VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

DJCrinkleCut

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So how are DJC aerials as an approach option? As a player I feel the need to be aggressive, and I feel that it suits that well.
The only thing that sucks is getting knocked up or off stage without a double jump.
 

Meredy

The Busterina
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So how are DJC aerials as an approach option? As a player I feel the need to be aggressive, and I feel that it suits that well.
The only thing that sucks is getting knocked up or off stage without a double jump.
In my eyes, DJC aerials are unnecessary as an approach, as Peach's float is easier and a better option. DJC is great for combos though, such as Uair to DJC Nair.
 

DavemanCozy

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Samus is really annoying to fight. You're a Peach though, so you are just as annoying for her (if not more) than she can be towards you.

Avoid Pokemon Stadium and Dreamland against her: long stages like these just give Samus more room to work with and frustrate you with missiles. Pretty much this summarizes the matchup:
You weave your way through the missiles, yes. But you don't **** her up, but rather knock her away and then keep doing that for 7 minutes. Screw that matchup ... :D
None of the characters want to approach, so it boils down to a spacing matchup. You'll see a lot of grounded movement from Samus followed by wavedash back -> f-tilt or jab (sometimes f-smash) from Samus to keep space. You can do the same thing through spacing your float and using your aerials though.

Speaking of float, you want to approach her from a reasonably high altitude from the ground. Don't go floating in front of Samus's face, she'll just shoot something else at you or swat you away with her tilts. The only time you want to float near the ground is if you're in her space bubble, chasing her from something, or putting on pressure.

Samus essentially wants to stay grounded and keep control through spacing her moves or getting a confirm out of a missile to shove you in an uncomfortable position. You as a Peach want to get Samus airborne and gently shove her in an uncomfortable position: your Bair, Nair, well timed Fairs and turnips can all help with this.

So, it's a match that revolves around shoving each other and keeping space control. Annoying? yes. Winnable? very much so. Hard to win? It depends on matchup knowledge: the hardest Samus players to play against are those that are very patient and have good platform and missile games.
 
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Jethrotex

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Samus is a teasing little ho. Just spam your bair since it goes through everything and float in a position where you don't get rambo'd by nair. Samus' weak point is her head because she can't protect it very well. The most annoying thing is wavedash back forward moves though, just never try and reach.

Seriously, the only thing I find annoying about that matchup is when I overestimate how far my bair goes and they wavedash back and tilt me (because I autopilot cause boredom lel). That is the most annoying feeling in the game, it only does maybe 12% and doesn't knock you back, but the emotion pain I receive when it happens is immense.
 

ViVio

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All of Peach's moves except for ftilt and dtilt beat missile. It's a pretty easy matchup
i skimmed this comment randomly a while back and knowing this ended up being the deciding factor for me winning in a tourney match. thanks DoH lol
 

knightpraetor

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smash DI in past them works best. but you have to be careful not to DI in on the upsmash. usually if they see one DI in on the prior waveshine they will upsmash early to end it.

fox players insist that they can follow you no matter what you do, but I don't believe them. they have to waveshine immediately in order to combo into somethign else, so they can't take time to react to your DI. Thus, when you DI past them no fox i have ever played (chillindude/milkman/sypher mostly) has managed to followup and instead end the combo prematurely. by this i mean they don't keep waveshining you if you smash DI past them. i think they turn and go for an aerial and try to reestablish pressure. though to be honest most of them just upsmash early if they see you trying to smash DI past them.

I highly question whether they can react in such a small window, but kadano would probably be the better person to ask.
 
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Fortress | Sveet

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Fox actually has a TON of time to combo peach. You can wavedash down after the shine and still follow up. Dash JC shine -> wavedash down, repeat.

Not saying that you shouldn't try to escape, though. The point is that [most] people aren't perfect.
 
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Meredy

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Fox actually has a TON of time to combo peach. You can wavedash down after the shine and still follow up. Dash JC shine -> wavedash down, repeat.

Not saying that you shouldn't try to escape, though. The point is that [most] people aren't perfect.
Yeah it's called waveshining. It's escapable by Smash DIing inwards towards the Fox.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Meredyse, I know what a waveshine is. If the fox wavedashes down, he can react to whatever DI peach does, dash at her, JC shine, and repeat. SDIing towards fox would only make it easier for him.
 

