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VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)
- Thread starter Cia
- Start date
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
The video capture device you linked, this might sound silly, but do you know how it works? The reason I ask is I have a netbook (very slow and small), and I'm not sure if it could use the video capture device properly. Would it matter?
MacD
Banned via Administration
i mean you are going to have to do your own research to see if your system can handle it.
also tomorrow night i think i might be going over someones matches and trying to give advice. we'll see how it goes and if it's something i want to keep doing or not
also tomorrow night i think i might be going over someones matches and trying to give advice. we'll see how it goes and if it's something i want to keep doing or not
I'm watching through some of your past broadcasts where you are practicing tech skill and I thought it was pretty informative. Although I always pay close attention when you are talking about peach techs, I really enjoy when you play other characters and practice them. Sometimes it is easier for people to learn with players that are learning things themselves than it is for pros to teach because the viewers get to watch the process of truly practicing new techniques. You said that you are looking for a way to get more viewers and help players that don't main peach. Dedicating certain amounts of time to different characters will probably help you reach both of those goals. Maybe you will develop a nasty falco for singles too 
I would also suggest putting up highlights of when you are focusing on certain techniques or when you are answering viewer questions by showing them how to do things, like when you were showing how to do those quick nairs. Its usually the case if someone has a question and it is worth answering somewhat in depth, then other people will have the same question. If you want I can make suggestions of what parts I find informative considering I am pretty much a new player. Just let me know before I go through too much of your broadcasts, so I don't have to spend too much time going back through old ones
Oh btw what is the reasoning behind not needing to shield drop with peach? It seemed like you were ground floating then dropping, which allowed you to fast fall instead of falling at the regular speed from the shield drop. I know you aren't too worried about the most optimal method when it comes to a few frames or something, but I am curious if this is what you are going with.
I would also suggest putting up highlights of when you are focusing on certain techniques or when you are answering viewer questions by showing them how to do things, like when you were showing how to do those quick nairs. Its usually the case if someone has a question and it is worth answering somewhat in depth, then other people will have the same question. If you want I can make suggestions of what parts I find informative considering I am pretty much a new player. Just let me know before I go through too much of your broadcasts, so I don't have to spend too much time going back through old ones
Oh btw what is the reasoning behind not needing to shield drop with peach? It seemed like you were ground floating then dropping, which allowed you to fast fall instead of falling at the regular speed from the shield drop. I know you aren't too worried about the most optimal method when it comes to a few frames or something, but I am curious if this is what you are going with.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
You can't really shield drop > aerial with much hope of hitting the opponent anyways because of Peach's slow falling speed. So the frames you lose from jump > float > drop aren't that significant for Peach. Other characters can actually counterattack if they're fast in their execution and lack the easy-mode route
Jethrotex
Smash Journeyman
If someone is pressuring you on a platform you can drop - float aerial and hit them. Most spacies won't realize you're gone and proceed to sheild pressure the air.
MacD
Banned via Administration
no one expects peach to randomly just fastfall through a platform at them. sfat, lucky, and fiction all complimented me on it and had no idea how i did it.
if anyone ever see something worth highlighting, i don't mind checking it out and seeing, but i probably won't think about it unless something super specific came up or someone in the moment told me to highlight it
if anyone ever see something worth highlighting, i don't mind checking it out and seeing, but i probably won't think about it unless something super specific came up or someone in the moment told me to highlight it
thesage
Smash Hero
Do you guys have any recommendations to remove rustyness and can you update me on anything new that has happened in the last 6-8 months?
In that case I'll keep track of times where I think it might be good to highlight things while I watch
The Irish Mafia
Banned via Administration
i've been practicing that float oos -> drop through the platform -> lcancel nair. very nifty
Babatunde
Smash Journeyman
That sounds pretty good too esp with nair cause of how it trades even if they do expect it.
MacD
Banned via Administration
i do nair or uair depending on the situation, but both work wonders
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
I think shield drop uair is really good against fastfallers who are doing rising aerials at mid %s. It sets you up for a platform techchase, where you're below them. If they're too high they can jump out and you can't reach them. If they're too low, they won't get knocked down, which isn't too nice either.
I don't think it is really a huge benefit though (as a response to them attacking you).
I don't think it is really a huge benefit though (as a response to them attacking you).
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Have the fair hit low (using whatever input method tickles your fancy), press grab 7 frames after that (slightly slower than wavedashing). Peach can drop tons of frames by hitting high on shields and then taking forever to land because of her super slow fallspeed, which is most likely your not nearer specified "problem".
