Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Steelballray]

I might just be ultrabiased as a Ganon main, but I really think people seriously overestimate the difficulty of edgeguarding and seriously understate the reward. Most characters aren't going to get back from a good hit offstage, and almost none are going to be in any better of a position. If you really have to you can just keep smacking that schmuck till they die.

Oracustodiphobia (Google translate don't fail me now) is probably a result of 2 of our main top tiers (Sheik and ZSS) being near impossible to edgeguard due to having stupid, horrible, utterly overtuned long distance recoveries with lots of invincibility, especially Sheik.

As a Metaknight main (ignore what my profile says im too lazy to change that) who always chase his opponents off-stage no matter what, I agree.

Baiting airdodges ain't hard, and many aerials in the game have several active frames which make them perfect to catch them.

 

[Charoite]

Well, the thing with peach is that we haven't see much high level play of her, but i think is to soon to make a judgment of her capacities compared to the top tiers.
Although you can say that about ,,,, and other character as well.

 

[Nobie]

So today I fought for the first time a truly decent Sonic, and it made me come to realize just what's so tricky about his game plan.

First, there's the speed factor, obviously. Second, though, is that Sonic's animations are extremely deceptive and pretty much designed to feign weakness when there isn't any. Of course there's the fact that his spin attacks are incredibly similar, and that you have to pay very close attention to know which one is being used. However, there's also the fact that, when it comes to most other characters, bouncing off of a surface usually means that they're vulnerable. Think about Fox/Falco bouncing off the ground with their Up B, or Meta Knight bouncing from a Side B. When you're used to this sort of signal, Sonic feels extra aggravating because you could swear that he should be open to attack... only for him to spin away or spring away or do anything else.

Then there's the infamous hypno punch. Why does it work so often? What is it about the attack that has people run into it over and over? The answer again is that the animation is incredibly deceptive. He has this big ol' windup, and as a frame 18 attack it SHOULD be punishable much more easily, except that the windup causes his body to recoil away, and combined with his ground speed means that, in your mind you spaced it perfectly, but all Sonic has to do is move slightly away before throwing out the punch to make you feel like a fool.

Other characters have deceptive First Active Frames, but Sonic is another matter entirely. The big thing about having these confusing animations is that, even after you learn the "trick" to them, having them that way can still mess with you psychologically. It's not just that Sonic is too fast or that he excels at playing lame, but that moments you thought were yours to take turn out to be anything but, which amplifies the frustration.

 

[Megamang]

His really fast walk speed also allows him to simply walk away from you and punch your barely miss-spaced attack.

 

[Illuminose]

btw learn the timing on Sheik's up b for the one frame punish. it's easy and vulnerable as all hell if you have the timing down.

edit: when I say "easy" I mean doable, if you don't believe it's vulnerable watch Nairo fight a sheik and down smash the ledge, if sheik doesn't up b from a height above the ledge she gets hit (if you go from above the ledge there's no vulnerability frame on ledge snap). the timing to position your lingering hitboxes/w.e punishes is literally given to you, so it's less of a guess and more of an actual educated "this should hit".

also zero suit's recovery isn't invincible. you can definitely punish her tether due to its lack of invincibility.

 

[TurboLink]

btw learn the timing on Sheik's up b for the one frame punish. it's easy and vulnerable as all hell if you have the timing down.

You're joking, right?

 

[HeavyLobster]

You're joking, right?

It's doable if you have a lingering hitbox and are able to put Sheik in a situation where she's forced to Up-B to the ledge. It can be done, but it's nowhere near reliable given Sheik's recovery options that allow her to often avoid being put in that situation to begin with. It will be exploited more as time goes on, but doesn't change the fact that Sheik's recovery is really good and she's still got plenty of options. Not impossible, but gimping Sheik's still a frustrating task either way.

 

[TriTails]

Other characters have deceptive First Active Frames

...Do you mean FAF, First Actionable Frames (IASA), or the startup of the move?

