VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[Ryobeat]

Can you guys help me with some videos? Basically I would like critique on the Falco Matchup and my general Peach skill(meaning like, things with Peach that I am messing up that doesn't particularly have to do with fighting falco. Ex. spacing, turnip control, options out of shield, decision making , etc)

Here are the videos;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f6H3KcdvXU&list=PLhCzZubWAeA_z-zLnTPeOCdQBdQ7J3nHd&index=2 Btw go to 17:00 to see the LAMEST phantom hit ever LOL. Phantom bair that would have killed him and put the set at 2-2 was a phantom

and here's the second one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kflwU5dSH40&list=PLhCzZubWAeA_z-zLnTPeOCdQBdQ7J3nHd&index=6
Few things that I think I pointed out for myself, let me know if i'm correct/expand on what I'm saying if you can I'll look over the matches as well but it's better if I can get some other perspectives;

-I use little to no turnips, and my control with them is off.

-I'm kinda gimmicky when I reach high percents. But I honestly don't know what else to do in high percent situations. I remember I came here one time to ask how to rack up percent on your opponent at higher percents. You'll see in my play how I deal with it, but I personally can't see another safer way to do it. Help?

-THIS ONE IS URGENT. I really want to know if I'm seeing this right; is it me, or does my reaction time seem kinda slow? Like, a little below average. When I watched I saw that, or I reacted SUPER fast, but I'm not gonna give myself the benefit of the doubt and say that it gets better over time. I think I just hard read at that point. Anyone else see the same thing?

Thank you guys for any critiques/advice you give in advance!

(NOTE: PLEASE DON'T TELL ME ABOUT MY DESPERATE DOWNSMASHES, I WAS SUPER UNCOMFORTABLE IN THE MATCHUP AND THEY WERE OUTPLAYING ME SO I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO DO LOOOOL. Basically, the desperate downsmashes will go away if I understand what I should be doing :3 )

 

[Heero Yuy]

Puff is by far Peach's worst matchup - the one character I cannot beat with Peach. 30:70 in Puff's favor, but it's probably no worse than that. 2nd worst would probably be Sheik or CF, though I'm leaning towards CF.

How do you guys normally handle Falco's shield pressure? I'm pretty good at powershielding and floating over lasers when he's far away, but usually my friend loves to bash on my shield with excessive shines and aerials. The only thing I can think of in this situation is UpB OoS.

 

[Xyzz]

Nothing they do is airtight, there's always gaps. If they go late dair -> shine -> early fade away aerial, you can't really do anything direct, but they can't follow up with more pressure either, so it's okay as well.
If they keep iterating shine -> aerial on your shield, watch what they tend to do, either the aerial is early, which will allow you to counter afterwards, or it's late, which allows you to counter before it comes out. You obviously can't react to that kind of thing, but watch for tendencies.
If you're uncomfortable with that, just wait for a while and roll/WD out once you see the chance and try to work from neutral. Rolls are really okay, *IF* you don't get predictable with it. Rolling away every time early into their pressure is horrible and will get you punished, but if you counter attack sometimes, and don't just always roll immediately, but rather just hold shield for a while, it's rather ballsy for them to try and chase down your roll with movement, because they risk getting hit out of it quite a bit of the time. Well, obviously WD is safer afterwards, but roll has invulnerability rather soon into your movement, so choose accordingly. WD tends to be better, if you know it's safe to do so, but some rolls don't hurt either.

Nair (both float cancelled and full jump fade away) is a really good oos option for a counterattack, as is our grab (because it grabs really, really high in comparision to others). They're both fast (come out frame 7), and tend to be of devastating effect :D
Just make sure you really watch out for what they do, precise counter attack timing is hard enough if they keep hammering away at your shield, and if they just go for the short chain of late aerial - shine - early fade away, you will never get it (but rather get hit out of your nair by his aerial first ). Also: be wary of making sure they really will be in range of your attack. If they manage to outspace your grab, that can be pretty hurtful (waveland away > fsmash is such a fun mix up as falco :D)

 

[knightpraetor]

what are the best ways to deal with dashdance camping from fox and falcon? do you tend to overshoot floating aerials to catch them or do you just bait until they approach (maybe using turnips?). 3rd option i can see is trying djc to continue a chase if they look to be dashing out of range. Just curious what people tend to favor. especially vs falcon i'm unsure whether I should risk pulling a turnip, and right now I play kind of aggro heavy in the air and don't have too much experience at peach's ground game

 

[Xyzz]

Turnip pull vs Falcon sucks from neutral. I always bring the same example, but still... in the time it takes you to pull a turnip, that friggin guy short hops from one PS plat to the other (and can throw out a knee, if he feels like it).

