Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Charoite]

You people are exaggerating about the post-nerf sheik scenario yes luigi will be became stronger but, so will every other character, including other luigi bad matchups, and is not like all shiek mains will drop her, there not a presedent where one character is nerfed to the ground in this game(when i saying nerfed to the ground is 64 kirby to melee kirby scenario).

If luigi popularity increase then more peolpe will use a counterpick for him .

 

[Seagull Joe]

Nah, it's Villager. The character is amazing as it's being shown in Japan and I have seen him being considered a low-high tier. Fox is already perceived as a top10 at worst.

Luigi would get a huge boost if sheik disappeared from the metagame.

While he still loses to Rosalina and ZSS (and some others, like Villager that somehow is going unnoticed), the Sheik matchup is completely awful for Luigi and is probably makes him unviable as a solo main at high level.

I'm not gonna say he would be #1 because he wouldn't, but he would become a way better character.

I disagree. loses hard to rush down and reflect characters. I've never seen Ranai fight characters that can rush him down other then Komorikiri () who goes back and forth with the guy or reflector ones. I've seen him lose to 's and I think a too iirc.

I'm pretty sure people in this thread have been saying that is a top 5 for awhile.

As of losing to and .

Well your right about fox to loosing to Luigi. (The MU is either -1 or -2)

But Fox goes even with Mario.

Mario maybe able to escape out of fox's combos with nair and can up tilt him to ludacrious % around 10-20% but fox has speed, alot of kill confirms, and a better neutral. Plus Mario doesn't have any kill confrims.. Well theirs down throw to fair but that's a 50/50 probably a 25/25/25/25 idk. While luigi.. Well *gulp* you already know.



Who needs grab rewards when you have amazing frame data, great approaches, and Kill confirms of the gods

Also you think uair is scary? pssh

Fox's uair in sm4sh is child's play

(Jk it's actually pretty nut's)

Now melee fox's uair..

That's scary.

At least you can SDI 's Uair. You cannot trade or even attempt to SDI with 's Uair. I've gotten so used to fighting that I realize I need to just avoid Uair at ALL costs because it's dumb.

 

[Sir Tundra]

I never thought I'd hear this from a Fox main.

Well to be honest fox being able to kill off of a jab is crazy as well

But it's fox he had that **** since melee

 

[Pazx]

Rosalina vs Luigi isn't even that bad honestly. Rosa has better matchups against more relevant characters (she DESTROYS Diddy) and I'd argue that ZSS is significantly worse for Luigi than Rosa is. It's certainly not a good matchup for Mr L but it's doable, very far from being horrendous or Sheik-level. Sheik nerfs would boost this character a lot (although she would probably still win the matchup unless her entire gameplan changes).

Related: Luigi vs Fox isn't even that good for Luigi, but that's a post for another time. (Luigi still wins pls dont jump down my throat)

 

[Antonykun]

Most underrated character is def . I would put him in my top 3-5. His frame data is absurd. He can be safe almost anytime he wants. Frame 3 Utilt. Frame 4 DA. A full jab that cannot be escaped. True combos. Part of his side b is invincible.

Fighting him feels almost unfair at times. I know he loses to likely and , but that's if those characters grab him. On any large or medium sized stage, I feel like can just run with a game.

How in the heck can a character that has always been a potential top 3 be considered underrated

 

[Teshie U]

Don't Rosa and Luigi rely on Sheik to suppress all the random characters that could counter them?

 

[Greward]

I disagree. loses hard to rush down and reflect characters. I've never seen Ranai fight characters that can rush him down other then Komorikiri () who goes back and forth with the guy or reflector ones. I've seen him lose to 's and I think a too iirc.

Great frame data and huge long-staying hitboxes are great against rush down.
Villager loses to outcamp in the form of Olimar and Rosalina and maybe the neutral game powerhouses aka Sheik / Diddy / Fox / Pit.

I don't think he has lost against ROB, maybe once but he has winning sets against most including OCEAN.
He plays against rush down characters. Falcon is played a lot in Japan. Choco is there for ZSS. Luigi / Ness are good matchup for Villager. I think Pikachu is not very popular, but besides that he should have played a lot of matchups.
On reflectors, we have Fox and Mario as relevant. He is good against Mario, frame 3 nair is great, he can outbox him and is a gimp powerhouse.
Fox should be a losing matchup, but even then Villager can deal with almost everything that isn't a sheer hard camp.

 

[Sir Tundra]

At least you can SDI 's Uair. You cannot trade or even attempt to SDI with 's Uair. I've gotten so used to fighting that I realize I need to just avoid Uair at ALL costs because it's dumb.