And IIRC his F-smash is frame 14, and is safe on block. Yay.

 

[DunnoBro]

Back from a 58-man fest with some more notes.

In general the air dodge punish combo is pretty consistent and is pretty forgiving character/%/spacing-wise. Overall a great addition to the arsenal as a big issue of DHD's was punishing air dodges, even without killing the combo does 30-40%

But the no air dodge option is very iffy, so giving them a reason to air dodge is hard. At higher percents/faster air speed characters where uair simply can't follow up, they recognize that, and don't DJ away just DI, frisbee won't hit reliably. You can fair here, but that doesn't kill. They can pretty much choose to always eat the fair and not die, I think.

You can also short hop rising toss to catch this option, but at this point it becomes a little too iffy I think.

Option A: Punish air dodge with SH frisbee(rising on floaties, falling on fast fallers)
Option B: Punish DI AND Jump away with FH Frisbee
Option C: Punish DI and no jump with SH Frisbee
Option D: Punish Aerial challenge/bad di/fast faller with Uair.

Option B/C: Both are covered by fair but much less reward.

It's less of a 50/50 and a 25/25/25/25. This mixed in with the inherent iffiness of his hitboxes, and the somewhat strict percents these work at... I'm a little less optimistic, but I dunno it might work out. He's real good at getting grabs so maybe he just needs to keep trying until he succeeds. This would demand a different playstyle than what DHDs are used to, but Shady Penguin(dhd that topped smashcon) already proved most DHDs aren't playing the character properly. (He noted he mixed Brood's useage of fair like sheik's do and my SNS trick shots to be more and get more off being aggressive)

Ideally, DHD could play more like sheik. Get them to 90-110 easily then fish for grabs. If they go past 140, fish for edgeguards/stray hits/soft hit nair.

Duck hunt's soft hit nair is essentially dair, safe on shield and pseudo-combos into uair. Though the sweet/sourspot is very frustrating...

Overall: This may allow him to be borderline viable, but unless a good reason to air dodge is discovered vs more characters, I'm seeing this as too convoluted to push him beyond the "just viable" tier.

There is also potential in sniffing out air dodges with fade back frisbees to convert into kills, and crossing up landings with aerial frisbees too, as well as dair set-ups but... Not likely.

Xanadu monthly is tomorrow so I'm back to practicing sheik for now.

 

[Trifroze]

the ledge vulnerability is 2 frames not 1

 

[Vipermoon]

the ledge vulnerability is 2 frames not 1

You mean ledge normal get-up vulnerability? That is 2 frames. For grabbing the ledge I've only heard of it being 1 frame and it sure seems like 1 frame.

 

[Trifroze]

You mean ledge normal get-up vulnerability? That is 2 frames. For grabbing the ledge I've only heard of it being 1 frame and it sure seems like 1 frame.

The grabbing one. Everyone seems to take for granted that it's 1 despite not seeing any proof for it or testing it for themselves. Sometime during early spring I noticed it's two when checking a clip frame by frame and since then tested and confirmed it several times.

Considering it's 2 frames and there are tons of attacks with 2-5 active frames that hit there, there's no excuse to not learn to abuse this with every character who fits the description.

 

[Vipermoon]

The grabbing one. Everyone seems to take for granted that it's 1 despite not seeing any proof for it or testing it for themselves. Sometime during early spring I noticed it's two when checking a clip frame by frame and since then tested and confirmed it several times.

Considering it's 2 frames and there are tons of attacks with 2-5 active frames that hit there, there's no excuse to not learn to abuse this with every character who fits the description.

Umm okay do other people know this? Did you tell people/create proof?

