VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[Strong Badam]

zenith. i'm sure there will be

 

[OliClutch117]

So, what Peaches are going to be at Zenith?

 

[john!]

i'm probably going to be making an armada combo video.

any video clips you guys think i should include?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Should start with the clip where HBox bairs him and on hit he drops the bomb, which hits HBox and kills him at like 25%. APEX 2010 WSF set on Dreamland 64.

 

[PinkPrinz]

Im sort of new here, so idk where do ask stuff, but is there a guide anywhere for what to do against certain characters for Peach?

 

[Babatunde]

This is the thread if you want MU advice, just check the first page.
Also, OMG DOH, good stuff by you and Hbox in doubles! :D

 

[DoH]

God I watched those videos last night..

I am rusty as ****. Random Peach bombers ftl. I need a new controller

 

[PinkPrinz]

^^ thanks I guess I probably should have looked there first

^ didn't you almost beat hax and m2k single handedly though?

 

[DoH]

I also took hax to game 3 which got recorded, so there's that to look forward to

 

[Redd]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfS2WQJ6uJI

Already looked forward to it.

 

[DoH]

Damn roger going HAM with that upload.

Where's me vs nintendude?

 

[AozoraX]

DoH, were you doing shield drop Bairs on Yoshis and Dreamland? Looked like you were pulling off some sick platform tech...
But damn, how dyou even handle those Falcons?

 

[Ryobeat]

I also took hax to game 3 which got recorded, so there's that to look forward to

Great stuff DoH, you have a pretty aggressive playstyle, similar to mine, but your better LOL. I gotta take some notes.

 

[darkatma]

I was fairly impressed at stock 1 of game 2. I wish I could dsmash like that >_>

 

[PinkPrinz]

If falcon didn't have that dumb d-throw to knee combo the outcome could easily have been different. Is there even a way to DI out of that?

 

[Jayk]

Can't you like, di hard away, shake out of the tumble, and airdodge? I thought I saw a frame display thing of that, but I've never seen anyone actually do it.

 

[Xyzz]

Best thing imho is to mix up DI and see if he can actually react to that (they suck at that in general).

 

[Purpletuce]

I don't think it is ever guaranteed. You'll get out of It if you don't get read.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Read this: http://smashboards.com/threads/scar-talks-lean-melee-2012yotf.197123/page-151#post-8988396

Long story short: It combos if you don't DI it well.

 

[DoH]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VTgLhUjMXs

Here's me vs Nintendude for those of you looking for Sheik stuff.

 

[PinkPrinz]

Nice win DoH! although I see what you meant by random peach bombers lol. On a different note, would yall say that mostly its just best to DI throws down and away (I keep getting f-throwed daired by Marth as well)

 

[Heero Yuy]

Finally playing Melee again after a while...

Is the MU versus Jigglypuff like almost unwinnable? Couldn't help but frown when watching HBox's first couple matches with Armada (before he began using YL).

Friend and I (a Jigglypuff user) are about to have some friendlies tomorrow. How should I approach the wittle Pokemon puffball (because I doubt dash attacks are the answer)?

 

[AozoraX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VTgLhUjMXs

Here's me vs Nintendude for those of you looking for Sheik stuff.

Good stuff man... That being said, what things did you notice in the Sheik matchup that worked well for you? I saw Uairs connecting a lot since that Sheik was mainly airborne. I'm thinking of moves that can outdo a Sheik. Those Bairs were really annoying from what I saw.

 

[KirbyKaze]

DoH,

You seem to land on platforms a lot vs Sheik (and other characters, but let's focus on Sheik). Suggestion: float OOS FF through the platform when they hit your shield with a rising FJ bair or similar, since it allows you to get to the ground faster (better position for counterattacks or regaining centre stage) and it feels like you get zoned or pushed to the edge a lot as a result of needing to WD away from their intruding legs, which is a relatively weak position for Peach.

I also think you would benefit from simplifying how you position yourself to follow up after hitting an opponent onto platforms. It looks like in a lot of instances you get into position to hit certain options, cover others, chase them, or generally follow up pretty quickly but then you do an extra, unnecessary movement iteration (dash dance, WD into dash, etc) and the extra time costs you your window of opportunity (foe gets their shield out).

Just my two cents. Hope I see you sometime this summer. Anything coming up on EC?

 

[DoH]

Thanks KK.