And another thing I kind of stand by:
low lvl peach = throw out dsmash until they get hit by it
high lvl peach = throw out fair until they get hit by it.
Friend of mine and i sorta agree on one thing about Peach: people losing to her look like they're ********. She really doesn't get to do **** at all, until the opponent does one slight mistake and jumps into her **** and well..... dies from it :D
(if you want to, I'd be super up to give you my thoughts on a match of yours, KP )


wellllll... and in general: Play a spacing game, and wait for them to **** up. (fairs are suuuper good at claiming stage from neutraL). Peach has a hilariously effective punishment game, and people really are not as precise about their neutral game as they should be. So deal with them to be advantaged at every corner, and **** them up whenever they ask for it.
Seriously, fastfallers just melt (and kinda HAVE to go in at some point) <3
If they really are good at that, Peach has little no chance to get anything. Luckily, I sort of doubt anybody is at that level.

 

[knightpraetor]

It's really just fox and occasionally falcon that give me trouble with it. with marth I would utterly absolutely destroy them for dashdance camping with either dash attacks, grabs, or rapid dtilts at my leisure. Peach seems to have a much harder time dealing with it, so that there are quite a few times when I know that my opponent is highly likely to retreat in the next few seconds, but the risk of overshooting the fair seems too high for the amount of reward I could get. I could just keep turtling myself, but sometimes I get tired of being patient, especially in friendlies. It's possible that I just need to play lower to the ground on offense though, as perhaps my tendency to enjoy playing high and safe makes it easier to space around my fair as I land.

I will experiment more no doubt. If i can get a set of peach vs falcon up against wenbo i'll post it. Falcon and fox seem the best at abusing their dash against me...but foxes tend to be too busy lasering or jumping around platforms to dashdance camp me for any real length of time. Not to mention there are also foxes that are strictly better than me and just play rushdown without any care

 

[Xyzz]

Haha, I totally agree with a lot of things in that post. The added speed of Falcon and Fox really goes a long way in making their DD less manageable for Peach, I think. There might be other subtle differences (like their ability to actually kill Peach from a grab), but I think that's the main deal.
And that fox thing... yeah, they tend to be horrible at playing the matchup correctly. Although we can't really blame them, since we both seem to have that patience issue thing as well xD

 

[DoH]

Puff is by far Peach's worst matchup - the one character I cannot beat with Peach. 30:70 in Puff's favor, but it's probably no worse than that. 2nd worst would probably be Sheik or CF, though I'm leaning towards CF.

How do you guys normally handle Falco's shield pressure? I'm pretty good at powershielding and floating over lasers when he's far away, but usually my friend loves to bash on my shield with excessive shines and aerials. The only thing I can think of in this situation is UpB OoS.

No.

You can outplay puff. Falcon and Fox are so fast that it is infinitely hard to out play them due to their speed and ability to force options with their dash dance.

Puff just requires a different set of skills.

 

[Redd]

I died at puff-peach being 70-30.

Heero, check out DoH vs any falco, really. He has the best laser-PS-dsmash game of any peach you'll find. PSing in general really.

 

[CyberZixx]

Hey Peach boards, I am looking into gaining a greater understanding of Peach through playing her a bit. Not as a main but for my own enjoyment. Why? Because Peach is an awesome character and underused.

I am terrible at Peach at the moment. I just pull Turnips and Fair at people. I will grab more than I need to as well because Marth habits die hard I guess. I am used to Marths amazing movement and Peach's lack of that is hard for me to cope with. I don't know how to have an offence as her, or control/ pressure space.

What is the general idea for playing Peach in neutral?

How does everyone play Peach on the controller? Using the ctick for aerials does not seems great during floating because I am holding down X so I like A more as I can slide onto it from x.

 

[MacD]

yay smashboards is back!!!!!!@!!!!!!!!!

 

[DoH]

Now we have somewhere else to be cunty to each other

 

[Ryobeat]

Yessssssssssssssssssssss. I have too many questions

 

[Heero Yuy]

Hey Peach boards, I am looking into gaining a greater understanding of Peach through playing her a bit. Not as a main but for my own enjoyment. Why? Because Peach is an awesome character and underused.

I am terrible at Peach at the moment. I just pull Turnips and Fair at people. I will grab more than I need to as well because Marth habits die hard I guess. I am used to Marths amazing movement and Peach's lack of that is hard for me to cope with. I don't know how to have an offence as her, or control/ pressure space.

What is the general idea for playing Peach in neutral?

