Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Gawain]

I want to talk about recovering. To be more precise, edgeguarding. Why don't we see more people edgeguarding? What I'm gonna write here may seem weird but just hear it out: From a defensive standpoint(recovering after you're launched), Little mac and Captain Falcon have an equal recovery.

We all know how to fight Mac right? Throw him off stage and get a gimp from there for early kills. Not too hard right? So why don't we do that for Falcon? It's really easy to edgeguard him. If he up-b's high or side-b's to the ledge, use D-smash to knock him away. If he up-b's to the ledge, drop down and Dair him or something. Falcon is dead. Why aren't we seeing more of this?

And it's not just Falcon either. There's also Olimar. His winged pikmin have a stamina system like ROB. Just keep knocking him away and he'll die eventually. Or Villager for that matter. Or ganondorf. Or Wii Fit trainer. Or Fox. Or Falco. Or ANY character with a vertical focused up-b (Marth, Lucina, Shulk, Sonic, megaman, Roy, etc.) Can all die from one hit offstage. Why are we not seeing more aggressive edgeguards? We're already so aggressive against Mac because we KNOW that we can get easy gimps. All the characters mention here are just as bad as Mac at recovering. They're predictable, without a hitbox (or at least a good hitbox) and they're easy to gimp. When will people start realizing this? Why aren't more characters getting the Little Mac treatment?

People don't edgeguard often because it's predictable. You're GOING to attack them. If they airdodge, then they just got back to the stage for free and possibly before you, putting you in disadvantage now. Now, combine that with your character being MUCH better at covering ledge getup options, and you see why people don't edgeguard. Characters like Roy have amazing ledge getup coverage. They benefit more from their opponent hanging on the ledge then chasing them off stage super far. The reward differential is not much better, so most people opt to stay on the stage where they have more control.

 

[Planty]

@ Blobface
Did you even read what I wrote? You just have to wait for him to start his up-b and then hit him. If he still has his DJ (which is unlikely. Unless he gets launched at 0%, he needs it to get near the ledge) then you go back to ledge and hold it, let him use his DJ, then when he goes for the up-b, ledgedrop and Bair him. Easy kill.

@ Gawain
is nobody actually reading what I write? Like seriously. I've gotten then same answer a bunch of times. You have to interrupt their up-b. And there's nothing they could do about it.

Even if you don't do that, you could still gimp them. Say Falcon has burned his DJ and he's at a distance where Falcon dive will barely reach the ledge, and you go to hit him, if he airdodges, then he's too far away to recover and he dies.

 

[Jabejazz]

@ Blobface
Did you even read what I wrote? You just have to wait for him to start his up-b and then hit him. If he still has his DJ (which is unlikely. Unless he gets launched at 0%, he needs it to get near the ledge) then you go back to ledge and hold it, let him use his DJ, then when he goes for the up-b, ledgedrop and Bair him. Easy kill.

End of Up-B has an uppercut, so it's not exactly fool-proof either.
There's also Side-B you need to be wary of. Ganondorf is a guy that can be easily edgeguarded, but he can definitely bring you with him if you're careless.

We know people need to edgeguard more, it's been a recurring topic in this thread for the past few days.
But you need to stop to make it sound like it's braindead easy (especially when you claim WFT and Villager recoveries are easy to edgeguard, like what the ****).

You make it sound like edgeguarding is some one-dimensional scenario where using Up-B instantly puts someone in a state where every edgeguard attempt works 100%.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Where's the idea coming from that ducking is the ultimate answer to ZSS? You're not gonna punish stuff like spaced side B if you're in a crouching position. Sure it helps you neutralize some of her stuff if you time it right but it doesn't get you one single step closer to actually beating her. She also has dtilt and dsmash to how low opponents - both are very solid and safe bread and butter options in neutral.

Seems like a lot of people confuse ZSS with WFT.

 

[Gawain]

@ Gawain
is nobody actually reading what I write? Like seriously. I've gotten then same answer a bunch of times. You have to interrupt their up-b. And there's nothing they could do about it.

Even if you don't do that, you could still gimp them. Say Falcon has burned his DJ and he's at a distance where Falcon dive will barely reach the ledge, and you go to hit him, if he airdodges, then he's too far away to recover and he dies.

