Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Smog Frog]

very well might have been the strongest character in a beta build. remember, the game is probably altered a lot before it actually gets on shelves. you know the sfv beta? i'm sure birdie's 80% combos wont be in the final game.

 

[Illuminose]

Some people are doubting Pikachu and I don't really get why. Pikachu probably has the second best overall matchup spread in the game, next to Sheik. You have a character that goes even with Sheik and beats Rosalina, Zero Suit Samus, Sonic, Diddy, Fox... This is a character without bad matchups outside Luigi and maybe Mario, both matchups that are far from unwinnable and a slight advantage at best. By default, this matchup spread should put Pikachu near the top of the tier list. You're really going to put Luigi above him? Luigi loses to Sheik and has a tough time against Rosalina too. Luigi also has certain lopsided matchups Mega Man and Villager. Luigi should be in the top 5, but I don't really see how you could put Pikachu outside of the top 3.

 

[TTTTTsd]

That would require.......you know, the development team to care about character concepts and make fighters with.....logic. I dunno if the Smash development team has that. I mean Samus was the strongest character on their "testing" (probably was just FFA with all the items on non standard stages).

They clearly do in a lot of ways. Mewtwo's kit is super well designed outside of his properties as a character. Confusion is a great mixup combined with the fact that he has a devastating projectile, his frame data is decent and his moves themselves boast a lot of utility. Dude's really well designed outside of his weight class, and it's super heartbreaking to see that good kit go to waste.

His weight is the only thing that is off about this character, which is a shame because his overall kit is very well put together. Keep in mind Samus was their strongest at the time of the E3 build as well (you know how much this stuff changes), so whenever I see that brought up I get kind of confused because dev time changes a lot about character balance and whatnot.

 

[Smog Frog]

really shouldnt be in top 5. i'm doubting his top 10 status, quite frankly. i know i sound like a broken record but is too polarized in a way that's not top 5. i predict a -esque drop as time goes on; people think he's the best in the world but as people get better as players and his myriad of unfavorable matchups get recognized, he'll drop. i dont think a character with as many losing matchups as he does can be top 5. he practically needs a secondary, which is something a usual top 10 character doesnt need, and his results are sort of indicative of a coming drop; his results are bad at top level for as much hype as he gets. i'm not surprised at all that he dominates local settings; players there are generally less skilled and have poorer fundamentals; he struggles with good spacing because his mobility and range are bad. as time goes on and people get better at the game, he's going to lose steam.

 

[Radical Larry]

Flame Chain seems to make Ganondorf rise at least one tier because of the multi-hitting and safe attack that it is. No one can grab Ganon out of it, nor even retaliate because all of the hits happen one frame between each other. This makes the attack perfect for edge-guarding opponents, despite removing only two setups via Flame Choke. It's also got a very tremendous reach and horizontal knockback, making it especially deadly for a kill confirm at low damages from combos. It even lets Ganondorf combo from it as well with the horizontal knockback, making people rethink their approaches. Flame Chain, a multi-hitting attack that will just link up into one another and punish Ganondorf's opponents. Since the attack can't make Ganon fall off the edge like Flame Choke and Flame Wave, it's perfect for punishing any character who tries to get back on, especially characters who jump and come back on normally. That reach also helps it out by just wailing opponents with it.

But to be honest, Ganondorf gets consistent and decent results. So I really honestly believe he's somewhere in the upper middle or lower high tier around the 25th to 32nd positions (25th is around lower high, 32nd is second highest upper middle). Not only does he get good results, but he's got a MU spread that is better against opponents with hitboxes that can connect to F-Tilt, which can kill opponents really early (I'm looking at you, Shulk).

What do you really think of Ganondorf? Is he not deserving of, at least to best, upper middle to lower high tier?

 

[Ikes]

I'm not convinced yet, either. Pikachu actually has landing lag and long duration on his aerials, is one of the lightest characters in the game, and has slow air speed. However, Pikachu's size, ground speed, and back-and-forth movement in the air are good, and that's before talking about QA and combo potential. I'm just thankful that Sheik is combo bait at least.

Pikachu receiving the nerf to his ledge grab duration really hurt his edgeguard game. I just don't see it being all that dominant anymore after that change. Pikachu's sizable landing lag for his weight class also makes Pikachu quite difficult to use really well since it requires extra precision and knowledge. Once QA starts, there are only a few viable patterns available to him, and even less after the first movement. Even with the powerful smashes, default pika is balanced enough imo.



