Babatunde
Smash Journeyman
40 Bux for a legit Nintendo controller from Amazon.
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VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)
- Thread starter Cia
- Start date
Heero Yuy
#sweg
I probably should've asked this centuries ago... What use does double jump cancelling have in matches? I know how to do it and all, but just not how to utilize it in the real world.
DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
I bought 3 used ones off of ebay. two were $15-20 and the emerald one was like $30
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
You got an emerald one for 30? Good find. Protip: Go in with a friend and ask the seller to do free shipping/reduce price a bit if you don't sell through ebay. (They'll be fine with it because ebay takes a chunk.) I got mine for 40$ after shipping.
AozoraX
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2012
- Messages
- 95
No problems at all, I'm gonna check it right now, I'll probably end up shooting you a PM or post it in the thread, even
DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
http://smashboards.com/threads/effective-hitboxes-vs-standard-hitboxes.282353/
Part of the reason your spacing might suck
Retreating aerials are the **** yo
Part of the reason your spacing might suck
Retreating aerials are the **** yo
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Retreating fair is retardedly broken with this character.
Babatunde
Smash Journeyman
What about retreating bair?
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Effective Hitboxes vs Standard Hitboxes
Anybody have any of the lost stuff (pictures) from this post or explanations?
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Retreating bair is something I like versus the Mario brothers in particular, but I don't feel like it's a really strong option versus other characters. To be honest, I don't use that much retreating bair, maybe someone could elaborate on it.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Peach bair trades with a lot (like every other move she has). It's okay for hitting certain angles if the opponent lacks a good straight (Puff facing you, Mario bros, Samus, Pikachu, etc). That said, the characters with broken aerials like Sheik and Marth can cannibalize it pretty easily unless you're using an angle they're unprepared for. And vs Fox and Falco, fair is generally stronger because priority. It's her most priority aerial to the side and if fair can't come out fast enough then it can work in a pinch.
There's some approaching stuff too but I generally find that kind of thing flimsy unless the foe has already stopped moving because they've been disrupted. Approaching bair is not particularly good versus the movement strategies that people use to try and lame her out.
You can also kill Nana floating backwards during your FC aerial chain instead of going forwards. Style matters, you know. More importantly it refreshes your Nair and Fair.
There's some approaching stuff too but I generally find that kind of thing flimsy unless the foe has already stopped moving because they've been disrupted. Approaching bair is not particularly good versus the movement strategies that people use to try and lame her out.
You can also kill Nana floating backwards during your FC aerial chain instead of going forwards. Style matters, you know. More importantly it refreshes your Nair and Fair.
What do you guys think of buffer-jumping with Peach? As in using R/L + up on the c-stick to jump after a move. She has quite a few moves which send the opponent into the air, so I thought that it could be used for combos. Like, use buffer-jumping to link a dash-attack and a uair/nair together. Or up-throw/d-tilt to an aerial. Or a fast nair OoS. Do any of you use buffer jumping for stuff like this?
I've been experimenting with it a little myself and I feel like I have a easier time doing longer combos with her now. That, however, might be because I'm not completely confident with the timing on her moves and how long they last.
I've been experimenting with it a little myself and I feel like I have a easier time doing longer combos with her now. That, however, might be because I'm not completely confident with the timing on her moves and how long they last.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
It's amazing.
Holding back while buffering FJ will always back jump, enabling some high momentum escapes complete with impeccable timing. It makes stuff like FJ back jump float fair FF AC vs Fox and other pressuring characters with meh range much stronger. Remember to float above their SH nair height (or whatever their most reaching, quick approach is).
I don't think it's good for quick nairs because you still have to time the nair. Might as well time the jump too. And after a dash attack I feel she needs to dash a lot of the time before she FCs whatever her combo aerial is in that instance. Which means buffer jump doesn't help cuz you need to dash jump, which necessitates manual timing.
I think people see buffer jump as a way to avoid learning expedient action timings after things but that rarely works in reality because everything DURING that jump still needs to be timed. Or you have to dash or WD first. And so forth. Really, it's just a convenient way to jump with full momentum in either direction at a moment's notice. But it doesn't make nair OOS easier. And I feel that you get a better feel for the shield in general by doing stuff manually where possible in the develomental stages.