Xyzz

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It's Samus, she is probably coming back no matter what you do.

Sometimes you can lure them into trying to pass over you and then up air them for a somewhat early KO, and sometimes you can really hit them with a lot of turnips and/or aerials... just don't count on it and definitely don't overextend for stuff.
 

DoH

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That's why I start going for up airs and up smashes at higher percents, **** trying to edgeguard her
 

Lachesis

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Ahoy. Could anyone tell me the best way to air dodge out of falcon's dthrow->knee?
I'm familiar with the concept of "wiggling out" of hitstun, but just like any other maneuver, there are almost always little tricks that allow it to be more effective. Please teach me!

First of all, what % should I try to start wiggling out of dthrow at?

Secondly, I'm assuming spamming the wiggle is useless, and that the only thing that matters is the last moment right before getting hit. My intial guess is to hold away from falcon, then move the stick towards him right before getting hit and air dodge, but I don't know if that is enough to remove peach from the tumble animation (and I can't test things too often because there's no one near me right now).

Third, about the air dodge.... Pressing L then R (or reverse order) to allow two air dodge inputs is a thing right?
 

Mr. S

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Ahoy. Could anyone tell me the best way to air dodge out of falcon's dthrow->knee?
I'm familiar with the concept of "wiggling out" of hitstun, but just like any other maneuver, there are almost always little tricks that allow it to be more effective. Please teach me!

First of all, what % should I try to start wiggling out of dthrow at?

Secondly, I'm assuming spamming the wiggle is useless, and that the only thing that matters is the last moment right before getting hit. My intial guess is to hold away from falcon, then move the stick towards him right before getting hit and air dodge, but I don't know if that is enough to remove peach from the tumble animation (and I can't test things too often because there's no one near me right now).

Third, about the air dodge.... Pressing L then R (or reverse order) to allow two air dodge inputs is a thing right?
I feel like airdodging out of Falcon's knee might be a little situational, but I'm not too confident about that so I won't go too much into it.

Wiggling and tumbling are covered very well in MacD's Peach tutorial (there's a timestamp that goes right to some good stuff about tumbling and wiggling; if it doesn't work, go to 3:52). Turns out two out-of-tumble options are immediate floating and getting a fast aerial (nair is really good) out. Both of these are super useful.

Hell, if you haven't watched the full guide, you should. There's a whole lot of really good stuff in it.
 

Lachesis

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I appreciate him putting in an effort to make a vid like that, but sadly the info he states isn't always correct. : (
On the tumbling section of that video: "you have to wiggle it [the control stick] back and fourth a couple of times before the tumble breaks." It may be a brief tutorial of the basics, but this part isn't even true.
I don't know the precise details, which is why I'm asking, but even I know that only one flick, as opposed to the video's advice of four times, will always break a tumble. I'm pretty sure tumble isn't broken by the same inputs normal smash DI (quarter circle motions), but rather it seems like it cares more about left/right movements that don't include pressing up or down. As in any fast stick movement that doesn't invade the area that would cause a jump or a fast fall will break the tumble.

Practically, my first impression for applying tumble breaking is to just hold the stick one way and then do a dash input the opposite direction and attempt to press R then L (or reverse order) as close to one another as possible to break tumble in to air dodge. The reason for holding the stick one direction is the same reason for quarter circle smash DI: it gives you the freedom to intentionally do the input slightly early because the remainder of the input still does the job. For example, I believe that holding the stick left or right, then slamming it the other way intentionally a few frames early will still allow the tumble to break because the remainder of the input still meets the requirements to break the tumble. The timing for going early is probably not generous at all, it's probably super small, because flicking the stick its self doesn't take long.
 
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Oaty

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First of all, what % should I try to start wiggling out of dthrow at?
Wizzrobe told me that the wiggle out of D throw ---> Knee usually begins at around 60% (Around when knee can KO on certain stages) but he thinks Armada does do it earlier. The timing is just so tricky, and It honestly seems hard enough at 60 and up.