You asked why, I gave you an answer. That's the reason why. People want to ensure they have stage control. If you stay on stage, you can respond to recovering high on reaction. If they grab the ledge you just cover their options and keep them offstage. It's not hard.

 

[Blobface]

"If he's burned his DJ and Up-B can only barely reach the ledge..."

That's a very drastic assumption, especially considering that 95% of the cast is dead in that situation.

 

[FullMoon]

A lot of what makes Greninja's Hydro Pump so good for edgeguarding is that it's a very low risk tool because at the same time you can hit a good distance offstage in a variety of directions, you can still keep yourself safe onstage.

A few characters don't really care about HP much ( come to mind right off) but against most of the others it either puts them into a bad position or kills them if it hits and there's pretty much no reason not to try.

 

[Routa]

A lot of what makes Greninja's Hydro Pump so good for edgeguarding is that it's a very low risk tool because at the same time you can hit a good distance offstage in a variety of directions, you can still keep yourself safe onstage.

A few characters don't really care about HP much ( come to mind right off) but against most of the others it either puts them into a bad position or kills them if it hits and there's pretty much no reason not to try.

I think you forgot Sir Wa himself.

 

[Planty]

End of Up-B has an uppercut, so it's not exactly fool-proof either.
There's also Side-B you need to be wary of. Ganondorf is a guy that can be easily edgeguarded, but he can definitely bring you with him if you're careless.

We know people need to edgeguard more, it's been a recurring topic in this thread for the past few days.
But you need to stop to make it sound like it's braindead easy (especially when you claim WFT and Villager recoveries are easy to edgeguard, like what the ****).

You make it sound like edgeguarding is some one-dimensional scenario where using Up-B instantly puts someone in a state where every edgeguard attempt works 100%.

The end of Ganon's up-b uppercut thing rarely works. You usually hit him before the end of the move. I can say that from experience. His side-b is a command grab too. No hitbox. Easy to hit him out of it. Not hard to react to either.

And villager IS easy to edgeguard. his balloons are slow and predictable with no hitbox. It's like a better version of Duck hunts recovery. It's easy to gimp. Sure if you hit Villager offstage, it'll rarely be an instant gimp. You just got to keep hitting him. Eventually the balloons will run out of air from not being on the ground to long and he'll die. Does he have any answer to that?

And yes, if somebody has an up-b that's predictable, without a hitbox (or at least a good one), then it's not hard to edgeguard. At all. A lot of you guys are working through theorycrafting. If you tried edgeguarding, you'd realise that it's not hard to gimp a large portion of the cast.

 

[Jehtt]

I don't know who you are playing against @ P Planty , but a good player isn't easy to gimp. They will mix up the timing and position of their recovery. Some characters are easier to hit of course. Those without a hitbox or whose recoveries leave them helpless have less options. But a good player will not recover in the same fashion every time.
I think you're oversimplifying the concept in general. Even against characters with a no-damage recovery, chasing them off the stage is not always a risk worth taking. If you mess up, you're now in a bad position.
This is especially true if you're at a higher percent than your opponent, since if they read your ledge getup option after a failed edge guard attempt, you could die. There are also times where your opponent is close enough to the stage that DJAirDodge > Up B would be really hard to hit them out of if they have a fast recovery that ledge snaps. In these situations, it's usually better to stay on stage and try to punish their getup so that you can force them into a better position to edgeguard.

I feel that stating that gimping someone is as easy as "hitting them out of their up b" is a massive overstatement. Edge guarding is far deeper than that, with Risk v Reward factors that you must consider.

 

[meleebrawler]

The end of Ganon's up-b uppercut thing rarely works. You usually hit him before the end of the move. I can say that from experience. His side-b is a command grab too. No hitbox. Easy to hit him out of it. Not hard to react to either.

And villager IS easy to edgeguard. his balloons are slow and predictable with no hitbox. It's like a better version of Duck hunts recovery. It's easy to gimp. Sure if you hit Villager offstage, it'll rarely be an instant gimp. You just got to keep hitting him. Eventually the balloons will run out of air from not being on the ground to long and he'll die. Does he have any answer to that?

And yes, if somebody has an up-b that's predictable, without a hitbox (or at least a good one), then it's not hard to edgeguard. At all. A lot of you guys are working through theorycrafting. If you tried edgeguarding, you'd realise that it's not hard to gimp a large portion of the cast.

