start the party.

Her mid range game is solid though. I may be confusing "poor" with "predictable".

 

[Seagull Joe]

Re: Ryu

@AllyKnight


@ Seagull Joe


----

I was tagged. Yea, can harass pretty well. isn't exactly easy to catch for someone as slow as and his projectile is pretty much laughable. If his up b/side b at least beat out spring I'd think it was maybe harder, but he loses offstage to spring when using either recovery because only the startup is invincible (Not the actual rise of shoryuken).

Down b is 3 hits. FADC loses to multihits. Sometimes will spindash through or he can just choose to go above him when the SD/SC touch. Obviously trading hits isn't the smartest idea, but has all of the tools (Including being the fastest character) to be a hard matchup. Maybe has matchups that are just as bad, if not worse. I really think wins this one solidly tho.


I don't think wins many matches lol. He goes even with so many of the cast. It's really annoying. I have changed my opinion on vs tho. I think that matchup is even now. Me and other 's have been in the lab and realized what we were doing wrong to begin with (Not DI'ing moves correctly, wasting our double jump so we get freely followed up, constantly up b'ing and then having no way to land, etc...). I realized I wasted my double jump all the time as recent as supersmashcon. I started delving into the topic of BSBS and realized automatically loses his double jump if side b doesn't full land from the hump or starts an aerial SD/SC. This unfortunate mechanics wasn't in brawl. Saving one's double jump as gives SO many movement/landing options because then you can airdodge, up b, homing attack, aerial, drift, shield cancel, or start up another SD/SC.

I thank Komorikiri for showing me the light!

No offense to seagull but seems really knee-jerky on his mu opinions for sonic and changes them a lot

He said custom dk was really bad for sonic but i beat average joe with my barely practiced one lol Pre-patch dk was free customs on or off

Also imo characters like duck hunt, pacman, and villager are more fun to watch when they're not playing each other lol

Fun to play tho

Custom bodied . You never beat him in tourney with . I change my opinion as the meta for characters changes as well as results come in (And me learning more).

 

[Antonykun]

I mean...her neutral game is similar to meta knight in which she has 4 main buttons in neutral (nair, Zair, down smash, and bair spacing) and they both want a grab to start the party.

Her mid range game is solid though. I may be confusing "poor" with "predictable".

Unlike Meta Knight, ZSS has a short hop game making her neutral far better and more complex than him

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

And what about Megaman's neutral?

 

[meleebrawler]

By the way, Mewtwo's worst matchup isn't Sheik or Fox or Captain Falcon, it's Pikachu.

Yes, Sheik, Fox, and Falcon all have the tools to annihilate Mewtwo, but at least they're roughly human-sized. Sheik has the Fair of doom, and is able to worry less about lacking kill moves because of how light Mewtwo is, but at least you can actually hit her. Pikachu's profile is often so low that not even Mega Man can grab him, and this is doubly painful for someone whose grab is as high up as Mewtwo's. While some people claim that Kirby is a really bad matchup for Mewtwo, Kirby at least suffers from having a bad approach game that Mewtwo can exploit through high mobility specs and disjoints, but that is certainly not a problem for Pikachu.

Some key things to note in Mewtwo's favour for this matchup though...

Pikachu's gimp game is largely negated by how flexible Mewtwo's recovery is, and the fact that he can teleport the instant Pikachu tries to go offstage to get him.

Pikachu may be near impossible to grab with anything other than Confusion after an aerial, but they definitely aren't as lagless as Sheik's or even Kirby's on landing, so punishing with the lovely dtilt is usually quite feasible.

Reckless or predictable use of Quick Attack can be swiftly punished by usmash. At worst they'll trade but prevent Pika from setting up.

And then of course he has a range advantage on top of being more effective at a distance.

 

[Seagull Joe]

And what about Megaman's neutral?

Literally pellets.

 

[TDK]

After more testing....

It is so hard to approach a competent player with Ike, outside of QD -> Jab or RAR back air. pretty much anything else is Punishable if you wiff outside of maybe perfectly spaced fair.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Most underrated character is def . I would put him in my top 3-5. His frame data is absurd. He can be safe almost anytime he wants. Frame 3 Utilt. Frame 4 DA. A full jab that cannot be escaped. True combos. Part of his side b is invincible.

