Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

Hmm.
@SolidSense, I know we've maybe joked or hinted about this. But dang. *memories*
Although I used to be quite assertive at Pika not being top 5, at this stage it's hard because the rest of the top contenders have been nerfed and they all seem to just flail around without any asserting themselves a higher position.

-

Squirtle lost to Dedede in Brawl. Fatigue hurt a lot but as a character Dedede was slight advantage at worse (so fatigue turned it into near unwinnable imo). Why?
Mittens.
squirtle (nor any of the pokemon trainer slaves) had tech rolls worth anything. You could also air release CG him to the ledge and back air him.
Squirtle's aerials couldn't get through D3's bair and grab combination. As good as people hyped Squirtle up to be, his critical flaw was his non-existent weaving, he had like 2nd highest terminal aerial mobility but couldn't retreat, so the moment Squirtle jumped and you saw what direction he was doing so, it was revotingly telegraphed. If he retreated it was free dashs in, if he came in he lost to every wall tool / was pivot grabbed by everyone.

-

Back to the trail over of Pika.
Look at no.1, who is it? .
If we consider a single tier list (i.e. pseudo customs on+off), Sheik's not only no.1 in the game but arguably in a tier of her own. Her results at CEO were still massive (7 of them in top 32) but top Sheiks lost, at EVO it was 8 of them with two in top 3. EVO showed that characters get better and worse in a way that results in a net gain for Sheik, she likely deserves a tier of her own.

As we breach no.2, if we're talking customs then is the obvious answer to me. He is the customs character who undoubtedly gets major buffs from customs as a high/top tier character. I wouldn't feel uncomfortable having Sonic in the same tier as Sheik when we consider customs.

probably takes third, maybe second with customs off. Has some slight loss match ups going by results (Ness, Mario, Oli) and probably very slight disadvantages with Pika and Sheik. Solid match ups with Luigi, Sonic, Rosalina and Wario cement this character towards the top.

Anyway have to go but I'll continue this train of thought later.

 

[ShortcutButton]

Just gonna pop in and say this isn't a very effective discussion if everyone is tunneling in on their main (that Ryu guy, that Luigi guy, that Peach guy, etc.) No names.

 

[Nabbitnator]

very well might have been the strongest character in a beta build. remember, the game is probably altered a lot before it actually gets on shelves. you know the sfv beta? i'm sure birdie's 80% combos wont be in the final game.

Birdie already got nerfed from the e3 to he beta build in terms of range. I think the e3 build of samus's up b was very crazy and before that there was stuff about zss using her boots to float like peach at some point. (I'm going to look into that one.)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

One thing that annoys me is when people put Rosa in their top 3. Is she top tier? Yes. Is her MU spread amazing? Not really... Does she have amazing results? Yes but almost entirely from me. (With Olimar as a crutch in certain MUs). Where as fox, zss, sonic, sheik, mario, and diddy all have really solid MU spreads with amazing solo results from multiple players. While she is top tier (IMO at the bottom of it) it baffles me to see her even compared to ZSS and Sheik.

I think it's because her strengths are quite obvious (Luma in general, amazing defense, good range and disjoints, GP takes a massive dump on projectile camping, etc.) while her weaknesses are less so unless you've spent a lot of time with her.

True story: I was doing friendlies against a Roy and spotdodged his fsmash, except it still hit Luma and the hitlag extended the attack enough to hit me as I came out of the dodge. This cost me the match.

 

[Antonykun]

Just gonna pop in and say this isn't a very effective discussion if everyone is tunneling in on their main (that Ryu guy, that Luigi guy, that Peach guy, etc.) No names.

It's very very difficult to discuss characters you don't know and not sound like an idiot
random fun fact Swordfighter's down air beats Rosalina's Up-air (I found this out as Rosalina :/)

 

[A_Kae]

Just gonna pop in and say this isn't a very effective discussion if everyone is tunneling in on their main (that Ryu guy, that Luigi guy, that Peach guy, etc.) No names.

I disagree. Who knows those characters better than the people who actually use them? Who is more qualified to talk about them?

It's not really 'tunneling'. It's talking about what they know best.

 

[Dabuz]

I think it's because her strengths are quite obvious (Luma in general, amazing defense, good range and disjoints, GP takes a massive dump on projectile camping, etc.) while her weaknesses are less so unless you've spent a lot of time with her.

True story: I was doing friendlies against a Roy and spotdodged his fsmash, except it still hit Luma and the hitlag extended the attack enough to hit me as I came out of the dodge. This cost me the match.