How does everyone play Peach on the controller? Using the ctick for aerials does not seems great during floating because I am holding down X so I like A more as I can slide onto it from x.

I tend to not C-stick with FC aerials unless it's a retreating fair or bair. So your method is a good start.

 

[Babatunde]

Creativity is a virtue~

AlsoQuestionthymehuehueh:
Is it really worth CCing Marth's stuff? I mean, if they space the hit well our Dsmash won't reach and it will promote bad habits imo. I prefer Spotdodging it then Dsmashing, thats a good tool for Peach against characters with long range in general it seems.

 

[MacD]

Now we have somewhere else to be cunty to each other

there's always something special about shade thrown in the peach boards

 

[Ryobeat]

Guys I need some serious help with my Falco neutral. I have a sick ground game, but Falco negates that. And as you will see in this video, my float game is REALLY sloppy. But I dont know what it means to have a good float game. Someone help?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-GOpufggG4

 

[Xyzz]

My impressions of the first game on BF:
I don't think there was that much wrong with the general neutral game, you do challenge him sometimes where you imho shouldn't (and rather see if you can bait him into trying to push his slight positional advantage by overcomitting and then punish that), but well, that's a) not the main issue, and b) at least partly a question of playstyle.
I think you should work on your edgeguards, he makes it back out of situations where it's really feasible to ensure his death. Maybe a bit related to that is your combo choices. You really go for rather elaborate stuff which you don't quite finish well. Imho that's really important about Peach combos, if you can take some additional percents or instead move him offstage, I personally would always go for the offstage opponent.
You use wayyyy too many double jabs; I'm really not a huge fan of those. I don't know if you have tons of experience against the Falco in question, and already know him to be super precise against jab -> other stuff... imho most players are horrible against these, because the jab is rather impossible to react to (e.g. jab > dsmash / grab in theory shouldn't really work on shielded jabs, but in practice do work rather well). Especially if you don't go into aerial > jab every time but mix it up well.
Tons of dash attacks into his shield: DA is a really strong move, because it works well against the common choice of defensive play, which is moving out of the way of attacks by dash dancing or similar things instead of shielding (obviously because it moves so far that it does catch their evasive moves at the end of their animation). If the guy you're playing against is willing to forfeit the generally better option and does goes for shield > punish on these, you should switch it up. Running into him with groundfloated nairs or just run up grab become really good, if he thinks he can just shield the DA.
Also: If you are pressured near the ledge, you have a strong will to roll towards center stage. He was clearly waiting for some of these, but failed to capitalize. Maybe you noticed that and decided to just keep going for it, because if you go unpunished why the hell not?

Started watching the second game:
Here there does seem to be some problem with the float game. Lasers are super good on FD, don't go there if you aren't sure about two things:
a) your float game must be on point
b) your chain grabs must be on point
You didn't even seem to have much confidence in the second point, judging by the choices you made (like the (not even successfully executed :D) dash attack on the first stock, and the backthrow on the second). And you do end up screwing it up quite a bit; it's probably fine (later you do seem to execute well enough). I personally wouldn't bother with FD until your CG is Vanz/DoH level (at least I think it was those two where I really tend to see that any grabs leads to a flawlessly executed CG into some aerial finish <3) ... don't just pick FD because it's supposed to be a good stage
Regarding the floats:
A) Getting there. You sometimes did weird jump attempts that get shot time and time again. If he does have you "locked down" with lasers, shield one, jump oos (practice these, laser stun isn't nearly as big as people in general do give it respect for) and go into float from there
B) Float height: You are way too high at times. Don't. Every pixel above his highest laser height is making it harder for you to react to his attempts to fulljump over you and dair you. I do recall at least one instance where he got that to work, which really shouldn't. You can definitely get a fair out in time to block him, or move out of the way. It also makes it way harder to get nice followups if you end up hitting him.

Game three:
haha, that FD game really made him notice that you have a problem with lasers :D
points of the last notes still stand, but here's something else regarding the float:
C) He ends up beating your float way too much with direct challenges, which really shouldn't happen. You do not abuse your aerial mobility enough, I think. Move in a way that makes it dubious as to when you will actually move in, or even if at all. Also make sure that when you do the crown is coming down right in front of you... that thing has ridiculous hitboxes but they need to be correctly placed. You can at the very least trade with any attempts to uptilt, but if he tends to do those, it can be better to not to try to challenge it directly but rather fake going in so he will do it and actually come in a bit later then he expects, so the hitbox will be gone (it's not a super long lasting move either, so, yeah...).
Also: He shouldn't really be able to get under you with that uairs. Pretty much the same point as the uptilts: Peach can move around well enough in float to really give her a huge advantage in placing hitboxes in relation to what the opponent does to challenge her, so it's possible to win here a lot. You don't; so practice really being able to weave back in forth in float. It's kind of like an aerial dash dance, that can be extended to everywhere and stopped at any point without technical requirements like pivots... pretty overpowered haha :D

 

[Ryobeat]

My impressions of the first game on BF:
I don't think there was that much wrong with the general neutral game, you do challenge him sometimes where you imho shouldn't (and rather see if you can bait him into trying to push his slight positional advantage by overcomitting and then punish that), but well, that's a) not the main issue, and b) at least partly a question of playstyle.

