Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[san.]

Question: For those who advocate for customs, what's your stance on size regulation of miis? I do not understand why mii's should be allowed to have size variations for customs tourney. That is not a moveset change. That changes ground/air mobility, combos, and weight. I believe only regular size should be legal.

And just so people know: Only small mii can kill you at 0 with dthrow>fair>up b.

Not broken. Comboing them is similar. It's harder for the Mii's to be good at multiple sizes. Only ban sizes that are banworthy to broken. Optimal size isn't set in stone due to meta game changes.

 

[Speed Boost]

I agree with the sentiment that the Mii Fighters are "custom characters". However, I do think it makes sense to limit Miis to their default size in a tournament where customs are not enabled. I wouldn't ever limit their move sets though. There is no reason to since Smash mode allows any combination of moves without enabling customs.

In a customs enabled tournaments I would allow sizes other that default. I think we are selling ourselves short if we don't make things easier for players who want to main these characters. The more good characters the better, right? Why ever limit their move sets?

 

[Wintropy]

I think it's worth mentioning that Mii Fighters have no restrictions on their size in the default game. You can freely customise your Mii's height and weight as you see fit - there's no "you must be this tall to ride" proviso in any mode.

Just to point out that the "Miis are allowed to use any moveset in any mode" argument doesn't really apply to size, since as far as the game is concerned, the core value is the same. You can't cite in-game example as a vindication of this rule ("customs should be enabled for Miis as this is how they function in-game") and then disregard it for that rule ("size should be regulated for Miis even though this is different to how they function in-game").

I can respect the reasons behind regulating Mii size in a default context, especially from a logistical perspective (I think the issue of balance is muddy water, but that's a debate for another time). I just disagree with this logical double-standard.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Miis should probably be default size if their size affects stats

 

[Yikarur]

in a Custom: Off Metagame only default size Mii should be allowed because they don't need any outside resources. Every WiiU has the same 6 Guest Mii's. Thats how germany handles Mii's. (with free moveset choice of course)

 

[Speed Boost]

in a Custom: Off Metagame only default size Mii should be allowed because they don't need any outside resources. Every WiiU has the same 6 Guest Mii's. Thats how germany handles Mii's. (with free moveset choice of course)

This is a good point for why they should be default size no matter what. Time and logistics. It's really fast to make a default size guest Mii from the character select screen. You don't have to preload every setup with a ton of different Miis like you have to when different sizes are being used.

edit: I guess it's not that hard to add a small and large Mii to each setup, that can then be used to create any Mii Fighter, but if someone wants a tall/thin or a medium/thin you start needing to add more and more.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

We should probably bring the discussion back to competitive impressions.
So I'm sure we've all seen the Peach death combo that Mysmashcorner made a video on but that got me thinking. Has anyone mastered anything like that yet? For example, who remembers the Megaman Jump cancel glide toss combo? The one that goes across the stage? Is anyone on that level yet?

And now that I think about it what happened to that one Megaman tech where you throw the blade up and he slid pretty much across FD? Was it patched out?

 

[san.]

Not broken. Comboing them is similar. It's harder for the Mii's to be good at multiple sizes. Only ban sizes that are banworthy to broken. Optimal size isn't set in stone due to meta game changes.

Whoops I worded that poorly. I meant that it's hard to be good at playing as multiple sizes. The timings for everything you do varies, though the general gameplan is similar. I think if the player can't set up their mii in 3 minutes, the TO has the right to just make them choose something. If I certain Mii and size are banworthy, only those size and special combinations should be banned. I'd hesitantly accept Default size Miis with the choice of specials if a compromise is needed, but I'd definitely be salty.

Also, about performance, Ryuga got 3rd the tournament he went to, below a Luigi/Wario and Rosalina player. Not sure how many people were there, but LOE1 and Rayquaza are national level players.

If this counts as well, I went to ~50 man local that had customs on, but I used default Ike for the last 1/3 of the tournament since I wasn't too comfortable with the customs performance I was having and got 1st over custom Pikachu, Sonic/Sheik, and Mario. The Pikachu and Sonic/Sheik are regional-level players at least.

Also, I got the Ike dthrow->footstool at least once a set most of the time. It's actually better than I thought it was going to be.

