Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Nidtendofreak]

aaaaaand Blue just beat Big Boss in losers. Played Mega Man g1 and lost, switched to Sonic for g2 and won, 2 stocked g3.

Sounds like BB choked. Beat his MegaMan, lost to his Sonic that he had beaten before, then panicked game 3.

 

[Vipermoon]

I think Roy being considered better than Marth was DLC hype. Then there's the fact that Marth gg as received significant buffs. I also don't think Roy does better than Marth vs top tiers.

For me thinking he was better wasn't about DLC hype but the fact that I noticed Roy had better mobility on land and sea (air) and had slightly better damage and frame data. The DLC hype was in my head however when I decided to co-main him with Marth (to cover more MUs which Roy turned out to be incapable of doing LMAO). That didn't last long at all after I sat down and thought about Roy's disadvantages. I knew it would suck against the competent players in tourney. Also, apparently as a Roy/Marth you can't have Marth/Roy (Lucina too) as a secondary because it really messes with you. After dissecting Roy for a whole day my Marth was trash for two whole days.

In reality, as far as who's better I actually think they are both somewhere in mid-tier but Marth is definitely higher in mid-tier than Roy. The tipper, recovery, edgeguarding, range/disjoint, and better disadvantage state is more important against the top tiers so no way Roy can rank higher.

Can someone please explain why a good grab/throw game is extremely important UNLESS it's Roy? Where exactly is the logic in this.

Because Roy's grab game isn't even that good. You DI-away from his combo throws (DI-in if you're feeling brave and want to throw them off), his Uthrow is weaker and more DI-able than Marth's, his Bthrow is useless. And then he literally has almost no way of throwing you off-stage (does Fthrow count?). But by grab game you're talking about combos and I assure you while the knockback is awesome (despite both throws sending you in the same direction) the end lag on them are the same as Marth's.

Actually, Marth has the same end lag on his throws in Melee and Brawl (I'm sure of Brawl, Melee feels the same) but in Brawl/Melee he had little knockback and in Melee he had more than enough hitstun to play with while in Brawl he had grab release.

It's funny, in the Marth v. Roy MU Marth's Dthrow is actually almost as useful as Roy's thanks to the fast faller's fast falling.

Edit: Forgot to mention Roy has Marth's dash grab so sucks for him.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

I think the other factor in Abadango's list is that it seems to be almost more "matchup charty" than how a lot of people here perceive tiers.

Consider the idea that Abadango first says that there are a lot of high tiers that Mewtwo struggles against, but that he doesn't lose to any of the lower tiers. From the perspective commonly seen in this thread, that would make Mewtwo an automatic low tier even assuming everything Abadango says is true. If your losing matchups are the most frequently used characters, why would you say he's any good? But if you look at it from the idea that all characters in a game have equal representation, that can change a lot.

That makes sense, but I'm not sure he is right about Mewtwo beating the low tiers. I know Samus beats him. Lucas and Mr. G&W are two mid-tier characters who I think beat him. And I've heard that Little Mac does as well.

 

[C0rvus]

Mewtwo is a weird case. I do think that Abadango overrates him, but he isn't as terrible as a few people here seem to think. I have a buddy who I play with a lot, and I'm trying to help him improve. He plays Mewtwo, Charizard, and Diddy. His Mewtwo has begun giving my Toon Link a very hard time. Could be my lack of experience in getting around smart use of shielding, but Mewtwo has good range on his down tilt, jab mixups, a decent projectile, and 2 grabs, one of which is a reflector; all of these used effectively make it hard for Toon Link to play his game. I think it's too early to say it's in Mewtwo's favor, but I just thought I would share.

Mewtwo has the ability to play safer than a lot of characters, and with his explosive kill power and strong offstage game, he has the ability to compete at least. He can also be played in a riskier manner, but I don't think that's the future of Mewtwo.

He still does get crapped on by most top tiers, though, so there's that.

 

[meleebrawler]

That way I read it, the sentence was like: "If Mewtwo can get a read, he can take a stock and turn the match to his favor." Every character can make a read and take a stock. Whether that's landing a strong kill move like a tipper Side Smash from Marth, landing a shield break with Collarbone Breaker and killing them with an input Shoryuken (if they're not a Jigglypuff who would just die before that) as Ryu , somehow landing a Warlock Punch in neutral as Ganondorf, or capitalizing off a read and setting up a kill like what Sheik, ZSS, Greninja, and plenty more can do. It's a really vague sentence to me.

If it was something like, Mewtwo has safe and reliable options to turn a match around, that might be better. Take Ganondorf, he has quick aerials that do a lot of damage and a ton of knockback. His tilts are pretty fast for a character of his weight class. Those are examples of Ganondorf being able to quickly turn a match to his favor if he's able to land them. So, what's Mewtwo got? I dunno; I don't play him. I know his Fair is fast and strong and you can set it up from a Nair, but that's just 1 move.

Lots of his moves aren't that threatening in of themselves but serve to put opponents in positions where they're more likely to make the mistakes Mewtwo can capitalize on. (So basically like the Sheik/ZSS examples you listed).

Dtilt is his bread and butter move for starting these due to it's range. Dthrow and Confusion also fulfill this role.

Disable is his most devastating read since it easily sets up fully charged smashes around 80%. Second most threatening is his usmash since it just starts up so fast for how hard it hits and it's lingering nature can let it catch airdodges.

Then of course there is the omnipresent threat of Shadow Ball.

