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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

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NimbusSpark

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Also can't Villager pocket Pac Man's fruit or hydrant and he loses that tool for good?
Not true, to a certain extent.
1.
Villager's Pocket can disable Pac-Man's fruit, but only when the Villager is actually holding it in his hand, not when it's just in his pocket, which is actually different compared to other characters, like R.O.B's Gyro and Bowser Jr.'s Mechakoopa. Even when Villager has his Bonus Fruit on hand, Pac-Man can still outcamp him due to the fruit stopping him from using his F/B-Air for spacing unless Villager decides to Re-Pocket the fruit just by using his Neutral Special again.
2. Pac-Man can simply just summon another hydrant if his original hydrant was pocketed. So only Bonus Fruit actually works.
 

A2ZOMG

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Bowser shouldn't be that low (he has some bad weaknesses, but he can kill earlier than Ganon off of reads and has a faster command grab than him. Also fire breath).
Bowser only kills marginally earlier than Ganon with his unviable F-smash and noticeably less flexible B-air. Ganon is better at covering options in the positive state while maintaining effectively the highest overall damage and knockback in the game. In part due to his better throws, setups from Flame Choke and F-tilt, and having generally more practical aerials.
 

Emblem Lord

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Ryu at A Tier? What is the reasoning behind this? Having QCF and DP movements doesn't automatically translate to being high tier. All of Ryu's approach options are mega unsafe, and when he does get in he doesn't stay in for very long.
Ryu approaches?

News to me.

Did I miss a memo?

And if he did approach which he doesnt, SH bair super safe on block and does 13 or 16 on hit depending on the hitbox you hit with.

So what else do you have as far as argument goes? Not that I am saying he is A tier. I just hate assumptions about characters clearly no one understands and I figured you would be the last person to make unsubstantiated claims since you main pac-man a widely misunderstood character.

I can't lie bro. I'm more then a little disappointed.
 
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shane3x

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Just a few notes, won't go over every character (Is WIP):

Roy/Ryu is theorycraft. Will probably move once more data is available
Anyone in yellow/volatile is subject to sudden movements.

Comments & Critique, go!
 

PUK

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Your DLC tier is really bad (inkling and bomberman but no isaac and tetra, beurk)
Also this tier list looks like a 2 month old one. Some things like swordfighter and Ike placement are outdated, while ROB, MK and some others's place are strange (at best).
 

Zage

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Ryu approaches?

News to me.

Did I miss a memo?

And if he did approach which he doesnt, SH bair super safe on block and does 13 to 15 on hit with the stronger hitboxes.

So what else do you have as far as argument goes? Not that I am saying he is A tier. I just hate assumptions about characters clearly no one understands and I figured you would be the last person to make unsubstantiated claims since you main pac-man a widely misunderstood character.

I can't lie bro. I'm more then a little disappointed.
Ryu's Bair has 12 frames of landing lag and does not auto cancel until frame 25, which you can't do out of a sh. If you call that safe then we aren't playing the same game, especially considering Smash 4 is a game where hitting a shield is worse than whiffing an attack. His frame data on the ground is pretty above average yeah, but the problem is getting in so that you can abuse it.

He has zero safe approach options outside of using Hadoukens to cover himself, and even then, you only need to block the first hit of his HCF variation to dispel the projectile.




I'm open to video analysis if you have anything to offer. Frame data suggests
 
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shane3x

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Your DLC tier is really bad (inkling and bomberman but no isaac and tetra, beurk)
Also this tier list looks like a 2 month old one. Some things like swordfighter and Ike placement are outdated, while ROB, MK and some others's place are strange (at best).
DLC is just flavour. I'll either remove it or note it. Mii characters only got added in the most recent iteration and are likely to move. Anyone in volatile + are likely contenders to move into viable based on various factors, although most people in volatile + aren't likely to take a tournament anytime soon hence why they are there but of course things do change.
 

Emblem Lord

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Ryu's Bair has 12 frames of landing lag and does not auto cancel until frame 25, which you can't do out of a sh. If you call that safe then we aren't playing the same game, especially considering Smash 4 is a game where hitting a shield is worse than whiffing an attack.

He has 0 approach options outside of using Hadoukens to cover himself, and even then, you only need to block the first hit of his HCF variation to dispel the projectile.
12 frames is considered good lol. Its safe on block due to immense shield pushback.

