Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Mr. Johan]

i dont like this discussion one bit, so i'm gonna shift the discussion towards charge projectiles

other than needles, what do you guys think the best storable charge projectile is? my money is on shadow ball because its frame data is amazing and its consistently the strongest and you can do tricky movement stuff with the recoil

R.O.B.'s Gyro. Charge on a whim, great charge release and speed, blocks all projectiles not named Thoron, and is a miniature wall that can be picked up. Definitely the best of the bunch.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

I must note for those that didn't notice: the guy didn't refute my claim of where he got the words from. And where he got them from isn't really important except to note the parallels of his thinking: just as the actors in SnK are against the "original ideology" of the first king, the person above claimed that competitive smash players are against the "original ideology" of its creator, self-aggrandizing yourselves in a really disgusting way, never mind being completely wrong.
And I knew nothing of the SJWs on reddit but yes, Catholics/thomists have a tradition of talking about ideology that comes straight from Marx and more specifically those like Alasdair macintyre who was a former Marxist and is a thomist now.

 

[DunnoBro]

My thoughts on this are kinda like "how did this not be considered a thing at some point". Considering the player controls the frisby/dish to some extent and it seems to be multihitting in the process.

Probably because as I'm finding out it's a very obnoxious input that changes per character/% and also the concept that frisbee combos into kill moves isn't very common as it only does it at point blank with proper mashing.

But on floaties and midweights at higher percents, it's really difficult to punish their air dodge. You need to throw the frisbee of a rising short hop soft toss. And at that angle, it's easier to do trick shot so that's probably what we all did instead. Of course it doesn't confirm into a kill or even connect as well but it was the comfortable option.

And full hop is the only way to catch the jump, which is pretty hard too.

This is great on fast fallers though, which tend to be duck hunts worst MUs by far. Duck hunt is generally okay vs floaties.

Also another kinda big finding about how buffered/frame perfect uairs are the only ones that register as a combo after dthrow at middish percents, but it's still training mode so i won't get too hopeful. But it is noticeable that the hitbox starts about the dog's head closer to the ground this way.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

I've been lurking since APEX in this thread and the last, and yet somehow this is still the most hilariously misinformed thing I've read.
.

In contemporary society the only way the word ideology is used is when speaking of extreme viewpoints, it isn't used in the context of explaining the larger socio-cultural background beliefs that underlay and forms society itself. The way the word ideology was used was in the latter sense, not the former, meaning the person using the words is as I described. Now try explaining why this is uninformed, or maybe you want to stop with ad hominem that by its nature you can't explain.

 

[HFlash]

I must note for those that didn't notice: the guy didn't refute my claim of where he got the words from. And where he got them from isn't really important except to note the parallels of his thinking: just as the actors in SnK are against the "original ideology" of the first king, the person above claimed that competitive smash players are against the "original ideology" of its creator, self-aggrandizing yourselves in a really disgusting way, never mind being completely wrong.
And I knew nothing of the SJWs on reddit but yes, Catholics/thomists have a tradition of talking about ideology that comes straight from Marx and more specifically those like Alasdair macintyre who was a former Marxist and is a thomist now.

How in the hell did you jump from talking about video games to talking about philosophy and religion. Holy ****, your head is so far up your own ass that you can give yourself a colonoscopy. Please stop derailing the thread from talking about Smash Bros. My comment earlier was only to say that Smash was meant to not be competitive. This was a thought that concerned Sakurai during the creation of Smash 64 as even during those times, in Japan at least, 2D fighters were played almost exclusively professionally, and he wanted his game to be anything but that.

/rant done and back to topic

If we are including utility, Lucario's neutral has to take the cake. Being able to B reverse into Usmash is God Like.

 

[teddystalin]

In contemporary society the only way the word ideology is used is when speaking of extreme viewpoints, it isn't used in the context of explaining the larger socio-cultural background beliefs that underlay and forms society itself. The way the word ideology was used was in the latter sense, not the former, meaning the person using the words is as I described. Now try explaining why this is uninformed, or maybe you want to stop with ad hominem that by its nature you can't explain.