I think the followup on platforms stems from my playing darkrain; I learned that an effective option was to waveland onto platforms after they miss a tech and downsmash, since it pushes them off the platform and they get vortex ***** by downsmash. But falcon's roll is slow, so it doesn't work as well vs other characters. I'm going to work on shield drops once I get a cube again.

Is there any advice you have for my matches vs hax?

Also vs Puff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6NNl-CioS74#t=726s

There's how I play her, hbox seems to approve

 

[DoH]

 

[Heero Yuy]

^ lol that made my night!

Anyhow DoH, I saw the segment of your video (and was VERY surprised with the outcome), and it helped a lot in those friendlies. Thanks!

 

[Babatunde]

Is the main objective of the Jigs vs Peach MU just to try to beat her in the air? I try this with FH bair walls in PM and from what i've seen with Armada playing the MU, FH turnip throw to floated nair seems to be effective.

 

[DoH]

You can't beat her in the air really. You can trick her into missing her bairs and punishing with your own. I had some matches with Mahone's puff last night that I think Epsilon might upload that are probably better for full matches.

 

[Purpletuce]

DoH, you played a little risky against Puff. I think M2K opted to not rest because he isn't too familiar with it(and probably thought he could win without it), but a Puff main would have rested that stock twice. You rolled right into Puff (which is hard to see coming), and dash attacked his shield (super easy).

Was it nerves, or do you always play risky vs. Puffs?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I basically just try to trap her on the ground or low to the ground by throwing a turnip just over and behind her head if she's facing me to cut off her DJ away zones and therefore force her to stay, move forward, or drop to the ground (and then you just plough through her attacks with fair if she swings at you and otherwise just space fair and go in and then do gay Peach things [more information on this in paragraphs below[). If she's got her back turned to me, I adjust the aim slightly to arc and hit the far end of her body (I guess it would technically be the front of her head?). This is basically to cut off the escape zones the same way the turnip does when you lob it behind her when she's facing you, except her DJ bair has less momentum than her DJ into fair and the threat of turning her around often makes her move forward and attack into you, which can create opportunities to counterattack if you can hit the ground and shield in time (approaching bair is very punishable). And if the turnip actually just hits her, if all goes as planned and it hits her forward then it combos into a free aerial. Otherwise it pushes her back and forces her to face you (which means she has to spend time to adjust her stance when she finds a second to compose herself) and that's all time you can spend figuring out how to proactively hit her, gain control of the stage, and so forth. Also if she's facing you then your fair beats her everything in air to air unless she stuffs it which is sweet.

After she gets tired of being forced to look at you and then faired, she'll have to do something bizarre like catch turnips / attack better, or land. I've never really seen a Puff do the either of the first two effectively so let's focus on the third. Once she's discouraged from attacking in that position, she's gonna land and try to find a way back to the positions in the air where you can't really do anything to her unless she starts to run low on jumps or she does something stupid (and during this, she'll be trying to align herself to hit you or setup pressure or other lame Puff nonsense). So basically when she's grounded, you're at advantage and the goal here is to use Peach's better air-to-ground game and superior actual ground game to do damage efficiently and keep Puff from reversing the situation and gaining mid-stage (or chasing you down with momentum). Fortunately, Puff's only real ground attacks are her grab, u-tilt, f-smash, and dash attack (other notable things to watch for are her crouch and shield). None of those are really that effective vs what Peach will be using so long as you understand why Puff's ground game is really more polarizing than actually effective vs most characters.

So, we're gonna start with rest because it has to be addrest or none of anything above or below matters because you cannot keep pace with repeatedly dying at 9%. You are not Falco. When I played Abu in our seriouslies at TBH2, aside from the first match where he rested KOed me like 3 times I didn't really get rested much and I won three of the other four matches pretty handily. Currently, the only rest setups that Puffs typically go for on Peach are u-tilt at low percent, various forms of uair at specific percent ranges, and on occasion something bizarre like pound or another aerial into rest (mercifully they haven't learned about the nonsense that is ledgehop rest vs umbrella and its option tree but don't tell them that). So basically the major rest setup that seems to cost Peaches matches and create this terrible fear of using Peach's shield (which is an amazing tool in this matchup against everything but basically spaced bair) is the u-tilt because of its tendency to shield-poke. People don't typically expect to be shield poked, resulting in bad DI (or no DI) and then they get pinged and Peach Puff is impossible 7-3 matchup and nothing will ever change that. Uair and the bizarre setups with pound and the side-hitting aerials (and dair I suppose) are generally easier to see coming because of the positioning she needs to hit those and then combo off them into rest; for this reason, they're often easier to crouch-tech, DI out of, and so forth so I'm not gonna focus on them because they don't seem as costly as u-tilt.