But if they're full (which they will be 99% of the time), because of how far they can take him Villager he can wait until he's near the bottom blastzone until you make your move, which he can then simply dodge by moving back then getting back to the stage while you're off. Villager's recovery is not predictable at all unless the player is uncreative. Oh, and he can also throw Lloids and slingshots at you while doing so.

And I think you're also underrating the threat of airdodges to those lacking lingering aerials.

Depending on character you're edgeguarding it may be best to not go offstage unless you know they have little options or until you can determine habits.

 

[Jabejazz]

And villager IS easy to edgeguard. his balloons are slow and predictable with no hitbox. It's like a better version of Duck hunts recovery. It's easy to gimp. Sure if you hit Villager offstage, it'll rarely be an instant gimp. You just got to keep hitting him. Eventually the balloons will run out of air from not being on the ground to long and he'll die. Does he have any answer to that?

No, but that never really happens if your Villager isn't mentally challenged.

And yes, if somebody has an up-b that's predictable, without a hitbox (or at least a good one), then it's not hard to edgeguard. At all. A lot of you guys are working through theorycrafting. If you tried edgeguarding, you'd realise that it's not hard to gimp a large portion of the cast.

You're right. We never played Smash and edgeguarding is probably a braindead binary concept. UpB = Dead. That's probably why we see people dying at sub 50% all the time at top level of play.

 

[xIvan321]

Being a Mega Man main, I could say his recovery is a lot less bad than a lot of people think. For instance, his recovery lets him do two things: hold his jump and can recover back on stage with no lag if you replace the up b lag with another move. (Those are really good perks imo) @ P Planty when it comes to Mega Man, you'd actually have a harder time gimping his recovery than a lot of those characters you mentioned. The only time he can't really do anything is if he's launched at a straight angle, forcing him to recover from a far downward angle. He definitely doesn't make it back. With the ability to land back on stage makes thirsty edge guarders think twice before they go for they even attempt the gimp. (they'll lose stage control.)

To chime in on Abadangos list, I feel like he got a lot of things wrong for my character. In terms of grab: is throw combos are average, his grab range is fine. In terms of racking damage, I think he's fine right there with his up air combos and kill set ups mostly against characters that matter. (cept maybe sheik.) Unless of course your only approach would be pellet and the occasional grab you'll get. The only real weakness really is simply frame data, and some of the moves like d-smash, d-tilt. fair need to be buffed to have faster start up and end lag. Fair should auto cancel from a short hop while d-smash shouldn't be so unsafe on hit due to sour spots nor shield. D-tilt looks like it could combo if it didn't have any end lag and hand its hitboxes readjusted. Still, I wouldn't put him that low either.

 

[Routa]

About edgeguarding... With some characters it is better to stay on stage while edgeguarding. For example Ike has one of the best edgeguarding tools in game that he uses on stage. Also if you go for off stage edgeguarding with Ike... Well lets say you have a big chance to get yourself killed due to how Ike's Up-B works. What I'm trying to say is that in most cases it is just way too risky to go for off stage edgeguard.

 

[meleebrawler]

What people should probably be trying to do more is ledge trumps more so than typical offstage edgeguarding.

 

[Routa]

What people should probably be trying to do more is ledge trumps more so than typical offstage edgeguarding.

But then again not every character has Mii Swordfighter's Bair to follow up with.

 

[FullMoon]

I think you forgot Sir Wa himself.

Wario depends. If he doesn't have his bike then his recovery becomes pretty gimpable by Hydro Pump I believe. Sure, most of the time Wario will have his bike but it's something to consider if Greninja manages to smack him out of the bike or something.

He's still one of the hardest characters to gimp with HP though, thanks to having really good air speed as well.

 

[meleebrawler]

But then again not every character has Mii Swordfighter's Bair to follow up with.

Even for those who can't get true followups from it still robs the opponent of ledge invincibility.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ledge trumping never works if the opponent buffers their ledge option in advance. It will eventually become near useless in many matchups.

 

[outfoxd]

Ledge trumping never works if the opponent buffers their ledge option in advance. It will eventually become near useless in many matchups.