 

[C0rvus]

I think that it's the relative safety of his kill moves that make him more of a threatening presence.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

For me thinking he was better wasn't about DLC hype but the fact that I noticed Roy had better mobility on land and sea (air) and had slightly better damage and frame data. The DLC hype was in my head however when I decided to co-main him with Marth (to cover more MUs which Roy turned out to be incapable of doing LMAO). That didn't last long at all after I sat down and thought about Roy's disadvantages. I knew it would suck against the competent players in tourney. Also, apparently as a Roy/Marth you can't have Marth/Roy (Lucina too) as a secondary because it really messes with you. After dissecting Roy for a whole day my Marth was trash for two whole days.

In reality, as far as who's better I actually think they are both somewhere in mid-tier but Marth is definitely higher in mid-tier than Roy. The tipper, recovery, edgeguarding, range/disjoint, and better disadvantage state is more important against the top tiers so no way Roy can rank higher.



Because Roy's grab game isn't even that good. You DI-away from his combo throws (DI-in if you're feeling brave and want to throw them off), his Uthrow is weaker and more DI-able than Marth's, his Bthrow is useless. And then he literally has almost no way of throwing you off-stage (does Fthrow count?). But by grab game you're talking about combos and I assure you while the knockback is awesome (despite both throws sending you in the same direction) the end lag on them are the same as Marth's.

Actually, Marth has the same end lag on his throws in Melee and Brawl (I'm sure of Brawl, Melee feels the same) but in Brawl/Melee he had little knockback and in Melee he had more than enough hitstun to play with while in Brawl he had grab release.

It's funny, in the Marth v. Roy MU Marth's Dthrow is actually almost as useful as Roy's thanks to the fast faller's fast falling.

Isn't Roy's Up throw just as powerful as Marth's though? IIRC it kills at 170% without rage just like Marth's.

Personally, I think the biggest issue with Roy's grab game is how little range his Dash grab has.

 

[A_Kae]

Isn't Roy's Up throw just as powerful as Marth's though? IIRC it kills at 170% without rage just like Marth's.

Personally, I think the biggest issue with Roy's grab game is how little range his Dash grab has.

No, Roy's uthrow definitely kills later than Marth's. I don't recall the kill percents for Roy, but I think it's something like more than 15% later than Marth, usually.

 

[Jucchan]

Translations from Abadango's blog http://abadango.com/ssb4-tier-list-ver-1-10/ regarding his latest tier list:

Still the best in the game.Though his f-air % nerf demands more precision from the player, the hitbox and speed of the move didn't change so her strength in the neutral hasn't changed. Though it's harder to kill with f-air now, there are still many chances to kill off of options from down and side throw, recovery denial, and Bouncing Fish. Her standing grab is 27F so if you play a character with a slow sidestep you're still at a disadvantage even if you dodge.

Until recently I didn't understand what was truly good about this character. Her down-b meteor combos are easier than people think, and she also has the guaranteed up-air from down throw and the up-air up-air up-b combo. I suppose no one dies from the up-air to up-b combo anymore though since people know how to DI it now. I've been thinking recently that her recovery and ledge trumps are amazing. If having a tether wasn't enough, she can grab the ledge with invincibility using down-b, and her up-b hitboxes are good so it's hard to prevent a recovery that way too. Her tether recovery is unlikely to get ledge-trumped, and even if does, she can still get back because of how many recovery options she has. You can act out of tether ledge grab faster than regular ledge grab, so if you get a ledge trump with it you can pretty much cover all options. Disadvantageous matchup against Sheik, maybe also against Villager and Sonic.

Rose because the other characters got weaker. Nothing's changed about her. Sheik is a bit of a hard matchup but it's still winnable, and ZSS is probably her worst matchup. There are a couple other iffy matchups, but Luma's high kill power can probably do something about them. She's good against the low tiers too, so her rating's pretty good!

The character's who's best option in the neutral is to not do anything. In the end, he probably won't need spin dash for anything outside of combos. Although kill moves like back-throw, up-smash, and f-smash got nerfed, they still kill. This is all a somewhat weak argument though, so maybe I could have put him in A-.

At first I thought his strength came from Ranai just being good, but thinking that even if that's true, the character has to be good to in order to get such good results, I decided to re-evaluate the character. His ability to rack up damage increased since he has f-air and n-air from down-throw now. His slingshot is no different from Sheik's f-air. He recovery and recovery denial are both amazing. He dies later than most due to being able to stop he aerial momentum with side-b, and with rage he can kill with triple turnip and sweet spot b-air. He can also escape Sheik's options from down-throw. He can also get guaranteed kills with his axe which comes out fast. I think he's at a disadvantage against Rosalina, but I'm not so sure about any other characters.

I'll translate the rest after work.

Here's the rest:

I think people have started to recognize his strength. His up-smash and combos are strong. His up-b recovery has invincibility and is actually good. Definitely is at a disadvantage against Sheik and Sonic.

He has been getting slightly nerfed. B-air and u-air have less power so I think there will be times where you will die from them at unexpectedly low percents anymore. However, b-air still packs a punch, and landing u-air to knee is too strong.

Another character that people have started to recognize. It goes without saying that DA to u-airs to up-b is strong. You can also set up DA from down-throw. His weaknesses are that his only approaches are DA and grab, and that he gets comboed because of his aerial speed and weight. He doesn't have a combo breaker, so why not make his n-air hitbox come out as fast as the animation?

I don't really think he's strong, or rather I don't struggle against him, but depending on your character it's hard to hit him and he doesn't let you land. His recovery is strong too. Of course, it's bad that his only killing options are up-throw thunder and the off-stage game. He has no trouble doing well against the high tiers, but I feel he struggles against some low tiers.

His neutral game and combos are strong. His weaknesses are that he gets comboed and has a weak recovery, but his ability to quickly rack up damage makes up for it. Because his rapid jab combos better now he can safely get damage when the opponent at lower %, in exchange for losing his jab to jab combos. The matchup against Rosalina is tough because of Luma.