 

[outfoxd]

We should probably bring the discussion back to competitive impressions.
So I'm sure we've all seen the Peach death combo that Mysmashcorner made a video on but that got me thinking. Has anyone mastered anything like that yet? For example, who remembers the Megaman Jump cancel glide toss combo? The one that goes across the stage? Is anyone on that level yet?

And now that I think about it what happened to that one Megaman tech where you throw the blade up and he slid pretty much across FD? Was it patched out?

Smasher from our scene was using the glide toss this month so that's alive and well.

 

[BSP]

Speaking of Pac, he's decent but Rosalina shuts him down so badly it hurts. Even Abadango knows and why he refuses to use Pac Man against her. Also can't Villager pocket Pac Man's fruit or hydrant and he loses that tool for good?

Dabuz said he thinks the MU is 60:40. Rayquaza told me he thinks it's 55:45, which is 60:40 to me. I think it's 60:40. Rosalina wins, but "shut down" is quite the overstatement.

 

[san.]

We should probably bring the discussion back to competitive impressions.
So I'm sure we've all seen the Peach death combo that Mysmashcorner made a video on but that got me thinking. Has anyone mastered anything like that yet? For example, who remembers the Megaman Jump cancel glide toss combo? The one that goes across the stage? Is anyone on that level yet?

And now that I think about it what happened to that one Megaman tech where you throw the blade up and he slid pretty much across FD? Was it patched out?

Ike can DACIT and it goes the farthest in the game, but it's so flippin hard to DACIT it forward in this game compared to Brawl. I tried for like 20 minutes straight once and I'm still not consistent.

 

[Pazx]

Here's a common mindset shared by many:

I agree with the sentiment that the Mii Fighters are "custom characters". However, I do think it makes sense to limit Miis to their default size in a tournament where customs are not enabled. I wouldn't ever limit their move sets though. There is no reason to since Smash mode allows any combination of moves without enabling customs.

In a customs enabled tournaments I would allow sizes other that default. I think we are selling ourselves short if we don't make things easier for players who want to main these characters. The more good characters the better, right? Why ever limit their move sets?

in a Custom: Off Metagame only default size Mii should be allowed because they don't need any outside resources. Every WiiU has the same 6 Guest Mii's. Thats how germany handles Mii's. (with free moveset choice of course)

ie. "Default size only in non-customs"

This is a statement I'm inclined to agree with, but for the life of me I can't see the logic behind it. Keeping Miis at default size only is mostly due to "feels", about how it gives them an advantage in the same manner that custom moves give other characters advantages, about how good tiny Mii Brawler is, about logistical issues. The most logical ruling on Miis (in my opinion) would be something like "Mii Fighters may be any size and use any moveset but exiting the game to create a Mii is banned/punishable by death" ie. 3DS uploads or pre-made Miis are required, otherwise you're using default.

Are we afraid of tiny Mii Brawler to the point that we are limiting these characters in default? What does it say about our attitudes towards customs that we say "this character that is TOO GOOD for the default meta is okay when other characters can use their custom moves"? Is there a logical reason to require Mii Fighters to use a default size in the non-custom meta, or is that ruling based in laziness? Is Tiny Mii Brawler bannable in it's own right?

 

[san.]

Here's a common mindset shared by many:





ie. "Default size only in non-customs"

This is a statement I'm inclined to agree with, but for the life of me I can't see the logic behind it. Keeping Miis at default size only is mostly due to "feels", about how it gives them an advantage in the same manner that custom moves give other characters advantages, about how good tiny Mii Brawler is, about logistical issues. The most logical ruling on Miis (in my opinion) would be something like "Mii Fighters may be any size and use any moveset but exiting the game to create a Mii is banned/punishable by death" eg. 3DS uploads or pre-made Miis are required, otherwise you're using default.

Are we afraid of tiny Mii Brawler to the point that we are limiting these characters in default? What does it say about our attitudes towards customs that we say "this character that is TOO GOOD for the default meta is okay when other characters can use their custom moves"? Is there a logical reason to require Mii Fighters to use a default size in the non-custom meta, or is that ruling based in laziness? Is Tiny Mii Brawler bannable in it's own right?

