VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[ShroudedOne]

Oh. You're right, LOL. My bad, he can't reflect it for some reason. I'll look into using toad more there, but it's a move I use more often than I should. >_> Ftilt is the only one I don't really look into, but that's my fault.

I've gotten cool combos off of uptilt before. It's wonky, but pretty solid sometimes.

 

[Oaty]

Against Puff what are smart recovery options?

I usually float high to try to avoid her aerials but recently I've been getting knocked out the top by Uair. The main problem I've been having is when I don't have my float when I try to parasol back I always try to recover high but I'm almost always carried out by Bairs when I try this. Are there any other options when recovering and you don't have a float that are slightly consistent against Puff.

 

[AozoraX]

So Mew2king came to my city and Peach ditto'd me...
Needless to say, I got wrecked. He seems to know always when to land the uair perfectly... sadface

 

[Babatunde]

Against Puff what are smart recovery options?

I usually float high to try to avoid her aerials but recently I've been getting knocked out the top by Uair. The main problem I've been having is when I don't have my float when I try to parasol back I always try to recover high but I'm almost always carried out by Bairs when I try this. Are there any other options when recovering and you don't have a float that are slightly consistent against Puff.

You could always try mixing up how you come back on stage with the parasol, like fastfall and Lift up the parasol for a possible hit.

 

[MacD]

has anyone seen that photo where someone pulled like 700 turnips and listed the results broke down in percentages? i know it's popped up a few times, i just can't remember where to find it

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I thought something like the beam sword was 1/128 while the bob-omb was like 3/128 or something like that. I do remember InternetExplorer making some post that seemed to discredit a statistical approach to turnip pulls. He was using saves states or some way to identically copy the values of the game exactly each time and he would still get various different pulls. It seemed like it was based off the actions you do rather than purely randomness.

 

[ShroudedOne]

 

[MacD]

you are the best !!!

 

[MacD]

hey guys, here is my outline for tutorial i'm going to make. i want to get thoughts on it and if you think i'm missing things or should add things. i made it so you can comment on the doc. you can also post your thoughts here if you like.

I'll be at Pat's House so i will be checking back Monday to see what you guys think. BTW DoH already made comments and i made a couple changes. That is why a couple of him comments might seem weird

deleted link

PS - you can ignore the twitter/facebook posts. i put those there for reference as i was making the guide

 

[Oaty]

hey guys, here is my outline for tutorial i'm going to make. i want to get thoughts on it and if you think i'm missing things or should add things. i made it so you can comment on the doc. you can also post your thoughts here if you like.

I'll be at Pat's House so i will be checking back Monday to see what you guys think. BTW DoH already made comments and i made a couple changes. That is why a couple of him comments might seem weird

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RSGxP4Nykd5Lu8blBdHmlw0hokRshSayTRciAZWPJyE/edit?usp=sharing

PS - you can ignore the twitter/facebook posts. i put those there for reference as i was making the guide

This is amazing and I feel it will be full of great info.

Could you do something similar to this for Matchups sometime in the Future. It would be great to have considering the info at the start of this thread is a little outdated at the moment.

 

[john!]

ok guys

SAMUS

help me deal with her bull****

how do you guys deal with platform camping?

criticism welcome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FgnjD5TdKvM#t=337

 

[DoH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoXWzEUuQQA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI1N6UTuKRQ

New matches for you all!

 

[Heero Yuy]

What do you guys know about fighting Link? He has so many mindgame options that really throw me off-guard plus the sword is rather scary. My main problem is that he can easily get the shield grab and whenever I try to pressure, he UpB's.

P.S. DoH, I finally figured out how to handle Puff. Thank you after all this time, good sir.

 

[Magnawolf]

What do you guys know about fighting Link? He has so many mindgame options that really throw me off-guard plus the sword is rather scary. My main problem is that he can easily get the shield grab and whenever I try to pressure, he UpB's.

P.S. DoH, I finally figured out how to handle Puff. Thank you after all this time, good sir.

If you're getting shield grabbed by Link, you're doing it wrong.