Doesnt it become anothee option then if someone is stopping themselves from being trumped?

Coulf i feint the trump and punish the option?

Cant watch video. At work.

 

[meleebrawler]

Ledge trumping never works if the opponent buffers their ledge option in advance. It will eventually become near useless in many matchups.

But then it is possible to read such an option, right? Especially if you fake going for one.

It's not the be-all end-all solution to edgeguarding but it's still a useful tool to keep in mind if the opponent likes the edge a bit too much.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yes, but, then you're reading Ledge Jump, Ledge Roll, or Ledge Attack (or purposely letting themselves get trumped because you can't react, but only pick an option). If you guess incorrectly, the opponent is generally in a good spot. Jump allows many characters to return to neutral, Roll gives them massive space control (since their opponent is now cornered/near the ledge instead), and Attack can put you offstage or in some cases even hit you into the edge's lip to your death.

You can read all three of those options much better/more reliably while on-stage instead, IMO.

The problem with a ledge trump "feint" is that if you don't grab the ledge immediately after they do, you have almost no time to actually punish them, since you're still forced to hold the ledge for 20 frames, but if you do grab it immediately, they have almost 20 frames to react to it and easily buffer a ledge option. It's a lose/lose for the aggressor in the vast majority of cases.

 

[outfoxd]

Yes, but, then you're reading Ledge Jump, Ledge Roll, or Ledge Attack (or purposely letting themselves get trumped because you can't react, but only pick an option). If you guess incorrectly, the opponent is generally in a good spot. Jump allows many characters to return to neutral, Roll gives them massive space control (since their opponent is now cornered/near the ledge instead), and Attack can put you offstage or in some cases even hit you into the edge's lip to your death.

You can read all three of those options much better/more reliably while on-stage instead, IMO.

The problem with a ledge trump "feint" is that if you don't grab the ledge immediately after they do, you have almost no time to actually punish them, since you're still forced to hold the ledge for 20 frames, but if you do grab it immediately, they have almost 20 frames to react to it and easily buffer a ledge option. It's a lose/lose for the aggressor in the vast majority of cases.

By feint i mean scare them by trumping them a couple times, then staying onstage and occasionally faking like you might try.

Like a boxer landing a couple jabs then working off the expectation to fake one and land a hook instead to catch the response to the jab.. Still infeasible?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Ledge trumping never works if the opponent buffers their ledge option in advance. It will eventually become near useless in many matchups.

Look at Nairo, he reads the buffer and just goes for nAir. He doesn't care much what the getup option is this way. Even if it doesn't hit, it's an excellent pressure tool.

 

[Planty]

I don't know who you are playing against @@Planty, but a good player isn't easy to gimp. They will mix up the timing and position of their recovery. Some characters are easier to hit of course. Those without a hitbox or whose recoveries leave them helpless have less options. But a good player will not recover in the same fashion every time.
I think you're oversimplifying the concept in general. Even against characters with a no-damage recovery, chasing them off the stage is not always a risk worth taking. If you mess up, you're now in a bad position.
This is especially true if you're at a higher percent than your opponent, since if they read your ledge getup option after a failed edge guard attempt, you could die. There are also times where your opponent is close enough to the stage that DJAirDodge > Up B would be really hard to hit them out of if they have a fast recovery that ledge snaps. In these situations, it's usually better to stay on stage and try to punish their getup so that you can force them into a better position to edgeguard.

I feel that stating that gimping someone is as easy as "hitting them out of their up b" is a massive overstatement. Edge guarding is far deeper than that, with Risk v Reward factors that you must consider.

You guys are being so vague with your answers.

Let's take Falcon. he has 3 options:
1- up-b high and fall to the ledge.
2- side-b to the ledge
3- up-b to the ledge normally.

No reads are required to gimp Falcon. Just reaction. Wait at the ledge and if he picks option 1 or 2, it's an easy d-smash which will likely gimp. if he picks option 3, just drop off the ledge and knock him away with something. All you need to have is reaction speed better than my grandma's.

So now now can someone ACTUALLY give me a rebuttal instead of: Well good players mix it up!!! You're wrong!!!