Shakunetsu is not dispelled if you block the first hit. You will block all the hits and take good shield damage which is what Ryu wants.

Have you actually played Ryu or fought one? You just literally lied or you just don't know what you are saying.
 

Wintermelon43

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decided to put together a rough tier list of my opinions



lets go over some reasoning here, though.

1. Greninja:

I didn't much base this off of theorycraft or conjecture from this thread or educated guessing but rather results. Greninja is clearly a strong character and those who say he;s just "shiek but worse" get on my nerves. He's been used very well by aMSa, placing well at Apex 2015 and he has not been nerfed since. He's shown that he's a very capable fighter and his toolset is not apparently lacking.

2. Wario:

A lot of people would put Wario much lower than this, which I personally don't understand. In a game that so heavily rewards defensive play, being a character that so easily challenges defensive play is a phenomenal advantage. His frame data is superb on everything outside his smash attacks, his kill power is among some of the best in the game, having one of the most potent OHKO-type moves as well as many setups into it and other kill setups otherwise. He's also been shown to have the ability to place high in tournaments (Abadango got 8th at Apex using Pac-Man and Wario interchangeably and 4th at EVO using mostly Wario).

3. Diddy Kong:

ZeRo has shown us that he's clearly still a contender for top eight. He may have been nerfed twice but that doesnt mean much when he's still such a phenomenal fighter.

4. Lucas:

He's good, he's very good. He's got the tools to be used on his own (without secondaries) but he's only just lacking that puts him in A-. He's clearly a capable fighter with very good projectile game and his KO power is nothing short of great. Throws, Sweetspot aerials, Uair, and the setups he has into these are all good and apparent. Again, nothing amazing or fantastical, but clearly a capable fighter with a capable toolset.

5. Mewtwo:

Some of you might say "Mewtwo isnt bottom ten! he's not THAT bad" and you're right on one part: he isn't that bad. But comparatively, this entire game is fairly well balanced and in the long run every character is fairly "good", he just so happens to be one of the worst out of the good characters.
When I see a tier list, I immediately check Kirby's posisten to see if the person knows about the characters itself.

You don't know anything about characters. So please don't make a tier list.
 

Zage

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12 frames is considered good lol. Its safe on block due to immense shield pushback.

Shakunetsu is not dispelled if you block the first hit. You will block all the hits and take good shield damage which is what Ryu wants.

Have you actually played Ryu or fought one? You just literally lied or you just don't know what you are saying.
I'm open to video analysis if you have any otherwise I'll go with what the frame data says. if you're going to keep resorting to a Strawman argument I'm just going to ignore your posts. Using a SH aerial with 12 frames of lag to approach, with an auto cancel window at 25, isn't that good if its going to carry you deep into the opponents shield.

Pushback also is a non factor. The momentum you have from jumping towards your opponent will be more than enough to carry you within their range for them to punish you with an OOS option.

We clearly aren't playing the same game or you're just trolling, literally go into training mode, perfect shield the first hit of Shakunetsu and drop your shield, the rest of the hits wont affect you. Ryu isn't able to act after using hadouken/shakunetsu until well after the projectile has run its course, at high level play, there is no reason to not perfect shield it.


Ryu is flat out not that great,decent yes, but not enough to warrant being top 12 especially this early in the game where people have barely scratched the surface of his metagame. I see that you main him so I understand why you're being so defensive.
 
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Emblem Lord

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Dispel was just a bad word to use. Sorry that your vocabulary completely threw me off. Yes, the other hits wont hurt you. And? I'm all for a move that eats shields. You will block the first hit but still be in shieldstun animation.

Again you have yet to explain, why does Ryu need to approach? As in why does Ryu need to run at his opponent for a direct assault when they are in a position to block?

I'm also looking at his frame data btw. It's pretty good but again frame data only tells half a story. The rest is told by hitbox interaction, shield interactions, pushback, etc.
 
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meleebrawler

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12 frames is considered good lol. Its safe on block due to immense shield pushback.

Shakunetsu is not dispelled if you block the first hit. You will block all the hits and take good shield damage which is what Ryu wants.