Bair can be usually used as a faster, less far-reaching version of fair. Tends to be best when used directly above the ground. So in the most basic version you can throw out a bair whenever you expect them to try and approach you. And for some reason, bair induces the desire to shield grab you, which obviously doesn't work... like here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZvUo2dMEqQ
But yeah, mostly as a spacing tool in neutral / combos. If your back is turned to them, bair whenever you would nair if you were facing towards them.
Bair can be usually used as a faster, less far-reaching version of fair. Tends to be best when used directly above the ground. So in the most basic version you can throw out a bair whenever you expect them to try and approach you. And for some reason, bair induces the desire to shield grab you, which obviously doesn't work... like here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZvUo2dMEqQ
But yeah, mostly as a spacing tool in neutral / combos. If your back is turned to them, bair whenever you would nair if you were facing towards them.
Okay I get what you are saying with the Bairs, but for my Fairs I am usually starting high and then dropping and Fairing, then l-canceling and jabbing twice. Could this work if I just try to grab instead of jab?
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Ypu don't have to L-cancel your fair if you start it while floating (it'll autocancel with 4 frames of landing lag regardless of any stupid L-presses
Jab is okay.
It'll most certainly catch any attempt to act OOS, but jab on shield isn't safe (okay, because you can act before they can really react to the jab, but still not great).
If you just try to grab you have to be a lot more perfect in your execution (getting a low fair and grabbing ASAP), and you can't grab perfect (buffered) spotdodges and rolls only if you're perfect in return (you are not).
I'd mostly go by what you think they'll do:
Do you think they'll hold shield afraid of a dsmash or jab? Just grab em. Our throw game is good.
Will they try to act right after their shield? Jab em to stuff their response, try more jabs / grab / dsmash afterwards (people are bad at responding to the jab. Nobody ever punishes it, ever).
DD is also really good after an aerial (as I keep repeating). You have frame advantage and go into DD on a shielding opponent. What the hell doesn't sound amazing about this?
really, just try to place your fair as low to the ground as possible and everything is dandy on shield.
Also: I am drunk out of my mind and leaving for a SF in less than 10h, and still need to sleep and pack my ****. I am an idiot :D
Jab is okay.
It'll most certainly catch any attempt to act OOS, but jab on shield isn't safe (okay, because you can act before they can really react to the jab, but still not great).
If you just try to grab you have to be a lot more perfect in your execution (getting a low fair and grabbing ASAP), and you can't grab perfect (buffered) spotdodges and rolls only if you're perfect in return (you are not).
I'd mostly go by what you think they'll do:
Do you think they'll hold shield afraid of a dsmash or jab? Just grab em. Our throw game is good.
Will they try to act right after their shield? Jab em to stuff their response, try more jabs / grab / dsmash afterwards (people are bad at responding to the jab. Nobody ever punishes it, ever).
DD is also really good after an aerial (as I keep repeating). You have frame advantage and go into DD on a shielding opponent. What the hell doesn't sound amazing about this?
really, just try to place your fair as low to the ground as possible and everything is dandy on shield.
Also: I am drunk out of my mind and leaving for a SF in less than 10h, and still need to sleep and pack my ****. I am an idiot :D
MacD
Banned via Administration
i am streaming random tech tonight
Bored. practicing tech skill for like an hour. come watch and chat with me!!! http://www.twitch.tv/macdsmash
Bored. practicing tech skill for like an hour. come watch and chat with me!!! http://www.twitch.tv/macdsmash
yo dumb question cuz I don't play this game
How much if at all does the optimal SDI on fox's uair change based on where he's hitting you? Like, I usually go straight up and I have some success, but if fox is like a little to the right of me should I go left? Is there ever a situation where going down works (like if he tries to hit me with the lower part of the hitbox so that I have to do more SDI inputs to escape upwards)?
How much if at all does the optimal SDI on fox's uair change based on where he's hitting you? Like, I usually go straight up and I have some success, but if fox is like a little to the right of me should I go left? Is there ever a situation where going down works (like if he tries to hit me with the lower part of the hitbox so that I have to do more SDI inputs to escape upwards)?
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Yes, changing ones SDI based on the opponent is super helpful.
Keep in mind that it's not only his current position that is important but also his momentum. The easiest way to get out of upthrow upair is DIing the throw behind him (so he has to use some frames to turn around which will make it rather hard to connect with the up air in the first place) and then SDIing towards him as he flies past you.
Maybe they can actually counter that by hitting in a way that will make you SDI right into the second hit, but that'd probably at the very least cause them to miss the strong hit if you miss the SDI input :D
and yeah, SDIing upwards is good if he's barely scratching your feet and his jump won't carry him any higher
Keep in mind that it's not only his current position that is important but also his momentum. The easiest way to get out of upthrow upair is DIing the throw behind him (so he has to use some frames to turn around which will make it rather hard to connect with the up air in the first place) and then SDIing towards him as he flies past you.