Fighting him feels almost unfair at times. I know he loses to likely and , but that's if those characters grab him. On any large or medium sized stage, I feel like can just run with a game.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Well I don't hate the angle anymore because of how the move is now. As of right now it actually IS one of the best things he has. It kills earlier than Mario's (even earlier if you're anti-airing someone and they're near the edge) and it has INSANE hitbox coverage, it will NOT miss in front of him AT ALL, as low as crouching G&W (which is incredible). Before 1.1.0 the new USmash angle felt stupid. Now it has a purpose, increased KBG and INSANELY GOOD coverage. Like, really good.

Also damage would just make him annoying to fight and people would camp him mad hard. All I want on Doc is Pills having old IASA back, DSmash killing at the front and not the back, and Fair not having a sourspot at the early hit. D-Throw -> Fair Sourspot is already a thing (the sweetspot is MU specific AAGHHH) but yeah. I think he's really close to being a perfectly fine character honestly, his recovery isn't great but it's not horrible either once you use it properly, and he's REALLY dominant at edgeguarding (especially low, Dair, Down-B, even Bair which has one additional sweetspot frame vs. Mario's and has the power you know it for, it is WAY better than his Melee Bair). His neutral is a bit worse than Mario's (not SUPER worse because he does have a Bair that hits all shields on a SH and it's pretty safe too) he just really sucks in disadvantage which would only really be fixed by retooling Nair or boosting mobility, I'd rather they just made his neutral more stellar.

There, my semi-rant on how Doc is pretty close to being an ok character, really he is! He gets a pretty bad rep in most casual circles but he's not really far from being a solid ok character. His flaws are super evident but funny enough, it's the few insanely good attributes he has that keep me from really calling him outright terrible, which include one of the best OoS options in the game, Doctor Tornado as a move (it's seriously amazing), and Mario's frame data.

I might've put my focus into Ryu as my main but I will always secondary Doc and he's gotten pretty significantly better from the patches overall I think. TL;DR he feels like slightly undertuned harder hitting Mario, he's very close to actually being decent.

Best Doc post I've seen in a while. I'm glad we see eye to eye on how godly his edgeguarding is. Too many people write it off as soon as they take one look at his recovery distance.

 

[Ghostbone]

Fox's grab reward is probably the only thing preventing him from being the best character in the game, it's so bad lol (compared to every other top tier of course).
I do like to see Larry go for lots of u-throw at high %s though, since fox's uair is ridiculously potent/scary, seems like better positioning than throwing them off-stage.

 

[Sir Tundra]

While a diddy treatment for sheik might help out luigi I still think it won't help him much since he'll still have ZSS and Rosalina to worry about.

As of who'll be the best it's honestly hard to say..

It would be either Pikachu or ZSS that's for sure.


Also about Ryu..

I never knew Ryu's meta would develop so fast

It felt like it yesterday when people thought ryu was underdeveloped and underused.

Hell when I posted my first tier list I put him around the mid tier because of how underdeveloped he was during the time

But then you have MR R using ryu as a secondary, 6WX and Trela, and 9B.

and now people are saying Ryu's amazing.

All those faults of ryu being to technical, hard to use, and underdeveloped is now being put behind us.

He was from mid to the Upper cast. Opinions sure change don't they.

I think Ryu is a possible top 15 IMO.

I mean being able to get kill confirms off a jab?

A F**KING JAB?!

That's crazy.

Most underrated character is def . I would put him in my top 3-5. His frame data is absurd. He can be safe almost anytime he wants. Frame 3 Utilt. Frame 4 DA. A full jab that cannot be escaped. True combos. Part of his side b is invincible.

Fighting him feels almost unfair at times. I know he loses to likely and , but that's if those characters grab him. On any large or medium sized stage, I feel like can just run with a game.

I'm pretty sure people in this thread have been saying that is a top 5 for awhile.

As of losing to and .

Well your right about fox to loosing to Luigi. (The MU is either -1 or -2)

But Fox goes even with Mario.

Mario maybe able to escape out of fox's combos with nair and can up tilt him to ludacrious % around 10-20% but fox has speed, alot of kill confirms, and a better neutral. Plus Mario doesn't have any kill confrims.. Well theirs down throw to fair but that's a 50/50 probably a 25/25/25/25 idk. While luigi.. Well *gulp* you already know.