Have you actually played Ryu or fought one? You just literally lied or you just don't know what you are saying.
Admittedly, Shakunetsu is dispelled pretty easily by attacks instead. But then Ryu can just use the weak (slow) variation
and follow behind it, ready to sweep you if you try to punch it so it's not like that's foolproof either.

Whether his aerials are good on shield or not, you still generally don't want to jump at your opponents with Ryu unless a) you can cross them up with nair or sourspot fair which can combo (and extra shield damage for the fair), b) you anticipate a projectile commitment or c) to psych them out and grab them when you land. Ryu's dash grab is also pretty good.

He plays like in Street Fighter, in case that hasn't been understood yet: rooted to the ground, only jumping on hard reads or when it's perfectly safe, using his projectile to chip at the enemy and force unfavourable reactions from them so he can punish. And his hitboxes are definitely good and strong enough to pull this off.

If Ryu is held back by anything, it's his disadvantage state at low percents due to low air friction and his exploitable horizontal recovery.
 
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Emblem Lord

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I want them to jab hadoukens, so they get recoil recovery

:)

SH aerials are also beneficial to me if they do it on reaction. Anticipating a hadouken and doing an attack to hit Ryu and stuff the projectile is really the only thing that disrupts my flow. But that just means I'm getting predictable.
 
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PUK

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When I see a tier list, I immediately check Kirby's posisten to see if the person knows about the characters itself.

You don't know anything about characters. So please don't make a tier list.
Kirby's posisten seems pretty legit actually. He's borderline high tier, with many being more suitable to a jump in the A tier.
Or maybe you think kirby's low tier?
 

Zage

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Dispel was just a bad word to use. Sorry that your vocabulary completely threw me off. Yes, the other hits wont hurt you. And? I'm all for a move that eats shields. You will block the first hit but still be in shieldstun animation.

Again you have yet to explain, why does Ryu need to approach? As in why does Ryu need to run at his opponent for a direct assault when they are in a position to block?

I'm also looking at his frame data btw. It's pretty good but again frame data only tells half a story. The rest is told by hitbox interaction, shield interactions, pushback, etc.
If for some god awful reason someone decides to shield all of Shakentsu's hits, it still isn't enough for Ryu to close the gap or close any meaningful distance considering he isn't able to act until frame 58. That's pretty damn laggy.

Ryu is a CQC footsie based character, and seeing as you main him, I shouldn't even be explaining why he needs to approach. He has no disjoints that I'm aware of, but if you've found someway to make Ryu work as a keep-away character then I'll admit I was mistaken.
 
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Wintermelon43

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Kirby's posisten seems pretty legit actually. He's borderline high tier, with many being more suitable to a jump in the A tier.
Or maybe you think kirby's low tier?
Which List did I reply too, I may have made a mistake. IMO Kirby is top of high tier (Maybe even top tier, depeds on how much top tiers one thinks they are)
 

Pazx

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I think any tier list that has Roy in the top 15ish characters should be taken with a grain of salt. I wasn't going to do this but since there are two tier lists to respond to I'll point out the things I disagree with most in both of them. I'll ignore ordering, this is mostly focused on characters who are in the wrong tier.

"Problems" with @ shane3x shane3x 's tier list that should be addressed:
Roy in general.
Shulk has no results and little theory backing up his high placement here.
Wario looks too low. I'd imagine him, MK and ROB are measurably better than the rest of "Volatile" tier in the current meta, but certain characters (Peach, Greninja) may be better than the latter two overall.
1111 Mii rule - this is bad and shouldn't be encouraged.
Mii placements in general - Mii Brawler sucks a lot without his optimal moveset, I'd say Gunner and Swordfighter are arguably better. None of them are the worst character in the game.
I know you said there's no placements within rows but I sincerely hope you don't consider Roy and Robin to be the best two FE characters.
You should probably also talk about D3 and Bowser being the best heavies.

"Problems" with @Ikes 's tier list that should be addressed:
How have you considered Mii Fighters? By the looks of Mii Brawler, it's any moveset, but for that Gunner is remarkably low.
Pikachu (and Rosalina) being elevated above the rest of the cast makes this tier list look like a hybrid of customs and non-customs.
Roy in general.
Ryu and Greninja probably deserves some justification.
Honestly your entire A- irks me a little because I'd like to see Roy and Lucas drop considerably and Megaman and Peach drop a little.