As for your second question. I hold away from the Falcon and tap in to wiggle out at the correct timing which I don't have completely down yet, but I have been testing it with the Florida Falcons. The timing I've been using is when falcon is about halfway to you horizontally is when I wiggle out and push my control stick Diagonal up towards Falcon. I'm getting it about 70-80% of the time.

Third, about the air dodge.... Pressing L then R (or reverse order) to allow two air dodge inputs is a thing right?
Hmmm... I don't know if this is a thing. I will definitely start testing it though. It seems interesting and It could allow for more leniency for the wiggle out.
 
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GanonMaster

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so hi, I am a ganonplayer who has recently decided to switch over to Peach as my main. I am still learning how to do FCNairs fast 100 % of the time and some other basic stuff, but do you have an input on what peaches needs to practice first? Right now I just feel like I need to play to get better movement around attacks when floating and getting used to time Double jumps and cancels correctly :p

also is this the thread where Peach players hang out usually? Ganonmains uses Linguini's thread for daily discussion and it is really freaking fun and helpful lol x)
 

GanonMaster

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Ye, Peach isn't as fun, but I find their punishgame kinda alike. But where Ganon gets 1-2 hits, Peach can get kills, since her punishgame is better and it is easier to find punishable situations with her.

EDIT: Peach is obviously fun, tho, just not as fun as ganon
 
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AozoraX

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Mar 26, 2012
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Hey guys, I just got back from a huge tournament in Calgary, Alberta (Canada Cup) and I was wondering if I could get some critique and a whole bunch of things-to-do and things-to-not do in my matches. It doesn't have to be posted here - but please give my videos a lookover and tell me how to improve a bit more!

AozoraX vs Mittens - Marth/Falco Matchup
http://youtu.be/4RFjBeb1gZ0

AozoraX vs Mach5 (Falcon)
http://youtu.be/qjbE6mAHLI4

Please and HUGE thank yous!

(armada where are you cmon)
 
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WIDL

We Are Born
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Jun 14, 2006
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Philadelphia
Greetings fellow Peach mains,

I am teaming with a Samus this weekend -- I know what you're think, why Samus?! I simply did not have a lot to choose from, but I am fairly optimistic because floaty teams tend to be super annoying.

Anyhoo, I am looking for general tips and ideas for the team (positioning, what situations to be really careful about, stages) and if any of you happen to know about a solid Peach/Samus team?
 

Loket

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Any tips or general objectives to keep in mind in peach dittos?
Which floatingheights are good what situations?
What should I be looking out for to punish?
 

Mr. S

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Peach dittos are based on patience.

Peach loves to fair in dittos. FC fair is hella good and has some surprising followups. However, it has a good deal of startup lag, and that can be punished with turnips. This can be avoided by just autocanceling the fair, but that requires quick reaction. Just like in many matchups, try to always have a turnip on hand in case the opponent opens himself up. Of course, only pull turnips when you're not going to get punished for it. Peach's nasty punish game also applies to the ditto, and such a mistake can lead to losing a stock.

Knowing the height at which you should hover is tricky in this matchup because your opponent can float as well. I personally like to float just above where Peach's head would be on the ground because then the enemy has to jump in order to throw the turnip, and a quick FC nair will cut through the turnip and hit the opponent. From there, follow up with whatever you want. Be careful, though; Peach can throw out those high-priority nairs when you least expect it, and those will turn the tides of the punish game.

That being said, the punish game is pretty straightforward. If you're on the attack, just do the best you can to hit good stuff like aerials and dash attacks. If your opponent is on the attack, use nair, float and/or good (usually away in my experience) DI to get out of the bad situation. I DI away because Peach isn't particularly mobile, which makes the DI a pretty good escape route. From there, fair and nair are fairly solid landing moves. If you have your float, you can use it as a mixup. If you're smart with it, it may even work as a setup for a combo of your own. Alternatively, it can put you right back into the neutral game, which is a good outcome when you're being punished.

In Peach dittos, you're probably going to make a lot of trades (common ones being combinations of nair, fair and dash attack). Know when to trade. If you're at stupid%, you won't want to trade with an opponent at a better percent. Though trades are integral to the matchup, you will always lose if you constantly take Gamestop trades. A good trade for you is one that will give you more options than the opponent and/or one that lets you connect with a kill move with less risk to you (e.g. the enemy is at a high percent whereas you are not). I'm personally not a huge fan of trading unless I'm confident I can get the kill either with the move or on followup. For example, the enemy's dash attack sends you up, so you can use that to get to a better position. If you trade dash attacks and you're at a lower percent, you can gain advantage in the air and hit them with something annoying like fair if they don't expect it.