My thoughts exactly. I believe that people are just dancing around this issue. Small gunner and swordfighter are barely at Mario levels of movement speed. Small gunner just has better mobility, small swordfighter has better run speed, and both have worse reach and frame data than Mario, which says a lot. Gunner has to be used creatively, due to a lack of autocombos. Many players haven't explored quite a few dangerous setups available to gunner, but gunner has to be fast enough to follow up. Small swordfighter still has quite the good dtilt, but he lacks that frame 2-4 move to supplement the frame 5 dtilt. Swordfighter has to use the dtilt as his jab most of the time. Swordfighter also has trouble following up from dtilt and dthrow at default size. The worse air speed really hinders swordfighter's ability to rush down, even when small. Swordfighter is greatly aided by strong general skills, though, since he does have quite a few autocombos and his attacks have unique quirks.

 

[Speed Boost]

Here's a common mindset shared by many:





ie. "Default size only in non-customs"

This is a statement I'm inclined to agree with, but for the life of me I can't see the logic behind it. Keeping Miis at default size only is mostly due to "feels", about how it gives them an advantage in the same manner that custom moves give other characters advantages, about how good tiny Mii Brawler is, about logistical issues. The most logical ruling on Miis (in my opinion) would be something like "Mii Fighters may be any size and use any moveset but exiting the game to create a Mii is banned/punishable by death" eg. 3DS uploads or pre-made Miis are required, otherwise you're using default.

Are we afraid of tiny Mii Brawler to the point that we are limiting these characters in default? What does it say about our attitudes towards customs that we say "this character that is TOO GOOD for the default meta is okay when other characters can use their custom moves"? Is there a logical reason to require Mii Fighters to use a default size in the non-custom meta, or is that ruling based in laziness? Is Tiny Mii Brawler bannable in it's own right?

For me it has nothing to do with how good they are with a different size. I just see more TOs being cool with a rule set that requires less from them. If every TO was cool with a unified Mii rule set that allows all sizes I'm cool with that. I'm cool with all default too.

I just want to see all their moves available to them customs or no customs. That is the most important thing to me. If size is going to be a deal breaker for some id rather not fight that battle.

 

[Ikes]

decided to put together a rough tier list of my opinions

lets go over some reasoning here, though.

1. Greninja:

I didn't much base this off of theorycraft or conjecture from this thread or educated guessing but rather results. Greninja is clearly a strong character and those who say he;s just "shiek but worse" get on my nerves. He's been used very well by aMSa, placing well at Apex 2015 and he has not been nerfed since. He's shown that he's a very capable fighter and his toolset is not apparently lacking.

2. Wario:

A lot of people would put Wario much lower than this, which I personally don't understand. In a game that so heavily rewards defensive play, being a character that so easily challenges defensive play is a phenomenal advantage. His frame data is superb on everything outside his smash attacks, his kill power is among some of the best in the game, having one of the most potent OHKO-type moves as well as many setups into it and other kill setups otherwise. He's also been shown to have the ability to place high in tournaments (Abadango got 8th at Apex using Pac-Man and Wario interchangeably and 4th at EVO using mostly Wario).

3. Diddy Kong:

ZeRo has shown us that he's clearly still a contender for top eight. He may have been nerfed twice but that doesnt mean much when he's still such a phenomenal fighter.

4. Lucas:

He's good, he's very good. He's got the tools to be used on his own (without secondaries) but he's only just lacking that puts him in A-. He's clearly a capable fighter with very good projectile game and his KO power is nothing short of great. Throws, Sweetspot aerials, Uair, and the setups he has into these are all good and apparent. Again, nothing amazing or fantastical, but clearly a capable fighter with a capable toolset.

5. Mewtwo:

Some of you might say "Mewtwo isnt bottom ten! he's not THAT bad" and you're right on one part: he isn't that bad. But comparatively, this entire game is fairly well balanced and in the long run every character is fairly "good", he just so happens to be one of the worst out of the good characters.

 

[wm1026]

decided to put together a rough tier list of my opinions

lets go over some reasoning here, though.

