VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[ShroudedOne]

You should focus on moving in ways that let you react to nair and punish it (as in, try to be in places where, if you DO get naired, you can either CC it or shield grab it). Armada likes doing this often, making changes to his spacing on the ground to make the Falcon's nair hit in a way that they didn't expect. That's kind of a vague explanation, but I'm not sure how to elaborate.

 

[KeithRep]

What up Peach boards. Long time reader, first time poster. I'm hoping to get some advice on what I should do differently in the Marth matchup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk8BJJX0Xgg&list=PLKFh2XJy5STifV7reIGq7hFZhBwR3YCjp&index=7

This set is pretty indicative of my results vs. the actual Marth mains of my city/region. Anything helps!

 

[Purpletuce]

You can put out the occasional dair when you're above marth to keep him honest when he is trying to punish your landing. Also, I personally wouldn't have taken him to FD, because it is really hard to land in that MU, especially without platforms. Wish I could help more. . .

Also, I saw me in that video! Mainly just commenting because I saw me.

 

[Xyzz]

Usually the main problem is that newer Peach players try to play the matchup way too aggressive. In your case the main problem simply seems to be that you don't punish hard enough, I think... which is pretty unfortunate, because there's little advise to be given ("combo better" is probably not quite going to cut it :D).
Well, there were some other issues:
- you don't avoid his kill moves well enough; he really shouldn't be allowed to land those as freely as he did. Usually your stock should go something like "he gets a grab. When you touch the ground again you're at 70. he spends the next minute or so continuing to hit you with stuff like fair, which isn't really doing a whole lot. At some point he actually manages to sneak in a uptilt and you die". Hopefully at some point in between you managed to dish out some pain yourself. (:
- DI away on fairs. Getting ken comboed sucks, it remedies his low killing potential. He might get tricky and start doing nairs, but even with away DI those don't kill for a very long time (and your recovery situation doesn't turn too bad from it either haha)... really, if you're not 100% sure he's trying to finish you with his next move (and actually can... the power of his aerials isn't too scary), hold away in the air.
- Resetting to neutral when coming down from above them could be a bit better... this is of course easier said than done, especially if they're good about catching you (and your opponent did a really good job there). But if he's getting so much mileage out of that, don't take him to FD (platforms are a great help to get down in "steps" :D). I think you landed on side plats sometimes and still got caught by the uptilt. Angle your shield downwards and wait for the inevitable uptilt (why wouldn't he do it? It's virtually risk free, unless you can shield drop (although I think Peach still can't directly punish because of her slow falling speed... good thing I play Falco nowadays :D)). Afterwards you can WD oos to slide off and regain a floating position (or if the situation still smells fishy just jump and wait in float and see if you can get them to overcommit trying to reach you).

 

[knightpraetor]

(although I think Peach still can't directly punish because of her slow falling speed... good thing I play Falco nowadays :D)).

fastfall. definitely punishable. i do it every day

 

[Xyzz]

They really can't get their shield out before your (presumably) nair hits them? (also: Any idea about how many frames Peach can waste?)

 

[knightpraetor]

not a clue, you can either shield drop or float drop. there are 20 frames of lag on marth's uptilt (assuming he iasa cancels it). both float drop and shield drop should work if your timing is on. I would guess float drop has 2-3 frame leeway and shield drop should have a massive window for hitting. the only time i could foresee it not being possible is on dreamland platforms when he's max ranging the uptilt

 

[KeithRep]

I do have quite a bit of experience in the matchup now, but I've always struggled with it. My combo game is definitely weak across the board too haha. I failed to capitalize on like, three opportunities on the last stock of game 1 alone.
That's a great way to think about the DI in this matchup, definitely gonna tell myself that before every game. Also, when I'm thinking of it I do try to DI my shield down and then float drop after the stun. Still working on integrating that into my everyday repertoire though.
I usually like having the extra on-stage room that FD offers (vs. Marth at least). But you're definitely right, it's way easier to get down with the platforms and he was doing a good job of keeping me up. I didn't factor that in to my decision lol. I think I just wanted more room to run because he was playing really aggressively. But instead he just started reading my airdodges. and ken comboing me. and I made a few tech mistakes. Eggz is definitely the better player though, so this outcome wasn't surprising. Seeing his Marth instead of his Fox was surprising.
Thanks for the help Xyzz!