The original use of the word was somewhat awkwardly phrased, but clearly referred to Sakurai's personal ideology, a term which not only exists, but is also in common usage throughout the social sciences. The idea that ideologies are by their nature radical or extreme is fundamentally wrong. As your argument a) was built on an incorrect premise and b) did not and does not belong on a forum about Smash Bros., I felt no need to engage with you like we were in a ******* debate club. Now let's please stop derailing the thread.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

I reject the false dichotomy made between "competitive" and other sorts of play. I think by its nature smash is a competitive game, even with items, and that is what makes it extremely fun. Why this is false is exhibited quite nicely by sakurai and his team coming out with balance patches. Your methods of self-aggrandizement come from the fact that it isn't the nature Of the game itself that you rail against, it's the environment. You would rather he created the game such that only players that wanted to compete with the best anywhere and everywhere would/COULD pick up the game. In other words, a competitive environment for competitive players is one where there are fewer players, or in other words, less competition.

The idea that ideologies are by their nature radical or extreme is fundamentally wrong

Note I said how it is used, I never said what you attribute to me saying. For example, you hear "right wing" or "left wing" ideology, you don't hear "middle class" or "middle of the road" ideology, never mind "ruling" ideology. This is how contemporary society, itself ruled by an ideology it does not acknowledge, uses the word.

 

[|RK|]

Viability Ratings v2 | Philosophical Impressions

Hume once said of tiers: Is it based upon results? No. Is it representative of the meta? No. Commit it then to be infracted, for it contains nothing but theorycraft and delusion.

Seriously though, what is happening here


(On topic: Yeah, Aura Sphere is great, but I think Robin's Neutral B is pretty good too.)

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Hume would have nothing to say about a "meta" other than to class it as a religious delusion. Probably...as I'm not a Hume scholar.

 

[wedl!!]

Dude Darkjaws what are you on about

Paging @ Shaya

 

[DaRkJaWs]

I already explained what I was on about, go towards the beginning of this page and I lay it out. Anyway the discussion ended, is the first thing all of you do when you can't win an argument or don't like somebody else's (or can't read/can't understand it) is report them? Good lord, remind me to report you next time I see you pull a slight infraction.

 

[san.]

Words can be synonymic when a specific word doesn't exactly fit a certain context with the standard definition. Change 'ideology' to 'idea' or 'ideal.' DONE.

 

[Mario766]

Hi, Second post here.

So, I've noticed when playing , when recovering high with Quickdraw, opponent's don't expect it often/can't get to the other side of the stage in time. So, is it better to recover high or low with Ike?

That's because Ike rockets across the stage. If they cover high recovery with QD, you just take the ledge or you go to neutral.

On platform stages, you can also get platform AC QD which leads back into neutral, not to mention QD always auto cancels at full hop distance, so it's easy to be unpunishable.

 

[Megamang]

Smash 4 was clearly designed with competition in mind, and the balance patching so far would indicate the dev team wants the game to be competitive. Anyone who uses the fact that 64 was designed to be played at parties is missing the point. Besides, in the end they were both really made to make the company money.

Best chargeable projectile is needles. This is my main complaint with shiek. Sure others rely on theirs more than her, but the fact you have to approach the best waller and CQCer due to transcendent projectiles.... makes her stand out.

 

[meleebrawler]

So on an unrelated note... it seems Mewtwo can defeat almost any approach if he is good at selecting his options. Bair in particular can challenge almost any aerial, even ones like Link's dair with good spacing and timing.

(He also can sort of pull a Luigi with his shadow balls to help get grabs).