While it's true that you can SDI out of uair. Not much people are even good at doing anyways. Hell even some of the best players slip up at times when it comes to SDI'ing out of uair. Then again when it comes to a highly technical demanding game like melee you'll tend to screw up alot. Plus melee fox's uair hits like a truck.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

It's fun to theorize what would happen if Sheik were to disappear from the metagame but I really don't think that's what will happen. If her needles were given some more startup and her bouncing fish had reduced knockback or something she would still beat Luigi, and she would still win most of the matchups she already wins.

I also don't think Sheik getting diddied would be even close to warranted, Diddy basically got cut in half. She is not that good and I do believe it's possible to carefully adjust her kit with minor nerfs to make it so she is zero suit or pikachu threat level, which seems to be what they're attempting with the gradual nerfs so far.

She's also pretty tough to play and relies on her entire kit to be successful which is exactly what you should want in a top tier.

 

[teddystalin]

I disagree. loses hard to rush down and reflect characters. I've never seen Ranai fight characters that can rush him down other then Komorikiri () who goes back and forth with the guy or reflector ones. I've seen him lose to 's and I think a too iirc.

...But ignorance isn't really an excuse.

Here's Ranai beating Nietono's Fox 2-0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y028yalMebs

Here he is taking out Edge's Sheik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K05gvCmFuaE
Also, you say Komorikiri goes back and forth with him, but the results don't support that at all. They may have close games, but (correct me if I'm wrong here) Komorikiri hasn't taken a set off of Ranai since...Sumabato 1, where he didn't even use Sonic. Ever since Komorikiri switched off of Mii Brawler, he's consistently lost.

It's also worth mentioning that Ranai's loss to Ikep (the you mention) came on the heels of Ranai decisively resetting the bracket. Your stance just doesn't make sense in light of all this.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

isn't the only one that shuts out characters (high/mid/low/bottom/ tier) from tournament there are others such as who SHUTS OUT many characters to a point of have fun getting bodied by Dabuz in bracket etc.. just do to her design, there also who can overwhelm a lot of characters as well not to mention she destroys heavies / big hurt boxes. Then we have , (thanks sakurai for a kill-confirm that can work to 60-90ish%) the grab-kill confirm characters who can make some characters have a living nightmare against them (although some characters can somewhat counteract this although the simple ability to end your stock with a grab will put pressure on you). And then their's who's I'm pretty positive in some point in the future straight up invalidates some characters if we consider time-outs a legitimate option in MU's. So yes even if Sheik was nerfed (which I doubt will happen) most characters sheik dominates also struggle against other top tiers too. In fact most if not all of mid-tier and below either straight up gets bodied by multiple top tier characters , loses to multiple top tiers characters, or can somehow can go even with one / a few (Rare) but then loses or gets bodied by another one which is one of the reasons top tiers cluster the Top 8's in nationals since they generally have no trouble dealing with other characters outside of top tier. They also have ways to get around the strong defensive option known as shielding or air-dodging add-in rolling too. flat out doesn't care if you shield or roll since she is one of the FEW characters to have actual block-strings the other being and she can kill off of a grab. also makes shielding against them risky and dangerous since they can convert grabs into kill confirms, while ZSS can flat-out end your stock at low percents if she gets her advantaged state going which is ridiculous need I remind you. is a living fortress with Luma that can interfere with defensive counter play against her; not to mention she has giant hit-boxes and disjoints with Luma. can just play mind games with you for days because of his excellent kill-throw (having a kill-throw that strong is a godsend in this game). They also just overall have better advantage states, easier time dealing with defensive options, better disadvantage states (or just gets a lot of mileage out of grabs / momentum) and have better neutrals (much better neutrals vs some characters) then most of the cast which leads with them having mostly positive - very winnable MU against everyone else. Also I don't really any top tiers really need nerfs at this point since one of the MAIN reasons characters are mid-tiers is because of lackluster options against shielding, air-dodging, rolling, having a overall worse-much worse neutral (depending on the MU), not so great advantage states / disadvantage states without anything major to compensate (ex. grab-kill confirms). Pretty much Top Tier = you have meaningful / consistent options around universal options (shielding, air-dodges, rolling, ledge-options + the amount of reward / momentum when successfully edge-guarding a opponent) + being a good character in general (frame data, follow-ups, momentum, mix-ups) vs Bottom High Tier - anyone else = Characters who either have a harder time against universal options, having less reward, having BAD frame data, having less consistent options, have a hard time landing the kill (I mean at least have reliable 50/50's and kill confirms) etc. So no I am not surprised when a mid-tier has a horrible MU with multiple top tiers or maybe just 1-2 top tiers, these top-tier characters are actually good-really good characters that have good consistent options against things which I feel every character should have if you want to be a reliable good character in this game. I really don't like the notion of let's nerf the top tiers cause they have reliable options or good rewards while other characters struggle with the game engine / I am a character that has mediocre-bad frame data / only being safe on few moves that can be obvious at times / or I lack reliable options. I have read a few pages back that apparently is a solid character. What do you mean by solid exactly? Remember in a fighting game being good / decent / bad is relative to the rest of the cast. IMO Marth isn't a solid character (not yet anyways) but he's a decent character floating around upper mid-tier. A solid character in this game is more akin to since he can somewhat handle nearly every character in this game bar maybe (my god does Dabuz make this character look like she's a huge gatekeeper that will straight up knock you out of a tourney). In my eyes a character can't be solid if he has shaky/iffy MU's against the better characters of this game. Imma just make a list on characters that will BOP you in the head if you are a fraud :]