12 frames of landing lag, 25 frame autocancel, and like 13-16 damage. I wish my bair did that and I use Ike! Thank God that the hitlag modifiers are there to balance out that move (as well as lowish knockback for its damage), as well as Ryu's other intrinsic properties.

have you seen the positions his endlag puts him in though? Some of his aerials make him difficult to hit even when he lands, like bair actually causing some grabs to whiff when in endlag

 

[HeavyLobster]

Flame Chain seems to make Ganondorf rise at least one tier because of the multi-hitting and safe attack that it is. No one can grab Ganon out of it, nor even retaliate because all of the hits happen one frame between each other. This makes the attack perfect for edge-guarding opponents, despite removing only two setups via Flame Choke. It's also got a very tremendous reach and horizontal knockback, making it especially deadly for a kill confirm at low damages from combos. It even lets Ganondorf combo from it as well with the horizontal knockback, making people rethink their approaches. Flame Chain, a multi-hitting attack that will just link up into one another and punish Ganondorf's opponents. Since the attack can't make Ganon fall off the edge like Flame Choke and Flame Wave, it's perfect for punishing any character who tries to get back on, especially characters who jump and come back on normally. That reach also helps it out by just wailing opponents with it.

But to be honest, Ganondorf gets consistent and decent results. So I really honestly believe he's somewhere in the upper middle or lower high tier around the 25th to 32nd positions (25th is around lower high, 32nd is second highest upper middle). Not only does he get good results, but he's got a MU spread that is better against opponents with hitboxes that can connect to F-Tilt, which can kill opponents really early (I'm looking at you, Shulk).

What do you really think of Ganondorf? Is he not deserving of, at least to best, upper middle to lower high tier?

Customs off Ganon loses hard to Sheik and Rosa, and his other top tier MUs are generally pretty rough as well. He's got a good toolkit, but just really has issues with the stronger characters in the game, and in this game that makes him low tier even though most of his MUs outside of the top 10 are pretty evenish. His customs make him somewhat better, but no better than average, as he's still very unsafe and read-reliant. He's plenty capable of holding his own and has good tools, but meta-wise his MU spread isn't one you want when playing against the best of the best. Ganon is a character who does well in locals and decently in regionals but gets left behind at nationals along with all the other decentish characters with bad high tier MUs.

 

[David Viran]

have you seen the positions his endlag puts him in though? Some of his aerials make him difficult to hit even when he lands, like bair actually causing some grabs to whiff when in endlag

Bair has so much landing lag tho. You can drop sheild and Smash attack him.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Flame Chain seems to make Ganondorf rise at least one tier because of the multi-hitting and safe attack that it is. No one can grab Ganon out of it, nor even retaliate because all of the hits happen one frame between each other. This makes the attack perfect for edge-guarding opponents, despite removing only two setups via Flame Choke. It's also got a very tremendous reach and horizontal knockback, making it especially deadly for a kill confirm at low damages from combos. It even lets Ganondorf combo from it as well with the horizontal knockback, making people rethink their approaches. Flame Chain, a multi-hitting attack that will just link up into one another and punish Ganondorf's opponents. Since the attack can't make Ganon fall off the edge like Flame Choke and Flame Wave, it's perfect for punishing any character who tries to get back on, especially characters who jump and come back on normally. That reach also helps it out by just wailing opponents with it.

But to be honest, Ganondorf gets consistent and decent results. So I really honestly believe he's somewhere in the upper middle or lower high tier around the 25th to 32nd positions (25th is around lower high, 32nd is second highest upper middle). Not only does he get good results, but he's got a MU spread that is better against opponents with hitboxes that can connect to F-Tilt, which can kill opponents really early (I'm looking at you, Shulk).

What do you really think of Ganondorf? Is he not deserving of, at least to best, upper middle to lower high tier?

Not trying to be rude or anything, but every Ganon main i faced so far is completely overrating their character. I mean, it's a thing that brings why he isn't possibly bottom tier, i do it as well for Doctor Mario, but that's another thing to call every matchup 50/50 to 60/40, it's almost like you had the upperhand in the mindgames, which Ganon really needs if he wants to get somewhere. I mean, he has a bunch of good defensive tools but at the same time for a character of that kind i just find him so lackluster, maybe that's just me.

 

[Smog Frog]

its honestly hard to not see his matchups as 50/50. the fact that he's in rage for most of the game on top of his power is really distorting to someone trying to view the matchup for what it is, especially if you're controlling that character. his reward is that game changing. one wrong move and you're dead at 50%. i'd just put an asterisk next to his matchups that says "these numbers dont mean **** if you slip up just once" so his matchups could be honestly rated.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu doesnt give a **** about Ganon's rage.

Ryu meets that nonsense head on with the Satsui no Hadou empowered METSU SHORYUKEN!!!

 

[RayNoire]

His weight is the only thing that is off about this character

His hitbox/hurtbox issues are a much bigger deal than his weight, and are actually much more likely to be fixed. /awareness

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but my character's viability hangs in the balance.