 

[CAUP]

How should one go about spacing Marth out? What options should be used to approach?

I'm currently doing a lot of dash dashing, low bairs, turnips and shot hops bit not doing a lot of good.

Help would rock!

 

[Oaty]

Using Turnips against Marth is absolutely essential. If Marth starts throwing out fairs or a Nair and you can get under him Dash attack him. Dash attack works very well against Marth as long as you don't do it on his shield or something dumb like that. Really against Marth I try to play as patiently as possible and camp him out with Turnips and once you can get under him go for some combos.

 

[CAUP]

Thanks! I've been using turnips a lot and have noticed they're really helpful.

One problem I'm having is pretty stupid but it's beginning to actually be a problem. When I want to save a jump and do a high up b I seem to always use my jump and waste it for a fraction of a second. How can this be avoided? What button order?

Thanks!

 

[Xyzz]

Using up-b (and similar side-b moves) makes you lose your jump even if you don't tap-jump it away. It's just gone, without having used it.
You can do a up-b without jumping by not moving the controlstick all the way to the top, similar how you can do uptilts without tabjumping this way (you could of course hold up while being in lag of something else or move the stick slowly... but who'd want to do something so situational / slow :D)

 

[CAUP]

Doing the control stick like that works perfectly. Not sure how I didn't think of it XD

Also now that I'm thinking of it is there a way to do your float easily before your jump? Right now if I try to do it I waste my jump. I'm not a total noob though. These is the only situations I'm stupid like that.

Thanks so much for the help guys! Also is there a good video I could watch that showcases peach ditto?

 

[Xyzz]

Assuming you want to get into float midair without burning your DJ, there's two options to do that:
a) buffer the float from some move (recommendation: toad. The first time you use him in the air, you won't lose height)
b) at some point press down on the control stick and then x/y.

I think you need to do a) to get out of the tumble animation... in neutral state you can just do b)

 

[Oaty]

For the Peach Ditto I can't think of any good videos showing the MU, but I can tell you it's all about spacing. If you can outspace the other Peach you win.
I find Peach pretty hard to combo with Peach so you basically have to play campy and hope the other Peach grows tired of waiting and becomes aggressive.
Once the other peach is approaching and you can find openings to punish you can pretty much take control of the game and win.
If the other Peach does a dumb DA then it's a free punish just use a turnip an aerial, hell sometimes a Dsmash will punish them.
Also use tons of FC Fairs to space out your opponent.

 

[Xyzz]

Small random advice about peach dittos:
people don't use enough up air... they will continue to knock the other peach offstage with nair over and over when they could simply get under her for an upair kill during the recovery (Hbox does that a lot in the puff peach matchup, and it works almost as well when you're playing peach yourself)

 

[ShroudedOne]

Unbeknownst to a lot of Peaches, Peach combos herself pretty well, actually. Up until like 50ish percent. I would advise keeping close enough to her to punish her turnip pulls/stuff her float attempts, while not being in range of dsmash/in a range where you can react to dash attack. Then, once you have the lead, camping her becomes that much more effective (though you still need to be careful, because when you camp her you're giving her the chance to pull a stitchface/bomb and turn the tide).

 

[DoH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxFl7ycS0QU

Here's some Peach dittos for y'all

and me vs chu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-VpBTHSwnQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B0OTZ026fE

omg help me fight ylink

 

[rolfcopter]

Hey guys im a new-ish Peach player trying to improve game slowly.

Can someone explain what options Peach has while sitting on the ledge? I've tried mixing it up by doing get-up attacks and rolling onto the stage, but often these do not work in my favor.

 

[john!]

well your main options are:

- basic get-up
- get-up attack
- ledge roll
- ledge jump
- up-b
- double-jump from ledge

the last 2 are the riskiest

 

[MacD]

if you have your float you can use your double jump > float and that normally throws people off

 

[rolfcopter]

Thanks guys!

I guess there aren't that many safe options on the ledge. Any tips on mixing things up? People tend to know what I'm doing so normally getting on the ledge is a free stock for them.