 

[TDK]

Fun Fact: ZeRo thinks Peach is Top Tier/Could be Top Tier.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I must note for those that didn't notice: the guy didn't refute my claim of where he got the words from. And where he got them from isn't really important except to note the parallels of his thinking: just as the actors in SnK are against the "original ideology" of the first king, the person above claimed that competitive smash players are against the "original ideology" of its creator, self-aggrandizing yourselves in a really disgusting way, never mind being completely wrong.
And I knew nothing of the SJWs on reddit but yes, Catholics/thomists have a tradition of talking about ideology that comes straight from Marx and more specifically those like Alasdair macintyre who was a former Marxist and is a thomist now.

Please don't. Just don't. Please.

Fun Fact: ZeRo thinks Peach is Top Tier/Could be Top Tier.

*everyone

 

[Shaya]

Come on team, I haven't even had a sip of coffee yet, hold down the fort~

Carry on...
(hopefully the stuff I opted to delete doesn't make things too confusing [I'm forced to look at things with the lens of truth :<])

 

[Smog Frog]

i think top tier is pushing it for . not so much that she isnt good enough, but the competition for top tier is probably too good. all have stronger claims to top tier than she does. is she good? obviously. is she good enough to compete with the others for top tier? i doubt it.

also the charge projectiles are all very good, but shadow ball just stands out. you have a frame 49 faf on it, compared to 55 on arcthunder(62 on thoron but who gives a **** about that?), 57 on sun salutation, 62 on (full)aura sphere and 54 on charge shot. its consistently the most powerful, only being beat by high aura aura sphere, and you have sliding shenanigans and pretty powerful landing traps as a product of the uniquely fast faf on it(follow it and they have to use their dj to get over it which is a free usmash, or airdodge into the ground for the same result). only thing i really noticed about it is that it takes a bit longer than the others to fully charge, but fully charged shadow ball is probably one of the top 5, if not top 3, projectiles in the game.

ps: does bonus fruit count as a charge projectile? its so wonky.

 

[HeavyLobster]

i think top tier is pushing it for . not so much that she isnt good enough, but the competition for top tier is probably too good. all have stronger claims to top tier than she does. is she good? obviously. is she good enough to compete with the others for top tier? i doubt it.

Zero's called half the cast top tier at one point or another. I think she's probably high-mid, maybe high at best. Don't see her cracking the top 10, but top 15-20 seems likely.

 

[Trifroze]

Fun Fact: ZeRo thinks Peach is Top Tier/Could be Top Tier.

Is she amazing with insane combos and a lot of potential?

 

[wedl!!]

I think her case is similar to the other borderline top 10 characters (, basically). She certainly has top tier qualities (her punish game, shield pressure, tons of tech, as well as pretty good frame data even with a 44 frame projectile TT_TT), but some things (bad mobility and approach options) hold her back from being a top 10 threat.

 

[TDK]

Just did some Labbing with Ike. Down Tilt -> F-Air -> F-Smash killed at 40%, and the only time it didn't work was when I messed up and did Forward Tilt instead.

True Combo?

EDIT: The combo started at 40% and ended at 82% and the loss of a stock.

 

[Shaya]

doubtful, probably best to keep that level of theory to the ike boards? =)

 

[san.]

Just did some Labbing with Ike. Down Tilt -> F-Air -> F-Smash killed at 40%, and the only time it didn't work was when I messed up and did Forward Tilt instead.

True Combo?

No. Fsmash is like 31 frames startup or something like that.

 

[Djent]

I agree with @ wedl!! 's assessment of 's potential (though I personally think / are somewhere in the top 10). Furthermore, this game is far along enough that I'm not comfortable calling a character top 10 without strong and consistent corroboration in both theory and practice. Peach has 2 strong players and some impressive "theory" stuff but I still have no idea what her MU spread looks like.

Also, check out my new sig y'all~

 

[wedl!!]

I'm currently writing a Peach guide, so I decided I might as well post my MU chart draft here (with the characters listed as top threats on the first page).
-1:
Either 0 or -1:
0:
Either 0 or +1:
+1:/

It isn't finished (plus there's no vods for most of these MUs), so feel free to discuss my opinions.