 

[C0rvus]

Flame Chain seems to make Ganondorf rise at least one tier because of the multi-hitting and safe attack that it is. No one can grab Ganon out of it, nor even retaliate because all of the hits happen one frame between each other. This makes the attack perfect for edge-guarding opponents, despite removing only two setups via Flame Choke. It's also got a very tremendous reach and horizontal knockback, making it especially deadly for a kill confirm at low damages from combos. It even lets Ganondorf combo from it as well with the horizontal knockback, making people rethink their approaches. Flame Chain, a multi-hitting attack that will just link up into one another and punish Ganondorf's opponents. Since the attack can't make Ganon fall off the edge like Flame Choke and Flame Wave, it's perfect for punishing any character who tries to get back on, especially characters who jump and come back on normally. That reach also helps it out by just wailing opponents with it.

But to be honest, Ganondorf gets consistent and decent results. So I really honestly believe he's somewhere in the upper middle or lower high tier around the 25th to 32nd positions (25th is around lower high, 32nd is second highest upper middle). Not only does he get good results, but he's got a MU spread that is better against opponents with hitboxes that can connect to F-Tilt, which can kill opponents really early (I'm looking at you, Shulk).

What do you really think of Ganondorf? Is he not deserving of, at least to best, upper middle to lower high tier?

I honestly believe that Ganondorf is not a good character. In a meta where players know their options and how to play safe, not even optimally, but like, just play smart and safe; what options does Ganondorf have against that? How does he respond to characters with better mobility (read: 80-90% of the cast)? Or that and projectiles, better frame data, etc. By design Ganondorf is a bad character. Sure he may never be out of the game since he needs few hits to take stocks, but what if he's never able to get those hits? What prevents people from circle camping him or just out pacing him and playing safe? As the game goes on, Ganondorf will get worse and worse results. He has no place in high level Smash 4.

Also @ RayNoire Mewtwo's weight is definitely his biggest issue. Sure, his hitboxes aren't as big as they look but does that even matter? As long as you know what your hitboxes are, I don't see why it should matter. Mewtwo has a few safe moves and pretty good disjoint. Hell, if you know your moves but your opponent doesn't, they may respect your moves more as a result. I dunno, but it's not his biggest problem imo. The problem is he dies to everything like 10-20%+ earlier than most of the cast. That plus rage hurts his ability to compete far more than deceptive hitboxes.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Some people are doubting Pikachu and I don't really get why. Pikachu probably has the second best overall matchup spread in the game, next to Sheik. You have a character that goes even with Sheik and beats Rosalina, Zero Suit Samus, Sonic, Diddy, Fox... This is a character without bad matchups outside Luigi and maybe Mario, both matchups that are far from unwinnable and a slight advantage at best. By default, this matchup spread should put Pikachu near the top of the tier list. You're really going to put Luigi above him? Luigi loses to Sheik and has a tough time against Rosalina too. Luigi also has certain lopsided matchups Mega Man and Villager. Luigi should be in the top 5, but I don't really see how you could put Pikachu outside of the top 3.

does NOT have the advantage on . It's definitely even. I also do NOT believe has the advantage on given the fact that Larry has beaten Esam like 2 times now with . I also think might lose to . He's not top 3. He's top or high tier for sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxx1Uy3c_C8 <Larry vs Esam at Final Battle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdVb_G0Lae4 <Game 1 Larry vs Esam at CEO.

is one of the most overrated characters to me. Why don't we talk about who has even matchups with almost every character other then and LOL?

 

[RayNoire]

I honestly believe that Ganondorf is not a good character. In a meta where players know their options and how to play safe, not even optimally, but like, just play smart and safe; what options does Ganondorf have against that? How does he respond to characters with better mobility (read: 80-90% of the cast)? Or that and projectiles, better frame data, etc. By design Ganondorf is a bad character. Sure he may never be out of the game since he needs few hits to take stocks, but what if he's never able to get those hits? What prevents people from circle camping him or just out pacing him and playing safe? As the game goes on, Ganondorf will get worse and worse results. He has no place in high level Smash 4.

Also @ RayNoire Mewtwo's weight is definitely his biggest issue. Sure, his hitboxes aren't as big as they look but does that even matter? As long as you know what your hitboxes are, I don't see why it should matter. Mewtwo has a few safe moves and pretty good disjoint. Hell, if you know your moves but your opponent doesn't, they may respect your moves more as a result. I dunno, but it's not his biggest problem imo. The problem is he dies to everything like 10-20%+ earlier than most of the cast. That plus rage hurts his ability to compete far more than deceptive hitboxes.

It matters a lot.

Uair's missing hitbox means we can't SHAD Uair nearly as well, which would be a great approach option if it worked like it should.

Dsmash's missing hitbox means we can't hit people on the ledge at all without going offstage, making a lot of recoveries completely safe against us.

Utilt's missing hitbox behind him means he has no moves that hit behind him, and no way to catch certain cross-ups.

Standing grab's missing hitbox, combined with his poor traction, means that a lot of normally unsafe moves are safe on Mewtwo's shield.

Dash grab's missing hitbox means that approaching with grab is much less threatening (his grab range is about equal to Ganondorf's).

His glitchy hurtbox means that he can't ledge-roll, tech roll backwards, dash backwards, or cross up on landing without being hit just by regular standing coverage.