1. Greninja:

I didn't much base this off of theorycraft or conjecture from this thread or educated guessing but rather results. Greninja is clearly a strong character and those who say he;s just "shiek but worse" get on my nerves. He's been used very well by aMSa, placing well at Apex 2015 and he has not been nerfed since. He's shown that he's a very capable fighter and his toolset is not apparently lacking.

2. Wario:

A lot of people would put Wario much lower than this, which I personally don't understand. In a game that so heavily rewards defensive play, being a character that so easily challenges defensive play is a phenomenal advantage. His frame data is superb on everything outside his smash attacks, his kill power is among some of the best in the game, having one of the most potent OHKO-type moves as well as many setups into it and other kill setups otherwise. He's also been shown to have the ability to place high in tournaments (Abadango got 8th at Apex using Pac-Man and Wario interchangeably and 4th at EVO using mostly Wario).

3. Diddy Kong:

ZeRo has shown us that he's clearly still a contender for top eight. He may have been nerfed twice but that doesnt mean much when he's still such a phenomenal fighter.

4. Lucas:

He's good, he's very good. He's got the tools to be used on his own (without secondaries) but he's only just lacking that puts him in A-. He's clearly a capable fighter with very good projectile game and his KO power is nothing short of great. Throws, Sweetspot aerials, Uair, and the setups he has into these are all good and apparent. Again, nothing amazing or fantastical, but clearly a capable fighter with a capable toolset.

5. Mewtwo:

Some of you might say "Mewtwo isnt bottom ten! he's not THAT bad" and you're right on one part: he isn't that bad. But comparatively, this entire game is fairly well balanced and in the long run every character is fairly "good", he just so happens to be one of the worst out of the good characters.

I can't believe I am saying this but Yoshi is to low to me. He should at the very least be in A tier. I would personally put him between Fox and MK.

EDIT: I will say that I like your Charizard placement

 

[Seagull Joe]

decided to put together a rough tier list of my opinions

lets go over some reasoning here, though.

1. Greninja:

I didn't much base this off of theorycraft or conjecture from this thread or educated guessing but rather results. Greninja is clearly a strong character and those who say he;s just "shiek but worse" get on my nerves. He's been used very well by aMSa, placing well at Apex 2015 and he has not been nerfed since. He's shown that he's a very capable fighter and his toolset is not apparently lacking.

2. Wario:

A lot of people would put Wario much lower than this, which I personally don't understand. In a game that so heavily rewards defensive play, being a character that so easily challenges defensive play is a phenomenal advantage. His frame data is superb on everything outside his smash attacks, his kill power is among some of the best in the game, having one of the most potent OHKO-type moves as well as many setups into it and other kill setups otherwise. He's also been shown to have the ability to place high in tournaments (Abadango got 8th at Apex using Pac-Man and Wario interchangeably and 4th at EVO using mostly Wario).

3. Diddy Kong:

ZeRo has shown us that he's clearly still a contender for top eight. He may have been nerfed twice but that doesnt mean much when he's still such a phenomenal fighter.

4. Lucas:

He's good, he's very good. He's got the tools to be used on his own (without secondaries) but he's only just lacking that puts him in A-. He's clearly a capable fighter with very good projectile game and his KO power is nothing short of great. Throws, Sweetspot aerials, Uair, and the setups he has into these are all good and apparent. Again, nothing amazing or fantastical, but clearly a capable fighter with a capable toolset.

5. Mewtwo:

Some of you might say "Mewtwo isnt bottom ten! he's not THAT bad" and you're right on one part: he isn't that bad. But comparatively, this entire game is fairly well balanced and in the long run every character is fairly "good", he just so happens to be one of the worst out of the good characters.

is NOT as good as or . I don't even think belongs in the same tier as either.

 

[Ikes]

is NOT as good as or . I don't even think belongs in the same tier as either.

never said he was, but he's clearly significantly better than the rest of the cast so it's logical to put him in S.

I can't believe I am saying this but Yoshi is to low to me. He should at the very least be in A tier. I would personally put him between Fox and MK.