Holding back while buffering FJ will always back jump, enabling some high momentum escapes complete with impeccable timing. It makes stuff like FJ back jump float fair FF AC vs Fox and other pressuring characters with meh range much stronger. Remember to float above their SH nair height (or whatever their most reaching, quick approach is).
I don't think it's good for quick nairs because you still have to time the nair. Might as well time the jump too. And after a dash attack I feel she needs to dash a lot of the time before she FCs whatever her combo aerial is in that instance. Which means buffer jump doesn't help cuz you need to dash jump, which necessitates manual timing.
I think people see buffer jump as a way to avoid learning expedient action timings after things but that rarely works in reality because everything DURING that jump still needs to be timed. Or you have to dash or WD first. And so forth. Really, it's just a convenient way to jump with full momentum in either direction at a moment's notice. But it doesn't make nair OOS easier. And I feel that you get a better feel for the shield in general by doing stuff manually where possible in the develomental stages.
DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
Ryobeat
Smash Ace
Hey Peach mains! Can you guys help me out with my gameplay? For the first time ever I have a tournament match where I'm not playing terrible and its lengthyish. Now, I think my main problems are in my fundamentals. I dont have much, I have an alright defense, good edgeguarding, and combos, but fundamentals I have none such as stage positioning, how I want to position myself vs certain characters, and other basic ideas. Can you guys please help me figure out what I need to work on?
Here is the match; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZb-JQ738DM&list=PLlIHVxA7UoL3VPhzC4xRr3XbTowXpO6j7
Here is the match; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZb-JQ738DM&list=PLlIHVxA7UoL3VPhzC4xRr3XbTowXpO6j7
john!
Smash Hero
you do a lot of panic rolls/dsmashes
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
but panic dsmash is the best with peach
Cia
das kwl
During the first game, I wasn't sure I was going to have any real advice for you because Twebb displayed some of the most horrible Fox v Peach play I've ever seen. But during the last 2 games I was able to pick up on some things:
- You have a solid neutral game. You know how to bait fox which is good, but your punishes almost always seemed to be Dsmashes which can be good for racking up early damage. But when Fox is in the mid-high percentage range, you want to hit him with something that you can combo or tech chase from, and end with a strong hit that kills, or sets up the edge guard. Dsmashing fox @ 60ish percent just resets the playing field and you have to go back the dash dance war.
- Your float canceled Fairs. They got you really far in the first game (again WTF Twebb <_< ) but you pretty much ALWAYS did them right when anyone would expect you to do them. Twebb caught on to this and just started catching you with Usmash. You have to adapt just like your opponent does. Constantly look for little things your opponent does that can give you an edge in a clutch situation. Does he favor a particular get up? Does he overuse Nair approach? Does he like to shine/catch turnips? Does he like to recovery high as opposed to aiming for the ledge? Keep a mental note of habits like that. Had you caught on to his Usmashes, you could have just stayed in your float a bit longer and reacted accordingly.
- I know it's difficult to control him, but playing fox is A LOT harder when you don't threaten the space around him. I noticed you like to punish fox as he approaches (retreating dsmash or Uair counters) but in many situations, Fox's aerial's will beat out Peach's. You want to use turnips more to restrict his mobility in the air. There were quite a few times where you were both spaced pretty far apart and you just went into float without picking a turnip first. You have access to all aerials during float, why not have a projectile as well?
-----
I can't remember much else. You've improved drastically since the last time I've seen you play. Pretty much what Alukard said, you guys get better seemingly overnight.
Ryobeat
Smash Ace
- The way I'm always throwing out moves without thought; not trying to claim space just trying to have no lag. The reason I did this was that "Oh, if I keep throwing out moves, there will be no lag to punish because its just all attacks without ending lag. BUT, playing a higher level player such as T.webb, I learn that it can be punished no matter how fast you do you more. I have to go into games now not think how I can have as little lag as possible, but also how to land with spaced aerials that I can't get hit after or take a better position with my aerials. Also, more retreating aerials. My ground game is pretty good when it comes to baiting my opponent with wavedash backs, but I also have to utilize the fact that I can do that with aerials as well.