 

[AozoraX]

Hey guys, I could use some more critique... This time vs Puff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0sBaW4dEec

I think I just need to space better and pull more turnips but... I need to expand my horizons.
Also, this is a long shot, but here's a video of me vs Mew2king... ANYTHING you can construct from this is appreciated but I think I just got wrapped up real good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH6J-SlftZw

Thanks everyone!~
PS: no peach at e3? sad

 

[Oaty]

Hey guys, I could use some more critique... This time vs Puff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0sBaW4dEec

I think I just need to space better and pull more turnips but... I need to expand my horizons.
Also, this is a long shot, but here's a video of me vs Mew2king... ANYTHING you can construct from this is appreciated but I think I just got wrapped up real good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH6J-SlftZw

Thanks everyone!~
PS: no peach at e3? sad

One thing I noticed fairly early on is that when you are on ledge you are too predictable and the puff player was able to punish almost every time without fail. I would recommend trying to do other options once on ledge because puff can punish a good amount of the get-ups solely on reaction. You could try doing something like what Armada has been doing recently when he stalls on ledge which is to drop down and double jump to sweet spot the ledge. He also does a drop down and Parasol, but that would not be of much use against puff because he could forward smash to punish.

Based off what I saw every time you back away you pull a turnip and then you throw it very quickly. A good option would be to do some FC Fairs while holding a turnip to space the puff in range of your turnip because Skin Flakes was Consistently dodging your turnips or being too far for you to have a follow up. In game 1 especially you had no follow ups on some of your turnip throws making them essentially worthless. Just getting the hit with the turnip means nothing unless you can get a solid aerial or hit in.

Something you should be aware of that I didn't see happen is that there are a couple times where you Dash attack puffs shield. The puff should be able to rest this very easily so Dash attack can be a very risky option.

A move I noticed was relatively absent during game 1 was Bair. At the beginning of game 2 you seemed to get some solid percent with some quick FC Bairs the problem is that they weren't consistent enough to trip up the puff..Another move I noticed that you seemed to not use was Uair. Uair can be very good at killing puff and can give a lot of room to breath if the puff doesn't get KO'd from it. If the Puff over extends and is to close to center stage for a FC Nair to kill then do a FC Uair and should get the KO unless the Puff is at too low percent to die anyway.

You recovered high almost everytime in this set which wasn't an awful option it just seems like the puff caught on which is evident by the Uair kill he got in game 1 and if you were too low he could've been able to Bair you out.

You said your spacing game was your main problem, but I'm not entirely sure if that's true. You had some great spacing during both games and were consistent at not getting hit by Puff's wall of pain. You would occasionly get overly anxious and try to go in on Puff while he was Bairing. You should try to bait him out and then try to sneak in a FC Nair or Bair during the cool-down of one of his Bairs.

If this doesn't help at all I'm sorry it's just some random observations I made while watching you play

A good example of how to play this MU is Armada vs Prince Abu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lSQjaSq968

 

[DoH]

So y'all want some Peach vs Fox matches?

http://www.azubu.tv/Chillindude#!/play/3679/crs.chillin-and-azen-playing-melee

 

[The PikMan]

Do you guys have any decent tips on the Sheik matchup? Most of the sheik players I have played have been worse than me so I don't exactly have trouble with it but the matches always seems closer than I'd like and against a better opponent I know the openings are smaller and the punishes are harder.

 

[AozoraX]

One thing I noticed fairly early on is that when you are on ledge you are too predictable and the puff player was able to punish almost every time without fail. I would recommend trying to do other options once on ledge because puff can punish a good amount of the get-ups solely on reaction. You could try doing something like what Armada has been doing recently when he stalls on ledge which is to drop down and double jump to sweet spot the ledge. He also does a drop down and Parasol, but that would not be of much use against puff because he could forward smash to punish.

Based off what I saw every time you back away you pull a turnip and then you throw it very quickly. A good option would be to do some FC Fairs while holding a turnip to space the puff in range of your turnip because Skin Flakes was Consistently dodging your turnips or being too far for you to have a follow up. In game 1 especially you had no follow ups on some of your turnip throws making them essentially worthless. Just getting the hit with the turnip means nothing unless you can get a solid aerial or hit in.

Something you should be aware of that I didn't see happen is that there are a couple times where you Dash attack puffs shield. The puff should be able to rest this very easily so Dash attack can be a very risky option.