If you pretend there's no order within rows in this one and make the changes I've suggested this looks okay to me.

@ Wintermelon43 Wintermelon43 dude you had kirby in the top 10 of your tier list, please chill with either the hypocrisy or the hostility.
 

Minordeth

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Yeah, Ryu has good frame data. Also, no one should under-estimate shield pushback. It's the reason, say, that Ganon's U-smash and F-smash can be relatively safe, regardless of end-lag.

Ryu, as a character, takes a metric ton of practice just to get to a level where you can even win consistently, not to mention excel with. His theorycraft is nowhere near understandable yet, because he is such a weird character. I'm in agreement with Emblem Lord that any given Ryu player shouldn't approach. Ryu, more than any other character, thrives off of traps and shield pressure. Optimal play with Ryu, as it appears at this stage, revolves around forcing traps.

It only makes sense, given that he comes from the video game grandfather of yomi.
 

Wintermelon43

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I think any tier list that has Roy in the top 15ish characters should be taken with a grain of salt. I wasn't going to do this but since there are two tier lists to respond to I'll point out the things I disagree with most in both of them. I'll ignore ordering, this is mostly focused on characters who are in the wrong tier.

"Problems" with @ shane3x shane3x 's tier list that should be addressed:
Roy in general.
Shulk has no results and little theory backing up his high placement here.
Wario looks too low. I'd imagine him, MK and ROB are measurably better than the rest of "Volatile" tier in the current meta, but certain characters (Peach, Greninja) may be better than the latter two overall.
1111 Mii rule - this is bad and shouldn't be encouraged.
Mii placements in general - Mii Brawler sucks a lot without his optimal moveset, I'd say Gunner and Swordfighter are arguably better. None of them are the worst character in the game.
I know you said there's no placements within rows but I sincerely hope you don't consider Roy and Robin to be the best two FE characters.
You should probably also talk about D3 and Bowser being the best heavies.

"Problems" with @Ikes 's tier list that should be addressed:
How have you considered Mii Fighters? By the looks of Mii Brawler, it's any moveset, but for that Gunner is remarkably low.
Pikachu (and Rosalina) being elevated above the rest of the cast makes this tier list look like a hybrid of customs and non-customs.
Roy in general.
Ryu and Greninja probably deserves some justification.
Honestly your entire A- irks me a little because I'd like to see Roy and Lucas drop considerably and Megaman and Peach drop a little.

If you pretend there's no order within rows in this one and make the changes I've suggested this looks okay to me.

@ Wintermelon43 Wintermelon43 dude you had kirby in the top 10 of your tier list, please chill with either the hypocrisy or the hostility.
I admit it might have been slightly biased, but he's defitenly top 15
 

Yikarur

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Kirby is pretty bad. He has no reliable approach options and has nothing to compensate for that. In my personal list he is bottom of mid tier.
 

Wintermelon43

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And has nothing to compensate for that.
great air attacks, great comboing, good throws, good recovery, good smashes, good down and side tilt, great up tilt, can use his opponent's neutral special (Which can sometimes be really useful), and if timed correctly can KO at very low percents with the hammer. It's rare of course, but he can still KO and damage (Mostly damage) opponenets pretty good too. His KOing isn't THAT good apart from the hammer and a few airs (Apart from up throw, which can kill) IMO His advsaantages are bigger than his disadvantages

This was before EVO.
:4gaw: Is higher now, same with :4marth::4lucina:
 
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Emblem Lord

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You suffer virtually 0 shield stun from Shakunetsu. His best projectiles for covering approaches are Light Hadouken/Shankentsu since they travel much slower and can act as a kind of wall, but even then that isn't enough for Ryu to close the gap or get any distance considering he isn't able to act until frame 58. That's pretty damn laggy.

Ryu is a CQC footsie based character, and seeing as you main him, I shouldn't even be explaining why he needs to approach. He has no disjoints that I'm aware of, but if you've found someway to make Ryu work as a keep-away character then I'll admit I was mistaken.
Closing space is not exactly approaching.

The way I play him is yes if I see an opening yeah im going for it but generally I try to use hadoukens to move myself into optimal position. I dont really fish with buttons. Rather im reactive to what my opponent does. I use alot of FADC to stay mobile. So no im not really approaching.
 