• 
  
• 
  
• 
  
• 
  
• 
  
• 

I feel these characters are unrelenting, unforgiving characters in this game. Pretty much if they are on the top of their game and you are not; expect to lose or get bodied by one of them especially and .

End of long post.... also I don't consider top tier lol. He just has a top tier trait with a massive reward game.

 

[Illuminose]

I disagree. loses hard to rush down and reflect characters. I've never seen Ranai fight characters that can rush him down other then Komorikiri () who goes back and forth with the guy or reflector ones. I've seen him lose to 's and I think a too iirc

I think you forgot Choco, the second best Zero Suit in the world. Also Nietono who he has never lost to. Ranai's style of Villager is pretty zany and effective at dealing with overzealous styles. He's the type of guy to walk up slowly and drop a bowling ball in your face. That's obviously not the extent of Ranai's play, but I feel that Villager has pretty good tools for combatting aggression: ranged attacks, a fast nair out-of-shield, and disjointed anti-airs/anti-poke options in general are things that Villager has.

In general about Ranai: I think he's a lot more inconsistent than we tend to realize. He gets a lot of praise and wins a lot, but he never wins tournaments from winners and can kinda just lose to people for no reason. I think he's amazing, but he's on point or he isn't. He played pretty awful vs Aki at Sumabato 5. I can't remember Ranai ever losing to a Sheik before that (maybe Edge? I don't think he's ever lost to Rain), and I'll just say right now that Aki's Sheik is...above average at best. So with the hype for Ranai in the upcoming Umebura FAT and whatever tournament he's going to in the winter, it's worth noting imo that he could totally flop

 

[Nobie]

By the way, if anyone still wonders whether shorter time limits encourage camping, just take a look at the online tournament mode.

 

[BSP]

I disagree. loses hard to rush down and reflect characters. I've never seen Ranai fight characters that can rush him down other then Komorikiri () who goes back and forth with the guy or reflector ones. I've seen him lose to 's and I think a too iirc.


At least you can SDI 's Uair. You cannot trade or even attempt to SDI with 's Uair. I've gotten so used to fighting that I realize I need to just avoid Uair at ALL costs because it's dumb.

Does Falcon count as rush down? He's more of bait and punish / neutral mindgames, but here's Saiya vs. Ranai from the most recent sumabato: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6ax7eH9VOA

 

[Nexin]

By the way, if anyone still wonders whether shorter time limits encourage camping, just take a look at the online tournament mode.

That could also be due to the fact that instead of sudden death, tournament mode determines the winner in the event of a tie based on who did more damage the entire match instead of who has taken less damage on the current stock, which benefits characters that can slow a match down as much as possible and rack up damage steadily.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the 3 minute time limit encourages more defensive play, but implying that it is the only reason why tournament mode is like that is misleading.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

That could also be due to the fact that instead of sudden death, tournament mode determines the winner in the event of a tie based on who did more damage the entire match instead of who has taken less damage on the current stock, which benefits characters that can slow a match down as much as possible and rack up damage steadily.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the 3 minute time limit encourages more defensive play, but implying that it is the only reason why tournament mode is like that is misleading.

If I were to list everything wrong with Tournement mode from a competitive standpoint I would get banned from Smashboards for putting too many words into a post. The 3 minute time limit is the big one though.

 

[Green L]

Am I the only one who notices that the meta relies a little too much on grabs to the point where it's extremely repetitive? Every donkey kong player I've encountered since the recent patch rely heavily on cargo up throw and don't do much else. Every mario main I've fought usually spam down throw (I know luigi does that too). I don't see many original and unique followups that don't come from grabs. It's probably the reason why characters like Pac Man are ignored: He doesn't have down throw up air. It's interesting for me to watch a Pac Man player whose gameplan doesn't revolve around grabs. He uses followups from his projectiles such as the Key and the cake that stuns you. Even I like to mix things up by using luigi's other followups such as his uptilt, nair, and upair.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Does Falcon count as rush down? He's more of bait and punish / neutral mindgames, but here's Saiya vs. Ranai from the most recent sumabato: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6ax7eH9VOA

Well technically falcon is a Bait and punish/ Mixup character. He relies on getting in by either having a person mess up or catching them off guard by grabing them with his gigantic dash grab/bait a spot dodge and kill the opponent with a raptor boost.