I do not care nearly as much about dying earlier as I do about all those things that could and likely would be fixed if people knew about them. See how this is a bit frustrating?

 

[Radical Larry]

Ryu doesnt give a **** about Ganon's rage.

Ryu meets that nonsense head on with the Satsui no Hadou empowered METSU SHORYUKEN!!!

Then again, Focus Attack is just not a good move at all against Warlock Punch. If Ganondorf reads a Focus Attack, Ryu is most likely going to get KO'd due to Ganondorf having SA frames, and the fact that not even Focus Attack will beat SA Frames. Plus, Ganondorf can, like every other character, shut down Hadoken and if he shields on Tatsumaki, Ryu is going to be screwed.

How screwed is Ryu if he misses Tatsumaki on Ganondorf? He's combo bait and KO bait if Ganondorf blocks it. And if Ganondorf is on Rage, Ryu is unsafe with any of his specials or Smashes if the Ganondorf player plays it right.

I honestly believe that Ganondorf is not a good character. In a meta where players know their options and how to play safe, not even optimally, but like, just play smart and safe; what options does Ganondorf have against that? How does he respond to characters with better mobility (read: 80-90% of the cast)? Or that and projectiles, better frame data, etc. By design Ganondorf is a bad character. Sure he may never be out of the game since he needs few hits to take stocks, but what if he's never able to get those hits? What prevents people from circle camping him or just out pacing him and playing safe? As the game goes on, Ganondorf will get worse and worse results. He has no place in high level Smash 4.

Isn't Ganondorf a character meant to punish those who "play safe" against him? Isn't he the character who will perfect shield the hell out of projectiles and punish accordingly? Isn't he the super heavyweight character who can edge-guard, set up early KOs, garner combos, setups and more, and even have decent tournament results? Because if he certainly isn't that character, then who is?

Point is, is that Ganondorf can be used well and if in the right hands, might even be a surprise character. Smash games are full of surprises, and it might not take long for people to find more things about Ganondorf that would make him outright terrifying.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

really shouldnt be in top 5. i'm doubting his top 10 status, quite frankly. i know i sound like a broken record but is too polarized in a way that's not top 5. i predict a -esque drop as time goes on; people think he's the best in the world but as people get better as players and his myriad of unfavorable matchups get recognized, he'll drop. i dont think a character with as many losing matchups as he does can be top 5. he practically needs a secondary, which is something a usual top 10 character doesnt need, and his results are sort of indicative of a coming drop; his results are bad at top level for as much hype as he gets. i'm not surprised at all that he dominates local settings; players there are generally less skilled and have poorer fundamentals; he struggles with good spacing because his mobility and range are bad. as time goes on and people get better at the game, he's going to lose steam.

This is a great comparison. Brawl Dedede loses to every top tier sans Marth, and has some random low-tier matchups (He loses to Squirtle for crying out loud).

 

[Illuminose]

does NOT have the advantage on . It's definitely even. I also do NOT believe has the advantage on given the fact that Larry has beaten Esam like 2 times now with . I also think might lose to . He's not top 3. He's top or high tier for sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxx1Uy3c_C8 <Larry vs Esam at Final Battle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdVb_G0Lae4 <Game 1 Larry vs Esam at CEO.

is one of the most overrated characters to me. Why don't we talk about who has even matchups with almost every character other then and LOL?

Even ESAM still believes that Pikachu has the advantage in the Fox matchup and that he was doing things wrong against Larry. The dominant off-stage and much superior punish game of Pikachu really just makes this matchup somewhat lopsided, not some crazy advantage for Pikachu but it's definitely there. I'm willing to take your word on Sonic, but the fact remains that Pikachu has the best top tier and overall matchup spread outside Sheik. I really don't think you can judge ESAM's EVO customs tunnel vision (not playing normally, tunnel vision on getting customs confirms) in one set vs a caliber of G&W that he's never seen before as an accurate descriptor of the Pikachu vs G&W matchup. I can't look at a character with a fantastic neutral vs a character with a ****ty neutral that lacks some sort of early kill cheese (outside lucky 9s) a la Lucario and call that a losing matchup. At the end of the day, ESAM still managed to adapt and win a matchup that he's probably never come across ever. That's like seeing a Sheik who doesn't know the Rosalina matchup fight a Rosalina and struggle, then call the matchup in Rosalina's favor. Even if Pikachu theoretically loses to Game & Watch and Luigi, he still has the second best matchup spread in the game by a long shot including in matchups where it counts. Rosalina has more close/losing matchups in general, Luigi does too, and so does Zero Suit... It's not even a stretch to put Pikachu in the second position if you think about it that way.