TriTails

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Again you have yet to explain, why does Ryu need to approach? As in why does Ryu need to run at his opponent for a direct assault when they are in a position to block?
Um... When you are fighting against Luigi who stuffs all of your Hadokens with Fireballs alone and out-hadokens you back?
 

Emblem Lord

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Then I will stand there and powershield and see who has more patience.

After squaring off so much against Arturo Sanchez's Dhalsim so many times in years past I am pretty confident that most Luigis cannot outwait me.

They simply do not have the mental fortitude. THEY WANT DEM GRAB COMBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOS
 

Smog Frog

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i feel like some characters get beat harder by fundamentals than others(those being :4luigi::4kirby::4zelda::4drmario:)

also if you think :4kirby: is high tier idk what to say to you. he has very glaring flaws(piss mobility and range, so he cant wall or approach, light and floaty af, poor throw combos, high risk finishers) with not much to make up for them. not enough for anything above mid at least.
 

shane3x

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Your's also isn't good, once again play the character before placing them on a tier list
Basing an entire list based on the position of one character instead of the merit of every character doesn't seem quite right.

Which List did I reply too, I may have made a mistake. IMO Kirby is top of high tier (Maybe even top tier, depeds on how much top tiers one thinks they are)
On my list Kirby is where he is because he doesn't appear in the top 32 at CEO or EVO and he placed equal 49th at Apex so he isn't getting results to be considered a viable character. Nobody who was asked to provide input to the OP impressions list listed Kirby as either one of the best or worst characters. He is somewhere in the middle.

This says enough really.

I admit it might have been slightly biased, but he's defitenly top 15
Roy in general.
Answered already with the initial notes.

Shulk has no results and little theory backing up his high placement here.
The name of the yellow section describes perfectly what that section represents. The top and bottom of the cast (which shulk is neither) are easy enough to decide however the middle will take a lot more time.

Wario looks too low. I'd imagine him, MK and ROB are measurably better than the rest of "Volatile" tier in the current meta, but certain characters (Peach, Greninja) may be better than the latter two overall.
Volatile + represents characters who could end up in the lower sections of the high tiers and better then everyone else in volatile. MK and ROB are in this boat. Wario placed equal 25th at CEO, didn't place at Apex and was used in evo to counter other characters and/or PAC wasn't suitable for those MU's although same boat as MK and ROB.

1111 Mii rule - this is bad and shouldn't be encouraged.
Mii placements in general - Mii Brawler sucks a lot without his optimal moveset, I'd say Gunner and Swordfighter are arguably better. None of them are the worst character in the game.
I held off putting Mii's in the list for quite a while for a reason so their initial placement and even the context surronding their placement (1111 or XXXX moveset) is going to take a while to settle on. Although a lot of top players don't think too highly of gunner or swordfighter either.

I know you said there's no placements within rows but I sincerely hope you don't consider Roy and Robin to be the best two FE characters.
Answered your own question there.

You should probably also talk about D3 and Bowser being the best heavies.
Niche + and Volatile - for all intents and purposes could bleed into each other and be their own category. I'll refer to the OP for ganon's placement.
 
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Nobie

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The problem with Ryu relative to Smash is that Smash players are used to thinking, if you're not approaching you must be running away, as if that were a binary choice. Ryu does neither. He is a cqc footsies character but he doesn't aggress upon the opponent the way a typical Smash character might.
 

~ Gheb ~

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I think any tier list that has Roy in the top 15ish characters should be taken with a grain of salt.
This x100.

The last like 4 or 5 personal tier lists [including Thinkaman's] that have been posted in this thread all had Roy a whole tier above Marth, which doesn't make sense as Marth is better at just about everything. The only thing about Roy that's better than Marth is his dthrow but I can't think of a single matchup where Roy would be a better choice than Marth regardless.

:059:
 

warionumbah2

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Volatile + represents characters who could end up in the lower sections of the high tiers and better then everyone else in volatile. MK and ROB are in this boat. Wario placed equal 25th at CEO, didn't place at Apex and was used in evo to counter other characters and/or PAC wasn't suitable for those MU's although same boat as MK and ROB.
MK had no high level player during Apex, he got top 15 at CEO and top 20 at EVO. Both was by Tyrant who didn't use his Diddy at all, just MK.
:4gaw: Is higher now, same with :4marth::4lucina:
Why do you think Kirby is top tier? I really wanna know.