A move I noticed was relatively absent during game 1 was Bair. At the beginning of game 2 you seemed to get some solid percent with some quick FC Bairs the problem is that they weren't consistent enough to trip up the puff..Another move I noticed that you seemed to not use was Uair. Uair can be very good at killing puff and can give a lot of room to breath if the puff doesn't get KO'd from it. If the Puff over extends and is to close to center stage for a FC Nair to kill then do a FC Uair and should get the KO unless the Puff is at too low percent to die anyway.

You recovered high almost everytime in this set which wasn't an awful option it just seems like the puff caught on which is evident by the Uair kill he got in game 1 and if you were too low he could've been able to Bair you out.

You said your spacing game was your main problem, but I'm not entirely sure if that's true. You had some great spacing during both games and were consistent at not getting hit by Puff's wall of pain. You would occasionly get overly anxious and try to go in on Puff while he was Bairing. You should try to bait him out and then try to sneak in a FC Nair or Bair during the cool-down of one of his Bairs.

If this doesn't help at all I'm sorry it's just some random observations I made while watching you play

A good example of how to play this MU is Armada vs Prince Abu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lSQjaSq968

No these help a lot! Thank you! I'm going to try to improve my movement and options with my FC turnips more - I realize that now.
Please keep telling me what I can/can't do. I really appreciate it.

That goes to anyone in the thread as well, please critique or message me privately as well! Please please!

It's just... when can I do these aerials inbetween getting baired all day?
It comes out so quickly and feels like it has little CD time...

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

ok guys

SAMUS

help me deal with her bull****

how do you guys deal with platform camping?

criticism welcome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FgnjD5TdKvM#t=337

No idea about platform stuff, but I just noticed you kept getting hit by projectiles while in the middle of doing something like pulling a turnip or out of a roll. Various stuff like that. Plus, I think there might be more times where you can just go out after Samus when offstage. I am not sure how well you might be able to directly contest stuff like her UpB, but in situations where Samus must use her Zair or DownB for recovery you can intercept at that point.

 

[Oaty]

What are some MU specific things I can practice on my own against Falcon?

 

[DoH]

Auto cancelled bairs

 

[g_f]

interesting, odds for stitch + saturn + bomb + sword add up to 2.5%, meaning you've got more than a one in five chance to pull out one of those in 10 pulls. odds to pull out either actually are IN YOUR FAVOUR (namely, >50%) if you use your down+B at least 28 times. people in commentary always make it seem like it is some sort of dumb luck... ?_?

 

[Oaty]

interesting, odds for stitch + saturn + bomb + sword add up to 2.5%, meaning you've got more than a one in five chance to pull out one of those in 10 pulls. odds to pull out either actually are IN YOUR FAVOUR (namely, >50%) if you use your down+B at least 28 times. people in commentary always make it seem like it is some sort of dumb luck... ?_?

Well I've never seen commentators freak out over somebody pulling a Mr.Satrun or Beam sword, so when you take the odds of just the Bomb and stitch it is not something that shouldn't happen more than 2 or 3 times a set. It also is kind of dumb luck when you pull a stitch or bomb. Obviously if someone is mad because they lost due to a stitch/bomb or hell even beam sword they are just salty and looking for a way to john their way out of the loss, but it's not like I'm thinking of probabilities when I'm pulling turnips so when I do get a bomb/stitch it certainly feels like dumb luck.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Yeah, so I want to find out if it is possible to manipulate peach's actions into being able to determine what turnip pluck she gets since in theory you might be able to control the RNG withing the game by your actions.

Hope this goes well.

 

[AozoraX]

Matchup advice on Falcons and Foxes are still very much needed. Falcon is an easy edgeguard but oh my god is it the worst experience on stage.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Against Falcon, focus your game around staying grounded and non committal. He punishes us really hard in general, but specifically for being aggressive (unless we've got him in a techchase or something), Falcons like defaulting to spaced nair against us, because it deals with her basic float heights pretty well, so you want to:

1. Stay grounded when you're not that close to him but STAY MOBILE on the ground. Lots of WD back, dash dancing. You don't have the large DD that he has, but Peach's moves are generally larger, and a lot faster (I'm speaking of nair/bair here). You're staying mobile in order to avoid grabs and change how Falcon can approach you (the closer you are, the more likely it is that you can threaten him with dash attack, and so he has to respect this (he'll be more wiling to throw out shields/jumps to evade potential dash attacks). The further away you are, the more he needs to worry about you pulling a turnip or setting up a float that he can't punish). He'll generally resort to DD'ing while closing space, scouting for a bad turnip pull or a bad float.