Thank you so much! I was kinda lost for a little bit with the whole floating idea, but I think I see now. I'll practice more and let you know

 

[AozoraX]

Hey guys, I don't have any videos or anything but
Can anyone give me a general outline of the Young Link matchup? I haven't fought it yet so I'm not entirely sure what to expect. The guy challenging me mainly plays Brawl but he's entirely smart and not to be underestimated.
Please share the various things that worked for you vs a Y.Link!

Thanks :D

 

[MacD]

lose

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5NUq4iSzik

gl hf though!!! =D

 

[AozoraX]

LOL man that's a good start

Also, if anyone could give me feedback for these two videos
AozoraX - Peach vs Alphicans - Sheik
http://www.twitch.tv/crouchingfiercetv/b/443236691 (4:44:27 where my set begins)

And VS. Fox
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Bka46bIAGI (this guy studying Mango)

Tournament popping up next week so I'll need every hit I can get. Rag on me all you can PLEASE

<3

 

[KirbyKaze]

@ macd

block the bomb or boomerang then jump out of shield into float more than not at all. you look kind of lost sometimes when he's tossing crap at you and you want to establish a float position.

turnip to aerial is not that effective vs YL's air game when he's coming off a platform or already above you. i think the turnip is mostly just to keep him grounded when he eventually comes down 'cuz you want him there since peach's ground game & air to ground game are better than YL's ground game.

when you do interception aerials like your FJ bair into more bair or other stuff i think you're overextending without realizing it. it looks like you're aiming at YL as if he was a space animal but he's not a furry he's just illegal so you have to approach him differently and adjust for some differences. like, his butter knife actually has more priority than their titanium feet so he might try to trade a kill dair or fade away fair for defense and you have to make sure you can deal with those (aside from when you tried to intercept him, I think you generally were good about this). what was less good was when you'd try to aggressively cut areas off or make him fall into your hitboxes when he had his DJ. like, for one YL is a mid-faller like Mario or Marth with fast attacks that surround his whole body. and his DJ is big enough to navigate around stuff like FJ bair while still being small enough to stay close enough to let him attack you during your hang-time unless you pull away or something. you have to play in those situations either differently or modify what you're doing to account for those factors.

don't d-smash his shield unless it's small 'cuz he can just shield grab you for it. spacies and sheik (and a lot of other characters) often need to WD OOS with different timings depending on which hit of the d-smash connected on their shield last to punish it. and if the last hit of d-smash connected, i don't think they can WD grab you (not sure if spacies can shine you, but the window is tight and it's a huge penalty for failing which factors in too). so there's a lot of factors that cause people to fail the punish and get caught in the d-smash's rinse cycle. but YL and his simultaneously more and less effeminate older version both have grapple grabs that are basically moron-proofed here so you can't get desperate with d-smash pressure. the plus side is that grapple grabs are god awful vs airborne foes so stuff like // fair > jump again into float just above his f-tilt range > more fair / hang around with dair // and other stuff like that is better than usual. also the extra 2-3 frames of startup on his shield grab lets you do // fair > grab // more effectively.

 

[AozoraX]

@MacD & @KirbyKaze

The more I read and watch the more I want you two to critique me.
I will make top ranks in Alberta!!

 

[KirbyKaze]

why would you want macd to critique you

all he'd say is combo off your misstep f-tilts better and d-smash more

>_____>



<3 mccain

 

[ConnorTheKid]

based on my experiences, mccain will also tell you "gg get better SCRUB" if you ask him for advice

 

[KirbyKaze]

this is true, connor. but AozoraX lives in the white part of Canada so there's a good chance he may be an underage slender blond boy whose face has mostly lost its baby fat except in his rosy, soft cheeks

so mccain would probably be nicer than usual

 

[john!]

now i feel like i should post a picture of myself next time i want advice... but wouldn't that technically be whoring myself out?