EDIT: I will say that I like your Charizard placement

I based my yoshi placement almost entirely on results. Sure he's good, even great, but he has pretty much no placings in any tournament. Once Yoshi starts placing high in tournaments, we can talk.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Bowser shouldn't be that low (he has some bad weaknesses, but he can kill earlier than Ganon off of reads and has a faster command grab than him. Also fire breath).
Luigi needs to flip flop with ZSS (ZSS actually has a flexible mid range game with mobility, paralyzer, Nair, Uair, side b, and Zair. Luigi has fireballs..... And that's it. Luigi beats ZSS in terms of reward off of grab, but it doesn't matter; ZSS gets better reward off of anything else. She also doesn't get counter picked by random characters).
Pikachu needs to exit the s tier (pika is obviously good. But, is he above the other top tiers? I don't think so, but I don't know the character that well either). My thoughts on that tier list.
I see minor things that I disagree with, but they're minor, so it don't matter too much.

 

[Ikes]

Bowser shouldn't be that low (he has some bad weaknesses, but he can kill earlier than Ganon off of reads and has a faster command grab than him. Also fire breath).
Luigi needs to flip flop with ZSS (ZSS actually has a flexible mid range game with mobility, paralyzer, Nair, Uair, side b, and Zair. Luigi has fireballs..... And that's it. Luigi beats ZSS in terms of reward off of grab, but it doesn't matter; ZSS gets better reward off of anything else. She also doesn't get counter picked by random characters).
Pikachu needs to exit the s tier (pika is obviously good. But, is he above the other top tiers? I don't think so, but I don't know the character that well either). My thoughts on that tier list.
I see minor things that I disagree with, but they're minor, so it don't matter too much.

I'm honestly not so sure about Zero Suit Samus though. Could just be me but I dont see her being as high as people say. No real reason, just impressions.

I do think Pikachu is above the other top tiers, he's comparable to sheik in that he's got strengths in every important area (and considerably similar or better kill power than sheik, albeit all her other strong points are noticeably less). Not quite as good as Rosalina, but Pikachu is a character that can compete with pretty much anyone.

also bowser suffers from the issues the other heavies have but he doesnt quite match them in terms of kill power or frame data. Donkey kong is a heavy that has considerably decent frame data (especially his phenomenal tilts and bair) and Charizard isnt as good in terms of frame data, but his KO power is probably the best of any heavy. Bowser has both of these, but not to the same extent, and it's honestly better to have one or the other instead of half of both if you ask me. Unless you're sheik, where you have everything.

 

[TriTails]

She also doesn't get counter picked by random characters).

...Luigi doesn't.

Unless you count Sheik a 'random' character. Even then, Luigi vs Sheik tend to be overhyped IMO.

 

[Speed Boost]

decided to put together a rough tier list of my opinions

lets go over some reasoning here, though.

1. Greninja:

I didn't much base this off of theorycraft or conjecture from this thread or educated guessing but rather results. Greninja is clearly a strong character and those who say he;s just "shiek but worse" get on my nerves. He's been used very well by aMSa, placing well at Apex 2015 and he has not been nerfed since. He's shown that he's a very capable fighter and his toolset is not apparently lacking.

2. Wario:

A lot of people would put Wario much lower than this, which I personally don't understand. In a game that so heavily rewards defensive play, being a character that so easily challenges defensive play is a phenomenal advantage. His frame data is superb on everything outside his smash attacks, his kill power is among some of the best in the game, having one of the most potent OHKO-type moves as well as many setups into it and other kill setups otherwise. He's also been shown to have the ability to place high in tournaments (Abadango got 8th at Apex using Pac-Man and Wario interchangeably and 4th at EVO using mostly Wario).

3. Diddy Kong:

ZeRo has shown us that he's clearly still a contender for top eight. He may have been nerfed twice but that doesnt mean much when he's still such a phenomenal fighter.

4. Lucas:

He's good, he's very good. He's got the tools to be used on his own (without secondaries) but he's only just lacking that puts him in A-. He's clearly a capable fighter with very good projectile game and his KO power is nothing short of great. Throws, Sweetspot aerials, Uair, and the setups he has into these are all good and apparent. Again, nothing amazing or fantastical, but clearly a capable fighter with a capable toolset.

5. Mewtwo:

Some of you might say "Mewtwo isnt bottom ten! he's not THAT bad" and you're right on one part: he isn't that bad. But comparatively, this entire game is fairly well balanced and in the long run every character is fairly "good", he just so happens to be one of the worst out of the good characters.