 

[Lavani]

I'd be very interested in seeing proof of the second frame of the snap being vulnerable. I've been aware that snaps are two frames with the ledge grab on frame 3 for a long time now, but I haven't been able to confirm any sort of vulnerability on the second frame of the snap. When you snap to the ledge from above it's instead a 1 frame snap with the ledge grab on frame 2 and no vulnerability, which says to me "-1 frame = -100% vulnerability = 1 frame of vulnerability"

 

[Vipermoon]

I'd be very interested in seeing proof of the second frame of the snap being vulnerable. I've been aware that snaps are two frames with the ledge grab on frame 3 for a long time now, but I haven't been able to confirm any sort of vulnerability on the second frame of the snap. When you snap to the ledge from above it's instead a 1 frame snap with the ledge grab on frame 2 and no vulnerability, which says to me "-1 frame = -100% vulnerability = 1 frame of vulnerability"

You're saying grabbing from above has no ledge snap vulnerability? What about sideways?

 

[Trifroze]

I showed it in a Falcon montage I made back then, but perhaps people shrugged it off. I'll make a more conclusive video about it tomorrow.

 

[Ghostbone]

I highly doubt it's 2 frames, can't claim I know for sure but 2 frame windows are like 5x easier than 1 frame windows, people would have learnt to punish ledge snaps reliably by now if that was the case.

Sheik's is a lot easier to punish than other characters because the timing is always consistent when she up-b's from far enough away though.

 

[Lavani]

You're saying grabbing from above has no ledge snap vulnerability? What about sideways?

If you're above the ledge at all when snapping to it, you're invincible. Doesn't matter if it's directly above or a diagonal.

Spoiler: old gifs

Demonstration with Falco Phase and Farore's Wind:

 

[Vipermoon]

Thanks Lavani

I highly doubt it's 2 frames, can't claim I know for sure but 2 frame windows are like 5x easier than 1 frame windows, people would have learnt to punish ledge snaps reliably by now if that was the case.

These were my exact thoughts but I guess we'll find out soon.

 

[Nobie]

...Do you mean FAF, First Actionable Frames (IASA), or the startup of the move?

And IIRC his F-smash is frame 14, and is safe on block. Yay.

First Actionable Frame. According to Kurogane Hammer it hits frames 18-20.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@ wedl!!

Just in case you care about it, I think Wario vs Peach is even.

Wario has a lot of evenish matchups in general.

 

[HFlash]

So I finally got around to watching the Beefy Smash Dudes' latest video. I thought the "fact" they presented about Bowser Jr. about him receiving less percent on hit if he is hit on the Koopa device as opposed to his face was really interesting. Does this difference also apply to KB?

 

[Jamurai]

So I finally got around to watching the Beefy Smash Dudes' latest video. I thought the "fact" they presented about Bowser Jr. about him receiving less percent on hit if he is hit on the Koopa device as opposed to his face was really interesting. Does this difference also apply to KB?

I believe KB is affected by how much damage the move does to the target, so it should affect KB as well.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

The grabbing one. Everyone seems to take for granted that it's 1 despite not seeing any proof for it or testing it for themselves. Sometime during early spring I noticed it's two when checking a clip frame by frame and since then tested and confirmed it several times.

Considering it's 2 frames and there are tons of attacks with 2-5 active frames that hit there, there's no excuse to not learn to abuse this with every character who fits the description.

I think the issue is that people dont know what to aim for. You actually have to try and hit further below the ledge than you would think, which could be why people miss it.

 

[TDK]

Did some playing around with . On big Characters like DeDeDe, Bowser, and DK, Star Bits into F-Smash works very well.

Other than that, is any character's worst matchup? I did some looking around, and it doesn't look like it.

 

[wedl!!]

Fox gets wrecked by her.

Or, rather, Luma destroys Fox.

 

[juddy96]

With all this Peach talk, I'll note that Kie got top 8 at Sumabato 5 today. He was eliminated by J! and Earth.

 

[Djent]

Kie is back! (Sumabato 5 content)

Some vs. stuff:
-From the amount of times Luma got smacked around, I thought I was watching Mario Tennis. Dair (see: opening gambit game 1) and especially fair are devastating.
-Peach's float can be devastating to a Rosa trying to recover low. Kie just waited for Ikep to come hurling forward without a hitbox and painlessly intercepted him.
-Kie still died a lot to uair strings. Peach's airdodge isn't garbage like it was in Brawl, but it's not great and that + her floatiness does seem like a problem in this MU.