2. Look for moments when you can either shield the nair for a punish, CC it for a punish, or a dash attack it (rather risky vs him) for a punish. You'll more often than not need to WD back to get the punish on his nair, because of how far his jump sends him. WD back into downsmash, shield, dtilt, dash attack are all decent punishes. SDI up + away on his nair is good as well.

Against Falcon, keep the amount of laggy moves (hopeful dsmashes, hopeful dash attacks, hopeful FJ nairs) that you throw out to a bare minimum. You can use some low FC bairs to force him to respect you in neutral, but only when you've gotten close to him, so he can't threaten you with the full length of his dash jump. Avoid jumping when there's a decent amount of space between you two (his dash jump length gives him much more leeway to interact with you than vice versa), but when you're close, you can use low float aerials to pressure him/keep him locked down. Our aerials start faster than his, so when you're close, you can catch his jumps with nair/bair, as well as just exert overall pressure over Falcon. Especially if you suspect a dair from him, nairing his jump/startup of dair is a decent strategy vs him.

Fair is still good in this matchup, as it is in all matchups, but be very guarded with how you set up for it. It is very vulnerable to being beaten by nair/uair. I recommend saving it for when you're close enough to threaten Falcon and keep him from wanting to jump (or when he's in shield).

Working a good pressure mixup game when close (FC bairs/nairs into grab/dsmash), mixed with a good, conservative game when you're further away from him (Using your short but potent mobility to scout out approaches/feign openings and punish Falcon with WD/DD) will help you in this matchup. Keep your turnip pulls restricted to edgeguards or moments when Falcon is FAR away from you, otherwise they are easy for him to punish. Once you have one out, you can influence how he has to move on stage, but remember that you have turnips to poke/probe/inhibit your opponent's movement, NOT just as a means for approach.

Make sure you know your CG (1-77%, so basicaly 1-80%. And the "1" is important because the CG does not work from 0.) Know how to convert off of dash attack from mid 30s (grab, FC uair, SH uair, nair will be your main conversions). Also know how to convert off of dtilt (similar percents as for dash attack, though dtilt gives you more leeway with its higher stun). End your combos with him offstage, and edgeguard him from there.

Edgeguarding Falcon is fairly straightforward. If he's going low, you can usually float dair at the ledge and catch his sweetspot attempt. If you know he's going for a sweetspot and you have the time, WD FF to the ledge is extremely good and worth learning for every Peach. The goal is to put your aerials between him and the stage until he dies. If you get the opportunity to combo him back offstage (with a weak nair > strong nair, bair > bair, etc), then go for it. If you know the Falcon is going to go high, you can pull a turnip and try to control him that way, but high is generally the most difficult for Peach to cover. Try to hit him offstage as low as you can.

Defensive DI: Not much here to write. DI down + away on uairs most of the time (be careful if he's leading you offstage, down+away on an errant uair could kill you).
I've seen DoH (I think it was him?) DI uairs up and in, and that makes it tricky for Falcon to follow up, sometimes. Just don't DI straight up expecting knee, that only makes knee easier to hit.
Mix your DI up between down+away and up+in on dthrow. It will make the conversion harder for him if he has to react to your DI (rather than him just autopilot kneeing you). Look for points where you can DJ + airdodge out of the dthrow (normally on down+away DI, typically the hardest for him to hit).

Hopefully this helps, and isn't too confusing. My knowledge on Fox is sparse and ever changing, so I won't try to give too much on that front. Just watch Armada videos and try to look for how he gets his solid hits on Fox (it helps knowing how Foxes tend to deal with Peach's attempts to close the distance, assuming they're campy Foxes).

 

[Magnawolf]

what do you guys think is a good counterpick stage against marth in bo3 assuming he bans dreamland and you already won on bf?

 

[Xyzz]

Really depends on their strengths and weaknesses, but usually I'll go for FoD

 

[SpiderMad]

Can anyone link me tips on the Marth and Sheik MUs?