People say that he got weaker, but his strong neutral game hasn't really changed aside from not being able to throw out u-air since f-air, monkey flip, and banana are still strong. I think he's very good against low tiers. His recovery is also pretty good. People say that he struggles to kill now, but it's just that his killing power pre-patch was absurd. Now he can kill with d-tilt to up-smash, banana to smash, and b-air.

I said he was strong but he lacks a way to deal with shields. F-air and jab are extremely good. He seems to struggle against characters like Sonic, Sheik, and Rosalina.

High combo power and edge-guarding ability. Rage f-air and up-smash are both extremely strong. Doesn't have any approach other than turnips, DA, dash grab, and side-b.

His moves have high hit-stun so I thought he would be bad, but it turns out he doesn't need to win the neutral. If you get 3 f-airs, the opponent's at kill %! Even if you're losing in % if the opponent has about 50% you can probably make something happen with Shoryuken. It's disappointing that similar to CF, he can't recover without his double jump intact.

Good around the ledge, gets rage easily because of his weight, and has the fart. Since people have figured it out now, n-air to fart won't work against top players. He'll want to center the game around biting and grabs and somehow setup a fart a different way. Also, his neutral is bad, only really having f-air. His inability to easily take care of lower tier characters is also a weakness.

I don't feel a need to seriously think of a matchup chart for him, but b-air, u-air, aura sphere, and force palm are strong. If you get 2 or 3 reads you win. He's bad against characters that kill early like Rosalina and Wario.

Side-smash is strong! Pikmin cycling is inefficient, and you can't do anything if you get hit when you don't have a Pikmin on hand. His recovery is on the good side, but he's bad at landing. However, his side-smash and throw combos at low percents are strong.

Strong on the ground. I feel that his multiple jumps make up for his weak aerials. He doesn't have any broken moves but he has everything.

Movement centered around gyro, down-throw u-air, and up-smash are all strong. If you don't take his gyro, he'll set it up on the ledge and you'll have trouble getting back on stage. His rolls, landing, and recovery are weak.

His throw combos are what make him strong. The nerf to fireball makes him struggle in the neutral. I don't think that he's A tier because of his weaker neutral game. He struggles against characters that run away.

All of his specials are good, and he can camp out all except for a few characters. It's strong that he can go on the offensive when he has a fruit in hand. He doesn't seem to be able to beat characters in tiers above him. He's weak against characters that won't let him charge a fruit. His throws are weak too, so please give him throw combos!

Return of the Water Shuriken, as well as f-tilt that can be used in down-throw combos and the neutral. I think that you can call him a semi-strong character. His weakness are still that he has no anti-air for those in front of him and that his punishes out of shield are weak.

His combos with bombs and boomerang, up-tilt, and up-smash are strong. At around 80% he can kill with bomb to f-air. His floatiness despite not having a way to land aside from bombs and the risk of grabbing not outweighing the reward are his weaknesses.

Similar to Pac-man. Depending on the character matchups are harder for Duck Hunt. Though he's strong near the ledge, if he gets sent off-stage he can't come back a lot of the time.

Has good combo breaking tools. His approaches are only DA and grab, and the rest are all moves you throw out and hope the opponent will get hit, so he has trouble when the opponent punishes his landings. His recovery is bad as well, if you get hit by PK Thunder before Ness does Ness just falls to his death.

Up-smash, DA, jab, and down-throw are strong. However, he has many characters against whom he can't win the neutral or land.

He has many moves like d-tilt, DA, and Shadow Ball that he can use in the neutral. But, his large hurtbox and light weight make his easy to kill. He pretty much doesn't lose to low tiers, but many matchups against high tiers are extremely tough. However, his ability to win off of a hard read or something is high. (In Japanese, it's described as One-Chance ability)

His neutral using Metal Blade and Mega Buster is strong. Slow characters will probably get shut out just by Mega Buster. His smaller grab range hurts his neutral though. His inability to rack up damage and bad recovery are glaring weaknesses. If someone can perfect high-damage Metal Blade combos his placing might change.

Has throw combos and has strong smashes and b-air. A rare character that is both heavy and fast. But, his lack of approach makes the neutral tough and he has a weak recovery.

 

[Ffamran]

No, Roy's uthrow definitely kills later than Marth's. I don't recall the kill percents for Roy, but I think it's something like more than 15% later than Marth, usually.

Adding on, Marth and Lucina's U-throw does 4%, has a BKB of 70, KBG 120, and a hit angle of 93°; Roy's does 6%, has a BKB of 60, KBG of 100, and a hit angle of 97°. So, a combination of a less vertical angle and lower knockback overall makes Roy's U-throw less stronger. Yes, it does more damage, but only slightly.

 

[FullMoon]

Well Abadango got Greninja's weaknesses right at least. Though I don't really think a lack of a fast F-Air or N-Air is that bad.

And oh wow I only now noticed his placement of Ness.

 

[Gawain]

Im still not seeing how Marth is better. His edge guarding is not that great. All his moves are slow and he can't really do anything tricky off stage. And Roy being worse than Marth close up? I also disagree with this. They both have jab and dtilt for close range game, and they both have to space to be safe. They're also similar in speed on both moves. They both get decent rewards for landing the moves too. If anything it's pretty much even.

And also, Roy has non-DIable throw combos, saying you can just DI is not true. F throw into nair or DB works pretty much in all situations. Low percent dthrow also leads into a bunch of stuff. At mid percent they can DI dthrow to avoid certain options though, that is true.