Probably no surprise that I think the Pits are a little low. Aside from Nairo they haven't seen a lot of top level results, but that could be said for many of the characters you have in front of them as well.

They have better than average speed that is supplemented by their crazy fast disjointed dash attack. We all know how great their grab game is. Down throw combos into up air until 90ish % depending on the MU. They have traps with arrows into up smash and forward smash. Oh, and they have a kill throw, and it's forward throw at that.

They do an excellent job at beating shield and punishing in general. They may not have any possitive MUs against the top tiers but there aren't really any terrible ones either.

Looking at your list I would put them ahead of Meta Knight, Wario, Pacman, Mega Man, Peach, Lucas, Greninja, Roy, Ryu and Olimar.

I think Nario's body of work alone shows the strength of the Pits.

 

[Nu~]

@ Ikes
If you based greninja's position off of results...then why is he so high? Please tell me of the grand accomplishments that aMSa has made outside of Apex

 

[C0rvus]

decided to put together a rough tier list of my opinions

Just random thoughts on this list:
~Pikachu isn't that strong, I think Sonic is better than him at least.
~This is customs on I assume, because I doubt that Miis should even have a place on a customs-off tier list at the moment. We don't even know how they exist in a non-customs meta.
~I personally think that Mewtwo and Ganondorf should be right next to each other. They fulfill the same role but I think Mewtwo is slightly better at it in some ways.
~Ryu seems ambitiously high. I feel like from what we know so far, he doesn't seem like an A tier character.
~I want to defend the fact that Bowser should be higher, but I can't rationalize it.
~Zero Suit should be a little higher imo. She has good theory and great results.
~Luigi is overrated. Mario is underrated. Swap their spots and they are better imo.

Tier lists are such fickle things. Making lower tiers accurate is like the most mind-bending task. A decent list as far as I can tell. We seem to be reaching a general consensus for who is good and who isn't at least.

 

[Ikes]

Just random thoughts on this list:
~Pikachu isn't that strong, I think Sonic is better than him at least.
~This is customs on I assume, because I doubt that Miis should even have a place on a customs-off tier list at the moment. We don't even know how they exist in a non-customs meta.
~I personally think that Mewtwo and Ganondorf should be right next to each other. They fulfill the same role but I think Mewtwo is slightly better at it in some ways.
~Ryu seems ambitiously high. I feel like from what we know so far, he doesn't seem like an A tier character.
~I want to defend the fact that Bowser should be higher, but I can't rationalize it.
~Zero Suit should be a little higher imo. She has good theory and great results.
~Luigi is overrated. Mario is underrated. Swap their spots and they are better imo.

Tier lists are such fickle things. Making lower tiers accurate is like the most mind-bending task. A decent list as far as I can tell. We seem to be reaching a general consensus for who is good and who isn't at least.

this is customs off, shouldve mentioned

also Mario is by no means better than Luigi, Luigi is clearly the better of the brothers

 

[C0rvus]

this is customs off, shouldve mentioned

also Mario is by no means better than Luigi, Luigi is clearly the better of the brothers

I disagree, Luigi has actual soft counters. Mario has a much more stable MU spread, which I think makes him a better character.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I'm honestly not so sure about Zero Suit Samus though. Could just be me but I dont see her being as high as people say. No real reason, just impressions.

I do think Pikachu is above the other top tiers, he's comparable to sheik in that he's got strengths in every important area (and considerably similar or better kill power than sheik, albeit all her other strong points are noticeably less). Not quite as good as Rosalina, but Pikachu is a character that can compete with pretty much anyone.

also bowser suffers from the issues the other heavies have but he doesnt quite match them in terms of kill power or frame data. Donkey kong is a heavy that has considerably decent frame data (especially his phenomenal tilts and bair) and Charizard isnt as good in terms of frame data, but his KO power is probably the best of any heavy. Bowser has both of these, but not to the same extent, and it's honestly better to have one or the other instead of half of both if you ask me. Unless you're sheik, where you have everything.