Fox's grab reward is probably the only thing preventing him from being the best character in the game, it's so bad lol (compared to every other top tier of course).
I do like to see Larry go for lots of u-throw at high %s though, since fox's uair is ridiculously potent/scary, seems like better positioning than throwing them off-stage.

Who needs grab rewards when you have amazing frame data, great approaches, and Kill confirms of the gods

Also you think uair is scary? pssh

Fox's uair in sm4sh is child's play

(Jk it's actually pretty nut's)

Now melee fox's uair..

That's scary.

 

[Asdioh]

bruh

Conquest results are almost certainly not taken into account for balance patches because they are more of a popularity contest than anything else. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Conquest explains the point system. Hypothetically, in a Mario versus Sheik conquest, if there's 7 times as many Marios as Sheiks participating the Marios could afford to get 2-stocked in every single match and would still come out on top since entering any match with Mario is all it takes to contribute 1 point to the conquest regardless of the result.

Yes, but my point is more "what if this represents For Glory results as a whole?" It's entirely possible Sheik has an overall bad record on FG, which could influence balance decisions. Just a thought. As someone mentioned here earlier,I don't think I've ever played an actually good Sheik on FG.

Fox's grab reward is probably the only thing preventing him from being the best character in the game, it's so bad lol (compared to every other top tier of course).
I do like to see Larry go for lots of u-throw at high %s though, since fox's uair is ridiculously potent/scary, seems like better positioning than throwing them off-stage.

Yeah, Fox is really good, I agree with Seagull. His recovery is fine in this game, his frame data is dumb, and his speed with dash attack/grabs means you're never safe in shield or out. His fixed multijab is definitely very helpful as of this patch. And he can always Fthrow->Laser for free damage :D? Remember early on, when we always saw Dthrow->Fair->Upair combos? I guess people learned to DI that, huh?
Anyway, the incredible consistency of Dair->Upsmash KOs makes up for his weak throw game.


Oh and crouching against Sheik is only one helpful thing Kirby has, don't forget that he has comparable frame data, earlier KO potential (outside of Dthrow->Upair kills) and significantly more damage per hit, as well as combos that can easily do 50%+ because of how badly he abuses fastfallers. But everybody forgets that :/. I'd rather go through a bracket of entirely Sheiks, than have a Sonic/Yoshi/ZSS/Luigi etc roster.

 

[teddystalin]

I never knew Ryu's meta would develop so fast

It felt like it yesterday when people thought ryu was underdeveloped and underused.

Hell when I posted my first tier list I put him around the mid tier because of how underdeveloped he was during the time

But then you have MR R using ryu as a secondary, 6WX and Trela, and 9B.

and now people are saying Ryu's amazing.

All those faults of ryu being to technical, hard to use, and underdeveloped is now being put behind us.

He was from mid to the Upper cast. Opinions sure change don't they.

I think Ryu is a possible top 15 IMO.

I mean being able to get kill confirms off a jab?

A F**KING JAB?!

That's crazy.

What a beautiful poem.

but yeah Ryu is really good and super scary but I feel his mobility is going to keep him out of top ten

 

[NairWizard]

I mean being able to get kill confirms off a jab?

A F**KING JAB?!

That's crazy.

I never thought I'd hear this from a Fox main.

 

[Greward]

Most underrated character is def . I would put him in my top 3-5. His frame data is absurd. He can be safe almost anytime he wants. Frame 3 Utilt. Frame 4 DA. A full jab that cannot be escaped. True combos. Part of his side b is invincible.

Fighting him feels almost unfair at times. I know he loses to likely and , but that's if those characters grab him. On any large or medium sized stage, I feel like can just run with a game.

Nah, it's Villager. The character is amazing as it's being shown in Japan and I have seen him being considered a low-high tier. Fox is already perceived as a top10 at worst.

While a diddy treatment for sheik might help out luigi I still think it won't help him much since he'll still have ZSS and Rosalina to worry about.

Luigi would get a huge boost if sheik disappeared from the metagame.

While he still loses to Rosalina and ZSS (and some others, like Villager that somehow is going unnoticed), the Sheik matchup is completely awful for Luigi and is probably makes him unviable as a solo main at high level.

I'm not gonna say he would be #1 because he wouldn't, but he would become a way better character.