Also..

I know falcons recovery is bad but damn Ranai was making a joke out of that recovery.

Saiya could barely even make it back on stage

edit:

By the way, if anyone still wonders whether shorter time limits encourage camping, just take a look at the online tournament mode.

Considering that their is no sudden death when it comes to tournament mode making who ever has the least amount of damage win.

Yes shorter time limit indeed encourage's camping

especially for characters who can camp out other character's hard depending on the matchup.

of course the same thing happens in tournaments in general but theirs alot more time in tourneys compared to tournament mode.

Am I the only one who notices that the meta relies a little too much on grabs to the point where it's extremely repetitive? Every donkey kong player I've encountered since the recent patch rely heavily on cargo up throw and don't do much else. Every mario main I've fought usually spam down throw (I know luigi does that too). I don't see many original and unique followups that don't come from grabs. It's probably the reason why characters like Pac Man are ignored: He doesn't have down throw up air. It's interesting for me to watch a Pac Man player whose gameplan doesn't revolve around grabs. He uses followups from his projectiles such as the Key and the cake that stuns you. Even I like to mix things up by using luigi's other followups such as his uptilt, nair, and upair.

Alright first off Fox doesn't have any guaranteed followups off of his grabs and you wanna what people think of him.

Potential top 5.

You wanna know why?

Cause of his amazing neutral, speed, ridiculous frame data, and kill confirms that guess what..

Don't involve grabs.

Infact fox isn't the only one look at wario.

He has that dumb bike and one of the fastest command grabs in the game. Not to mention the waft. Although he isn't top 10 but rather potential top 15.

Second grab followups maybe important in a game like smash 4 but they don't just automatically make amazing. If that was the case captain falcon would be considered top 5 right off the bat.

Third while Grabs are overused in Sm4sh their uses don't even compare to that of melee's

Yes despite the fact that melee is known for being a game that's all about "True combos" grabs were even more overused in that game compared to sm4sh due to chain grabs being a thing.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

But... Megaman beat weegee

 

[Djent]

Lol I guess this is going to be a post about Abadango.

Abadango won Umebura after having placed no higher than 13th ... 4 times in a row.

You should know better, son.

Eh, it's of course possible that 9B will break out @ FAT, but it's definitely not probable. Even after Abadango's incredible EVO performance, the correct prediction to make was that he'd continue to place worse than that at Umebura events. You really can't fault people for thinking results will remain consistent in spite of the fact that some players obviously have the potential to do better.

Well abadango has given up on Wario and is now putting metaknight as his real secondary.

This makes me sad. It's definitely a competitively sound decision (MK is top 10 free while Wario is 11-15 IMO). It's just that we already know what MK is capable of, whereas he was the only person who reliably showed how deadly Wario can be in the right hands. It's totally selfish of me to wish for character exhibition over top-tier choices, but I can't help it.

 

[cutthefuss]

I feel like luigi's placement on a tier list tends to depend on how the maker of the list ranks characters. if it's by solo main viability or something similar he's most likely not top 10, but he is still a big threat that you /have/ to prepare for in some way if you want to do make it anywhere (especially if you play one of the characters he beats) since he's a pretty easy pocket to have it seems like. So if your list is more of a 'threat rating' I could see him as top 5 (like in the op)

that also brings up the question of, how do you rank characters?

 

[Trifroze]

If one doesn't want to use Sheik, it's looking like the ultimate main/secondary combo in this game will be ZSS and Luigi. Minus Sheik, ZSS' bad or arguably bad matchups seem to be Pikachu, Diddy, Mario, Fox and Ness, and Luigi supposedly beats them all except for Ness which I haven't heard opinions of. How's that MU?

 

[L9999]

If one doesn't want to use Sheik, it's looking like the ultimate main/secondary combo in this game will be ZSS and Luigi. Minus Sheik, ZSS' bad or arguably bad matchups seem to be Pikachu, Diddy, Mario, Fox and Ness, and Luigi supposedly beats them all except for Ness which I haven't heard opinions of. How's that MU?

Most common opinion I hear is that it's even.

 

[|RK|]

I've been thinking... solo main viability means two things, right? One: your character doesn't have bad matchups, and two, if they do, these matchups aren't common.

Going off of the first metric alone would mean that only Sheik is solo viable. The second allows for most of the top/high tiertier to be solo viable.

I feel like I'm missing something, though. Because Pikachu has a bad matchup versus the relatively common Luigi - does that mean Pikachu isn't solo viable?

 

[Sir Tundra]

I've been thinking... solo main viability means two things, right? One: your character doesn't have bad matchups, and two, if they do, these matchups aren't common.

Going off of the first metric alone would mean that only Sheik is solo viable. The second allows for most of the top/high tiertier to be solo viable.

I feel like I'm missing something, though. Because Pikachu has a bad matchup versus the relatively common Luigi - does that mean Pikachu isn't solo viable?