@ xIvan321
How does megaman recover? He up-b's to the ledge, no? Just run off stage and Dair him or whatever. By that point he's probably burned his DJ due to the nature of his recovery and he won't make it back. If he decides to up-b early and jump later, just wait at the ledge and D-smash. Jumps don't snap to ledges.

You're right. We never played Smash and edgeguarding is probably a braindead binary concept. UpB = Dead. That's probably why we see people dying at sub 50% all the time at top level of play.

Thank you, @ Jabejazz , for those words of wisdom. It really explains a lot and counters my entire argument.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That requires you to be able to trump opponents, which I explained can be avoided altogether by opponents if they just pick one of three very varied options.

Far as Nairo is concerned, yes, some characters have great aerial mobility that can significantly threaten multiple options at once, but the overwhelming majority of the cast cannot do so.

 

[C0rvus]

If my opponent shows me he can ledge trump, then I am likely going to start making my ledge decisions much faster in fear of a trump back air gimp. So it does add that level of pressure like any other tool a character has.

 

[outfoxd]

If my opponent shows me he can ledge trump, then I am likely going to start making my ledge decisions much faster in fear of a trump back air gimp. So it does add that level of pressure like any other tool a character has.

Right. I feel it means you've at least hindered the option of the opponent waiting a second on the ledge.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Edge trumping would've been a much more interesting mechanic if you couldn't buffer an option to avoid it. The current way that its frame advantage works would have been great that way.

In that case, after an Up-B, would you hold Down to go past the ledge and hit the opponent trying to get to the ledge ASAP? Would you hold Down for a bit and wait until an opponent grabs the ledge, turning the tables around? Would you not hold Down for fear of getting hit easily when you don't snap the ledge immediately? Would you be more inclined to recover high?

Smash 4 gives an awful lot of leeway for the player in traditionally disadvantageous situations.

 

[meleebrawler]

You guys are being so vague with your answers.

Let's take Falcon. he has 3 options:
1- up-b high and fall to the ledge.
2- side-b to the ledge
3- up-b to the ledge normally.

No reads are required to gimp Falcon. Just reaction. Wait at the ledge and if he picks option 1 or 2, it's an easy d-smash which will likely gimp. if he picks option 3, just drop off the ledge and knock him away with something. All you need to have is reaction speed better than my grandma's.

So now now can someone ACTUALLY give me a rebuttal instead of: Well good players mix it up!!! You're wrong!!!

@ xIvan321
How does megaman recover? He up-b's to the ledge, no? Just run off stage and Dair him or whatever. By that point he's probably burned his DJ due to the nature of his recovery and he won't make it back. If he decides to up-b early and jump later, just wait at the ledge and D-smash. Jumps don't snap to ledges.


Thank you, @ Jabejazz , for those words of wisdom. It really explains a lot and counters my entire argument.

OK we get it, Falcon is one of the easier characters to edgeguard. Does this apply to Sheik too?

Megaman can use Rush Coil before his second jump to preserve it (which is to say he'll only do it if it lets him come back without his second jump, or he knows his opponent will go deep to get him), plus he has a wall-jump. And if you spike him right out of his up b you might just bounce him right back into the spring to go even higher.

 

[Jucchan]

Ayuha confirmed to me via twitter that there would likely be cancels anyway and that allowing a top foreign player to enter is possible.

Who's the highest priority to send to Japan? I was thinking either Nairo or ESAM since they both play unique characters and weren't in Japan for the Niconico doubles thing.

 

[Planty]

@ meleebrawler
I just used Falcon as an example to stop getting the answer that good players mix it up. (it does apply to Ganon though...)
There's other characters too that are easy to gimp, like Marth, Lucina, Shulk, Mac(duh), any character with a duck hunt-esque recovery, etc.

And I covered megaman early up-b already. You just wait at the ledge and d-smash because his DJ won't snap to the ledge.

 

[meleebrawler]

@ meleebrawler
I just used Falcon as an example to stop getting the answer that good players mix it up. (it does apply to Ganon though...)
There's other characters too that are easy to gimp, like Marth, Lucina, Shulk, Mac(duh), any character with a duck hunt-esque recovery, etc.

And I covered megaman early up-b already. You just wait at the ledge and d-smash because his DJ won't snap to the ledge.

I just said that Megaman won't do the early up b unless that move alone suffices or the opponent has already left the stage. Otherwise there's no point to doing that.