 

[Xyzz]

Actually, there is NO safe option on the ledge; everything can be punished directly (well except letting go > float > regrab in perfect execution to stall... but well that can be indirectly punished by stealing the ledge from you... whatever :D).
Well, and if you're really just using the ledge attack and rolls, that's limiting your options yourself. If your opponent has a way to cover both at the same time, you will get punished every time he doesn't mess up his execution.
There's no reason to refrain from using Peach's neutral get up, it's super quick and puts you in a place entirely different from Peach's very far ranging ledge roll.
Throw in some up b stalls, if they do stuff like standing between the places you can end up in and shield on reaction of you starting a animation (to avoid the ledgeattack) and it's starting to be really tough for them.

It's feasible to react to any standard thing Peach can use to return to the stage, so if the people who you played have learned to do so, you're out of luck... but it's more likely that you're just too obvious in what you are doing. E.g. many newer players will react with some sort of attack from the ledge when their opponent moves into the "threatened space". Those sort of things where you react to triggers your opponent deliberately gives you is a very good way of getting punished, he doesn't even have to read you, he can just make you do something instead. So verify that they don't just get to push your buttons.

Also make sure that you're acting as fast as possible and don't do the same thing every time. If you use neutral getup and shield every time, you might not get punished for the getup, but they might just grab you and throw you off again, over and over... and well, wasting frames is obviously never good. They might make the difference between you getting a hit on your opponent or being punished instead.

Also ask yourself whether they get significant punishes (e.g. "you're at 90% and ledgeroll past them and they fsmash you for 20ish percents, causing you to reset into a neutral position on the other side of the stage" is barely relevant in most match ups). Peach on the ledge is super limited, paying a little toll to get back into neutral is perfectly fine. Tbh, if I know that's all my opponent will be able to get in that specific scenario, I wouldn't mind handing it to him every single time.

DJ from the ledge is a fairly intersting alternative. It's pretty risky (you blow your DJ), but you have enough aerial mobility to make it fairly ambiguous when exactly you're going to return, a super far ranging aerial (fair) that can beat lots of things, and a great airdodge (through them or up to the side plat).

 

[ShroudedOne]

I've been playing with her reverse ledgedash (known as Hax dashing). If you do the angle so you go back to the ledge, you get your float back, which can help for things like jump from the ledge > float to search for a potentially better way to get back to the stage. You can also bait them into swinging into you, and DJ > waveland back > DJ aerial. It's just...difficult to do consistently. It's just an idea to think about, I don't advise toying with it until you're more comfortable with her.

I got the idea from Excel Zero: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2sWTkG2Zd0&feature=player_detailpage#t=133 @ 2:13

Everything Xyzz posted was 100% good.

 

[ViVio]

When I watch high level peach players go for grabs, they usually just do a dash grab instead of a jc grab. Is there an explanation for this? I would imagine that jc grab beats dash grab in almost every scenario so I'd like to hear some reasons why I see people dash grab as peach anyway.

 

[Xyzz]

Start up is the same (actually one frame less for dash grab, since with jc grab you need to spend at least one frame in jumpsquat before you can cancel, i guess)
jc grab has less ending lag,dash grab has better range.

You decide which is more important to you.

 

[ViVio]

Ah okay. I was under the impression that I should always jc grab but after watching some videos of some players not using jc grab I wasn't so sure. Thanks for the answer!

 

[Xyzz]

It's a bit character dependent. Lots of characters mainly want to use their jc grab, some have grabs whose superiority really depends on the situation, and a few (I only know about Yoshi) really want their dash grab over their standing grab.

 

[ViVio]

Yeah, being a former DK player I developed a habit of always using jc grab because his dash grab has super punishable lag. Then I saw peeps sometimes not jc grabbing with peach which made me realize that I shouldn't autopilot my jc grabs and actually think about what grab to use. Now it's just a matter of learning when to use which grab.

 

[Oaty]

When you Fair someone's shield what is the smartest option to follow up with?

 

[Xyzz]

Yeah, being a former DK player I developed a habit of always using jc grab because his dash grab has super punishable lag. Then I saw peeps sometimes not jc grabbing with peach which made me realize that I shouldn't autopilot my jc grabs and actually think about what grab to use. Now it's just a matter of learning when to use which grab.