Maybe they can actually counter that by hitting in a way that will make you SDI right into the second hit, but that'd probably at the very least cause them to miss the strong hit if you miss the SDI input :D
and yeah, SDIing upwards is good if he's barely scratching your feet and his jump won't carry him any higher
Babatunde
Smash Journeyman
What if he uses the second hitbox to hit you if thats even feasible?
Also im trying out shield drop and jump into float into going through a platform into nair, are they used to relieve platform pressure cause i like to avoid that by just floating of of range :D
Also im trying out shield drop and jump into float into going through a platform into nair, are they used to relieve platform pressure cause i like to avoid that by just floating of of range :D
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Hitting with only the second hitbox is a thing, I think I've seen Leffen do it the most.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Sure all SDI only applies for double-hit uairs.
Technically you can input SDI on the second hit as well. It's just not like it had much of a beneficial effect
Technically you can input SDI on the second hit as well. It's just not like it had much of a beneficial effect
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
peach is so hard to choose stages for. with so many good ones, how do you choose? I feel like the neutral stage I like least is BF vs spacies, and even that doesn't seem to matter to me much ( you can knock them under the stage really easily).
I don't think you're crazy for not being able to figure out which stage you like. I could think of a reason to like almost all of them, except stadium. Stadium feels like it's just strictly fox's best stage.
I don't think you're crazy for not being able to figure out which stage you like. I could think of a reason to like almost all of them, except stadium. Stadium feels like it's just strictly fox's best stage.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
I really like BF against Fox and don't like it vs Falco, don't ask me why though :D
Jethrotex
Smash Journeyman
Pokémon is okay during its neutral form, the platforms are really nice for setting things up, but the transformations are disruptive.
Battlefield is okay but I don't think it's a good CP vs Fox just because most Foxes get wrecked on FOD, Dreamland and FD, and they can only ban one. The platform size does make it tougher to chase Fox and they always seem smarter on that stage. Fox on Yoshi's goes too aggressive and gets death comboed because they have no space, or they try to camp and you're in the face so they die. On Dreamland they camp too much get hit once and die, but on Battlefield they usually maintain a good balance. Battlefield is mainly your best starter vs Marth, Sheik, Puff.
Yoshi's vs Fox can be pretty amazing depending on how you play because they can't capitalize off their mobility and it usually takes them 3 strings of hits to kill you regardless of the small stage; you can kill them in one since they just fly into your arms no matter where you send them. It's also fairly okay vs Falco although he kills you in 1.5 - 2 strings of hits.
FOD is good vs everyone, Dreamland is good, but make sure you're not taking a campy player there since it gets frustrating and if you don't have the mentality to deal with a fox running away from you, you're better off not taking him there.
Yoshi's is tough vs Marth and Sheik and less than stellar vs Falcon & Puff, also it's a weird stage for Peach dittos because it's sort of roshambo in that whoever hits the other player in the nuts first wins. By that I mean it's hard to comeback from getting hit in the nuts because now the lower half of your body is in sever pain, because your nuts are very sensitive to being hit. Also, Peach trades with herself a lot and it's hard to out zone your opponent if you're behind on that stage.
Battlefield is okay but I don't think it's a good CP vs Fox just because most Foxes get wrecked on FOD, Dreamland and FD, and they can only ban one. The platform size does make it tougher to chase Fox and they always seem smarter on that stage. Fox on Yoshi's goes too aggressive and gets death comboed because they have no space, or they try to camp and you're in the face so they die. On Dreamland they camp too much get hit once and die, but on Battlefield they usually maintain a good balance. Battlefield is mainly your best starter vs Marth, Sheik, Puff.
Yoshi's vs Fox can be pretty amazing depending on how you play because they can't capitalize off their mobility and it usually takes them 3 strings of hits to kill you regardless of the small stage; you can kill them in one since they just fly into your arms no matter where you send them. It's also fairly okay vs Falco although he kills you in 1.5 - 2 strings of hits.
FOD is good vs everyone, Dreamland is good, but make sure you're not taking a campy player there since it gets frustrating and if you don't have the mentality to deal with a fox running away from you, you're better off not taking him there.