I'm not seeing how Marth does better vs a character like Sheik than Roy. Roy is much faster and actually gets rewarded for grabbing sheik. He also has agood tomohawk game unlike Marth, making getting a grab much easier and giving him more choices in neutral. They both lose horribly in the air because sheiks fair is just too fast. But at least Roy can do things once he gets in, once Marth gets in he'll throw and do maybe 15ish percent if he's lucky. Just about the only thing I'll give to marth in this is that if he lands sour jab 1 at 120+ he is almost guaranteed a kill with Up B (if he's closeish to the ledge).

 

[Vipermoon]

Isn't Roy's Up throw just as powerful as Marth's though? IIRC it kills at 170% without rage just like Marth's.

Personally, I think the biggest issue with Roy's grab game is how little range his Dash grab has.

I totally forgot to mention Roy has Marth's DG. I actually meant to when I was going through my points in my head before typing. I'm going to add that in if you don't mind

No, Roy's uthrow definitely kills later than Marth's. I don't recall the kill percents for Roy, but I think it's something like more than 15% later than Marth, usually.

They are close.

On FD with 0 rage, no DI...
Marth kills Marth at 168
Roy kills Marth at 173.

But Roy's Uthrow has a less vertical angle so DI affects it more.

With backwards DI...
Marth kills Marth at 174 (3.57% increase).
Roy kills Marth at 181 (4.62% increase).

Much bigger difference.

Edit: Clean this^ up

 

[Illuminose]

I don't really think he's strong, or rather I don't struggle against him, but depending on your character it's hard to hit him and he doesn't let you land. His recovery is strong too. Of course, it's bad that his only killing options are up-throw thunder and the off-stage game. He has no trouble doing well against the high tiers, but I feel he struggles against some low tiers.

Up smash...jab lock stuff...forward smash... I'm also skeptical of the assertion that he struggles with some low tiers because it's just not true.

I said he was strong but he lacks a way to deal with shields. F-air and jab are extremely good. He seems to struggle against characters like Sonic, Sheik, and Rosalina.

Command grab...down air...

His throw combos are what make him strong. The nerf to fireball makes him struggle in the neutral. I don't think that he's A tier because of his weaker neutral game. He struggles against characters that run away.

Luigi has a very good neutral with his fireballs. The minor fireball nerf didn't change that.

A lot his points are just questionable.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Im still not seeing how Marth is better. His edge guarding is not that great. All his moves are slow and he can't really do anything tricky off stage. And Roy being worse than Marth close up? I also disagree with this. They both have jab and dtilt for close range game, and they both have to space to be safe. They're also similar in speed on both moves. They both get decent rewards for landing the moves too. If anything it's pretty much even.

And also, Roy has non-DIable throw combos, saying you can just DI is not true. F throw into nair or DB works pretty much in all situations. Low percent dthrow also leads into a bunch of stuff. At mid percent they can DI dthrow to avoid certain options though, that is true.

I'm not seeing how Marth does better vs a character like Sheik than Roy. Roy is much faster and actually gets rewarded for grabbing sheik. He also has agood tomohawk game unlike Marth, making getting a grab much easier and giving him more choices in neutral. They both lose horribly in the air because sheiks fair is just too fast. But at least Roy can do things once he gets in, once Marth gets in he'll throw and do maybe 15ish percent if he's lucky. Just about the only thing I'll give to marth in this is that if he lands sour jab 1 at 120+ he is almost guaranteed a kill with Up B (if he's closeish to the ledge).

Dont say falsehoods in an attempt to prove a point.

What you said is blatantly wrong. Cut that out.

Also frame data wise Roy and Marth are virtually equal.

So if Marth attacks slow then guess what?

 

[Dathx]

I'm just going to chime in real quick:

ESAM's tier list puts Robin exactly where I think he/she should be. Although there are some other questionable placements, somewhere around 15-20 seems good for Robin atm. She does surprisingly well against most of the top tiers to be any lower.

 

[Vipermoon]

Dont say falsehoods in an attempt to prove a point.

What you said is blatantly wrong. Cut that out.

Also frame data wise Roy and Marth are virtually equal.

So if Marth attacks slow then guess what?

I agree that that frame data is equal now in 1.1.0 or maybe even Marth's favor because even with Roy still having better IASA in some cases Marth destroys him in landing lag.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Im still not seeing how Marth is better. His edge guarding is not that great.

 

[A_Kae]

I agree that that frame data is equal now in 1.1.0 or maybe even Marth's favor because even with Roy still having better IASA in some cases Marth destroys him in landing lag.

numbers

|Nair|Fair|Bair|Uair|Dair
Marth|12|16|17|14|24
Roy|13|15|19|16|28

 

[Ffamran]

Im still not seeing how Marth is better. His edge guarding is not that great. All his moves are slow and he can't really do anything tricky off stage. And Roy being worse than Marth close up? I also disagree with this. They both have jab and dtilt for close range game, and they both have to space to be safe. They're also similar in speed on both moves. They both get decent rewards for landing the moves too. If anything it's pretty much even

What? Just want to nitpick here; Marth, Lucina, and Roy are pretty much the average to fast sword wielders. Fast would be Meta Knight and the Pits and medium to slow would be Toon Link, Link, Ike, and Shulk. The only non-Special move Roy has that is faster than Marth is Up Smash by 1 frame. Marth is faster than Roy with Side Smash, Fair, Bair, and Dair.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|5-7, (jab 2)|5-7
Dash Attack|13-16|13-16
Ftilt|8-11|8-10
Utilt|6-12|6-11
Dtilt|7-8|7-8
Side Smash|10-13|14-15
Up Smash|13-17|12-23
Down Smash|6-7 or 21-23|6-7 or 21-22
Nair|6-7, 15-21|6-7, 15-21
Fair|6-8|10-12
Bair|7-11|8-10
Uair|5-9|5-12
Dair|9-13|16-17
Grab|7-8|7-8
Dash Grab|8-9|8-9
Pivot Grab|9-10|9-10

If Marth is slow, then I don't want to know what Bowser, Ike, Shulk, Triple D, and even Ganondorf and Captain Falcon would be considered.