Bowser is stronger than every other heavy overall (I think he has the strongest set of smashes in the game besides little Mac and smash shulk not to mention very wry damaging tilts and aerials) and his frame data isn't even bad (nothing's overly slow). It's the range in his tilts that can prove bothersome, but that's cool when you deal as much as much damage as bowser per hit. Besides, fire breath>tilts in footsies.
And if DK is frame days and Xard KO power, what's Ganon? Because bowser already has command grab.

 

[FullMoon]

It's always funny when people place Greninja higher on tier lists than I do.

 

[Speed Boost]

To me the cast is so balanced it's hard to fathom saying who is 40th vs who is 41st. I think of the roster more in groups without any order.

Group A:

Group A: The characters with a steady supply of good options. In general they have good ground speed, movement options and aerial mobility. These characters have multiple top tier tools in their kits. They also have few glaring weaknesses. They have good speed, frame data, grab combos, kill throws, and amazing specials.

Group B:

Group B: This group is comprised of all arounders and the tragically flawed. Many of these characters have average ground speed, movement options and aerial mobility. In general these characters are able to punish shield with guaranteed grab combos or kill throws or and in many cases they can do both. Then there are characters like Little Mac and Lucario who are insanely strong, but are also held back by their design.

Group C:

Group C: Many of these characters have redeeming elements, but they lack consistently good options. In many cases poor ground speed, movement options and aerial mobility are to blame. Others lack guaranteed grab combos or kill throws and struggle to punish shield as a result. Then there are those who have poor frame data, lacking solid boxing or OOS options.

 

[migul]

Ike can DACIT and it goes the farthest in the game, but it's so flippin hard to DACIT it forward in this game compared to Brawl. I tried for like 20 minutes straight once and I'm still not consistent.

What's that?

 

[Nu~]

What's that?

http://youtu.be/eMwqkGxDRhU
You can do it with Pac-man and Link as well

 

[Zage]

decided to put together a rough tier list of my opinions

Ryu at A Tier? What is the reasoning behind this? Having QCF and DP movements doesn't automatically translate to being high tier. All of Ryu's approach options are mega unsafe, and when he does get in he doesn't stay in for very long.

 

[migul]

http://youtu.be/eMwqkGxDRhU
You can do it with Pac-man and Link as well

So Ike has the Farthest Super glide toss?

 

[Smog Frog]

decided to put together a rough tier list of my opinions

lets go over some reasoning here, though.

1. Greninja:

I didn't much base this off of theorycraft or conjecture from this thread or educated guessing but rather results. Greninja is clearly a strong character and those who say he;s just "shiek but worse" get on my nerves. He's been used very well by aMSa, placing well at Apex 2015 and he has not been nerfed since. He's shown that he's a very capable fighter and his toolset is not apparently lacking.

2. Wario:

A lot of people would put Wario much lower than this, which I personally don't understand. In a game that so heavily rewards defensive play, being a character that so easily challenges defensive play is a phenomenal advantage. His frame data is superb on everything outside his smash attacks, his kill power is among some of the best in the game, having one of the most potent OHKO-type moves as well as many setups into it and other kill setups otherwise. He's also been shown to have the ability to place high in tournaments (Abadango got 8th at Apex using Pac-Man and Wario interchangeably and 4th at EVO using mostly Wario).

3. Diddy Kong:

ZeRo has shown us that he's clearly still a contender for top eight. He may have been nerfed twice but that doesnt mean much when he's still such a phenomenal fighter.

4. Lucas:

He's good, he's very good. He's got the tools to be used on his own (without secondaries) but he's only just lacking that puts him in A-. He's clearly a capable fighter with very good projectile game and his KO power is nothing short of great. Throws, Sweetspot aerials, Uair, and the setups he has into these are all good and apparent. Again, nothing amazing or fantastical, but clearly a capable fighter with a capable toolset.

5. Mewtwo:

Some of you might say "Mewtwo isnt bottom ten! he's not THAT bad" and you're right on one part: he isn't that bad. But comparatively, this entire game is fairly well balanced and in the long run every character is fairly "good", he just so happens to be one of the worst out of the good characters.

i demand an explanation as to why is at the top of a tier(and in front of )

 

[shane3x]

Thought personal tier lists were banned?

 

[Pyr]

OT tier lists disrupt discussion so, so much. Lol. Went from decent discussion to "I disagree!" and "why?" quality level posts.