The problem with Ryu relative to Smash is that Smash players are used to thinking, if you're not approaching you must be running away, as if that were a binary choice. Ryu does neither. He is a cqc footsies character but he doesn't aggress upon the opponent the way a typical Smash character might.
The moment 90% of Smash players struggled to do basic SRK inputs(even though Sakurai made it easier to pull off) was the moment i knew Ryu was in for a bumpy ride.
 

Zage

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The problem with Ryu relative to Smash is that Smash players are used to thinking, if you're not approaching you must be running away, as if that were a binary choice. Ryu does neither. He is a cqc footsies character but he doesn't aggress upon the opponent the way a typical Smash character might.
He and Little Mac are pretty similar in my opinion.

Both character want to blow you up for trying to punish their seemingly unsafe moves and stay ontop of you but not in the same way a rushdown character would. Little Mac has his frame 1 jab and super armor, Ryu has his fast ground options and his range, seriously the hitbox on utilt is actually pretty big and he has multiple grounded options with only 2 or 3 frames of startup.

I'd almost say that both are Smash's first true vortex characters.
 
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TriTails

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Then I will stand there and powershield and see who has more patience.

After squaring off so much against Arturo Sanchez's Dhalsim so many times in years past I am pretty confident that most Luigis cannot outwait me.

They simply do not have the mental fortitude. THEY WANT DEM GRAB COMBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOS
I am willing to sit 8 minutes mashing B and I WILL wait until you make the move in even sudden death if I have to. Why? Because you are literally in no position to harm me.

Or hell, I'll just stop spamming Fireballs and do the same thing with your Hadokens. PS everything and Fireballing the fiery ones. We'll see who is the most patient then. If I'm the one who is spamming Hadokens? You screw up, you take damage or shield damage. I screw up? I take nothing~.

Players' mental fortitude is not relevant when most players have different way of play. Me? You either approach or I'll spam Fireballs until your shield button breaks or you make a move. Plain n' simple.
 
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Radical Larry

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I think people are getting everything wrong with Bowser. He is a great ground and air based character, and his SH F-Air and B-Air can autocancel and leave him far less open for attacks if input correctly, and even then, his aerials have little end lag as a result. He's got a potentially amazing edge-guarding game if one uses the edge-guarding of Ganondorf and transfers it to Bowser. F-Air and B-Air are amazing for keeping the opponent at bay, and D-Air is a very hard hitting meteor.

Bowser has a big problem, his normal stats which are his weight and body structure. He's also got laggy Smash attacks (although one gives Bowser invulnerability frames, his U-Smash), a punishable "projectile" move in Fire Breath, and yet that's it. He's an otherwise strong character with very strong tilts great for setups, combos and KOs, and even edge-guarding, and he's got powerful aerials and Smashes to boot. Specials are also very decent, running speed is amazing for him so he can catch up, and aerial maneuverability is solid so he doesn't have to worry about SD'ing while edge guarding.

And with Little Mac, I can't see him anything below Upper Middle tier. The thing is, is that he's got a lot of powerful moves and set ups that people don't really tap upon, and another thing they do not use is his aerial game, but his aerial game is not as poor as one might expect. His F-Air can semi-spike and combo into itself, and is even a potent edge-guarding tool for Mac, because it's safe, fast and actually reliable. With his U-Air, I can string opponents to days with it because of its low knockback that will make opponents go into stun long enough for me to land, jump back up and hit them again and they cannot act out of their stun.

N-Air is great for setups into Mac's ground based attacks like U-Smash if he can land N-Air. It's a very safe move, and it can link into any and all of Little Mac's ground based attacks. Speaking of, Little Mac's ground based attacks are nothing to laugh at, since if he can Dash Attack successfully, it can lead up into U-Smash. D-Tilt can lead into F-Smash, KO Punch and F-Spec at lower percentages, making him a deadly adversary on the ground. He's also very easy to utilize shield breaking capabilities; F-Smash Down is so safe on shield and takes a chunk of the shield on the opponent, and can even lead up to smacking the opponent with U-Smash. D-Smash is Mac's best edge-guarding tool for opponents who try to recover, and no more is needed since we definitely already know almost all about it.