 

[Megamang]

Peach is like rosaluma in that if you don't understand her gameplan you get absolutely bodied; once you learn to maneuver it then you have to outplay the player. And so high damage. I feel like Peach is always outdamaging me.

 

[Sir Tundra]

A topic about the concept of smash bros turning into an argument about Religion and ideologies? I.. IDEK what's going on right now.

Aside from that mishap *sips some coffee*

It seems I have a lot of catching up too do.

I'm just trying to explain how redundant it is saying that edgeguarding has no reward yet most players don't take any risks. If a player takes no risk and doesn't edgeguard, then of course the opponent will get back for free. A character with an easy spike like Ganon could sent Pit to the abyss while he uses up b. My point is no risk= no reward. Some people are acting like edgeguarding is some impossible feat if it's not little mac or dr. Mario

Theirs a reason why people don't bother to take risk when it comes to edge guard. When it comes to smash 4 stage control is way too important. People don't want to take risk off stage because if they were not only could that character loose that stage control being put at a disadvantage but theirs a change he could loose a stock offstage depending on the character he/she is facing.

Not to mention certain character's like ,, and are almost impossible to edgeguard because of their god like recoveries.

In a game like melee where almost every character fall's like a brick, most character's don't have a good recovery(with a few exceptions), the existence of edge hogging, and the airdodge puts you on helpless. Edgeguarding tends to be alot easier in that game compared to smash 4 especially since no character can auto snap the ledge(with a few exceptions).

As a Question, what makes better than ?

and are almost the exact same character with only 3 different moves, 4 if you include final smashes but final smashes aren't really a topic when it comes to viability.

The point is one really shouldn't be better then the other. Sure dark pit has a better matchup against cause of his electic arm shock and pit has better arrows making him have a better zoning kit but those shouldn't be a reason on to why these two should be seperated from each other when it comes to tiers.

I think her case is similar to the other borderline top 10 characters (, basically). She certainly has top tier qualities (her punish game, shield pressure, tons of tech, as well as pretty good frame data even with a 44 frame projectile TT_TT), but some things (bad mobility and approach options) hold her back from being a top 10 threat.

I agree with you @ wedl!! really does have the potential to be a borderline top 10. Or at least a borderline top 15. The amount top tier qualities she has are incredible such as her punish game, shield pressure, and tons of tech like that psuedo wave dash with float. I also think that SlayerZ is also really pushing this character to even further heights. If only she had better mobility.

Just did some Labbing with Ike. Down Tilt -> F-Air -> F-Smash killed at 40%, and the only time it didn't work was when I messed up and did Forward Tilt instead.

True Combo?

EDIT: The combo started at 40% and ended at 82% and the loss of a stock.

First thing first TDK welcome to smash boards.

Now I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure Down tilt -. F-air -> F-Smash is almost impossible to pull of especially due to the amount of startup f-smash it has. Then again I could be wrong since I'm not an Ike main myself.

Also stuff like this is probably best described on the Ike boards.

 

[FullMoon]

I have a lot of respect for Peach mains. I really wanted to play Peach but I can't play her to save my life, which sucks since I like her a lot as a character and her float mechanic is fun.

It's really great that she's getting more attention now.

 

[wedl!!]

"Incredible shield pressure with Side-B"

Huh?

Also @ FullMoon I feel the same way about Greninja rofl

 

[Sir Tundra]

"Incredible shield pressure with Side-B"

Huh?

Also @ FullMoon I feel the same way about Greninja rofl

isn't her side b like.. safe on shield if it hits? If that's not the case then let me just edit that little part out right now.

 

[wedl!!]

It bounces off shields, so it's safe. There's just a lot better ways to pressure shields, though, especially since there's only one hitbox and it has a bit of lag, so it's a lot more punishable than BF.

 

[Sir Tundra]

It bounces off shields, so it's safe. There's just a lot better ways to pressure shields, though, especially since there's only one hitbox and it has a bit of lag, so it's a lot more punishable than BF.