Almost a year is enough time for her weaknesses to be standard knowledge.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I disagree. Who knows those characters better than the people who actually use them? Who is more qualified to talk about them?

It's not really 'tunneling'. It's talking about what they know best.

But there's a clear difference in knowing your character's capabilities and knowing other character's capabilities. If you only know your characters strengths, but neglect almost every other character then you get this massive amount of bias and your opinions become terrible. It's a huge issue to simple theorycrafters.

The issue with most people who post here are that they either theorycraft a ****load or just spit back what random top player's opinion is without questioning it even in the slightest.

 

[Raijinken]

Almost a year is enough time for her weaknesses to be standard knowledge.

Unfortunately, aside from "she's really light" and "some moves are really good at getting Luma out of the way," and "default star bits isn't very good," I don't think her other weaknesses (whatever those might be, I must admit you and Abadango are the only two I've really seen at a high level since the 3DS days) are anywhere near well-advertised. Then again, most high (or perceived-high) tier characters are like that: people focus tremendously on what makes characters so good (like Sheik's stupid everything) and ignore their relatively few flaws (such as Sheik's lack of early kill options or relevant spikes). Compared to mid or low-tiers where it's easy to pinpoint flaws that make them generally impractical picks at higher levels (Mac's recovery, Robin's rushdown weakness and bad matchups against the high tiers, etc).

 

[san.]

Theorycraft is half the fun, though. Numbers don't lie, so it's much easier to interpret frame data, hitbox size/shield push, landing lag, and all that other stuff. I like thinking about/practicing things and having them work in tournaments.

Definitely not a good feeling when you can't get people to see eye to eye at least a little bit with some things though.

 

[RayNoire]

Just gonna pop in and say this isn't a very effective discussion if everyone is tunneling in on their main (that Ryu guy, that Luigi guy, that Peach guy, etc.) No names.

I do it because mean people would yell at me if I voiced my opinions on other characters.

Seriously guys, Ikes' tier list isn't even that controversial. I feel like if I posted mine everyone would get a signal from the hivemind to self-immolate.

That's why we can't have nice things.

 

[C0rvus]

Almost a year is enough time for her weaknesses to be standard knowledge.

You'd think so, right? It's understandable that people have trouble with her; she's a very new dynamic to the series. I would blame people's lack of MU knowledge on her being a difficult and somewhat unpopular character. I was fortunate enough to have a friend/sparring partner who is obsessed with Rosa, and was stubborn enough to stick with her. As it were, you are his direct inspiration, so thanks for that; now I have a pretty good understanding of the character, Luma counterplay, etc. Rosalina is a largely misunderstood and somewhat overrated character. But you don't need me to tell you that.

 

[Speed Boost]

One thing that annoys me is when people put Rosa in their top 3. Is she top tier? Yes. Is her MU spread amazing? Not really... Does she have amazing results? Yes but almost entirely from me. (With Olimar as a crutch in certain MUs). Where as fox, zss, sonic, sheik, mario, and diddy all have really solid MU spreads with amazing solo results from multiple players. While she is top tier (IMO at the bottom of it) it baffles me to see her even compared to ZSS and Sheik.

I have to agree. You and Rosalina are very formatable and I believe that has heavily skewed the view of the characters strength. One match up in particular cannot be overlooked when discussing Rosalina and the overall competitive landscape. Ness.

If we take Rosa out of the picture Ness is top 5 easy. Not to mention some of the strongest players in the world main him. Shaky and Fow in particular looking at recent results.

These players are in the top 10 conversation for Smash 4, so having such a strong MU against Ness is going to affect how many top caliber MUs you have to win in order to get a top 5 at a major.

If you meet a Ness in top 16 or top 8 it's one of if not the most lopsided MU you are going to see that deep in bracket. Knowing that the likelihood of playing against you is high you would think these players would have a Rosa counterpick, but I digress.

I guess my point is, having a significant portion of the elite Smash 4 group playing Ness has inflated Rosa's results and the overall view of her strength. That along with your obvious skill. I mean, we aren't seing any other Rosas come close to your results.