Oh, and if you're going against an opponent who's using the air to their advantage, scare the living hell out of them by using an aerial KO Punch. If your opponent's got high damage (enough to where D-Tilt > KO Punch won't work, but enough to KO them with the aerial), make sure to smack them with this heavy punish for being in the air too long.

I believe Mac and Bowser are tiers higher than one believes, especially @Ikes Seriously dude, Bowser on the second bottom?
(Anyways, making my own tier list soon, so be aware.)
 

Wintermelon43

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MK had no high level player during Apex, he got top 15 at CEO and top 20 at EVO. Both was by Tyrant who didn't use his Diddy at all, just MK.


Why do you think Kirby is top tier? I really wanna know.



The moment 90% of Smash players struggled to do basic SRK inputs(even though Sakurai made it easier to pull off) was the moment i knew Ryu was in for a bumpy ride.
Excerpt from a 20-paragraph thing explainig Kirby.

The first thing I'll say is Throws. They are amazing. His down throw and forward throws are good combo starters. His back throw and Up throw are great at KOing, and he has one of the best and fastest Pummels in the game. All of them rack up damage and half of the, have great KO Power, and another one is great for comboing. Only one is useless. That is rare in this game. Kirby is differant. They are an essential part of his metagame and are greatly good.

Another great thing about Kirby is his air combat. NONE of his air attacks are useless. You will be in the air a lot as Kirby. His neutral air is good for comboing, and has good KO Power. It is a good Combo starter.However, it has ending lag. But it doesn't matter too much, due to its good KO Power.His up air has GREAT KO power, and is good to end a combo. His down air is great for starting a combo,and using an up tilt on the opponent. It also can do a lot of damage. His forward air is good for comboing, and getting damage on an opponent. It also has good KOing power. His back air has NO Startup, starting VERY quickly. When you hit with it, it has AMAZING KO power. It has a GREAT chance of killing. It is a GREAT move. Kirby has one of the best air games.

He has good tilts, as well. His side tilt... Isn't impressive. I guess it could be used to get an opponet away from you. His down tilt can trip opponents and is good for edgeguarding, and to make things not predictable. But most important is his up tilt. It is GREAT for comboing, and is a perfect move. it has good damage, can start combos (Such as U-tilt to D-air), or keep it going after a down air. It has good damage, can sometimes KO, Start an up air, or....... Just do anything, I guess.

And, speaking of comboing, he is GREAT at comboing. He can start a combo from down air, neutral air, a throw (Mainly down), or an up tilt. And they're all really good at doing a combo, which can end with a KO move and do a lot of damage during the combo. His combos can also finish with his Final Cutter custom (3 I think, don't remember what number. It's the one that cuts once, then leaves you helpless as you fall down).

Those are his great strengths. Except for one thing - I'll Mention that later. For now.....

I want to mention everything in this, so I'll mention Jab now. His Jab is a jab locking type. And it's really good; You can't escape it until you get out of range, which takes long enough to get the final hit on the opponent. It also does a great amount of damage. His dash attack seems good too. It has good damage, some (but still little) KO Power. That's it. Amazing right? Not.

His Smashes are pretty good, too, but not as good as his Up tilt, Up B Custom, Air attacks, throws or comboing. Better than jab and dash attack too, I just mentioned them because I want to mention every attack. His up Smash has great KO Power and great upwards range. His down smash is good for gimping, and has some good KO power. His best one, however, is his forward smash. It's a great attack. GREAT KO Power, A lot of damage, and equal range to other characters (Lol that's supposed to be good for Kirby, more of that later.)

He also has good specials. His Hammer (Side-B) Has GREAT KO power, GREAT damage.... and both endlag and startup. Yeah..... I did say his specials are only good. There is a hammer custom that helps this, but it still has some startup, and can't be charged. Oh yeah, there's a risk with charging a hammer (It most likely will make you miss and make you lose a ton of damage while walking it around, since it damages yourself when fully charged and still being held). His Stone move is good for getting back onto the ground....... but that's for glory. OTHERWISE, It can KO VERY well if you time its usage correctly. Although it's rare. Final Cutter is fairly good for recovery (Well vertical, but recovery will be mentioned later), and can sometimes be used for KOing. However his Up-B Custom (The one that does one hit up, and sends you down helpless) is a GREAT finisher and has great KO power.