Well technically luigi's common in regionals.

So in regionals Pikachu isn't solo viable

But since luigi is rare on nationals.

Pikachu is solo viable in nationals

 

[Trifroze]

One negative matchup doesn't ruin your solo viability, but a popular hard counter or an unwinnable matchup will. You can have several 4:6s and arguably even a 3:7 depending on who it's against and still be solo viable.

 

[Gunla]

I've been thinking... solo main viability means two things, right? One: your character doesn't have bad matchups, and two, if they do, these matchups aren't common.

Going off of the first metric alone would mean that only Sheik is solo viable. The second allows for most of the top/high tiertier to be solo viable.

I feel like I'm missing something, though. Because Pikachu has a bad matchup versus the relatively common Luigi - does that mean Pikachu isn't solo viable?

Though on that prospect, we get to the issue of whether that character's counters are common enough to make it where one bad MU against the character jeopardizes their solo viability.

At the highest echelon, the first criteria you established made it so Sheik would be at the top. However, this isn't certainly a 20XX situation where we ignore 54+ characters. The second criteria is much more of a debate, naturally; one could go on for days and months on what would be solo viable.

It also ends in a bit of a loop. With a character like Pikachu, who has issues with Luigi, we get to a point where we question his solo viability; however, on that point, we also need to consider that there's some wild cards out in the field - players who main characters who have those solid matchups against Luigi also take his own solo viability into question, and so on and so forth. There's a strange debate with Luigi at the moment - some think he's incredible for his rampage through the mid-level play, his struggle at the top level brings it into question. That's a very well known cause for debate with the character and one I don't feel the need to go into detail here with.

For my personal take, I think Pikachu is a perfectly fine character to solo main, with a solid set of abilities and a healthy spread of matchups. Luigi isn't on the level of Brawl MK or Melee Spacies where they are invalidating characters based on their matchups alone, let alone pushing solo viability out of the window. At that point, usually a character who is in question has more or enough bad MUs against high/top tiers to not justify solo maining them.

 

[Shaya]

I don't think Pika is a shoe in for top anything if others get nerfed.
I do personally struggle to see him much higher than top ten. There's absolutely no way for me to look at Pikachu minus ESAM results and have anything to go by to rate him. Nearly every other high tier has a large and strong following at multiple levels, while Pika barely gets results at the local level.

If I wanted to be completely anti-Pika extremus while still somewhat fair, I'd put him with the Pits. Obviously a solid character with good strengths, but close to nothing to write home about.
Pika's edge guarding/off stage game? Pretty alright to pretty good.
Pika's grab game? Pretty alright.
Pika's ground game? Pretty good.
Pika's air game? Very average to below average.

Japan, despite anecdotes with ESAM, still doubt themselves putting him in top 20.
Pika comparatively had a lot longer history in Brawl of good results at local, regional and sometime national level and was generally seen as top fifteen. ESAM came in very late to actually give Pika top level representation but the majority of the competitive community were vehement Pikachu wasn't top tier.
In contrast, Pikachu is doing significantly worse in Smash4 as a character, yet a large group of people are willing to put him as top five.
If Pika was top 5 or as good as people like to believe and you can link me a few sets where ESAM doesn't lose to random characters or sub-top level players (or better yet: even when he does lose to ZeRo still) that's great and all but not helpful. Please pick up Pikachu and do well just like every top five character is doing, in the process you may kill your naivety or provide people like me evidence to the contrary of my thoughts.

Pika Aerial Safety is... pathetic for a character we consider good in this game. His ground game while solid is nothing special either.
To me he is a legitimate walking mini-hurtbox gimmick. His future right now vies firmly on Quick Attack's depth and potential, nothing else about him are in people's minds when they think about good moves in Smash4.

                                                Full Action    Auto Cancel    Landing
Nair1                                                -31 to -32    -28 to -29    -22
Nair2                                                -16 to -30    -13 to -27    -23
Fair1                                                -18 to -32    -9 to -23    -16
Fair2                                                -22 to -22    -13 to -13    -22
Bair1                                                -28 to -53    -18 to -43    -29
Bair2                                                -47 to -53    -37 to -43    -33
Bair3                                                -27 to -28
Uair                                                -16 to -20    -8 to -12    -22
Dair1                                                -22 to -34    -14 to -26    -41
Dair2                                                -41 to -42

As a ZSS main I go OUT OF MY WAY to play against this character as often as possible. All I ever think is "how are they going to beat my shield, my range, my mobility and KO power difference?". If I'm avoiding getting chip damaged or poked by QA I'm barely ever in a poor situation to be threatened by Pika other than 0% combos that take me to around 50% (which is good, because that's when nair/uair have enough hitstun on low percent opponents to get follow ups).