 

[Dabuz]

Yeah...but i'd like to point out that Rosa vs. Ness isn't even -that- bad, probably a +2/ 60-40 Rosa's favor because they both go even in neutral (Ness flat out kills a lot earlier though) and Ness does really dirty things to Rosa when she recovers. TBH I feel like the only reason I destroy Ness players so much is because they see me and psych themselves out, realistically a good Ness can avoid the GP edgeguards because I only get them if the Ness makes one big mistake or I get a hard read. (Watch game 2 vs. FOW at EVO, he made a bad mistake stock 1 and was super predictable stock 2)

 

[C0rvus]

Yeah...but i'd like to point out that Rosa vs. Ness isn't even -that- bad, probably a +2/ 60-40 Rosa's favor because they both go even in neutral (Ness flat out kills a lot earlier though) and Ness does really dirty things to Rosa when she recovers. TBH I feel like the only reason I destroy Ness players so much is because they see me and psych themselves out, realistically a good Ness can avoid the GP edgeguards because I only get them if the Ness makes one big mistake or I get a hard read. (Watch game 2 vs. FOW at EVO, he made a bad mistake stock 1 and was super predictable stock 2)

I have always thought that the Ness v Rosa MU wasn't that bad, especially back when Ness was my main. I played the MU sooo many times. Rosa gets free gimps on Ness with Gravitational Pull. So? Everyone can edgeguard Ness pretty easily (Greninja with Hydro Pump, Villager with Pocket, or just jump in front of his PKT2, etc.) Ness has great buttons; his aerials are some of the best in the game, and most of them can quickly dispatch Luma. His grab and throws are still just as busted against Rosalina. He can also get absurd juggles with PK Thunder. Hell, PK Fire can sometimes activate on Luma while Rosalina is shielding. She can still do her thing, too. Big space control, Up Air juggles, etc.

It's a near even MU in my experience. Both characters can murder each other in various ways, but Rosalina definitely has an edge, however slight it may be. Most top Ness players likely don't have a great way to practice the MU, and facing off against the best Rosa in the world isn't easy even with that experience and understanding on the character. In time, other high and top level players will start to catch up (or they won't and Dabuz will laugh maniacally as he sweeps through all the top Ness players at every major.)

 

[TriTails]

Sometimes, I just wish Luigi wasn't so overhyped.

Because reading "Luigi is overrated" hurts more than reading "Luigi isn't top tier".

 

[Superbat]

https://mobile.twitter.com/KeitaroTime/status/625504160725794816?p=v
mexican mk beats mr.r in tourney.

 

[Speed Boost]

https://mobile.twitter.com/KeitaroTime/status/625504160725794816?p=v
mexican mk beats mr.r in tourney.

OMGeezy! I would love to see that set. Nobody that can beat Mr R with MK is a fraud. Who is this guy? New killer in the mix?

 

[Nu~]

Perhaps MK does go even with Shiek like the meta knight boards believe

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Yeah...but i'd like to point out that Rosa vs. Ness isn't even -that- bad, probably a +2/ 60-40 Rosa's favor because they both go even in neutral (Ness flat out kills a lot earlier though) and Ness does really dirty things to Rosa when she recovers. TBH I feel like the only reason I destroy Ness players so much is because they see me and psych themselves out, realistically a good Ness can avoid the GP edgeguards because I only get them if the Ness makes one big mistake or I get a hard read. (Watch game 2 vs. FOW at EVO, he made a bad mistake stock 1 and was super predictable stock 2)

I don't think the neutral is even at all. I agree on the MU ratio. Though and I believe that's currently where the MU sits at on the Rosa boards. I do think this is a bad MU for Ness and the inability to recover hurts him a lot. It's just that Rosa recovery is such liability it stops the MU from being worse. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Blobface]

Ganon stuff

Playing safe and smart should invalidate Ganon in theory, but it simply hasn't. Plenty of Ganon's have placed high in stacked tourneys. Ray_Kalm placed fourth in a tourney where Ally got second. If even just 50% of the cast could just "play safe" against Ganon, there's no way a Ganon could get that far. Even if not everyone knew the matchup, there would surely be enough knowledgeable players to invalidate Ganon. Ganon isn't invalidated by smart, safe play.

What does give him trouble though is a series of absolute trash match ups against a few top-tiers. Despite Ganon placing high at tourneys, in every tourney where Ganon doesn't place first, he gets double eliminated by Sheik/Rosalina.

How much those match ups affect him as a whole is what defines his viability. That's a lot more debatable.

 

[Ikes]

what frame does chomp come out on?

Ganon stuff

Playing safe and smart should invalidate Ganon in theory, but it simply hasn't. Plenty of Ganon's have placed high in stacked tourneys. Ray_Kalm placed fourth in a tourney where Ally got second. If even just 50% of the cast could just "play safe" against Ganon, there's no way a Ganon could get that far. Even if not everyone knew the matchup, there would surely be enough knowledgeable players to invalidate Ganon. Ganon isn't invalidated by smart, safe play.

What does give him trouble though is a series of absolute trash match ups against a few top-tiers. Despite Ganon placing high at tourneys, in every tourney where Ganon doesn't place first, he gets double eliminated by Sheik/Rosalina.