There is one I didn't mention yet. Inhale. Amazing without customs, thrice great with. Without customs, He stands in place opens his mouth, and eats a character. If you hit B again to spit him out (A spits an opponent out. Only do that on walf-offs, oh wait,everyone hates walf-offs), Try to use it again. It's somebody else's Neutral Special. For example, if you inhale me, You turn into a physcho, like me right now. Normal, then Physcho now. ANYWAY.......... You can use the other's neutral special. It's useless sometimes, Great others. Now customs is thrice better, because some characters aren't worth Inhaling. His second custom is called Ice Breath. Freezes an opponent instead of copying their abilitys. Good for characters like Bowser Jr. and Jigglypuff, where neutral specials aren't good. Freezing is a great power to have. Another greast Power is stealing good neutral specials. If they have a GOOD neutral special *cough* shulk *cough* fox *cough* then The Jumping inhale is good, same as inhale, but you jump after it, giving you more recovery, and making Kirbycides ten times easier. More recovery is always good.

Speaking of recovery, it's pretty good without customs. Six Jumps, and a Final Cutter, Fairly good vertictially, but great horzintatly, although not Jigglypuff-like, since Kirby has less air speed. He gets a new recovery option for horzintatel with Jumping Inhale with customs, though, and his vertictial recovery is higher with up special custom I mentioned muitiple times but don't know the name of number of. With customs, he has great recovery.

Also, each character has start-up and end lag. Honestly, half of his moves have startup and/or ending lag, and the rest don't. I mentioned it if the lag is bad, and mean something. That can't have its own paragraph. So i'll say his speed too. Not that good. Not bad. Not good. For the ground at least. I don't know how his air speed compares to everyone else. But I do know his ground speed is average.

Also, his matchup spread. It's..... GREAT!!!! He has an even matchup aganist Sheik, Advantageous matchups aganist Fox and Zero Suit Samus, some even saying Kirby's one of Zero Suit Samus's worst matchups, and some even say his matchup aganist Rosalina is even or in Kirby's favor!! His only horribly bad matchup is Yoshi, as well, everything is 40:60 or better.Middle tiers never have matchups like that. Which is proof. That Kirby is good.

However, each character has a weakness, except for the very best. Kirby's is range. His range is terrible. A LOT of his moves have bad range, and the ones that don't still are only average or slightly good. He also can have trouble starting combos too occasionally due to this. But honestly. This is the only. only. only. ONLY. ONLY REASON. that people think he's middle tier. But that isn't bad enough to warrant that. He'd need way more weaknesses than that. Much more. Look at videos. He does fine, still, customs or no customs. Yet, only three people use him in major tournaments. He is HORRIBLY under-Representated and underated. A top tier - and almost never used. Zero even said Kirby is potentionally top tier with customs, but can't place him there in his tier list because of low representation. Wow. Is he that underated to the point where Zero can't place him to his potentntial? Yup. He is.
 
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Emblem Lord

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I am willing to sit 8 minutes mashing B and I WILL wait until you make the move in even sudden death if I have to. Why? Because you are literally in no position to harm me.

Or hell, I'll just stop spamming Fireballs and do the same thing with your Hadokens. PS everything and Fireballing the fiery ones. We'll see who is the most patient then. If I'm the one who is spamming Hadokens? You screw up, you take damage or shield damage. I screw up? I take nothing~.

Players' mental fortitude is not relevant when most players have different way of play. Me? You either approach or I'll spam Fireballs until your shield button breaks or you make a move. Plain n' simple.
I like your style
 

shane3x

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Didn't ZeRo say that about Kirby in a pre-release build of the game? Everything else can be summed with up

"What?"

It's huge bias or borderline trolling.
 
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Wintermelon43

Smash Champion
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Messages
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Didn't ZeRo say that about Kirby in a pre-release build of the game? Everything else can be summed with up

"What?"

It's huge bias or borderline trolling.
He said it in a recent video too, about a month ago I believe. "I already thought without customs he could potentntially be high tier character, but with customs he could even be top tier, but I can't put him there because no results so far"
 
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