Sheik definitely is a harder match up. Her tools actually beats ours rather than being gimmicks people don't know how to handle yet.

 

[Djent]

RE: , it all comes down to relative threat level in the end. If gets nerfed, /// should all arguably rise in prominence. Olimar might not actually be that bad a MU, but either way it sure looks like a net loss in solo viability to me. Yet for some reason, people erroneously think Pika comes out on top of the tier list if the ninja-queen is dethroned. Sheik central is Pikachu paradise, if only because she's the least severe of his "disadvantaged" MUs.

EDIT: Actually if rises that could negate Ness and be advantageous to Pika. However, ZSS/Oli running loose will probably give her just as much trouble as Sheik, so I kind of don't see it unless ZSS also gets nerfed.

 

[DanGR]

[Rosa] (she DESTROYS Diddy)

Where is this coming from?

 

[Shaya]

It's an awkward match up for Diddy now, that's for sure. Like, the reason people thought Rosalina hard countered Diddy during 3DS (it obviously isn't nor wasn't that bad) has come back to haunt.
He doesn't reliably kill her earlier than she kills him anymore. His action's average rewards are less so his trading (which isn't too uncommon for him) or losing while attempting fairs/bairs/dtilts is a lot worse for him now.
As Diddy is focusing towards his specials for game play since his nerfs, Rosalina/Luma completely annihilated this at every stage of the game thus far. It makes it a lot harder for him to garner momentum and also "scare" and restrict Rosalina, who now aturally sets the pace of the match up and can spend a lot of time punishing Diddy rather than trying to zone away from his devastating aerials and grabs.

 

[Illuminose]

I don't think Pika is a shoe in for top anything if others get nerfed.
I do personally struggle to see him much higher than top ten. There's absolutely no way for me to look at Pikachu minus ESAM results and have anything to go by to rate him. Nearly every other high tier has a large and strong following at multiple levels, while Pika barely gets results at the local level.

If I wanted to be completely anti-Pika extremus while still somewhat fair, I'd put him with the Pits. Obviously a solid character with good strengths, but close to nothing to write home about.
Pika's edge guarding/off stage game? Pretty alright to pretty good.
Pika's grab game? Pretty alright.
Pika's ground game? Pretty good.
Pika's air game? The average player has no idea how to punish it because during the 30 odd frames of lag Pika nearly always suffers they're flat to the ground and people whiff their grabs.

Pikachu has the best edgeguarding in the game. The character can edgeguarding ****ing Sheik -- that's not a thing characters do. Fast fall back air, thunder walls, quick nair that lingers, lingering fair...this character's gimping options are ubiquitous and incredibly effective. He has the tools to edgeguard just about every character in the game. And he has the best recovery in the game to boot, meaning he can go super deep and just not care.

Pikachu's grab game is really good. At low percents you have your throw -> uair -> falling fair -> regrab -> more follow-ups -- in general, Pikachu can get solid damage off throw combos and set up favorable positions to extend said combos. His fthrow and bthrow are really good for positioning, and uthrow(/dthrow) thunder are things that are potential for killing if you know how to read and cover DI (read: it's actually good).

Pikachu's ground game is good and can get him into advantageous positions really effectively. His up tilt, especially with perfect pivots, is godlike. He gets so much damage off up tilt combos. His jab is fast and ****ing transcendent. His foward tilt is a pretty solid, low-commitment get-off-me option. His aerial game is good as **** but that's not even the point. His aerials are mostly used to combo, not to approach. That said, sh autocancel dair is really safe and good. He has a frame 3 nair to combo break and use out-of-shield. Up air is an amazing juggle and combo tool. Foward air is a solid combo move and can be spaced fine on block, autocancelling on landing. That's one hell of a set of aerials. There's something you're missing if you think Pikachu doesn't have good aerials.

Pika in Brawl, despite ESAM only being a very late bloomer in terms of his overall history, lived in top 15 with PRETTY GOOD RESULTS across the globe at local/regional level with sporadic break out results. Pika is doing significantly worse in Smash4 as a character than he did in Brawl yet everyone and their mother puts him as a shoe in for top 5.
If you think Pika is top 5/so good, and you can link me any number of sets ESAM doesn't lose to random characters/sub top level players to bolster your point, that's great. How about you pick up Pika and do well just like every other top 5 character... Kill your naivety

Guess what: Pikachu is hard. It's hard to have full control over Quick Attack, properly harnessing the options for different approach angles, platform cancels, and recovery angles. It's hard to punish like ESAM punishes. It's hard to edgeguard if you don't know how to apply Pikachu's options. Pikachu is hard to play at a good level compared to other top tier characters. THAT is why there isn't a flood of good Pikachu mains.

