Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Mayday]

This basically. He is at least close to a lot of characters worst MU, as there is a group of slower chars with poor neutral tools which basically get circles walked around them by the best speedy characters.

Definitely. Really hate the DK-Sonic MU. DK has basically no tools to deal with spin dash, except hoping for a badly spaced jump out of spin dash.

 

[Nabbitnator]

You onow who I found surprisingly easy to deal with Peach? Lucas. His Zair and PK Fire shut down her float, and open her up to follow ups. He doesn't really have have to worry too much about being edge guarded either, since he can come back from literally anywhere. So he can just go low, and make it back. Not to mention his tether. Her turnip shenanigans also aren't reliable, since Lucas has a reasonably fast reflector. Sure Peach could try and approach by floating a little higher than ground level, but Utilt, Usmash, and PK Freeze shut those options down. Or straight up Nairing or Dairing for a surprise. Lucas also hits pretty hard. He'd have no trouble killing her, especially since he has 3 kill throws, a set up out of one, a really hard hitting Dmash, and a quick Fsmash.

I can see utilt stopping her float but usmash, pk freeze shouldnt be able to shut it down unless she is legit not paying attention. Pk fire isn't much but just an annoyance for peach yeah it can stop her from floating from time to time but if she is mixing up floats or air dodges into floats, then she shouldnt have a problem. Now Zair yeah that can do work since its more fleible as an option.

 

[Nobie]

Let's talk about Bowser in Loser's Finals of Xanadu Monthly. Whoa what?

 

[Nu~]

Let's talk about Bowser in Loser's Finals of Xanadu Monthly. Whoa what?

That sounds awesome.

...Did he encounter any shieks?

 

[Nobie]

That sounds awesome.

...Did he encounter any shieks?

Not sure, but he did beat Snow's Fox in Loser's Finals and is now in Grand.

...And now he reset the bracket.

 

[Project Quarantine]

He lost 3-1. Went Luigi last game 4, but got two stocked. Nonetheless, great to see someone who knows bowser inside and out. Congrats to Pink Fresh

 

[Ffamran]

So... should we discuss Peach's ledge options: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKOsGR6tLLY? Or how her combination of Float and low fall speed kind of makes her Toad (counter) one of the stronger counters to use off stages compared to say, Roy, Marth/Lucina, or Lucario's since she can hover around? Or how Falco's recovery is so borked that he makes Little Mac look better while recovering? He has 2 videos on how to edgeguard him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Ubq-fQ4pk and: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0MRQfiO2-8. And Fox too since they have similar recoveries except Fox's is pretty much superior in all ways, but jump height and how their attacks interact while recovering: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbNNc15B4Qo.

And if you want some negativity on Peach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6Ibtg0Uj7I. As far as I know, this is the only video that covers common habits of a character. I don't know if there are any videos on common habits of Sheik, ZSS, Diddy, Luigi, Mario, Captain Falcon, Fox, etc. That could be another topic to discuss on common habits of so and so characters or in general like dash attacking which is part-rookie and part the fact that when you dash, you commit to a set of options. Same with jumping, throwing, rolling, etc.

 

[Megamang]

After watching ESAM's video on priority (well, the lack thereof), I have a higher opinion of high damage slower aerials. That Bowser was trading quite a bit, and it helped him tremendously. Much easier goal than getting a clean hit, going for a trade might be the future of heavy aerial games.

 

[Ghostbone]

The fact that aerials always trade is also the reason Palutena's bair is amazing. The invincibility means Palutena wins every aerial exchange, it's super threatening to go up against.

 

[TriTails]

So... should we discuss Peach's ledge options: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKOsGR6tLLY? Or how her combination of Float and low fall speed kind of makes her Toad (counter) one of the stronger counters to use off stages compared to say, Roy, Marth/Lucina, or Lucario's since she can hover around? Or how Falco's recovery is so borked that he makes Little Mac look better while recovering? He has 2 videos on how to edgeguard him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Ubq-fQ4pk and: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0MRQfiO2-8. And Fox too since they have similar recoveries except Fox's is pretty much superior in all ways, but jump height and how their attacks interact while recovering: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbNNc15B4Qo.

And if you want some negativity on Peach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6Ibtg0Uj7I. As far as I know, this is the only video that covers common habits of a character. I don't know if there are any videos on common habits of Sheik, ZSS, Diddy, Luigi, Mario, Captain Falcon, Fox, etc. That could be another topic to discuss on common habits of so and so characters or in general like dash attacking which is part-rookie and part the fact that when you dash, you commit to a set of options. Same with jumping, throwing, rolling, etc.

Luigi doesn't even need thirty seconds to cover everything.