 

[Ikes]

I disagree, Luigi has actual soft counters. Mario has a much more stable MU spread, which I think makes him a better character.

but this means that all of mario's matchups will still be an unphill battle, whereas luigi has a much easier time in his good matchups and doesnt have many glaringly bad matchups beyond a couple 60:40's against.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

but this means that all of mario's matchups will still be an unphill battle, whereas luigi has a much easier time in his good matchups and doesnt have many glaringly bad matchups beyond a couple 60:40's against.

Pretty sure Mario beats a lot of characters and has slight disadvantages vs top tiers. Luigi has a vetter recovery than Mario and Usmash but Mario has the mobility. So I can really see a MU Luigi out performs Mario in.

 

[Luco]

It might be selfish, but a part of me actually prefers the "why" comments after a tier list post.

If someone comes in here and says "Hey guys what do we think about 's viability?" Chances are very few people can answer, often quoting a very specific set of ideas and issues that have already been brought up before numerous times. In this case, I'm going to bet the majority of people will say comments such as "She's really good but doesn't see enough high level play to warrant a better placing." Or "Has some of her old issues from Brawl (Mostly because float Fair stales now yay patches)."

Then the discussion slows down, a few peach mains come in, comment on the specifics of the subject, talk about Peach's technicality and special snowflake syndrome and MUs and then we move on.

What has that discussion accomplished for most people? Literally an update on where Peach stands, and usually we already knew enough to say that. Most people won't even comment because it's not relevant for them.

A tier list post is thread-inclusive. Every poster gets to see how someone views their character. Then, when that person is questioned, it forces the poster to come up with evidence themselves, which is actually quite engaging. Results can be pulled up, or at the very least least the reasoning can be discussed. Tier list posts can involve everyone, most likely because everyone enjoys talking about their own characters (even the top tier posters do - look at Shaya's common references to ZSS, Thinkaman often citing Ness, Solidsense talking Pikachu... it's not a bad thing to enjoy doing ) and it gives them a chance to study someone else's perception on their character, as well as other characters (If I saw Mario in a really low spot on a random tier list, I'd most likely enjoy discussing that too).

I've always wondered why I love seeing tier list posts on this thread while everyone else condemns it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

decided to put together a rough tier list of my opinions

lets go over some reasoning here, though.

1. Greninja:

I didn't much base this off of theorycraft or conjecture from this thread or educated guessing but rather results. Greninja is clearly a strong character and those who say he;s just "shiek but worse" get on my nerves. He's been used very well by aMSa, placing well at Apex 2015 and he has not been nerfed since. He's shown that he's a very capable fighter and his toolset is not apparently lacking.

2. Wario:

A lot of people would put Wario much lower than this, which I personally don't understand. In a game that so heavily rewards defensive play, being a character that so easily challenges defensive play is a phenomenal advantage. His frame data is superb on everything outside his smash attacks, his kill power is among some of the best in the game, having one of the most potent OHKO-type moves as well as many setups into it and other kill setups otherwise. He's also been shown to have the ability to place high in tournaments (Abadango got 8th at Apex using Pac-Man and Wario interchangeably and 4th at EVO using mostly Wario).

3. Diddy Kong:

ZeRo has shown us that he's clearly still a contender for top eight. He may have been nerfed twice but that doesnt mean much when he's still such a phenomenal fighter.

4. Lucas:

He's good, he's very good. He's got the tools to be used on his own (without secondaries) but he's only just lacking that puts him in A-. He's clearly a capable fighter with very good projectile game and his KO power is nothing short of great. Throws, Sweetspot aerials, Uair, and the setups he has into these are all good and apparent. Again, nothing amazing or fantastical, but clearly a capable fighter with a capable toolset.

5. Mewtwo:

Some of you might say "Mewtwo isnt bottom ten! he's not THAT bad" and you're right on one part: he isn't that bad. But comparatively, this entire game is fairly well balanced and in the long run every character is fairly "good", he just so happens to be one of the worst out of the good characters.

Looking at the rest of your tier list thoughts, I'm surprised you managed to at least get the first character right. This tier list is even more incorrect than those terrible Reddit ones (not trying to be rude or anything, sorry).