The key difference with Mario is that his matchups against Sheik and Rosalina aren't nearly as good. Mario also loses pretty hard to Luigi. This is a key distinction in matchup spread that puts Pikachu third on the tier list and Mario top 10.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Has anyone figured that if people keep playing Sheik, rosa, luigi, ness, sonic, etc... That you become more vulnerable to characters on lower tiers due to match up knowledge gap? Just a thought

 

[hypersonicJD]

I have played with some Low Tiers, Like Little Mac, Ganondorf and also middle tiers like Meta Knight and Falco. They are pretty good and it's really good for helping you to understand more match-ups againts this characters.

Sonic is definetily even with Pikachu. He can apply the same pressure to Pikachu, can block his attacks and kill him if Pikachu makes a small mistake thanks to Forward Smash. But Pikachu is also able to do nasty stuff to Sonic. Pretty interesting match-up to battle with Sonic.

 

[C0rvus]

Isn't Ganondorf a character meant to punish those who "play safe" against him? Isn't he the character who will perfect shield the hell out of projectiles and punish accordingly? Isn't he the super heavyweight character who can edge-guard, set up early KOs, garner combos, setups and more, and even have decent tournament results? Because if he certainly isn't that character, then who is?

Point is, is that Ganondorf can be used well and if in the right hands, might even be a surprise character. Smash games are full of surprises, and it might not take long for people to find more things about Ganondorf that would make him outright terrifying.

Being able to power shield things and punish aren't unique to Ganondorf. Edgeguards and combos aren't either. Ganondorf is many things; slow, heavy, powerful, he has a very bad grab and mediocre throws, he has poor mobility and no ways to deal with projectiles and camping that aren't dash to shield and hope your opponent gets bored. I'm certainly not saying you cannot succeed with him, but Ganondorf isn't a factor in top level play. He isn't a threat. When your opponent makes few to no mistakes in the neutral against Ganondorf, what can he do? His advantage is pretty good, he can set up actual tech chases and end stocks on like 2 reads. But against someone who knows the matchup or had the patience to lame him out, Ganondorf is a bad character.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Even ESAM still believes that Pikachu has the advantage in the Fox matchup and that he was doing things wrong against Larry. The dominant off-stage and much superior punish game of Pikachu really just makes this matchup somewhat lopsided, not some crazy advantage for Pikachu but it's definitely there. I'm willing to take your word on Sonic, but the fact remains that Pikachu has the best top tier and overall matchup spread outside Sheik. I really don't think you can judge ESAM's EVO customs tunnel vision (not playing normally, tunnel vision on getting customs confirms) in one set vs a caliber of G&W that he's never seen before as an accurate descriptor of the Pikachu vs G&W matchup. I can't look at a character with a fantastic neutral vs a character with a ****ty neutral that lacks some sort of early kill cheese (outside lucky 9s) a la Lucario and call that a losing matchup. At the end of the day, ESAM still managed to adapt and win a matchup that he's probably never come across ever. That's like seeing a Sheik who doesn't know the Rosalina matchup fight a Rosalina and struggle, then call the matchup in Rosalina's favor. Even if Pikachu theoretically loses to Game & Watch and Luigi, he still has the second best matchup spread in the game by a long shot including in matchups where it counts. Rosalina has more close/losing matchups in general, Luigi does too, and so does Zero Suit... It's not even a stretch to put Pikachu in the second position if you think about it that way.

The key difference with Mario is that his matchups against Sheik and Rosalina aren't nearly as good. Mario also loses pretty hard to Luigi. This is a key distinction in matchup spread that puts Pikachu third on the tier list and Mario top 10.

I see your join date is 2015. You haven't known Esam long enough. He used to think in brawl was even with and top 3 in the game. He constantly overrates in every game.

 

[TriTails]

This is a great comparison. Brawl Dedede loses to every top tier sans Marth, and has some random low-tier matchups (He loses to Squirtle for crying out loud).

Except for the fact Luigi wins against Fox, Mario, Sonic(Arguably even tho), Diddy, and Ness. Perhaps Pika? But i'm not seeing it. Others except Sheik or Rosa (Maybe Wario and ZSS), he goes even with.

For the record, I no longer think he does not have any 'polarizing MUs'. Greninja and Pac are perfectly manageable. Villager is perfectly manageable. MEGA MAN IS PERFECTLY MANAGEABLE (Practice those shields, peps). I'm not even sure if he loses to Little Mac anymore. Luigi can absolutely murder Mac if he gets a grab, ESPECIALLY near the edge. I also never seen a Little Mac taking a victory over a Luigi. I have even seen one getting beaten under 1 minute.... not really saying much. I'm meh at my reads (Can't even punish a ledge getup, derp), and I'm still fine fighting LMs better than me. Might be just me tho...

Although, I do agree he isn't really Top 10, let alone Top 5. He is pretty much sits at Top 15, nothing more. But who cares about tiers, I can beat everyone with Luigi.

I just have to be better than the opposition.

 

[Seagull Joe]

This is a great comparison. Brawl Dedede loses to every top tier sans Marth, and has some random low-tier matchups (He loses to Squirtle for crying out loud).