 

[Trifroze]

Here's the proof for the 2 frame ledgesnap I promised yesterday:

 

[NairWizard]

Here's the proof for the 2 frame ledgesnap I promised yesterday:

Damn, dude, "You sure told us" has never been more accurate. The minor undertone of frustration was great.

great video

 

[Megamang]

Damn, unless its some weird quirk of the animation im convinced.

 

[Xermo]

Trifroze with the god-tier music selection.

 

[Shaya]

This is obviously what we get for trusting the ignorance spreading/1984 dystopic media's propaganda.
I suppose at this point there are a lot of little intricacies we have observed but not completely or definitively grasped or defined yet.

Honestly, doing it is very finicky, we don't have easy 1 frame progression control.
[probably best if we all keep the fluff comments to... maybe the YT page itself... like 'cool music', 'nice tone', etc]

 

[Trifroze]

My "frustration" mostly comes from the fact that even top players and commentators who should know better were unaware of this, but on the other hand if I wasn't recording replays with a 60 fps capture card and didn't accidentally stumble upon this all those months ago I'd probably be unaware too. then again i do lab this game as much as i play actual matches

Either way it isn't a huge deal, this is just my attempt at making people across the skill levels to finally stop calling it the one frame vulnerability. In terms of practice this doesn't straight up double its leniency because the first frame is often too low to be hit with any on-stage option (I think it depends on how low of an angle you recover from) and in addition the timing was always more lenient than what "1 frame" suggests, it was basically as lenient as you had active frames on the attack you tried to punish it with.

 

[Steelballray]

Great work man, real great work.

Okay guys, now every character board should test their character's on-stage spiking options. the attacks that hit below the ledge. Two frames are a lot of time and its really a waste to not try to do something with them.

I don't think it'd be all that hasty for me to say that this will change the meta a LOT. We always talked about how forgiving this game is to the character who want to recover. How safe it is to grab the ledge because really, ones you do it only a ledge trump can give you any real risk. But now we have this, and with how two frames are a lot of time to react and do stuff I think characters with good options (mostly down smashes I guess) to hit below the ledge will have a serious advantage.

Also in case people get good at spiking from the stage, will this result in recovering on the stage being finally considered a good, viable option?

Yeah, I am too hyped...

 

[Megamang]

I mean, people have been learning how to punish the ledge snap for a while. We understand it better now, but the results probably won't change drastically because people have still been putting the hitboxes in the same place in attempt to punish. Though I think people will be better able to punish it as time goes on, people will also recover smarter.

 

[Steelballray]

I mean, people have been learning how to punish the ledge snap for a while. We understand it better now, but the results probably won't change drastically because people have still been putting the hitboxes in the same place in attempt to punish. Though I think people will be better able to punish it as time goes on, people will also recover smarter.

Bar a few ones, I remember most of the top players still just stand and watch while the opponent grab the ledge. Even some who play characters with attacks that hit below the ledge.

EDIT: I know I am getting too hyped but I always felt that something was wrong and that the ledge option was just too good and I'm glad that I'm right. Now I just want to see this abused to the max. I know I'll be labbing this like hell with my main.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Basically any character I play. He can run away from the fatties forever and they can only touch him with a hard read.

Pretty much this. It doesn't matter how strong you are if Sonic can run circles around you.

Here's the proof for the 2 frame ledgesnap I promised yesterday:

Well, that is interesting.

 

[Nobie]

I don't quite entirely buy that heavies have by far the worst matchup against Sonic. I mean, it makes sense, but Sonic doesn't just outspeed heavies, he outspeeds EVERYONE. Obviously if you're faster you have a better chance of punishing Sonic when he is vulnerable, but I think what makes Sonic really tough is how his spin moves clank with things.

 

[Centicerise]

Here's the proof for the 2 frame ledgesnap I promised yesterday:

May I request you test non-teleport recoveries as well? I know it's harder to test but teleport recoveries may operate differently from conventional recoveries.

 

[Ffamran]

Luigi doesn't even need thirty seconds to cover everything.

The point was her ledge options not how long it takes for her to do anything at the ledge.

 

[C0rvus]

Speed is hardly a factor in how well your character does against Sonic. he is the fastest, nobody can catch up to him. What matters most is being able to force Sonic to approach you. In the case of characters like Ganondorf, DK, etc. Sonic has little reason to not just hit them a couple of times and run away. That's what makes those particular matchups so hard. Give the blue slimeball a reason to hit you and it isn't so bad. In my experience, Toon Link went even or better against Sonic. I also think as time goes on, Spin Dash may be mostly fazed out from Sonic's gameplan. I mean, as Palutena, I can jab through it almost on reaction. It's pretty telegraphed, but I imagine some characters can't reliably punish it.