I'm not seeing how Marth does better vs a character like Sheik than Roy. Roy is much faster and actually gets rewarded for grabbing sheik. He also has agood tomohawk game unlike Marth, making getting a grab much easier and giving him more choices in neutral. They both lose horribly in the air because sheiks fair is just too fast. But at least Roy can do things once he gets in, once Marth gets in he'll throw and do maybe 15ish percent if he's lucky. Just about the only thing I'll give to marth in this is that if he lands sour jab 1 at 120+ he is almost guaranteed a kill with Up B (if he's closeish to the ledge).

Going to nitpick more; Roy is only faster when it comes to running, falling, and air speed. His run speed isn't that much faster. It isn't like going from Dr. Mario to Mario; it's more like Luigi to Mario. Roy's walk speed is only fast because of its initial walk speed and then pales in comparison to Marth's as Roy only has an average speed walk speed. Hey, at least it's not like Captain Falcon's walk speed.

Sheik's Fair isn't too fast. It's not frame 1 and it's not even frame 3 like the (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and Sheik Nair that people complain about. It's frame 5 and guess who else has a frame 5 Fair? Freaking Sonic, Wario, and Pac-Man except theirs isn't as oppressive as Sheik's. Marth's Fair is already in the realm of ZSS, Samus, Ryu, and Diddy levels of speed. Yes, single digit frames are fast, but they're not press and get hit instantly moves. Even moves like Ike's frame 12 Fair isn't that slow, but it's telegraphed. People know it's going to happen and have some leeway of reacting to it. Sonic, Wario, and Pac-Man? Probably not threatening and they don't have the ridiculous auto-cancel and low landing lag Sheik has for her Fair. Sonic has 26 frames of landing lag for his Fair. Wario and Pac-Man have 16 frames of landing lag, Wario's auto cancels before frame 4 and after frame 27, and Pac-Man before frame 1 and after frame 43. Sheik does not give a flying **** when she has only 10 frames of landing lag and can auto-cancel before frame 4 and after frame 11 not to mention her ground speed and her air speed making it far more abusive.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Although there are some other questionable placements, somewhere around 15-20 seems good for Robin atm. She does surprisingly well against most of the top tiers to be any lower.

This claim is completely baseless.

 

[C0rvus]

Yeah Robin isn't top 20. No shot. Not saying he's bad, just saying there are a whole bunch of characters that are better than him. I am impressed by his MU spread, though. It's better than I expected.

Abadango has Ness so low. I'm honestly inclined to agree; Ness is a bit overrated imo. His recovery is far too exploitable and his neutral is a bit weak to be a top tier. But Abadango put him too low regardless. You cannot ignore his incredible kill throw and damage racking capabilities. And he doesn't have a single bad aerial.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Yeah Robin isn't top 20. No shot. Not saying he's bad, just saying there are a whole bunch of characters that are better than him. I am impressed by his MU spread, though. It's better than I expected.

Abadango has Ness so low. I'm honestly inclined to agree; Ness is a bit overrated imo. His recovery is far too exploitable and his neutral is a bit weak to be a top tier. But Abadango put him too low regardless. You cannot ignore his incredible kill throw and damage racking capabilities. And he doesn't have a single bad aerial.

...
Dair? >.>

 

[C0rvus]

It's not BAD per say. As far as dair spikes go, it's not that bad. The thing even got buffed this patch. Sure, he might benefit from like a combo breaker, but his nair is good at that. He can't have everything.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

It's not BAD per say. As far as dair spikes go, it's not that bad. The thing even got buffed this patch. Sure, he might benefit from like a combo breaker, but his nair is good at that. He can't have everything.

Yeah I know I'm just nitpicking. I'm not sure how much Ness rep Japan has but that could be a key factor in his decision.

 

[Meru.]

Here's the rest:

High combo power and edge-guarding ability. Rage up-air and up-smash are both extremely strong. Doesn't have any approach other than turnips, DA, dash grab, and side-b.

what. the. ****.

Btw you made a translation error, Abadango says rage Fair, not Uair Thanks a lot for the translations!

 

[Greward]

It's not BAD per say. As far as dair spikes go, it's not that bad. The thing even got buffed this patch. Sure, he might benefit from like a combo breaker, but his nair is good at that. He can't have everything.

Ness' dair is one of the worst dairs in the game, if not the worst. Gunner's also looks pretty bad.

 

[Jucchan]

Btw you made a translation error, Abadango says rage Fair, not Uair Thanks a lot for the translations!

Nice catch.

 

[Gawain]

What? Just want to nitpick here; Marth, Lucina, and Roy are pretty much the average to fast sword wielders. Fast would be Meta Knight and the Pits and medium to slow would be Toon Link, Link, Ike, and Shulk. The only non-Special move Roy has that is faster than Marth is Up Smash by 1 frame. Marth is faster than Roy with Side Smash, Fair, Bair, and Dair.


If Marth is slow, then I don't want to know what Bowser, Ike, Shulk, Triple D, and even Ganondorf and Captain Falcon would be considered.


Going to nitpick more; Roy is only faster when it comes to running, falling, and air speed. His run speed isn't that much faster. It isn't like going from Dr. Mario to Mario; it's more like Luigi to Mario. Roy's walk speed is only fast because of its initial walk speed and then pales in comparison to Marth's as Roy only has an average speed walk speed. Hey, at least it's not like Captain Falcon's walk speed.