So, the thing about u-tilt is that avoiding the shield poke is in fact super easy but not many people know a whole lot about hitboxes or why shield pokes even happen. Anyway, since most of you just want the answer just angle your shield a bit down and if it's small, decompress whichever shoulder trigger you use by a bit and then angle it down to avoid losing to u-tilt rest at low percent. Okay, now for the explanation of why this is necessary. Basically, Puff's u-tilt's opening hitbox is a dot around her feet. Because the hitbox is so small, it avoids the shield area near most characters' feet (in order to shield poke, your hitbox must hit part of the other characters' body without touching the shield). As a side note, I actually think this is a balancing feature to characters with relatively smaller hitboxes like Samus but it just didn't work out as effectively as the designers intended but that's neither here nor there. Anyway, in Puff's case after the red dot appears, the lack of shield touching it ensures the opponent got hit and then pops them up into certain doom. However, this is exploitable because angling the shield down covers basically everywhere the u-tilt could hit once she's inside the space where characters generally have their feet exposed. In addition, the move itself is laggy and very easy to ground float aerial OOS on in retaliation when it hits the shield (ground float uair OOS is especially fun on it). Moreover, ground float FC aerials actually has a very solid option tree for follow ups if you actually procure one in a low percent range because nair combos into itself or other aerials and then on a lot of levels you can then zone her further by plucking a veggie and manipulating where she can go with it, or baiting her into attacking out of position and countering it appropriately.

I'm gonna make this its own paragraph 'cuz there's an art to pressuring Puff and maintaining superior positioning. The only real rule of baiting her panic attacks is to remember you're slow and it's easy to overextend. She basically wants you to overextend and then hit you so she can regain composure. However, her attacks only win vs yours in specific positions and she's not miles faster than you (and your attacks are scary on the basis that they all do like 14%, have medium kill power fairly uniformly, and have bonkers startup and priority) so it's easy to keep superior position by simply threatening her and then not committing. Also, remember that her counterattacks that move her into you (DJ into you > fair, etc) can often be eaten at lower percents and then naired on if their spacing isn't very perfect. Don't underestimate the power of simply trading hit for hit as a means to kill her or maintain posture if you're winning or relatively close in a race. Hell, even if you're losing by a chunk it might be worth it just because as she runs out of jumps she starts to be pressed to go low or hit a platform to refresh, which can both be exploited pretty hard by a savvy Peach.

Okay so now I'm gonna address her ground game. She likes to punish landing lag with f-smash and grab because she thinks she's clever. She also likes to f-smash in the direction of descending aerials to take that into consideration. Some kind of FF land that doesn't lag you up (float or empty land basically) into shield can often **** her up for this. She might switch to grab, but that's easy to out-space and therefore tempt f-smashes and dash attacks as her go-to on the ground - the latter of which you can u-smash sweetspot OOS on which is (c) Riddlebox. In general, her ground game is pretty limited so there's not much to know in terms of how you beat it since basically all of it is shield punishable or her grab, which polarizes your behaviour and hers based on whether you can be grabbed immediately or not. Defensively, she'll crouch and block to make dash attack too risky to really be considered so you can cross that off pretty quickly. If she blocks in general within a certain range you can just go in with an FC aerial and then go berserk on her shield. In general, people need to be better at shield pressure and understanding the timing windows you're trying to hit vs Puff because her OOS options suck but then the fear of... I don't even know what... causes them to back off when she super duper vulnerable. Let's break this down: Puff's OOS options include a really slow jump, really slow WD, shield grab, a frame 8 JC u-smash that hits behind her (not useful since Peach should pressure the front of Puff's shield whenever possible and its hitbox isn't really big either), and an above average roll forward. Roll back is difficult to directly punish if she gets it off (though you can often hit through it if your pressure is good) but if you see it quickly, you can often turnip after your aerial or such and then toss it into her space - if she shields after the roll or crouches or jumps, it'll often hit the last two or bounce around awkwardly on the first, which enables you to set up your control of the middle. Peach likes controlling the center stage box, even vs balloons. Roll forward is invulnerable frame 2 but honestly rolling into or by Peach is generally weak and everyone should know this by now.