What...no. vs was SO bad. was only ok until fatigue kicked in and he couldn't kill. and can't do anything.

 

[Zage]

Please don't start this conversation again but FRAME 25 AUTOCANCEL IS REALLY GOOD. Please don't use that as a negative point in your discussions.

Whats with this board and taking posts out of context?

I said it was bad for a SH'd aerial not that it was bad period, it will never auto cancel when using it as an approach unless you full hop it

 

[NairWizard]

I don't think Pikachu is top 5 or even top 10. His matchup spread is decidedly not amazing. It was perhaps amazing at one point in time, when his ledge hang time was less, but right now he has a lot of matchups that are rocky or "difficult" (if even). He has evens down the line, and matchups in which he outright struggles as well.

Time and time again I have seen high-level Pikachus have trouble with the following characters:



He is slated to win against ZSS, Fox, Rosalina, and Sonic, but as Seagull said, he may not win against Sonic and Fox. Fox gets gimped and Sonic's spindash gets stopped by Tjolt, but these characters have oppressively strong onstage games that extend beyond these binary interactions that Pikachu's landing lag has a difficult time coping with (not to say that they win, though).

ZSS and Rosalina are in a unique boat, where if Pikachu plays quite perfectly (and I mean perfectly; ZSS combos and kills Pikachu at ridiculous percents, like 40, and Pikachu won't be escaping with QA against guaranteed combos), he is their worst matchup. That's quite useful if your goal is to counterpick these characters.

But then you go down the list and you have characters like Ike and Game and Watch that Pikachu randomly has some difficulty with. What other top/high tiers can you think of that struggles with so many mid tiers? The only comparable case is Luigi, who has bad MUs against the likes of Megaman and Pacman. But Luigi makes up for it in spades by being the worst MU for many characters, or among the worst. Which mid/low tier character considers Pikachu their worst MU? (please, don't say Ganondorf or Dedede) But take someone more consistent like Fox for example. Does Fox just get destroyed by anyone below high tier? Absolutely not, there's not a single matchup below the level of Luigi or Falcon that I would say Fox doesn't win. He sweeps the low and mid tiers easily.

Indeed, at this point, some of the high-level Pikachus feel that Pikachu is a counterpick character rather than a viable solo main. @Pikabunz because I respect his Pikachu play (we know ESAM's thoughts already).

Those are my thoughts on Pikachu. I have recently been transitioning to maining other characters and using Pikachu in difficult matchups.

 

[Vipermoon]

If you bothered to read my post, I said it was bad for a SH'd aerial, it will never auto cancel.

I read all of your posts and I read them well.

And if you read this thread you'd see A_Kae's post and you'll see this link http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ryu and see that in his SH, Ryu is in the air for 31 frames. So yes, it will easily AC. You don't even need a frame perfect or near frame perfect Bair.

31 - 25 = 6. That's 6 frames of slack. If you were feeling brave you could even SH Bair and fast fall the last few frames of his SH and still AC (though I don't think it's really worth it since fast falling has more landing lag than normal).

 

[Mario766]

Whats with this board and taking posts out of context?

I said it was bad for a SH'd aerial not that it was bad period, it will never auto cancel when using it as an approach unless you full hop it

Ike's F-Air requires 36 frames to auto cancel, his short hop lasts 37 frames.

It's a lot easier for Ryu to AC his B-air than Ike to AC his f-air, and Ike can cleanly rising f-air ac in a short hop.

 

[Zage]

I was definitely mistaken there, I was using the same source but the font on my phone makes the 31 look like a 21. B-air is definitely marginally better than I originally thought.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

What...no. vs was SO bad. was only ok until fatigue kicked in and he couldn't kill. and can't do anything.

My bad. Didn't play much of Brawl I just looked up Dedede's matchup spread. Whoops :/

 

[wedl!!]

i have the feeling that would be a more meta character if ,and didn't exist

she has decent high tier matchups (that aren't sonic) and probably beats

but, as @Luco was saying, people are too concerned with their speedsters to care about peach

 

[Seagull Joe]

i have the feeling that would be a more meta character if ,and didn't exist

she has decent high tier matchups (that aren't sonic) and probably beats

but, as @Luco was saying, people are too concerned with their speedsters to care about peach

I think vs might be even lol.

 

[wedl!!]

what

can u explain how a character that isn't forced to approach goes even with peach

literally the only way that peach should win that matchup is if sonic approaches, and again, he doesn't have to

 

[Illuminose]

I don't think Pikachu is top 5 or even top 10. His matchup spread is decidedly not amazing. It was perhaps amazing at one point in time, when his ledge hang time was less, but right now he has a lot of matchups that are rocky or "difficult" (if even). He has evens down the line, and matchups in which he outright struggles as well.

Time and time again I have seen high-level Pikachus have trouble with the following characters:



He is slated to win against ZSS, Fox, Rosalina, and Sonic, but as Seagull said, he may not win against Sonic and Fox. Fox gets gimped and Sonic's spindash gets stopped by Tjolt, but these characters have oppressively strong onstage games that extend beyond these binary interactions that Pikachu's landing lag has a difficult time coping with (not to say that they win, though).