Sheik's Fair isn't too fast. It's not frame 1 and it's not even frame 3 like the (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and Sheik Nair that people complain about. It's frame 5 and guess who else has a frame 5 Fair? Freaking Sonic, Wario, and Pac-Man except theirs isn't as oppressive as Sheik's. Marth's Fair is already in the realm of ZSS, Samus, Ryu, and Diddy levels of speed. Yes, single digit frames are fast, but they're not press and get hit instantly moves. Even moves like Ike's frame 12 Fair isn't that slow, but it's telegraphed. People know it's going to happen and have some leeway of reacting to it. Sonic, Wario, and Pac-Man? Probably not threatening and they don't have the ridiculous auto-cancel and low landing lag Sheik has for her Fair. Sonic has 26 frames of landing lag for his Fair. Wario and Pac-Man have 16 frames of landing lag, Wario's auto cancels before frame 4 and after frame 27, and Pac-Man before frame 1 and after frame 43. Sheik does not give a flying **** when she has only 10 frames of landing lag and can auto-cancel before frame 4 and after frame 11 not to mention her ground speed and her air speed making it far more abusive.

When I'm talking about speed I am referring to movement and falling etc. Falling in particular adds significant advantage to a move on hit. And Sheiks fair isn't too fast? Its one of the fastest forward hitting aerials in the game.

And to the other responses, instead of posting silly images or accusing me of lying, how about you explain why his ledge guarding is so great in this game? Because I'm not seeing it even compare to stuff like Sheik or Rosa etc, or being that hard to avoid at all to be honest. Instead of cherrypicking the only parts of my posts that you have an issue with how about discuss it?

Also I never said that Roy attacks in the air particularly fast. I said they both lost in the example I gave. I am saying that Roys speed, that is ground and falling etc since I guess I need to be perfectly specific, combined with his better throw game let's him beat shields better, which is arguably the number one most important trait to have in this game.

Again to be specific, when I said Marths move were slow I was referring to the situation of being offstage. He's not overly oppressive.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This claim is completely baseless.

Did you just tell the best Robin his mu claims are baseless?

 

[Ffamran]

When I'm talking about speed I am referring to movement and falling etc. Falling in particular adds significant advantage to a move on hit. And Sheiks fair isn't too fast? Its one of the fastest forward hitting aerials in the game.

Like I said, it's not a frame 1 or frame 3 aerial. Even as one of the fastest Fairs in the game, it's not one of the fastest aerials. If Sheik's Fair was frame 3, we'd not only question why, but also what the hell the developers were thinking. Right now, we're only questioning why it has a ridiculous auto-cancel and a ridiculous hitbox. Frame 1 and people would stop playing the game because that would be stupid as hell.

If Sheik's Fair is too fast then so is Sonic, Pac-Man, Wario, and let's add 1 frame slower Fairs of Marth, Diddy, Ryu, Samus, and ZSS as well. We all know Diddy and Ryu's Fair usage. If Sheik's Fair is too fast then I don't know what (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and Sheik's Nairs (3) would be considered, what Meta Knight and Lucario's Dair (4) be considered, or what pre-patch Diddy's Uair (3), post-patch Diddy and (Dr.) Mario's Uair (4) would be.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Did you just tell the best Robin his mu claims are baseless?

Yes. There was no explaination as to which matchups she wins, why she wins them, or anything.

 

[Dathx]

Yes. There was no explaination as to which matchups she wins, why she wins them, or anything.

Like I said, I wanted to "chime in real quick" because I was/am busy. If you're interested in something specifically I can elaborate. But I'm not about to write 10+ MU descriptions.

 

[Nobie]

When I'm talking about speed I am referring to movement and falling etc. Falling in particular adds significant advantage to a move on hit. And Sheiks fair isn't too fast? Its one of the fastest forward hitting aerials in the game.

And to the other responses, instead of posting silly images or accusing me of lying, how about you explain why his ledge guarding is so great in this game? Because I'm not seeing it even compare to stuff like Sheik or Rosa etc, or being that hard to avoid at all to be honest. Instead of cherrypicking the only parts of my posts that you have an issue with how about discuss it?

Also I never said that Roy attacks in the air particularly fast. I said they both lost in the example I gave. I am saying that Roys speed, that is ground and falling etc since I guess I need to be perfectly specific, combined with his better throw game let's him beat shields better, which is arguably the number one most important trait to have in this game.

Again to be specific, when I said Marths move were slow I was referring to the situation of being offstage. He's not overly oppressive.

Roy's high movement specs are ideal for just getting in and wrecking face. He can chase down just about anyone and apply pressure. Everything about his character is geared towards high-offense pressure with a bit of clever spacing. This can be seen in how, while he has one of the best air speeds in the game, his actual ability to change directions in the air is abysmal, like Little Mac bad.

Marth however, even if he doesn't move as quickly through the air, and doesn't fall as quickly, has a lot more overall maneuverability. Combined with a sword that better rewards spacing and you just have two very different characters.

Roy tries to fight the high tiers on their own terms, while Marth tries to play the game he's meant for, which is spacing.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Like I said, it's not a frame 1 or frame 3 aerial. Even as one of the fastest Fairs in the game, it's not one of the fastest aerials. If Sheik's Fair was frame 3, we'd not only question why, but also what the hell the developers were thinking. Right now, we're only questioning why it has a ridiculous auto-cancel and a ridiculous hitbox. Frame 1 and people would stop playing the game because that would be stupid as hell.