As a ZSS main I go OUT OF MY WAY to play against this character as often as possible. All I ever think is "how are they going to beat my shield, my range, my mobility and KO power difference?". If I'm avoiding getting chip damaged or poked by QA I'm barely ever in a poor situation to be threatened by Pika other than 0% combos that take me to around 50% (which is good, because that's when nair/uair have enough hitstun on 0% opponents to get follow ups).

Sheik definitely is a harder match up. Her tools actually beats ours rather than being gimmicks people don't know how to handle yet.

Pikachu kinda bops your character. It's not pretty; we've seen what ESAM has done to Nairo. Pikachu is short; Zero Suit struggles vs short characters. Zero Suit's QA punishes are lolworthy, as in her awful out-of-shield options that aren't Up B. Pikachu has powerful punishes on whiffed grabs. He'll grab you and combo you, throw you off the stage. When you tether, he'll interrupt it easily and knock your ass back off the stage. Pikachu doesn't have gimmicks, he has a solid set of tools that create a dominant top 5 threat. How is a character that goes even with Sheik, beats Zero Suit and Rosalina and so many other characters, only having a negative matchup vs Luigi, not at least top 5? Top 5 is like, the lowest you can put this character. Honestly think it's unreasonable to put him lower than 3. idk what you're seeing Shaya but I don't think you understand Pikachu at all.

 

[Shaya]

You're the only person in this thread to ever think Sheik goes even with Pika and every time you incite said conversation you ignore what people say and bring up the same completely unaltered opinion at another opportunity.
I've seen Nairo annihilate Pika before as well. ESAM has a significant advantage in match up knowledge compared to his opponent's most of the time, in this case he has the second or third best NA ZSS to practice with heavily.
And yeah, I say gimmicks because only one player can get away with all these supposed strengths, how can he have a solid sets of tools to be a dominant top 5 threat when he has absolutely no dominance whatsoever?*
Pika being a soft counter or slight advantage on characters who don't have moveset-wide low to the ground hitting actions while solidly losing to the rest (of those at a high-tier power level) is why he is a gimmick, if you can understand why I think that and still comprehend a different opinion of your own I'd like to read it.

I think I do understand this character; I've been playing that character for longer than you've been talking or walking or perhaps were even conceived if your age is accurate; I've won things with this character by my side in three games (I've played Pikachu against ZeRo's Sheik in tournament). No, I don't understand him at the same level as ESAM or heavily committed Pikachu mains in Smash4. But everything I can understand, through objective data, my own experiences and the lack of anything tangible to contradict my thoughts (I really would like to see it though) is why I don't think he can claim top five at all. Top ten is zealous in my eyes but possible.

*I see a lot more dominant results from:


Rob and Oli start to push it. But otherwise....
Look beyond ESAM and Pikachu has close to nothing.

 

[Ffamran]

Nitpick here and for future reference: grab game and throw game are completely different ideas e.g. Fox has a good grab game, but a poor throw game vs. ZSS has a bad grab game, but good throw game. Also, resorting to ****, ****, and *** to emphasis a statement isn't exactly good use of vocabulary. There are countless adjectives and adverbs in the English language you can use. This isn't English class, but if I see another ******* statement about how character J can **** **** up for character ******* K, I'm going to flip a table and slam it over a frog.

 

[SPoitter]

Nitpick here and for future reference: grab game and throw game are completely different ideas e.g. Fox has a good grab game, but a poor throw game vs. ZSS has a bad grab game, but good throw game.

I'm confused, what distinguishes these two things other than a grab being a grapple and a throw being a throw, like I mean sure Fox doesn't have good options out of a throw but can get grabs relatively well, but doesn't that contribute to the full fact that he just doesn't have a good grab game, I don't know, it seems superfluous, I'm sorry if I'm coming off as condescending or just awkward and rude, but that's a weird sentiment. Anyway, the discussion between Pika is interesting, I've only seen a couple of sets with ESAM and nobody else really, I still have yet to find any other Pikachu players, I'm changing my mind about pika being top 5 now, because in retrospect he's been utilized by one person and has no results outside of a couple of regionals? (It may sound stupid but I have literally no idea what EVO is classified as) it looks like, we don't have much to go off of other than ZeRo and ESAM telling us to take their word for it

 

[Minordeth]

On ZSS and Pika - How many times have Nairo and Esam met in tourney again in Smash 4? Twice? In the same tourney? Cool. Was it also that one time where they both went 2-2 in Winners Semis? Or the Losers Finals where Nairo made bizarre recovery and edgeguard mistakes? Even with his whiffing, it was hardly Pika bopping ZSS, but rather ESAM getting in Nairo's head and Nairo getting outplayed.

I don't think you can make any kind of conclusion about the MU from a single tourney, regardless.

What I do know, is that ZSS is also hard to use. She requires micro spacing that doesn't lend itself well to online play, which should keep her representation down - just like Pikachu. However, we still see way more ZSS reps than we do Pika reps. We see more Rosa reps than Pika reps. Rosa is not easy to play at a high level either.