ZSS and Rosalina are in a unique boat, where if Pikachu plays quite perfectly (and I mean perfectly; ZSS combos and kills Pikachu at ridiculous percents, like 40, and Pikachu won't be escaping with QA against guaranteed combos), he is their worst matchup. That's quite useful if your goal is to counterpick these characters.

But then you go down the list and you have characters like Ike and Game and Watch that Pikachu randomly has some difficulty with. What other top/high tiers can you think of that struggles with so many mid tiers? The only comparable case is Luigi, who has bad MUs against the likes of Megaman and Pacman. But Luigi makes up for it in spades by being the worst MU for many characters, or among the worst. Which mid/low tier character considers Pikachu their worst MU? (please, don't say Ganondorf or Dedede) But take someone more consistent like Fox for example. Does Fox just get destroyed by anyone below high tier? Absolutely not, there's not a single matchup below the level of Luigi or Falcon that I would say Fox doesn't win. He sweeps the low and mid tiers easily.

Indeed, at this point, some of the high-level Pikachus feel that Pikachu is a counterpick character rather than a viable solo main. @Pikabunz because I respect his Pikachu play (we know ESAM's thoughts already).

Those are my thoughts on Pikachu. I have recently been transitioning to maining other characters and using Pikachu in difficult matchups.

Pikachu definitely goes even with Sheik, which is literally as good as you can get if you're not Lucario. I am loath to take any of ESAM's matches at EVO seriously though as representations of matchups because I'm talking about customs off and ESAM was playing with total tunnel vision -- he wasn't on his game. I am super inclined not to take the G&W match as a true representation of the matchup that I doubt ESAM even knows (how could he have faced a G&W like Regi? they don't exist). I'm convinced he loses to Luigi and maybe Mario slightly, but I 100% doubt the other matchups you've stated. Still the second best matchup spread. Luigi loses at least 60:40 to Sheik. That's a much bigger deal than anything else Pikachu has to deal with. Pikachu does obliterate pretty much every non top/high tier, it's just that his lack of depth in representation means that not all of these matchups get a lot of exposure. That is, more than anything, why character boards don't list Pikachu as their worst matchup. Also, Sheik exists... Pikachu is one of the few characters in this game that is truly safe to use without a secondary due to his overall matchup strength. Rosalina's matchup spread is worse than Pikachu's ffs. She loses slightly to Sheik, loses to Pikachu, loses to Wario (if you consider him high tier), loses to Meta Knight, and has a slight disadvantage against Zero Suit. Pikachu definitely has a better matchup spread than Rosa and Luigi, I don't really see a case for otherwise given the struggle matchups of those characters.

 

[Radical Larry]

Being able to power shield things and punish aren't unique to Ganondorf. Edgeguards and combos aren't either. Ganondorf is many things; slow, heavy, powerful, he has a very bad grab and mediocre throws, he has poor mobility and no ways to deal with projectiles and camping that aren't dash to shield and hope your opponent gets bored. I'm certainly not saying you cannot succeed with him, but Ganondorf isn't a factor in top level play. He isn't a threat. When your opponent makes few to no mistakes in the neutral against Ganondorf, what can he do? His advantage is pretty good, he can set up actual tech chases and end stocks on like 2 reads. But against someone who knows the matchup or had the patience to lame him out, Ganondorf is a bad character.

His grab isn't actually bad, nor are his throws mediocre. He's got a great B-Throw on edges to set up for edge-guarding, his D-Throw can set up to D-Spec, Dash Attack and U-Air at lower percentages, and even into a Zero-To-Death string with Ganondorf. His F-Throw does 13% damage and sets up for reads and great attacks. The only bad throw he has is U-Throw.

Poor mobility is also not a bad thing for Ganondorf. Again, it means he can perfect shield more consistently and punish accordingly. And he has ways to deal with camping opponents, especially with customs on (a la Wizard Dropkick). One way to deal with camping opponents outside of perfect shielding is an aerial approach with Ganondorf; utilizing an aerial approach can allow Ganondorf to punish projectile campers with F-Spec or F-Air.

And if the opponent makes one mistake, it means the entire stock goes to Ganondorf by all potential. If the opponent runs into Rage Ganondorf's Reverse W. Punch, it's an instant KO on them near the edge; trust me, it happens a lot, I can do it to people left and right without a problem. But really, Ganondorf is a character who needs to wait on his opponent to come to him; he has to ensure the opponent is lamed out and not him. Playing Ganondorf is like playing with chemistry sets. One wrong move and Ganondorf will become like an explosion of dry ice in a bottle; unpredictable and extremely dangerous if you make the wrong move.