No matter how easy a character may be to gimp, though, nothing will nullify the risk for missing.

 

[Asdioh]

Edge trumping would've been a much more interesting mechanic if you couldn't buffer an option to avoid it. The current way that its frame advantage works would have been great that way.

In that case, after an Up-B, would you hold Down to go past the ledge and hit the opponent trying to get to the ledge ASAP? Would you hold Down for a bit and wait until an opponent grabs the ledge, turning the tables around? Would you not hold Down for fear of getting hit easily when you don't snap the ledge immediately? Would you be more inclined to recover high?

I'm having serious deja vu
I see your point, but I think ledge trumping is fine as it is. If you're in a match where your opponent gets knocked offstage multiple times, you have plenty of opportunities to mix it up. Just standing at the edge, where you can instant runoff ledgegrab whenever you want, exerts pressure on the person recovering. They will almost always buffer a ledge option, and no matter what that option is, your character should have a way to cover multiple options at once. Eventually they might get used to being punished, so they wait, which lets you trump them... etc. It's basically the same scenario you're giving in terms of yomi, just different actions. The only thing I would want changed is that the angle people get knocked off at when they're trumped. It's inconsistent between characters, and some of them (like Sheik!) have far too easy of a time getting back onstage, without even having to use their recovery move. So many times I trump someone, but Bairing them is unviable (maybe make it so you can instantly let go of ledge when you trump someone?) so I go back on stage to punish their regrab vulnerability, but they don't even need to grab the ledge because they can easily just jump over it and hit me.

Smash 4 gives an awful lot of leeway for the player in traditionally disadvantageous situations.

This is probably exactly why people hated ledge-camping Customs Villager.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

(maybe make it so you can instantly let go of ledge when you trump someone?)

Goodness, if only.

The current system heavily favors characters who can cover multiple options at once and characters who can get out of disadvantaged states easily, both of which are usually predicated on good mobility/speed. I'd rather have a system that benefits everyone more equally, or even one that benefits the slower, more limited characters more. They need every advantage they can get, in most cases.

 

[Blobface]

I really like the idea of being able to let go of the ledge instantly when you trump someone, it would make trumping as a whole a lot more viable as an option since you get could guaranteed B-air's really easily.

And buffering getup options should bypass ledge options lest it turn into edgehogging 2.0, where having to grab the ledge becomes a death sentence.

 

[Wintropy]

Wario depends. If he doesn't have his bike then his recovery becomes pretty gimpable by Hydro Pump I believe. Sure, most of the time Wario will have his bike but it's something to consider if Greninja manages to smack him out of the bike or something.

He's still one of the hardest characters to gimp with HP though, thanks to having really good air speed as well.

HP gimps both of Pit's recoveries, right?

I know we discussed this in the MU thread before, but I don't know if I requested clarification. Does HP project a hitbox that Upperdash reflects, or does it just push back Upperdash the same way it would an object without a physical hitbox?

 

[juddy96]

Who's the highest priority to send to Japan? I was thinking either Nairo or ESAM since they both play unique characters and weren't in Japan for the Niconico doubles thing.

Yeah, one of those sound good, maybe Ally if they can't. Ayuha did say that they already asked some players but they welcome any candidates

 

[bc1910]

HP gimps both of Pit's recoveries, right?

I know we discussed this in the MU thread before, but I don't know if I requested clarification. Does HP project a hitbox that Upperdash reflects, or does it just push back Upperdash the same way it would an object without a physical hitbox?

It projects a hitbox that upperdash reflects. So when Pit gets hit he flies up and back towards the stage with tons of lag. You won't gimp upperdash at 0 with HP but you get a pretty easy punish, at higher % it should be a free Usmash or Fsmash kill.

 

[Makorel]

It projects a hitbox that upperdash reflects. So when Pit gets hit he flies up and back towards the stage with tons of lag. You won't gimp upperdash at 0 with HP but you get a pretty easy punish, at higher % it should be a free Usmash or Fsmash kill.

It depends on when you do it. I've had the projectiles from HP clank against Upperdash before but that's early on in the move. Later on Upperdash can be pushed like normal.

Also I wouldn't describe this as a reflection. Mario's cape reflects Upperdash definitely, but HP just pushes things around.