A character being hard to utilize doesn't stop people from playing said character. Being harder to win with does.

 

[NairWizard]

Pikachu is a counterpick character against Falcon, ZSS, and Rosalina, has one of the best Sheik MUs in the game, and is a hardcore anti-zoner (characters like Pacman, Robin, and Duck Hunt can't play their normal game because of QA and ground mobility). So there are plenty of reason to use him, but I just can't see him as a viable solo main. He loses to Mario, Luigi, Ness, and Fox at least, and then goes even with a bunch of random characters like Ike or Peach. I've seen people claim that he doesn't have weaknesses. Please stop saying this. He does.

• Mediocre initial dash so ground mobility is restricted to running or walking (both of which are good, and he has good options out of both, but initial dashing is a big part of the metagame especially in top tier).
• Air speed is lousy so contesting characters like Mario air to air is difficult
• Landing lag is above average on his aerials so you can't really space air to ground
• His hitlag modifiers for ramming shields is enormous, so if you hit a shield with an electric attack you're toast (people aren't abusing shield vs. Pikachu as much as they could be, just note the difference between when Pikachu uses f-smash and whiffs completely vs. when Pikachu uses f-smash on a shield)
• Lack of reliable KO confirms against shield, poor grab range
• No way to kill an opponent in the air except for Thunder
• Low weight

Now, let's not go overboard and make claims such as that he doesn't have great/top-tier edgeguarding (because he does), or even more that he relies on his small size to win matches. The small size has a little to do with it but isn't the main factor to his niche as a character, which comes from his tremendous disadvantaged state. Great recovery, f3 n-air, f2 up-air with disjoint, QA, b-air as a landing option, Thunder escapes... there are really very few characters I would rather have than Pikachu when it comes to being in disadvantage (actually none, come to think of it). You can get out of so many bad situations with his tools, it's pretty nuts. In neutral, QA holds him together. And of course his advantage is pretty great because of the edgeguarding though he can't kill. But his disadvantage is really the reason to play Pikachu.

Overall, he's just not a great character, though. Quick Attack is great. His disadvantage is great. But not solo main material.

 

[Minordeth]

As an addition to my previous post - I think Pika is a good character. But outside of ESAM, it's hard to make a case for him being better than the Ikes, Peaches, Ryus, Greninjas, and whatever other good characters exist in that nebulous region outside of the Top Tier Ladies.

 

[SPoitter]

Pikachu is a counterpick character against Falcon, ZSS, and Rosalina, has one of the best Sheik MUs in the game, and is a hardcore anti-zoner (characters like Pacman, Robin, and Duck Hunt can't play their normal game because of QA and ground mobility). So there are plenty of reason to use him, but I just can't see him as a viable solo main. He loses to Mario, Luigi, Ness, and Fox at least, and then goes even with a bunch of random characters like Ike or Peach. I've seen people claim that he doesn't have weaknesses. Please stop saying this. He does.

• Mediocre initial dash so ground mobility is restricted to running or walking (both of which are good, and he has good options out of both, but initial dashing is a big part of the metagame especially in top tier).
• Air speed is lousy so contesting characters like Mario air to air is difficult
• Landing lag is above average on his aerials so you can't really space air to ground
• His hitlag modifiers for ramming shields is enormous, so if you hit a shield with an electric attack you're toast (people aren't abusing shield vs. Pikachu as much as they could be, just note the difference between when Pikachu uses f-smash and whiffs completely vs. when Pikachu uses f-smash on a shield)
• Lack of reliable KO confirms against shield, poor grab range
• No way to kill an opponent in the air except for Thunder
• Low weight

Now, let's not go overboard and make claims such as that he doesn't have great/top-tier edgeguarding (because he does), or even more that he relies on his small size to win matches. The small size has a little to do with it but isn't the main factor to his niche as a character, which comes from his tremendous disadvantaged state. Great recovery, f3 n-air, f2 up-air with disjoint, QA, b-air as a landing option, Thunder escapes... there are really very few characters I would rather have than Pikachu when it comes to being in disadvantage (actually none, come to think of it). You can get out of so many bad situations with his tools, it's pretty nuts. In neutral, QA holds him together. And of course his advantage is pretty great because of the edgeguarding though he can't kill. But his disadvantage is really the reason to play Pikachu.

Overall, he's just not a great character, though. Quick Attack is great. His disadvantage is great. But not solo main material.

I agree, Pikachu is more of a B tier character, at least now, he still has many tools but lacks proper innovation and has polarizing statistics, also question:
Should we go more in depth about pikachu's faults and come to a unanimous agreement on his placement, or are we gonna discuss someone else in the top tier range? Just curious

 

[ぱみゅ]

How comes people talk about Ranai's success and not even mention the fact that Japan plays almost exclusively on Omega Stages and thus skewing character viability?