A wrong move against Ganondorf is letting him shield Sheik's F-Air. No matter what, if Ganondorf shields Sheik's F-Air, Ganondorf can still grab Sheik and send her into oblivion. Using Ryu's Focus Attack on Ganondorf is a death sentence for Ryu if Ganondorf uses Warlock Punch, which 80% of the time on Focus Attack, will hit Ryu. Using Fox Illusion, Green Missile and anything relative to that, against Ganondorf's Smashes, expect the worst time ever. Anyone trying to edge guard Ganondorf may be met with Ganoncide via Flame Choke.

Ganondorf is meant to be the unpredictable style of character, because no matter what, one mistake can lead into oblivion. I play a safe and reliable Ganondorf that will get to you the first opportunity I get. I am a Ganondorf player who will actually KO an opponent with Wizard's Foot on air and ground.

And one thing we can agree on, is that using Wizard's Foot as an edge guarding tool works surprisingly well.

 

[Ghostbone]

Stuff

I don't think you get it
You're way overrating Pikachu's matchup spread, and that's making you super biased when judging Pikachu's tier list position.

Fact is that results show Pikachu isn't on the level of Sheik/ZSS/Rosa, and most of the matchups you claim are even or advantaged Esam has struggled with in tournament. You can't just keep johning for Esam, at some point you have to realise Pikachu just isn't the 2nd best character in the game lol.

 

[Seagull Joe]

what

can u explain how a character that isn't forced to approach goes even with peach

literally the only way that peach should win that matchup is if sonic approaches, and again, he doesn't have to

I mean...the same can be said for every matchup with . just is able to pressure him pretty safely and throw out disjointed moves that make it harder for to get in. From my current experience I've felt this matchup was even. also kills far earlier in comparison. The Bthrow nerf matters. I'm sure Manny might agree with me. If anyone loses the lead vs then it's a nightmare for them, but that's just an issue with Smash 4 .

I don't think you get it
You're way overrating Pikachu's matchup spread, and that's making you super biased when judging Pikachu's tier list position.

Fact is that results show Pikachu isn't on the level of Sheik/ZSS/Rosa, and most of the matchups you claim are even or advantaged Esam has struggled with in tournament. You can't just keep johning for Esam, at some point you have to realise Pikachu just isn't the 2nd best character in the game lol.

Pretty much. isn't a character people innately fear going into a tourney compared to , , , and . I have yet to see a even beat a . has no true grab kill setups. He lacks range.

I also do not know why would beat . Can someone explain that to me...? I really don't know.

Side note: Quick attack is a highly punishable move that loses to any hitbox. People suck vs this just like they suck vs 's side b. Just HIT IT.

 

[Ikes]

Pikachu definitely goes even with Sheik, which is literally as good as you can get if you're not Lucario. I am loath to take any of ESAM's matches at EVO seriously though as representations of matchups because I'm talking about customs off and ESAM was playing with total tunnel vision -- he wasn't on his game. I am super inclined not to take the G&W match as a true representation of the matchup that I doubt ESAM even knows (how could he have faced a G&W like Regi? they don't exist). I'm convinced he loses to Luigi and maybe Mario slightly, but I 100% doubt the other matchups you've stated. Still the second best matchup spread. Luigi loses at least 60:40 to Sheik. That's a much bigger deal than anything else Pikachu has to deal with. Pikachu does obliterate pretty much every non top/high tier, it's just that his lack of depth in representation means that not all of these matchups get a lot of exposure. That is, more than anything, why character boards don't list Pikachu as their worst matchup. Also, Sheik exists... Pikachu is one of the few characters in this game that is truly safe to use without a secondary due to his overall matchup strength. Rosalina's matchup spread is worse than Pikachu's ffs. She loses slightly to Sheik, loses to Pikachu, loses to Wario (if you consider him high tier), loses to Meta Knight, and has a slight disadvantage against Zero Suit. Pikachu definitely has a better matchup spread than Rosa and Luigi, I don't really see a case for otherwise given the struggle matchups of those characters.

I'm still surprised maybe only one person has mentioned my placement of wario, i thought that would be met with backlash

but i still hold that opinion very strong, he is top 6.

the pikachu deal is also crazy, he's just so incredibly good with almost no flaws.

 

[Dabuz]

One thing that annoys me is when people put Rosa in their top 3. Is she top tier? Yes. Is her MU spread amazing? Not really... Does she have amazing results? Yes but almost entirely from me. (With Olimar as a crutch in certain MUs). Where as fox, zss, sonic, sheik, mario, and diddy all have really solid MU spreads with amazing solo results from multiple players. While she is top tier (IMO at the bottom of it) it baffles me to see her even compared to ZSS and Sheik.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I'm still surprised maybe only one person has mentioned my placement of wario, i thought that would be met with backlash

but i still hold that opinion very strong, he is top 6.

the pikachu deal is also crazy, he's just so incredibly good with almost no flaws.

Your tier list and opinion were so bad at first glance that I just flat out ignored anything you posted.

>Just went back to look at your list.

>-dead-