 

[AozoraX]

LOL dude I'm just an Asian guy, you can see my beautiful face in rah video with me vs Sheik
#noracial

But someone plz help, PM me or post and be as kind or as rough as you like :DD

 

[Xyzz]

Anything in particular you're looking for regarding critique?

Some notes on the first Fox match:
- 0:25 Might be a lot easier to say in retrospect, but I think when seeing his full jump dair, you can always manage to get in the dash attack instead of the grab, which is a lot easier to connect
- 0:53 - never fair in that situation. What are you attempting to beat? You will never win against up smash, so you will die here if he does it. You can't really expect to beat his aerial intercept attempt with a fair, because of the long start up. You don't beat him moving away from it. I really don't see it covering anything at all
- 1:48 I think, you could've reacted to the dj -> airdodge. The dj didn't really threaten to hit you with any aerial (maybe you would've needed to move back in ever so slightly for that, but yeah), so there was no need to get antsy and try to hit him, but you could've just waited to see what he would do. Well and the f smash after the dsmash is about as horrible as the one he did to initiate the whole situation
- 2:01 Same story as 0:53. Horrible coverage of his options, this time you at least bair which might work against his aerials, but yeah, it would've lost to up smash again, and this time he shows us the "move around it, grab after" option to beat it <3
- 2:12 that was realy nice of him. Just felt like pointing that out.

Aaand a general tip:
If I am not mistaken you didn't do a single attempt to punish his overagression with WD back > stuff. I'm pretty sure you could've gotten him easily with quite a few, because he imho was getting rather predictable (he did that "let me shoot a few lasers, but be 100% obvious about when I want to go in"-thing). Maybe he just did it, because he was getting away with it, but yeah.... he IS fast, and has some advantages in the spacing war for that reason, but you can't win there if you don't even try

 

[AozoraX]

Nice! Anything critiquey works. I have insane amount of trouble fighting his Fox and I'm not sure what move versus situation/options I could have.
Right now I'm pretty reactive and I think it's hurting my game.

Please continue! And thanks!!

 

[Xyzz]

Fox is a bit of a reactive match up by nature, I think. Furries on crack simply get to move around much faster than princesses in frilly dresses, so he gets to call the shots a lot of the time.

You just need to make things a bit harder on him by staying more mobile. If you just try to counterattack against his approaches while staying largely in place, he can just always pick good moves to beat just that. If however you present him with a wide range of possible threats, he can't easily cover them all. I think my favorite example here is this: If you move back in response to him getting closer, he has to jump later, which in turn would leave him open to you moving in and intercepting (e.g. with dash attack or a quick nair).
Well, and making him wary about what you do will prevent him from being in your hair all the time, which of course gives you the time and space set up more of your own things. I mean, if he just continues to jump at you first chance he gets, you can continue to wd back > stuff (dash attack (tends to beat like every aerial if the moment the two of you clash you are mostly horizontal to each other), dtilt, dsmash, grab are my favs).
Sure all these things sound super easy to say in theory; in practice it can be rather hard to really implement these things nicely, because he does have a significant mobility advantage, so his spacing game can be a lot better than what you can ever hope to achieve. But you can definitely force him to respect Peach's options or lose stocks in hilarious ways

 

[MacD]

omg KK you're killing me. KILLING ME

now i really really want to go to big house just for you

and i'd team with vanz or something

EDIT: i feel like KK was giving the others advice but directed it at me/my vid to make me feel special and not them. <3

 

[Babatunde]

What would feel really special is if all Peaches that go to BH3 went Pink~
For me? Plz? ;~:

 

[Gatoray]

Hey guys. I'm a Peach main here looking for some peachy Peach advice that's less about actual gameplay and more about technique. What is your preferred way of executing aerials while floating? Claw grip is awkward and hard to press Z with. Using A or Z for aerials technically works, but it messes with my movement in some situations, like when I want to retreat with a Fair.

 

[Xyzz]

i hold y and press a for aerials most of the time. If I want to do stuff like retreating fairs I shift to hold up on the control stick and use the c stick.

 

[Gatoray]

i hold y and press a for aerials most of the time. If I want to do stuff like retreating fairs I shift to hold up on the control stick and use the c stick.

So you'd have to press Y + DOWN -> UP - Y -> C-forward? That seems kind of cumbersome to execute when I want to spam retreating and/or approaching FF FC Fairs. I want to avoid using UP to float and jump for consistency and I've used X to jump for so long that it would feel weird to switch. Should I invest time into switching to Y? What are the benefits over X?

 

[AozoraX]

It's nothing but personal, iirc
I'm gonna try that Xyzz floating though, never thought about it that way

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm probably not going to BH3

 

[MacD]

oh well good, now i don't have to care again