How much those match ups affect him as a whole is what defines his viability. That's a lot more debatable.

is Ray_Kalm the ganon that ****** on some fox player by flame choking him offstage stock 2? and basically just disrespected the hell out of him for like two games?

EDIT: yeah, here it is

 

[Superbat]

Perhaps MK does go even with Shiek like the meta knight boards believe

Optimal sheik that zones with needle beats us. Aggro sheik\unoptimal sheik is debatable (im not claiming mk goes even, its just MUCH less painful than needle zoning sheik). All mr.r needs to do is spam that b button more. stream link-http://www.twitch.tv/mew2king

 

[C0rvus]

Ganon stuff

Playing safe and smart should invalidate Ganon in theory, but it simply hasn't. Plenty of Ganon's have placed high in stacked tourneys. Ray_Kalm placed fourth in a tourney where Ally got second. If even just 50% of the cast could just "play safe" against Ganon, there's no way a Ganon could get that far. Even if not everyone knew the matchup, there would surely be enough knowledgeable players to invalidate Ganon. Ganon isn't invalidated by smart, safe play.

What does give him trouble though is a series of absolute trash match ups against a few top-tiers. Despite Ganon placing high at tourneys, in every tourney where Ganon doesn't place first, he gets double eliminated by Sheik/Rosalina.

How much those match ups affect him as a whole is what defines his viability. That's a lot more debatable.

I mean, player skill is definitely a factor, and Ganondorf players obviously still have mind games and the like at their disposal like everyone else, but I really don't see the character going anywhere but down. I am likely underrating him a bit, but he just seems bad to me. Results are results, though. However, I am a bit curious about the Rosalina MU. She's pretty flimsy, and I imagine most of Dorf's moves have no problem disposing of Luma. What makes it so bad?

 

[HeavyLobster]

I mean, player skill is definitely a factor, and Ganondorf players obviously still have mind games and the like at their disposal like everyone else, but I really don't see the character going anywhere but down. I an likely underrating him a bit, but he just seems bad to me. Results are results, though. However, I am a bit curious about the Rosalina MU. She's pretty flimsy, and I imagine most of Dorf's moves have no problem disposing of Luma. What makes it so bad?

Rosa edgeguards Ganon for free. Also Ganon has issues disposing of Luma safely, at least without customs, and Flame Choke is largely useless with Luma around, without which Ganon has issues vs. shields. It's not as bad as Sheik because Rosa can be gimped once you get her offstage much more easily, but Rosa's definitely tough.

 

[Blobface]

what frame does chomp come out on?



is Ray_Kalm the ganon that ****** on some fox player by flame choking him offstage stock 2? and basically just disrespected the hell out of him for like two games?

EDIT: yeah, here it is

That's only the beginning my friend.

Spoiler

Side note: since I only listed Sheik and Rosalina, I figured I'd also bring up Ganon's other worst matchups; Sheik, Rosalina, Villager, ZSS, Pikachu, Sonic. The final two are significantly better than the first four.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

That's only the beginning my friend.

Spoiler

Side note: since I only listed Sheik and Rosalina, I figured I'd also bring up Ganon's other worst matchups; Sheik, Rosalina, Villager, ZSS, Pikachu, Sonic. The final two are significantly better than the first four.

Ganon is scarier than Sheik sometimes. Sure he's easier to beat but when a character can turn a match around like that you can't deny that Ganon keeps you on your toes. You make a mistake against Sheik? Idk you'll probably eat a grab. Maybe get combo'd. The occasional Vanish. But if you make a mistake against Ganon? You can lose the lead. You can lose the stock. You can lose the set.

 

[migul]

what frame does chomp come out on?



is Ray_Kalm the ganon that ****** on some fox player by flame choking him offstage stock 2? and basically just disrespected the hell out of him for like two games?

EDIT: yeah, here it is

Wario's bite? Frame 2

 

[LancerStaff]

Why do people always get so much wrong about Pit? His recovery is the biggest offender. Everybody think's it's predictable and easy to gimp... It's predictable, alright. 99% of the time he's getting the ledge unscathed. His arrows, approach options, and comboing ability are similarly underrated.

Are characters like Peach and Yoshi similarly misunderstood or what?

 

[irokex13]

"Whoa! is crazy underrated! He's so scary and can easily kill you if you mess up! Solid mid tier."

- kills you at like, 80% with F smash/fair/bair/up B-

"Man, Zelda is the worst in the game. Utter garbage. What can she even do?"

 

[Lavani]

what frame does chomp come out on?

Frame 8.