With Peach I'd almost always say "dash grab". Theres 10 frames or sth difference in ending lag, and jc grab is super punishable already, so who cares.

When you Fair someone's shield what is the smartest option to follow up with?

The one that counters the reaction you expect out of them.
Your main options would be:
- grab: "hits" frame 7 and should beat any oos response that isn't active on frame 3 or earlier because of the frame advantage you get, prominently including even buffered shield rolls. Too bad that in reality you rarely get the luxurity of hitting their shield with an unstaled aerial the very frame you land. It'll still obviously work great if they expect you to follow up with something faster and just hold shield. And you shouldn't be so bad in your execution that your grab will lose to theirs.
- dsmash: hits frame 5 and tends to be okay on shield, because many people aren't good at punishing it oos and it might even shield stab if their shield isn't fresh. Many Peach players overuse this one, and it's a quite okay all-purpose move. Watch out for fox buffering full jumps oos if your execution isn't on point... makes you look rather stupid, if you keep spamming it under that circumstance.
- jab: hits frame 2 (or 3? can't remember) and will beat basically every attempt to move at all. You can actually hit their shield while they're still in stun from the fair (which should be avoided if you think they buffer stuff, in order to allow their move to begin and then interrupt it). It's also somewhat okay on shield, because it's fast (takes about as long to finish the animation as the human reaction time is), but is actually really unsafe on shield. So if they expect it, they can punish you for it. Use this move when you expect them to try and move, and aren't confident in having gotten enough frame advantage in your execution to beat them with another option. You can follow up with any of the other options, or the 2nd jab.
- dash away: obviously doesn't produce any hitboxes at all, but with moderately good execution you can outrange their response and then return for whatever you want to. Fairly underused option, and I always advocate using it more (I even have a quick clip of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZvUo2dMEqQ :D)

 

[ViVio]

Noted, I greatly appreciate your input.

 

[Boondocker]

Is Toad viable at all? It comes out in 10 frames, which admittedly is a little much, however it can easily turn the tide of the match. One little thing that I noticed is that if you approach while floating close enough to the ground and use toad, you will land during the animation and you wont continue in the direction that you were floating in. This can allow you to continue a combo without having to go through a landing animation. I feel like toad is especially good in the Marth matchup. Toad also has a hitbox directly below Peach, so he can cover you when you are trying to land. Opponents (especially Marth) are usually predictable when juggling you. Overall I feel like Toad is an underrated move. Are there any videos of Peaches using him?

 

[Oaty]

I don't think toad is a viable option really ever. it can be a way to throw off your opponent and stall yourself while in air ,but I don't really see a use for it besides that. Toad is far too high risk vs reward for me to ever throw out anyway so I honestly can't tell you about his uses.

 

[john!]

using toad instead of shrouded one's ledge waveland (or vice-versa) is a good mixup

 

[Xyzz]

Using toad gives you some damage, but never comboes into anything, requires your opponent to hit you, and the winddown is super long. You have to be super sure that they're going to trigger it, else it's not worth using.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Sometimes they hit you even after getting hit by toad, before toad's lag is over. Toad is honestly her worst move by a big margin (though it still has very very niche use).

 

[Magnawolf]

I actually found an incredibly useful scenario to use Toad in.

Basically when you have no jump left and you're floating below a Fox holding the ledge (who is getting ready to shine spike you or roll off right when you up B) you can either Toad when they go for a shine and it'll hit them or you can Toad when they think you're gonna up-b after your float ends (the fox will roll to edgehog you) and you will stall in the air for longer and then you can up-b to grab the ledge.

Sometimes they hit you even after getting hit by toad, before toad's lag is over. Toad is honestly her worst move by a big margin (though it still has very very niche use).

Toad is definitely not her worst move. I'd say her up-tilt is actually more useless. There is no situation where up-tilt is a better option than lowfloat uair/side tilt/up-smash/etc. Toad is a unique move, and it can turn her around in the air in certain situations where you need to do so. It makes her rise in the air for a second and it helps stalling in air. I'd say her side-b is even worse than Toad. The reason people can't recognize situations where Toad is a great option is because people tend to see it as a poorer version of Marth's down-b. It's a completely different move in my eyes, with different characteristics and although the situations where it's useful as slim, those situations still exist. I think Toad is underrated. It sucks but I think its still underrated.