Yoshi's is tough vs Marth and Sheik and less than stellar vs Falcon & Puff, also it's a weird stage for Peach dittos because it's sort of roshambo in that whoever hits the other player in the nuts first wins. By that I mean it's hard to comeback from getting hit in the nuts because now the lower half of your body is in sever pain, because your nuts are very sensitive to being hit. Also, Peach trades with herself a lot and it's hard to out zone your opponent if you're behind on that stage.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
I personally like YS vs Sheik, Falcon, Puff, and Falco >_>
I would also like it in the ditto but Peaches never let me go there. Fox on YS still scares me, but it's not bad. I counterpicked a Sheik to YS this weekend and he looked at me and said, "Really? That's a surprise." But I really think the stage is a lot better for the matchup than it would seem.
Because our stage selection is amazing, I would advise picking stages that suit your personal comfort levels, rather than what you necessarily "should" choose. At least for now. I personally lose worse on FoD than I do on YS, even though I would say FoD is her best stage, period. And while I should putt he effort into getting over my FoD weakness, I feel like picking places where you're comfortable does more for you, IMO.
I would also like it in the ditto but Peaches never let me go there. Fox on YS still scares me, but it's not bad. I counterpicked a Sheik to YS this weekend and he looked at me and said, "Really? That's a surprise." But I really think the stage is a lot better for the matchup than it would seem.
Because our stage selection is amazing, I would advise picking stages that suit your personal comfort levels, rather than what you necessarily "should" choose. At least for now. I personally lose worse on FoD than I do on YS, even though I would say FoD is her best stage, period. And while I should putt he effort into getting over my FoD weakness, I feel like picking places where you're comfortable does more for you, IMO.
Babatunde
Smash Journeyman
Floating over Falco lasers constantly gets aimless for me. Like i float over SH laser height, then i gotta fastfall when he FHs with it. And when i get a fair hit on him from like 0%, Where are the followups? I think i wanna try picking up DOH's PS game and rack up percent that way lol.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Hitting fair at least gets you a techchase; if he techs away, you might not get a follow-up hit, but you've gotten lots and lots of stage. Birds with their back to the ledge can't really laser you too well
Babatunde
Smash Journeyman
Ah, techchase! I remember our dashdance is good enough where we can try and commit to whatever he does in case he misses it.
DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
http://www.twitch.tv/texasmelee/b/489445449
Got some sets recorded this weekend. They're going to be up on youtube at some point, but if you're itching for something over the break...
Me vs ARC (Marth) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwtikzuQ6g
Me vs Mojo (Falcon/Marth/Fox) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRmSfc0kAAk
Me vs baka4moe (Peach dittos!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxFl7ycS0QU
Me vs Tirno (Falco) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw4-Dkoxdjc
Got some sets recorded this weekend. They're going to be up on youtube at some point, but if you're itching for something over the break...
Me vs ARC (Marth) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwtikzuQ6g
Me vs Mojo (Falcon/Marth/Fox) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRmSfc0kAAk
Me vs baka4moe (Peach dittos!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxFl7ycS0QU
Me vs Tirno (Falco) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw4-Dkoxdjc
DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
No, BF is terrible vs Sheik. She can outmaneuver you on the platforms and set up needles all too easily. FD is way better, and even FoD. Yoshi's isn't that bad since you can kill her pretty easily which negates her ease of kill set ups; as long as you're avoiding getting grabbed it's much harder for Sheik to kill you than you her on this stage. Also she can't camp you.
FD is your best starter vs Marth (assuming they ban DL). No platforms means he doesn't get a speed boost, and you get space to freely combo him and pull turnips if necessary. For the same reason, FD is also your best stage vs Puff; she can't lurk under platforms, and you can chase her down.
I'm ok with Yoshi's vs Fox since it cuts his mobility down sharply (it's also pretty good vs Falcon players, depending on their style) but it's the worst stage vs Falco since one wrong DI on a shine and you're dead off the top at 40. I'm not sure why Armada always strikes here vs PP though, probably so he won't be camping the top platform on DL/BF.
I'm starting to think Yoshi's is pretty good vs Marth as long as you don't get tipped. The stage limits his movement, which is one of his key advantages in the matchup. You can corner him pretty easily, which means you don't have to fight as much to get into his range. He gets kills a little earlier here, but you get the A LOT earlier. Avoid throws into tippers and you're pretty good, since Marth doesn't have much to work with. Sheik as i mentioned before is kind of ok here, but less than ideal. I usually play Sheiks here on game 2 since I generally ban BF against them. Yoshi's is great vs Puff; anything that allows you to kill her at 70 is great, and she is still gonna have to get you to over 100% to get solid kills outside of rest. I don't like Yoshi's for dittos, but that's mostly because my DI is generally better than other Peach players and I want to use that to my advantage; also there's slopes and shenanigans and you can die at 70 with an unseen nair.