- Almost every time I pull a turnip, I go for attack right after. I need to learn how to use more turnips to my advantage when I get the opportunity to pull them. This is such an awful habit of mine. It probably comes froms the bad mindset I get from playing my friend. I am better then him, and I hit him with this stuff easier, so I start to assume it works perfectly. Just because it works on him, doesnt mean its the best option I could do. I have to change that. Also with turnips, I dont even pull that much and I only use them to approach with fair. I also need to learn how I can trap my opponents using turnips. Like if someone is camping me on the top platform, it would be better if I would just throw turnips at him and cut off angles, then attack, instead of just trying to get up there with over/undershot aerials.
- I dont incorporate enough grabs. Learn setups into grabs. I can probably condition him into shielding my attacks because I do so many into down smash and then just grab. My punish game after grabs were also not on point in that set. I just need to work on that aspect as a whole more.
- I usually opt for the same ground pressure with Aerial > Dsmash or things that just end in the ground, and my opponents adapt to that will a full hop drill or full hop aerial to punish, though I used up airs to try to keep T.webb's aerial game in check, he didnt really have an aerial neutral game, but he punished me that way. After my attacks I could mix it up with upairs after attacks on shield.
- I sometimes over extend my punishes and lose control of the stage. Also, sometimes I roll in a situation when it isnt as bad as I think and lose positioning, so I have to work on keeping my ground, of course. I can do this by choosing safer combo follow ups that let me still have control of the stage. I could probably do what I was doing if I had a harder read on him, but I was looking for hard reads with no evidence that he would do the option I expect.
-Even though its a mix of 2 things I already said, everytime I commit to an approach I KEEP GOING. Its such a bad habit that I always do. I should pick safer options if I want to extend. Like I would do Turnip> FC Fair> Dash Attack. T.webb could just jump over ALL of that and get center again. Easy positioning for him.
- I dont use my float game alone to take space. When I float, I go straight into an aerial, not even trying to be tricky with my air movement to get him farther in the corner. My FC game in general is too straight forward. (VaNz is right about that. The reason I lost game 2 was because of predictable spots where I would land with my aerials.Then up throw up air.) I should be more patient when I'm coming down from an aerial and really pick my spots better.
- Quick question: Does FC Dair at the ledge cover Fox's Fire fox to the ledge when he is high?
- Also , I dont know if you guys noticed that the non-flat land messed up the tech chase I tried to pull with Dsmash LOLOL, that would have hit if it were flat and I would have had an edgeguard position, but its melee, oh well, happens.
- Overall, when I'm losing, I need to slow the pace down. In my head, I get too flustered and think "Omg, he has a full stock lead, I have to take the stock quick" when I should just think I should take that stock, but take my time, and with more turnips.
- Lastly, I have to work on my CC game and knowing when and how to CC. I almost never do. And when I do, its always into dsmash. I could probably use CC dash attack if the start up is quick enough(anyone know?), CC Grab, or into a nair to get the pressure off.
I think that's my overall idea of what I need to work on. I'm gonna rewatch it a few times and see if I can pick up on any other traits. And VaNz, everything you said was right, thank you
- Almost every time I pull a turnip, I go for attack right after. I need to learn how to use more turnips to my advantage when I get the opportunity to pull them. This is such an awful habit of mine. It probably comes froms the bad mindset I get from playing my friend. I am better then him, and I hit him with this stuff easier, so I start to assume it works perfectly. Just because it works on him, doesnt mean its the best option I could do. I have to change that. Also with turnips, I dont even pull that much and I only use them to approach with fair. I also need to learn how I can trap my opponents using turnips. Like if someone is camping me on the top platform, it would be better if I would just throw turnips at him and cut off angles, then attack, instead of just trying to get up there with over/undershot aerials.
- I dont incorporate enough grabs. Learn setups into grabs. I can probably condition him into shielding my attacks because I do so many into down smash and then just grab. My punish game after grabs were also not on point in that set. I just need to work on that aspect as a whole more.
- I usually opt for the same ground pressure with Aerial > Dsmash or things that just end in the ground, and my opponents adapt to that will a full hop drill or full hop aerial to punish, though I used up airs to try to keep T.webb's aerial game in check, he didnt really have an aerial neutral game, but he punished me that way. After my attacks I could mix it up with upairs after attacks on shield.