Oh i see. Well then my apologizes. I'm going to edit that real quick.

edit: It has been done

Also your matchup spread for peach.

the MU seems about right

However I'm not sure if doing a matchup spread is really something you should put on a guide.

Especially when some people view mu's so differently but that's just me.

Yeah people would want to know which character's Peach struggles against but still.

Anyways good luck on your guide.

 

[HFlash]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it Peach's Dair that is her main shield pressure tool?

 

[TDK]

It Is. In General, Peach has a LOT of Shield Pressure Tools.

 

[Ffamran]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it Peach's Dair that is her main shield pressure tool?

Off the top of my head, Vegetables, retreating Fairs, Dair, and perhaps Nair after Dair along with the usual grab. That's kind of lot compared to most characters.

 

[Blobface]

I might just be ultrabiased as a Ganon main, but I really think people seriously overestimate the difficulty of edgeguarding and seriously understate the reward. Most characters aren't going to get back from a good hit offstage, and almost none are going to be in any better of a position. If you really have to you can just keep smacking that schmuck till they die.

Oracustodiphobia (Google translate don't fail me now) is probably a result of 2 of our main top tiers (Sheik and ZSS) being near impossible to edgeguard due to having stupid, horrible, utterly overtuned long distance recoveries with lots of invincibility, especially Sheik.

 

[TriTails]

I might just be ultrabiased as a Ganon main, but I really think people seriously overestimate the difficulty of edgeguarding and seriously understate the reward. Most characters aren't going to get back from a good hit offstage, and almost none are going to be in any better of a position. If you really have to you can just keep smacking that schmuck till they die.

Oracustodiphobia (Google translate don't fail me now) is probably a result of 2 of our main top tiers (Sheik and ZSS) being near impossible to edgeguard due to having stupid, horrible, utterly overtuned long distance recoveries with lots of invincibility, especially Sheik.

Maybe that's because Ganon has good coverage off-stage. F-air is mighty, D-air spike is D-air spike, B-air stage spike basically guarantees no one is combing back, N-air has lingering hitbox, Tipman launching at semi-spike angle.

I legit am not relieved when Ganon misses a F-air or D-air offstage. Because I have been Tipman'd when I try to SJP to the ledge, thinking 'Oh look, he missed a D-air! I'm sa-- Oh, what the ****'.

Ganon also in general can kill people at 70-80% off-stage. Not gimping, just straight killing them to the blastzone. Not much character has his benefit on having mediumweight lag aerials (U-air and B-air, sorta F-air) while all of them deal great knockback and the angles are very generous.

Me? I hit someone 4 times with my B-air and he's still grabbing the ledge.

 

[Antonykun]

I might just be ultrabiased as a Ganon main, but I really think people seriously overestimate the difficulty of edgeguarding and seriously understate the reward. Most characters aren't going to get back from a good hit offstage, and almost none are going to be in any better of a position. If you really have to you can just keep smacking that schmuck till they die.

Oracustodiphobia (Google translate don't fail me now) is probably a result of 2 of our main top tiers (Sheik and ZSS) being near impossible to edgeguard due to having stupid, horrible, utterly overtuned long distance recoveries with lots of invincibility, especially Sheik.

I mean Sheik and ZSS aren't the only characters who are effectively impossible to edgeguard

theres also Meta Knight, Diddy (as long as he's recovering high), and maybe Marcina. To say nothing of characters who gain a lot from you botching your edgeguards like Ness and Luigi or characters that refuse to die like Villager and High Aura Lucario. Trying to edgeguard those hard to kill characters is something closer to doing survival mode rather than a main campaign where you keep on going until you lose (if that makes any sense)

At the same time I believe that people should be edgeguarding harder. Maybe that's because I main both Villager, who has little to lose from trying to edgeguard, and Swordfighter who has a wide variety of tools to edgeguard with and I'm currently playing Meta Knight who's both, at the same time. Still the ability to be able to end a stock on certain characters without BS recoveries should be enough to encourage more edguarding