I consider myself an experimental Peach player though. I've been trying to incorporate Toad, side-b and her up-smash a lot more into my game. Her up-smash is incredibly underrated. It can kill at really low percentages, especially with miss-DI since no one expects it.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Toad only covers her stomach, basically. And Fox will usually wait for you to do something in that position anyways, so if you toad, he'll just wait until it ends before he shines you.

Shine also reflects toad spores!

Uptilt is faster than FC uair, and has a good amount of invuln on it (you don't always have time to set up the float). Ftilt only hits in front of her, and upsmash is a bit slower (and the higher knockback prevents combos sometimes). People just don't look into it as a move. Hits under the side platforms of YS/FoD really well and is surprisingly a good anti-air (when they're coming from behind or you don't quite have time to upsmash)...I definitely won't say it's better than upsmash most of the time, but it's a good option sometimes (I'd argue moreso than toad).

I dunno, I believe in uptilt. If only toad covered her fully, I'd like it.

 

[Magnawolf]

Toad only covers her stomach, basically. And Fox will usually wait for you to do something in that position anyways, so if you toad, he'll just wait until it ends before he shines you.

Shine also reflects toad spores!

Uptilt is faster than FC uair, and has a good amount of invuln on it (you don't always have time to set up the float). Ftilt only hits in front of her, and upsmash is a bit slower (and the higher knockback prevents combos sometimes). People just don't look into it as a move. Hits under the side platforms of YS/FoD really well and is surprisingly a good anti-air (when they're coming from behind or you don't quite have time to upsmash)...I definitely won't say it's better than upsmash most of the time, but it's a good option sometimes (I'd argue moreso than toad).

I dunno, I believe in uptilt. If only toad covered her fully, I'd like it.

I like how you discredit it without even trying it lol.

Fox cannot cover all options purely on reactions. Also, Toad actually covers a significant part of your body. Peach ducks her head lower than Toad's head, so if you're floating behind Fox, there's no way you can get hit without him hitting Toad. The moment Fox hits Toad, Peach is invincible as well. Toad doesn't cover behind you at all though obviously, which doesn't matter because you shouldn't be floating in front of Fox on the ledge anyways (it does happen sometimes on FD and in that case you could even turn around with Toad to protect you).

Here are the 3 things that will happen if you Toad a Fox trying to shine you

1) Fox's shine will hit Toad, and he will get hit. You are invincible for 8 frames the moment Toad hits Fox's shine and he will spew out spores on the 8th frame. The first spore cannot be reflected. This usually happens when a Fox is directly above you and hits Toad with a shine, Fox will be inside of Toad and will get hit on the 8th frame, when you're invincible and Toad spews out his first spore (the first spore hits above Toad).

2) Fox's shine will hit Toad, and the spores will be reflected. This happens when Fox is further away horizontally so he avoids the first spore but he reflects the second spore and you get hit. You will go up a bit and you can try to up-b back on the stage or maybe air dodge depending on the situation.

3) If Fox will has ledge invincibility (it's really hard for a Fox to refresh invincibility if you're floating under him), you will get shine spiked. To avoid this, don't let Fox refresh the invincibility. If you see him trying to refresh it just up-b to grab ledge.

Try it out sometime (or don't if you don't want to). The scenario of having no jump and floating under Fox is a dismal situation to be in but we've all been there. I'm not saying this will work all the time or even 50% of the time.While most Peach's normally have two options (up-b-ing after the float ends or before the float ends) Toad brings in a third option. It's always better to have more options and it works (I know from experience, not just from reading it and discrediting it).

You're right, up-tilt can be useful to poke through the platforms on occasion. But for me, It just stays out way too long and prevents combos. FC Uair is only 4 frames slower (negligible) and you can recover from it 24 frames earlier than up-tilt. Up-smash is only 4 frames slower than up-tilt and also has invincibility in the hands/head. F-tilt has a slightly longer hitbox (7 frames vs 4 frames on up-tilt) and actually does hit above her, not just in front of her. I say I use Toad more per match than up-tilt which might make me the crazy one I suppose.