 

[Firefoxx]

Leo just tripled 2 stocked Mr. R in grand finals

Edit: I only saw 2 of the matches since they happened so fast. but he did 2 stock him in those

 

[Project Quarantine]

Edit: other post came in seconds before mine whoops
Leo (meta knight) of Mexico just defeated Mr R. twice in a tournament, once in gfs. He called out zero and wants to 2 stock him.

Guys, we've had mexico under our pillows

 

[Dabuz]

So like...MK though, honestly it looked like once MK gets in, Sheik can't get him away, and she can't exactly challenge his butter knife with those limbs, finally Sheik gets comboed for free because of her fall speed...prepare to see lots of MK in the future I think

 

[Illuminose]

Turns out ZeRo is right. Sheik isn't broken, people just need to play better.

:]

btw the MK Sheik matchup is definitely at least 50:50, if not 55:45. I think we just saw MK combos, dominant mid range, and the KO power differential coming hugely into play. He's comparably fast and can jump over needles with his multiple jumps. This isn't some new idea (Sheiks and MKs have known since forever), but I think this shows it better than any measly regional results or theorycraft that this matchup actually pans out pretty much just like it does in theory. Not only that, but a Mexican Toon Link was doing pretty damn well in losers finals. Color me impressed, I thought that matchup was pretty bad for Toon Link. Made that matchup look more like a +1 than a +2 or +3 though I'm wary that it's Mr R not knowing the matchup and thus don't want to draw any immediate conclusions.

 

[FullMoon]

Mexicans are secretly the best players confirmed? =V

 

[Speed Boost]

"Whoa! is crazy underrated! He's so scary and can easily kill you if you mess up! Solid mid tier."

- kills you at like, 80% with F smash/fair/bair/up B-

"Man, Zelda is the worst in the game. Utter garbage. What can she even do?"

Ganon doesn't have a kill throw. He is also slow and doesnt have kill combos out of throws either. So yeah, shield vs Ganon. Tech if he gets you with Side B. Don't roll all over the stage. Dash shield and OOS options. Space safe aeirals.

With this type of patient methodical game plan Ganon will struggle against a lot of the cast. He is not bad, he is just not as good as most of the other characters.

Same goes for Zelda. Yes, plenty of moves that kill, including FTilt and BThrow, which is nice. So, she can beat shield better than Gannon. However, she is slow and she has poor boxing options and no real aerials to space on shield either. In other words, her neutral game is pretty rough.

Ganon and Zelda have some good stuff, but they lack enough good stuff to be viable at the highest level of tourney play. The other characters in the bottom third of the cast share the same problem of limited options.

 

[TriTails]

That's only the beginning my friend.

Spoiler

Side note: since I only listed Sheik and Rosalina, I figured I'd also bring up Ganon's other worst matchups; Sheik, Rosalina, Villager, ZSS, Pikachu, Sonic. The final two are significantly better than the first four.

?

Turns out ZeRo is right. Sheik isn't broken, people just need to play better.

...People actually say that?

Not related to Leo vs Mr. R, that reminds me. ZeRo was right on one sentence, too. Unless (near) fully charged, needles ain't doing anything/not much of a threat, unless it hits at higher percents, which made me believe fixed KB change would be fair nerf to Sheik without ruining her.

 

[IsmaR]

https://mobile.twitter.com/KeitaroTime/status/625504160725794816?p=v
mexican mk beats mr.r in tourney.

For anyone wanting to watch the playback:

http://www.twitch.tv/mew2king/v/8682933

Mr. R gives his thoughts towards the last 10 minutes to the end.

 

[ZcK]

Some thoughts on the stream:

Sheik still can use efectively her dumb stuff like the needles and such, for what is worth she cannot punish MK as well as many other characters because of his multiple jumps, when many characters risk to go for the airdodge or jump and having sheik punish their landing with whatever she pleases MK can simply jump away with no fear of being chased by her since he can challenge her aerials with his yellow knife, or just escape waiting for her to make a bad read and just land. And when she was too close MK could escape with a down air out of shield so her pressure wasnt as potent as usual.

Also she seems to lack many options when someone is directly under her, and her disadvantage state is apparently bad when she can t escape with bouncing fish, but anyway is not like many characters can chase her like MK so maybe is just the matchup there.

In the end she still was able to use her dumb stuff whenever she wanted and have herself go unpunished many times, but Leo just outplayed him doing some cool reads in the way. For what it seems though matchup ignorance could have affected Mr R but what do I know I got like 30 posts backing my credibility.

Also from what I heard on the stream leo the Mk player is 14 years old so... way to go.