 

[NegaNixx]

Sonic's neutral is pretty linear at the moment. I see the hit and run style a lot, which is how Sonic fights bosses in his games (don't attack/evade when it's dangerous, strike for 1-3 hits while it's safe) I don't see a lot of Sonic's Tech chasing with D-Throw especially when his grab game is so good with his fast approaches due to run speed, pivot grab and dash grab's lag being negated due to spin dash tech, the ability to mix it up with a decent dash attack that can be delayed significantly through a fox trot, and of course standard Spin Dash mix ups. I see a lot of "guaranteed" things from a grab (u-throw->aerial) and not a lot of mind games using D-throw which is an imparative mix up to his game plan. Spin can be cancelled out. People are getting used to that and are stuffing it out.

 

[Vipermoon]

Sonic's neutral is pretty linear at the moment. I see the hit and run style a lot, which is how Sonic fights bosses in his games (don't attack/evade when it's dangerous, strike for 1-3 hits while it's safe) I don't see a lot of Sonic's Tech chasing with D-Throw especially when his grab game is so good with his fast approaches due to run speed, pivot grab and dash grab's lag being negated due to spin dash tech, the ability to mix it up with a decent dash attack that can be delayed significantly through a fox trot, and of course standard Spin Dash mix ups. I see a lot of "guaranteed" things from a grab (u-throw->aerial) and not a lot of mind games using D-throw which is an imparative mix up to his game plan. Spin can be cancelled out. People are getting used to that and are stuffing it out.

Actually, that's how you fight the boss in every video game ever.

 

[Illuminose]

May I request you test non-teleport recoveries as well? I know it's harder to test but teleport recoveries may operate differently from conventional recoveries.

It's just easier to hit teleport recoveries (and their 2 frames of vulnerability) because there's a set timing for the ledge grab no matter where you perform the up b from.

 

[PUK]

It's just easier to hit teleport recoveries (and their 2 frames of vulnerability) because there's a set timing for the ledge grab no matter where you perform the up b from.

With the exception of being right under the ledge for sheik and zelda.

 

[Smog Frog]

http://www.twitch.tv/smashstudios apparently mekos is here. could we see any ?

also the infamous vs mu is playing, kai vs rango. kai is up 2-1.

e: kai takes it 3-1.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I told everyone that Match-up was even or Sonic in slight advantage. Nobody believed me

 

[Smog Frog]

its just one set against like 5. it doesnt really prove much

 

[san.]

Kai also got 9th at Smashcon while Rango is unranked as far as I know. He was messaging me on Skype for some tips in the MU since he personally doesn't like it.

I personally think the MU is around even. Slight Ike favor at the worst depending on how well Sonic can kill Ike after all the patches. Even with a small skill gap, Kai had trouble killing him before 160%.

 

[Mario766]

I told everyone that Match-up was even or Sonic in slight advantage. Nobody believed me

Come back when Sonics beat an Ike who is skilled at the MU.

For examples, Ryo beats every Sonic in FL and even forces Sonic players to change characters to play his Ike. Ryuga does the same thing to Lou Rich, until he switched to Sheik.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's weird how Trifroze gets [triggered] when people say ledge vulnerability is 1 frame instead of 2. But then again I still get [triggered] when commentators don't know what they're talking about with Yoshi when they say Sky is the best or japan yoshi's are really good :^)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'll be very blunt:

Rango is not a good Ike. Also lacks some very basic fundamentals particularly in edge guarding and on stage movement. He's been mostly an online player which is part of the problem. He's in that range of newbie Ikes where Sonic is difficult. And then you get good and Sonic is no longer a problem.

Really if anything, the fact that he won a single game against a ranked Sonic proves that Ike wins the MU if he can scrap out a win against a much more skilled opponent. >_>

 

[Shaya]

^ That's a silly logic.
Players can push a character with hard-read tools to win matches, 2-stocks make this a lot more feasible as well.
(I get this was a fallible logic sarcasm post but :<)

 

[Rikkhan]

well fatality 6-0 kai, I watched very few matches but it looked so free for fatality.

 

[Djent]

Fatality was the best player by far at TFC, didn't even bother watching TBH (Marvel's been great though).

Since MUs play out differently at mid-level than they do at high- and top-levels, I wouldn't put much stock in Kai vs. Rango either way.

 

[TriTails]

The point was her ledge options not how long it takes for her to do anything at the ledge.

No. I meant it doesn't even take thirty seconds of a video to explain 'Luigi's common habits' .

 

[Ffamran]

No. I meant it doesn't even take thirty seconds of a video to explain 'Luigi's common habits' .

I thought you were talking about ledge cover options because of "cover". That being said, it would be worthwhile to talk about common habits of characters. Sometimes moves are too good or safe leading to say, a Roy using Nair to punish out of habit rather something else or say, a Fox player reflexively Up Smashing after Nair, but somehow the opponent was sent backwards rather than forwards.