If Sheik's Fair is too fast then so is Sonic, Pac-Man, Wario, and let's add 1 frame slower Fairs of Marth, Diddy, Ryu, Samus, and ZSS as well. We all know Diddy and Ryu's Fair usage. If Sheik's Fair is too fast then I don't know what (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and Sheik's Nairs (3) would be considered, what Meta Knight and Lucario's Dair (4) be considered, or what pre-patch Diddy's Uair (3), post-patch Diddy and (Dr.) Mario's Uair (4) would be.

Honestly don't think people would bat an eye. People accepted pre patch diddy and his BS uair. I doubt they'd care about sheik's fair.

 

[C0rvus]

Ness' dair is one of the worst dairs in the game, if not the worst. Gunner's also looks pretty bad.

I think it looks so bad partially because his other aerials are so great. But there is rarely a sitaution where it is even an option, let alone the best option. Dairs in this game are mediocre on the whole, so it's not a huge loss for Ness. Isn't it disjointed at least?

Toon Link's dair is pretty booty. But sometimes you can get cheesy kills at ledge with it at least. Bowser has a pretty bad one as well. It gets beaten by so much, it's rarely worth the risk. Ness can get spikes with his, but why risk going offstage when you can shoot a PK Thunder or two? No commitment, no risk. Could lead to a stage spike.

 

[Gawain]

Like I said, it's not a frame 1 or frame 3 aerial. Even as one of the fastest Fairs in the game, it's not one of the fastest aerials. If Sheik's Fair was frame 3, we'd not only question why, but also what the hell the developers were thinking. Right now, we're only questioning why it has a ridiculous auto-cancel and a ridiculous hitbox. Frame 1 and people would stop playing the game because that would be stupid as hell.

If Sheik's Fair is too fast then so is Sonic, Pac-Man, Wario, and let's add 1 frame slower Fairs of Marth, Diddy, Ryu, Samus, and ZSS as well. We all know Diddy and Ryu's Fair usage. If Sheik's Fair is too fast then I don't know what (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and Sheik's Nairs (3) would be considered, what Meta Knight and Lucario's Dair (4) be considered, or what pre-patch Diddy's Uair (3), post-patch Diddy and (Dr.) Mario's Uair (4) would be.

Its not just about how fast the moves come out, but how much cooldown they have. You are oversimplifying it.

 

[Ffamran]

Honestly don't think people would bat an eye. People accepted pre patch diddy and his BS uair. I doubt they'd care about sheik's fair.

It would add to reasons against her Fair. Once people figured out Diddy's Uair was frame 3, people used that like it was a sin against all game development. Fun fact: Diddy, like most characters, had their frame data copied and pasted from past games. Fox's stupid auto-cancel? Same as Brawl's. This as I said can be detrimental to the game when games have different engines. Slight alterations such as removal of auto-canceling on projectiles revealed the true end lag that was always there like Fox and Falco's Blaster or moves that weren't so abusive become even more abusive like Diddy's Uair. Or other ramifications like how characters with frame 3 Nairs can mash a button and interrupt practically everything. Little Mac can do it too, but he's usually negative on hit with his frame 1 Nair.

Even Ike's frame 12 Fair isn't slow, but it's slow enough there's leeway and there's indication of when and why Ike would use Fair. That's pretty much the same for almost all moves that aren't frame 16? and above is when things are easier to react to. Anything below frame 10 is basically beyond human reaction even if you know it's coming. You'd have to be like 10 steps ahead of Sheik to be able to counter her Fair. You'd have to predict when, where, why and then what she does before that, what she does after that, and what she does during that. You'd have to predict her movement which considering she's one of the most mobile character, isn't exactly easy compared to Ike who while fast in the air, is pretty damn linear. If he's in the air and is facing towards you, Ike is limited to frame 12 and above moves if he chooses to use an aerial - 7 and above if he's facing away. If he lands, he's going to be limited to frame 4 and above moves which is fast, eh? Add in how he lands which would put either 2 frames or 4 frames for soft landing and hard landing and then factor in if the Ike player picks that option quickly before the opponent realizes what's he doing. That means Ike is limited to either a frame 6 or frame 8 and above moves. Hell, he could land and screw up by jabbing instead of grabbing. Well, darn it, Ike, now you're open to a grab.

And like I said again, I'm nitpicking. I mean would people care if most of the cast had frame 1 jabs and the slowest jab was frame 7? No, but if that frame 1 jab was Captain Falcon's, people would certainly use it against him and call it broken. If Sheik's Fair was frame 2 instead, people would still be ****** even if everyone's aerials were faster by 3 frames. When Diddy's Uair became frame 4, people freaked out and complained it was nerfed too hard. It's still an almost unreactable move. What really got nerfed aside from damage was its hitbox so it doesn't scoop people up below him and become more or less the best aerial Diddy has. It no longer has sex kick properties, so Nair actually has a purpose than being a fancy move to throw out.

Its not just about how fast the moves come out, but how much cooldown they have. You are oversimplifying it.

Which I already mentioned in the previous post by pointing out how Sonic has significant landing lag on his Fair and Pac-Man and Wario can't auto-cancel it and have average landing lag. Sheik on the other hand does not give a damn when her mobility specs and Fair's properties more or less make it a slap-happy move for her.

 

[Nu~]

Here's the rest:

I think people have started to recognize his strength. His up-smash and combos are strong. His up-b recovery has invincibility and is actually good. Definitely is at a disadvantage against Sheik and Sonic.

He has been getting slightly nerfed. B-air and u-air have less power so I think there will be times where you will die from them at unexpectedly low percents anymore. However, b-air still packs a punch, and landing u-air to knee is too strong.