- I sometimes over extend my punishes and lose control of the stage. Also, sometimes I roll in a situation when it isnt as bad as I think and lose positioning, so I have to work on keeping my ground, of course. I can do this by choosing safer combo follow ups that let me still have control of the stage. I could probably do what I was doing if I had a harder read on him, but I was looking for hard reads with no evidence that he would do the option I expect.
-Even though its a mix of 2 things I already said, everytime I commit to an approach I KEEP GOING. Its such a bad habit that I always do. I should pick safer options if I want to extend. Like I would do Turnip> FC Fair> Dash Attack. T.webb could just jump over ALL of that and get center again. Easy positioning for him.
- I dont use my float game alone to take space. When I float, I go straight into an aerial, not even trying to be tricky with my air movement to get him farther in the corner. My FC game in general is too straight forward. (VaNz is right about that. The reason I lost game 2 was because of predictable spots where I would land with my aerials.Then up throw up air.) I should be more patient when I'm coming down from an aerial and really pick my spots better.
- Quick question: Does FC Dair at the ledge cover Fox's Fire fox to the ledge when he is high?
- Also , I dont know if you guys noticed that the non-flat land messed up the tech chase I tried to pull with Dsmash LOLOL, that would have hit if it were flat and I would have had an edgeguard position, but its melee, oh well, happens.
- Overall, when I'm losing, I need to slow the pace down. In my head, I get too flustered and think "Omg, he has a full stock lead, I have to take the stock quick" when I should just think I should take that stock, but take my time, and with more turnips.
- Lastly, I have to work on my CC game and knowing when and how to CC. I almost never do. And when I do, its always into dsmash. I could probably use CC dash attack if the start up is quick enough(anyone know?), CC Grab, or into a nair to get the pressure off.
I think that's my overall idea of what I need to work on. I'm gonna rewatch it a few times and see if I can pick up on any other traits. And VaNz, everything you said was right, thank you
Ryobeat
Smash Ace
You guys should try this out to try and understand the spacing of your opponents longest range immediate attack. What I'm trying to do is use Mahone's bird's eye view of Pokemon Stadium idea as my guide.
What I do is, with the character I'm trying to test out, I roll all the way to the ledge and do the farthest range immediate attack. For example, I chose Fox to start. The farthest thing he can do is SHFFL Nair. After that, he ends up right at(or SLIGHTLY before) The first black line on the left(assume he starts all the way on the left) Then with Peach, I try to measure it in rolls. So I go all the way to the left side, and roll until I get to/past the black line. That gives me an idea of how far I need to be to stay in a range to still punish him. Fox's farthest attack will take up the equivalent amount of space as like, 1 and a half of peach's rolls(I could probably find a better way to measure this LOL, thats all I thought of so far.) So now that I know the range, I can stay maybe 1 character lane before that to give me some time to react to what the Fox will do.
Also, I tried to take this a further. I cant really explain it through this picture of Pokemon Stadium, but Im also trying to see how far/high his farthest immediate full hop attack will go by using the same method I explain here. Fox can go at his peak right above the Pokemon Stadium platform in height. He can go at farthest almost up to the edge of the Pokemon Stadium platform.(Equivalent to 2 of peach's roll's in length). With this information, I know how far to float to not get hit out of my float, and how high I have to float(Though in reality, at lower percents, I could just trade with nair on any move he tries to hit me with out of my float.) But at least I know exactly the extent of his range.
Just if you guys need help understanding the range of your opponent.
What I do is, with the character I'm trying to test out, I roll all the way to the ledge and do the farthest range immediate attack. For example, I chose Fox to start. The farthest thing he can do is SHFFL Nair. After that, he ends up right at(or SLIGHTLY before) The first black line on the left(assume he starts all the way on the left) Then with Peach, I try to measure it in rolls. So I go all the way to the left side, and roll until I get to/past the black line. That gives me an idea of how far I need to be to stay in a range to still punish him. Fox's farthest attack will take up the equivalent amount of space as like, 1 and a half of peach's rolls(I could probably find a better way to measure this LOL, thats all I thought of so far.) So now that I know the range, I can stay maybe 1 character lane before that to give me some time to react to what the Fox will do.