Okay so her other major ground defense is her crouch. She likes to make you aim your aerials low to hit her crouch and then spontaneously f-smash because you've delayed your window. However, this is easily beaten by landing and blocking and all that crap mentioned above. Another really good counter is just throwing ground turnips at her (just make sure the turnip will hit). It's annoying, easy damage, and it makes her have to do something. If you get caught pulling a turnip as she moves in with a really aggressive ground movement, just remember you can throw the turnip down during jumps and that you also still have your float aerials and can feasibly out-time her with them even after plucking a veggie if she's WDing in.

Another good thing vs her crouch is to simply threaten to down smash her, since very few players know how to crouch-tech it into a rest setup on reaction and even if they do you can probably DI for the u-tilt when you see the tech. The chance of you hitting 30%+ on hit with a d-smash is far more likely than you being pinged. The beauty of this threat is that most of the time you won't have to worry about them knowing to crouch tech the d-smash either because the threat of it causes them to do everything to avoid it. This means you rarely hit a d-smash but you often create an opening for other things (so the d-smash is more of the bluff or elephant in the room). To do this, if you're just outside her f-smash range, all you do is you just kind of walk towards her when she's crouching and then shield if you see her twitch or suspect the opponent of getting antsy. The shield is basically because her only real attacks that control any space on the ground are her dash attack and f-smash (and arguably her d-tilt I guess) because they're her only ones with any real range. But they're also highly punishable on shield, so odds are if you walk towards her with a super scary d-smash threatening to pop a cap in her bum for crouching then she's gonna swing or dip (probably WD back or jump back). Since you can float OOS (or float fast fall turnip), her moving back isn't really a big deal and the former is beaten by shielding. It helps to know the max-range of the d-smash's first hit though or else you'll probably wind up walking close enough for her to grab you if you block and then that ruins this. Her slow jump works against her here because it makes it so that she has to act early if she wants to use the air as an escape, so this makes it easy to tell when it's okay to d-smash or not.

That's enough for now. I've posted this before actually so I think that's enough period LOL.

 

[DoH]

DoH, you played a little risky against Puff. I think M2K opted to not rest because he isn't too familiar with it(and probably thought he could win without it), but a Puff main would have rested that stock twice. You rolled right into Puff (which is hard to see coming), and dash attacked his shield (super easy).

Was it nerves, or do you always play risky vs. Puffs?

I never dash attacked her shield on the FD match, and I rolled past M2K; he couldn't have rested me and he's too cautious to have gone for a read like that.

My almost isai I played smarter probably.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=S5bZ7Bs0xtM#t=524s

 

[ShroudedOne]

I never really liked fair in the matchup too much because of its massive startup, but then I have issues with committing too much. I can probably make it work with more patience on my end. And I also like dash attack (sparingly) when she's doing dumb aerials (WD OOS > dash attack can snipe her out of the air depending on how she decided to aerial your shield [it's good vs rising SH aerials in particular, I've noticed]). But not generally before 50%.

WD OOS is lovely in the matchup in general. The way most Puff seem to like hitting shields (hit it, drift away to bait something) allows for you to WD back/in place > turnip pull if she doesn't try to move into you (so I guess it's up to you to figure out if she is).

20/10 post by KirbyKaze.

 

[DoH]

Yeah, that's why Armada gets wrecked by hbox because he instinctively tries to outfair him, but you really should be only using fair when you are falling down as you drift away so you hit with just the tip to cover your descent.

I think fsmash is underutilized in the matchup. It covers that bair and it's disjointed.

Also trapping puff on the ground is so good. Forcing her to roll by the edge and covering with nair/downsmash is sweet.

Also I can't believe no one has mentioned this; pretty much always be crouch canceling. And throw out upsmashes if they are crossing over you

Juan and I should record some singles matches some day.

 

[DoH]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ffaHlgZEgk&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrIBBE-r5gI&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RZ_PdICSN8

These will be deleted within a week so eat 'em up!

 

[Nintendude]

Why is he deleting them?

 

[AozoraX]

TY KirbyKaze for that indepth stuff... That's going to really crank up the heat. People breaking out pocket Jiggs are going to pay severely for it.

 

[DoH]

He doesn't like having friendlies on his channel? I'm going to try and get a copy to put on my channel.

 

[Babatunde]

Oooooo, the return of DeeOhAytch. I like it <3

 

[Prince_Abu]

doh sux vs puff