The Irish Mafia
Banned via Administration
landon I really need help with shiek, mostly because I try to play vs her like I play vs spacies. the players that give me trouble are reno and tope
Get Low
Smash Ace
So, I almost never get any of my matches recorded, but over the weekend, I did get one set recorded.
And if any of you don't mind, if you'd like to watch the set and give some advice as to why I'm bad against Fox, and just poor at this game in general,
that would be greatly appreciated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfdsyvM9OwU
And if any of you don't mind, if you'd like to watch the set and give some advice as to why I'm bad against Fox, and just poor at this game in general,
that would be greatly appreciated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfdsyvM9OwU
Jethrotex
Smash Journeyman
I'll concede most points towards stages being bad, I wanted to try somethings on the stages and found a few useful tricks that really help in small quarters.
Although vs Sheik and Marth I think FoD is just a better Yoshi's since you probably won't be killing them off the top that often. Vs Puff it's just a stylistic thing.
Although vs Sheik and Marth I think FoD is just a better Yoshi's since you probably won't be killing them off the top that often. Vs Puff it's just a stylistic thing.
DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
More stuff from this weekend:
Vs Redd (Fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7lfQzmVVRU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpTxoOJkixI
vs Milkman (Fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niQQle7EbtU
Vs Redd (Fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7lfQzmVVRU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpTxoOJkixI
vs Milkman (Fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niQQle7EbtU
AozoraX
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2012
- Messages
- 95
As I watch videos I don't see how anyone enjoys the Marth matchup.
But as a general question: what kind of exercises do people do to practice OoS FC Nair or other type of specific Peach tech? I feel like my FC game is lacking
edit: are these matchup tips Vanz made still the same to this day? there's bound to be new tech ;_;
But as a general question: what kind of exercises do people do to practice OoS FC Nair or other type of specific Peach tech? I feel like my FC game is lacking
edit: are these matchup tips Vanz made still the same to this day? there's bound to be new tech ;_;
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
I usually just play against some low-mid level CPU (usually Falco). I let him forward smash my shield, and then I try to FC nair out of shield as quickly as I can. His fsmash has a decent amount of shieldstun, so it gives me enough time to..."get a feel for the timing." I'm not sure how else I can explain it.
Once I feel like I've gotten the timing down for that, I go into actual matches and try to see what other moves I can punish with FC nair OOS. You generally want to use this to punish them if they're around 70 or higher (it's your fastest OOS option that'll knock them offstage/closer to the edge and set up for an edgeguard).
That's how I practiced it, anyways.
--------------
Now for my own question. How do you guys prefer to go about 'interacting' with Fox's dashdance? We're not Fox/Falcon/Marth, with our own DD, nor do we have Falco lasers for disrupting it. I've been feeling lately that whenever I try to interrupt his DD with, say, dash attack or a float aerial, I get baited into swinging where he no longer is. And then I get hit.
I figure I need to pay very close attention to when he's dashing away from me (here I can perhaps push forward a bit with a WD or dash, or initiate a float...perhaps pull a turnip depending on how far away he is from me when he dashes away?) but I find it really hard because he's got pretty strong pivot options (and strong options in general when his back is turned). So then I started thinking I should instead think about punishing his dash forward? I'm not really sure how I want to...stop him from dash dancing. All other aspects of his game (platform camp bair, straight up lasering, etc) I at least understand how to approach those, even if I don't execute it well enough yet...but his dashdance has me seriously confused.
Once I feel like I've gotten the timing down for that, I go into actual matches and try to see what other moves I can punish with FC nair OOS. You generally want to use this to punish them if they're around 70 or higher (it's your fastest OOS option that'll knock them offstage/closer to the edge and set up for an edgeguard).
That's how I practiced it, anyways.
--------------
Now for my own question. How do you guys prefer to go about 'interacting' with Fox's dashdance? We're not Fox/Falcon/Marth, with our own DD, nor do we have Falco lasers for disrupting it. I've been feeling lately that whenever I try to interrupt his DD with, say, dash attack or a float aerial, I get baited into swinging where he no longer is. And then I get hit.
I figure I need to pay very close attention to when he's dashing away from me (here I can perhaps push forward a bit with a WD or dash, or initiate a float...perhaps pull a turnip depending on how far away he is from me when he dashes away?) but I find it really hard because he's got pretty strong pivot options (and strong options in general when his back is turned). So then I started thinking I should instead think about punishing his dash forward? I'm not really sure how I want to...stop him from dash dancing. All other aspects of his game (platform camp bair, straight up lasering, etc) I at least understand how to approach those, even if I don't execute it well enough yet...but his dashdance has me seriously confused.