 

[K3H]

You onow who I found surprisingly easy to deal with Peach? Lucas. His Zair and PK Fire shut down her float, and open her up to follow ups. He doesn't really have have to worry too much about being edge guarded either, since he can come back from literally anywhere. So he can just go low, and make it back. Not to mention his tether. Her turnip shenanigans also aren't reliable, since Lucas has a reasonably fast reflector. Sure Peach could try and approach by floating a little higher than ground level, but Utilt, Usmash, and PK Freeze shut those options down. Or straight up Nairing or Dairing for a surprise. Lucas also hits pretty hard. He'd have no trouble killing her, especially since he has 3 kill throws, a set up out of one, a really hard hitting Dmash, and a quick Fsmash.

 

[Deleted member]

You onow who I found surprisingly easy to deal with Peach? Lucas. His Zair and PK Fire shut down her float, and open her up to follow ups. He doesn't really have have to worry too much about being edge guarded either, since he can come back from literally anywhere. So he can just go low, and make it back. Not to mention his tether. Her turnip shenanigans also aren't reliable, since Lucas has a reasonably fast reflector. Sure Peach could try and approach by floating a little higher than ground level, but Utilt, Usmash, and PK Freeze shut those options down. Or straight up Nairing or Dairing for a surprise. Lucas also hits pretty hard. He'd have no trouble killing her, especially since he has 3 kill throws, a set up out of one, a really hard hitting Dmash, and a quick Fsmash.

PSI Magnet does not work on Turnips.

 

[Planty]

PSI Magnet does not work on Turnips.

Quite sure that he meant F-smash...

 

[K3H]

PSI Magnet does not work on Turnips.

It's not a reflector anyway. Fsmash is.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth deals with Peach. He can usually stuff her approaches and even contest her in air-to-air. It's the combination of long disjoints and very low start-up. Peach doesn't like that.

 

[Deleted member]

Quite sure that he meant F-smash...

It's not a reflector anyway. Fsmash is.

That makes more sense, I always forget that F-smash reflects. Using it to do so is risky though. You're going to get hit by the projectile if your timing is off. The move is only active for 2 frames.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Kie is back! (Sumabato 5 content)

Some vs. stuff:
-From the amount of times Luma got smacked around, I thought I was watching Mario Tennis. Dair (see: opening gambit game 1) and especially fair are devastating.
-Peach's float can be devastating to a Rosa trying to recover low. Kie just waited for Ikep to come hurling forward without a hitbox and painlessly intercepted him.
-Kie still died a lot to uair strings. Peach's airdodge isn't garbage like it was in Brawl, but it's not great and that + her floatiness does seem like a problem in this MU.

This set is a sterling example of how to deal with Luma and highlights how its vulnerable even when Rosalina shields. That Peach was relentless.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Marth deals with Peach. He can usually stuff her approaches and even contest her in air-to-air. It's the combination of long disjoints and very low start-up. Peach doesn't like that.

In general characters who can effectively stuff aerial approaches handle Peach well. Ganondorf would beat her if he wasn't total combo/gimp food.

 

[Vipermoon]

In general characters who can effectively stuff aerial approaches handle Peach well. Ganondorf would beat her if he wasn't total combo/gimp food.

Yeah same reason why Marth destroys Jiggs. His whole moveset is anti-airs.

 

[ShadowKing]

Sonics best match ups?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Sonics best match ups?

Basically any character I play. He can run away from the fatties forever and they can only touch him with a hard read.

 

[Megamang]

Basically any character I play. He can run away from the fatties forever and they can only touch him with a hard read.

This basically. He is at least close to a lot of characters worst MU, as there is a group of slower chars with poor neutral tools which basically get circles walked around them by the best speedy characters.