But expect is the key word. Peach vs Peach is a very campy matchup; therefore, both players will have to be patient and rely heavily on reads.

The neutral game is really, really defensive and slow. Both Peaches will be sitting there whiffing FC aerials and throwing turnips until someone gets impatient or screws up. The punish game starts when someone's attack connects or someone gets grabbed (shield grabbing is godlike against dash attacks and sometimes pretty good against FC aerials if they don't have an immediate followup like jab or sometimes dsmash, and fthrow is a monster).

To win the neutral game, you want to avoid committing too much; throw out some low-commitment FC aerials or throw some turnips. The problem with turnips is that they take a while to pull out, but that's also a blessing because it can be used to bait laggy stuff like dash attacks.

Nair has a ton of priority and can be used for either trades or easy combo starters if not read, not reacted to and spaced well. It is very strong in combos and serves well as a kill move. Use this a lot.

Dair is annoying and can lead to nair if you're floating, but it's easily punishable if shielded (and really even when not shielded if your spacing isn't really good) because its shield stun isn't great and the ending lag is kind of gross (FCing it gets rid of the lag, but it makes the move far less effective in my experience). It's kind of useful in a select few situations or as a mixup, but nair will usually prove more useful. It's also not super good for combos unless you're nairing out of it immediately. The worst part of dair, though, is that it's easy to SDI out of.

Fair is awesome. It's a great finisher and good combo starter. FC fairs are super good, so you can throw a lot of these out in the neutral game without overcommitting. I like FCing fair out of a backwards float for safety. This is a great move in both the neutral and punish game.

Bair is also really good. It's a potent killing move. It comes out fast. It chains into itself beautifully when you FC it. It has good priority. The hitbox extends considerably past the hurtbox, so it's tough to trade with if spaced correctly (which isn't too hard against Peach). Its knockback also allows for sick combos. I find it to be more useful when comboing, but it's very good in the neutral game as well.

Dash attack is sick, but the lag makes it a little situational. That knockback is delicious; it makes dash attack a considerable kill move against floaty characters like Peach. I only use this when I'm sure I won't get punished for it. I mainly use it to end combos with a powerful move where fair might not be appropriate or where I need to get a fast move out because the opponent will want to trade with nair. Using this in neutral game is risky because of the ending lag, but it's good in the combo game.

Uair is a good kill move. It's not wonderful in the neutral game because of where its hitboxes are, but it has okay range and good priority. Peach has a somewhat hard time landing in this matchup, which makes uair a reliable option.

Fsmash is slow. It can be useful sometimes, but there's some sort of punishable starting lag and very punishable ending lag. Also, fsmash is inconsistent because Peach can hit with a golf club, frying pan or tennis racket. I'm not so sure about this move, to be honest.

Usmash is a good killing move with nice coverage and priority, but the ending lag is kind of bad. Use this to end combos. It trades with nair.

Dsmash is still god. Imagine dsmashing a Peach who thought they could get a dsmash on you, thus crouch cancelling it. Ohhhohoho.

The jabs are good mosquito repellent moves to use if you need your opponent off of you. That won't happen too much outside of the punish game because both players will be fairly campy.

Upsides against Peach:
  • Punishes hard
  • Kills easily
  • Edgeguards easily

Downsides against Peach:
  • Punished hard
  • Killed pretty easily
  • Edgeguarded fairly easily

Don't forget to use lots of turnips.

Hey, if anything, at least the matchup is 50/50.

These are just my two cents and are based entirely on my experience with the matchup. This is not compelete or even necessarily entirely correct/optimal/whatever. This is just tried and tested true by me.
 
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pizzapie7

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Was playing a Fox a lot the other day. He'd shine->wavedash->follow up but I was able to jab him out of his wavedash. I wasn't able to this consistently but got it more than a few times. Is this a viable option I should try going for or just the result of him flubbing something/random luck?
 
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