 

[ShroudedOne]

Marth, by Kirbykaze: http://smashboards.com/threads/vanz...ical-discussion.242179/page-304#post-14988156
http://smashboards.com/threads/vanz...ical-discussion.242179/page-304#post-14993609
http://smashboards.com/threads/vanz...ical-discussion.242179/page-304#post-14988282

Sheik:
Kirbykaze: http://smashboards.com/threads/vanz...ical-discussion.242179/page-312#post-15221178
http://smashboards.com/threads/vanz...ical-discussion.242179/page-305#post-15008067
Darkatma: http://smashboards.com/threads/vanz...ical-discussion.242179/page-311#post-15213394
http://smashboards.com/threads/vanz...ical-discussion.242179/page-295#post-14867540

Enjoy!

 

[Oaty]

what do you guys think is a good counterpick stage against marth in bo3 assuming he bans dreamland and you already won on bf?

I really like FoD so I almost always go there even over battlefield if I dropped Game 1 which was probably on Battlefield. It generally depends on you, but I think FoD is amazing for Peach in almost every MU.

 

[WIDL]

So, Marth has become a serious issue for me, and I think it is mainly patient Marths. I think I struggle because I can get a little impatient and greedy in the matchup sometimes (in other words, should I try to approach the matchup more like you would approach the Jiggs matchup?) Do any of you have some general pointers? I'm moving to the US next month, and I should get to understand the matchup better, even if I won't play the same guy (in the video below) for a good while. With that being said, we played 2-1 in pools and our matches are always really close (does not look like it in first two here) - I wanna be the one that edges out the close sets.

http://www.twitch.tv/smashnorge/c/4769999

 

[CAUP]

The video doesn't work for me but use lots of turnips. Why? Turnips beat everything Marth has on the ground forcing him to jump. You always want to be below Marth. Space him out with bairs until you can draw a turnip. Then just throw it. Don't jump and throw it. Just backwards throw it. The jump is useless.

Now that you've spaced him out either wait for him to mess up and approach or do a special strategy I made.

1 Pull turnip
2 short hop and throw the turnip at the same time
3 the distance should be were it will hit near the bottom of marths shield
4 He has four options
....... 1 He Sheilds
............ 1 Get above his sheild and dair either that or drop down quickly grab and up throw him. If he DIs into the dair, nair
......... 2 He catches the turnip
............. 1 Same as before. Dair him. He won't have time to jump up to your level to throw it before you get there
....... 3 Fair through the turnip
.............. 1 Just move back and do whatever you want with him
.......... 4 He power sheilds
................ 1 This is the only bad option, you're screwed

It's a lot more intuitive than it sounds He has some other options but they're all bad. Also I recommend watching Armada vs PPMP EVO 2014. The first match really highlights what I'm talking about

 

[john!]

more importantly... calle w still plays?? why does he never go to US tourneys?

 

[WIDL]

CAUP: Thanks! I do struggle with them managing to sneak in a dash-attack and proceeding to juggle me, though. :/

john!: He barely goes outside Sweden. Gothenburg is like 3 hours away from the Oslo area where this tournament was held, and buses between Norway and Sweden are really cheap. So, I'm guessing money-time-commitments. Calle W just recently beat Android at a local too, so he's looking pretty strong nowadays.

With all that being said, I'm moving to the states soon (to West Chester in Pennsylvania) - anyone on the Peach boards know how the scene is around this area (around Philadelphia I suppose)?

 

[ShroudedOne]

I know Pittsburgh has a pretty strong scene right now, but I'm not sure how close that is to where you'll be moving.

 

[Strong Badam]

Cactuar and Zhu live in Philly, among others.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Hey all,

I went to the Toronto monthly last weekend, Melee Night in Canada 6. I was in KirbyKaze's pool, and made it out in 3rd to bracket.

I only got my set vs KK recorded. I know I could be doing better (that sd in the first match, for example, I'm well aware I messed up). Any other tips or comments you can think of that the commentators aren't mentioning?

Here's the set: http://www.twitch.tv/acgamesonline/c/4776446

 

[AozoraX]

Hey guys, I need some help vs Fox in a certain way.
Often I find myself being trapped or walled out by bairs with no way to get past, it bites through turnips and all approaches.
How do I get around this - especially when I'm trapped on the side of a stage like YS? It's such severe option coverage...