Also, I tried to take this a further. I cant really explain it through this picture of Pokemon Stadium, but Im also trying to see how far/high his farthest immediate full hop attack will go by using the same method I explain here. Fox can go at his peak right above the Pokemon Stadium platform in height. He can go at farthest almost up to the edge of the Pokemon Stadium platform.(Equivalent to 2 of peach's roll's in length). With this information, I know how far to float to not get hit out of my float, and how high I have to float(Though in reality, at lower percents, I could just trade with nair on any move he tries to hit me with out of my float.) But at least I know exactly the extent of his range.
Just if you guys need help understanding the range of your opponent.
MacD
Banned via Administration
downsmash or bust
covers all options
oh and dash attack
DADS OP
covers all options
oh and dash attack
DADS OP
Babatunde
Smash Journeyman
Lol, my friends think spamming Dsmash is a bad habit. haha, that's funny.
Also how do you Peach's usually do FC nair approach? I usually pull it off without dairing if im patient with the input and make absolute sure the stick is at the center before pressing A but how do y'all do it?
Also how do you Peach's usually do FC nair approach? I usually pull it off without dairing if im patient with the input and make absolute sure the stick is at the center before pressing A but how do y'all do it?
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Spamming dsmash is a bad habit. One we (surprisingly... lol 2013 my ass) tend to get away with a lot, but whiffed dsmash or ones that don't end up shield stabbing are punishable as hell; it's just few people actually do so.
At the 2nd thing: practice. Obviously. There isn't really a trick to it, just getting the muscle memory to do the inputs with the right timing.
At the 2nd thing: practice. Obviously. There isn't really a trick to it, just getting the muscle memory to do the inputs with the right timing.
Babatunde
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, Dsmash is a ying-yang habit doe. When your not doing it, you wanna FH nair to read DJ pressure moments, but should the whole uair@ lowpercent, Nair@ high percent thing applied to spacies be applied to the whole cast?
Ryobeat
Smash Ace
Well, in terms of punishing, its probably the best way to go. But your opponent can probably and adapt and DI better. Remember to still mix it up. If you recognize he's DIing away from the uairs and you cant followup, nair first.
Jethrotex
Smash Journeyman
I feel like killing them is the best punishment, I could be wrong though.
Babatunde
Smash Journeyman
You mean just sticking to your well spaced fairs? I think i like that idea.......
Ryobeat
Smash Ace
What are the 3 moves with the fastest startup? Everytime I CC something, I downsmash, but its getting too predictable. What other fast moves can I pull out?
Babatunde
Smash Journeyman
I think they are Nair, Bair, and........Dsmash XD
Although you could start Grounded nairing more after a CC and then buffer into a throw.
Although you could start Grounded nairing more after a CC and then buffer into a throw.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
honestly i think in a lot of situations the best thing to do is start dashing after the CC and either go for a grab, dash attack, or get slightly out of range and come in with a float. It depends though. if you know sheik is going to hit the fair and immediately jump again dashing in under her gets you advantage.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
I CC downsmash if they are in range for it afterwards for the sake of simplicity.
If they are not, dashing to DA / grab is soooo good.
If they are not, dashing to DA / grab is soooo good.
john!
Smash Hero
using nair/bair from a CC actually takes more time than dsmashing, not worth it imo
Babatunde
Smash Journeyman
Ryo, how exactly are you being predicted/punished when you try to go for Dsmash?
MacD
Banned via Administration
so i watched irish mafia this weekend at mass madness. not too shabby but boy does he need to work on his edgeguards
that made me start to wonder if the rest of you have issues edgeguarding things like fox. so do you guys?
do you know the best approach for each angle?? can you time fair on his firefox???
that made me start to wonder if the rest of you have issues edgeguarding things like fox. so do you guys?
do you know the best approach for each angle?? can you time fair on his firefox???
Ryobeat
Smash Ace
I got it all down, but I have no idea how to punish a high firefox to the ledge.
kalamazhu
Smash Journeyman
to punish a high firefox just jump and throw a turnip.
Prince_Abu
Smash Lord
lol shouldnt u be good 1st before offering others advice? nub
PB&J
Smash Hero
streaming with doh and mew2king
MacD
Banned via Administration
if you read/guess luckily that they are going from high angling to the ledge, you can smack them out of it with fair. it's very rewarding and anyone watching is like "oh daaaaamn, niiiiiice"
dair might work, bair would but high unlikely you'd be facing backwards.