Another character that people have started to recognize. It goes without saying that DA to u-airs to up-b is strong. You can also set up DA from down-throw. His weaknesses are that his only approaches are DA and grab, and that he gets comboed because of his aerial speed and weight. He doesn't have a combo breaker, so why not make his n-air hitbox come out as fast as the animation?

I don't really think he's strong, or rather I don't struggle against him, but depending on your character it's hard to hit him and he doesn't let you land. His recovery is strong too. Of course, it's bad that his only killing options are up-throw thunder and the off-stage game. He has no trouble doing well against the high tiers, but I feel he struggles against some low tiers.

His neutral game and combos are strong. His weaknesses are that he gets comboed and has a weak recovery, but his ability to quickly rack up damage makes up for it. Because his rapid jab combos better now he can safely get damage when the opponent at lower %, in exchange for losing his jab to jab combos. The matchup against Rosalina is tough because of Luma.

People say that he got weaker, but his strong neutral game hasn't really changed aside from not being able to throw out u-air since f-air, monkey flip, and banana are still strong. I think he's very good against low tiers. His recovery is also pretty good. People say that he struggles to kill now, but it's just that his killing power pre-patch was absurd. Now he can kill with d-tilt to up-smash, banana to smash, and b-air.

I said he was strong but he lacks a way to deal with shields. F-air and jab are extremely good. He seems to struggle against characters like Sonic, Sheik, and Rosalina.

High combo power and edge-guarding ability. Rage f-air and up-smash are both extremely strong. Doesn't have any approach other than turnips, DA, dash grab, and side-b.

His moves have high hit-stun so I thought he would be bad, but it turns out he doesn't need to win the neutral. If you get 3 f-airs, the opponent's at kill %! Even if you're losing in % if the opponent has about 50% you can probably make something happen with Shoryuken. It's disappointing that similar to CF, he can't recover without his double jump intact.

Good around the ledge, gets rage easily because of his weight, and has the fart. Since people have figured it out now, n-air to fart won't work against top players. He'll want to center the game around biting and grabs and somehow setup a fart a different way. Also, his neutral is bad, only really having f-air. His inability to easily take care of lower tier characters is also a weakness.

I don't feel a need to seriously think of a matchup chart for him, but b-air, u-air, aura sphere, and force palm are strong. If you get 2 or 3 reads you win. He's bad against characters that kill early like Rosalina and Wario.

Side-smash is strong! Pikmin cycling is inefficient, and you can't do anything if you get hit when you don't have a Pikmin on hand. His recovery is on the good side, but he's bad at landing. However, his side-smash and throw combos at low percents are strong.

Strong on the ground. I feel that his multiple jumps make up for his weak aerials. He doesn't have any broken moves but he has everything.

Movement centered around gyro, down-throw u-air, and up-smash are all strong. If you don't take his gyro, he'll set it up on the ledge and you'll have trouble getting back on stage. His rolls, landing, and recovery are weak.

His throw combos are what make him strong. The nerf to fireball makes him struggle in the neutral. I don't think that he's A tier because of his weaker neutral game. He struggles against characters that run away.

All of his specials are good, and he can camp out all except for a few characters. It's strong that he can go on the offensive when he has a fruit in hand. He doesn't seem to be able to beat characters in tiers above him. He's weak against characters that won't let him charge a fruit. His throws are weak too, so please give him throw combos!

Return of the Water Shuriken, as well as f-tilt that can be used in down-throw combos and the neutral. I think that you can call him a semi-strong character. His weakness are still that he has no anti-air for those in front of him and that his punishes out of shield are weak.

His combos with bombs and boomerang, up-tilt, and up-smash are strong. At around 80% he can kill with bomb to f-air. His floatiness despite not having a way to land aside from bombs and the risk of grabbing not outweighing the reward are his weaknesses.

Similar to Pac-man. Depending on the character matchups are harder for Duck Hunt. Though he's strong near the ledge, if he gets sent off-stage he can't come back a lot of the time.

Has good combo breaking tools. His approaches are only DA and grab, and the rest are all moves you throw out and hope the opponent will get hit, so he has trouble when the opponent punishes his landings. His recovery is bad as well, if you get hit by PK Thunder before Ness does Ness just falls to his death.

Up-smash, DA, jab, and down-throw are strong. However, he has many characters against whom he can't win the neutral or land.

He has many moves like d-tilt, DA, and Shadow Ball that he can use in the neutral. But, his large hurtbox and light weight make his easy to kill. He pretty much doesn't lose to low tiers, but many matchups against high tiers are extremely tough. However, his ability to win off of a hard read or something is high. (In Japanese, it's described as One-Chance ability)

His neutral using Metal Blade and Mega Buster is strong. Slow characters will probably get shut out just by Mega Buster. His smaller grab range hurts his neutral though. His inability to rack up damage and bad recovery are glaring weaknesses. If someone can perfect high-damage Metal Blade combos his placing might change.

Has throw combos and has strong smashes and b-air. A rare character that is both heavy and fast. But, his lack of approach makes the neutral tough and he has a weak recovery.

I love how Abadango finds the Pikachu v. Pacman matchup to be great for pacman, while most pacmains on this site believe it's bad for us.

I agree with his thoughts on pacman almost whole-heartedly.

Buuuut, grab combos WOULD be amazing...

Forget everything I said. Pac-Man is F tier. Soo bad. Requires universal buffs.

 

[san.]

Yep, that's why Ike is mostly defensive and Roy fails because he has that same problem but needs to be offensive while also lacking autocancels. Ike's just going to space. I have a different opinion on some other things but not going to nitpick lol.

Ike has 1 more option though, which is to just bair into them (while facing forward). Bair covers Ike's body and pulls them back.