v5 - Destined to have bad mobility: still in the same position

[Meru.]

Condensed Version
S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario, Marth, Ice Climbers
B: Olimar, Pikachu, King Dedede, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, Zero Suit Samus
C: Toon Link, Kirby, Fox, R.O.B., Pit, Peach, Donkey Kong
D: Luigi, Wolf, (Zelda/Sheik), Sonic, Ike, Sheik, Ness, Pokémon Trainer
E: Yoshi, Lucas, Mario, Bowser
F: Captain Falcon, Samus, Jigglypuff, Link, Zelda
G: Ganondorf

So, on the fifth tier list, Peach has not moved at all yet again: she is still 19th. She's higher than DK, but Fox is now higher than her :l.

 

[Razmakazi]

lol you wish this was important.

we don't have spectacular results on a large enough scale therefore we shud all win a tournament.

[/thread]

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Lol, what Raz said xD

I'm really not surprised, I'm just thankful that she hasn't dropped and it doesn't look like she ever will do. At least the only way for her to go is up

Currently, this is a pretty accurate position she should be in although she could have been above Pit and ROB, possibly even above Kirby at a stretch (but below Fox by a spot, with Kirby being below Peach)

Is Fox better than Peach? I guess time will tell. Currently (and this is a key word here), Fox has a better match up vs MK which that alone gives him the upper hand in comparison to Peach. He's got Shiek, IC's and Pikachu as counters though, all of which Peach goes even with or potentially beats

Unfortunetly, these counters are pretty rare in comparison to the legion of MK's that are hovering around

Hopefully, Peach will get a breakthrough like Fox did with TKD. I know she can do it. Until then, she's going to be stuck in C Tier

 

[Xyless]

Here's a quick reference of how each character has done in all of the tier lists.
Bowser: 22, 23, 25, 27/26, 32
Captain Falcon: 37, 37, 35, 32, 33
Diddy Kong: 11, 7, 5, 3, 3
Donkey Kong: 10, 14, 18, 18, 20
Falco: 5, 3, 4, 4, 4
Fox: 19, 24, 21, 20, 16
Ganondorf: 35, 36, 37, 37, 38
Ice Climbers: 13, 15, 11, 5, 7
Ike: 25, 26, 28, 29, 25
Jigglypuff: 34, 35, 34, 34, 35
King Dedede: 3, 4, 6, 8, 10
Kirby: 14, 13, 13, 16, 15
Link: 36, 34, 36, 36, 36
Lucario: 9, 10/11, 14, 11, 12
Lucas: 27, 28/29, 29, 28, 30
Luigi: 23, 21, 20, 21, 21
Mario: 29, 27, 30, 31, 31
Marth: 7, 6, 7, 6, 6
Meta Knight: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
Mr. Game & Watch: 4, 5, 8, 12, 11
Ness: 28, 29/28, 31, 26/27, 27
Olimar: 18, 11/10, 10, 10, 8
Peach: 24, 19, 19, 19, 19
Pikachu: 12, 12, 9, 9, 9
Pit: 15, 18, 17, 13, 18
Pokemon Trainer: 30, 32, 27, 24, 28
R.O.B.: 6, 9, 12, 17, 17
Samus: 31, 30, 33, 33, 34
Sheik: 26, 25, 24, 23, 26
Snake: 2, 2, 2, 2, 2
Sonic: 33, 31, 23, 25, 24
Toon Link: 17, 17, 16, 14, 14
Wario: 8, 8, 3, 7, 5
Wolf: 16, 20, 22, 22, 22
Yoshi: 32, 33, 32, 30, 29
Zelda: 20, 22, 26, 35, 37
Zelda/Sheik: NA, NA, NA, NA, 23
Zero Suit Samus: 21, 16, 15, 15, 13

Peach: 24, 19, 19, 19, 19

At least Peach has been MEGA consistent?

 

[Conviction]

Metaknight is more consistent XD

 

[Nicole]

its' stupid that peach didnt move at all, imo, and is below kirby, rob, and pit. what placings have those guys had? i think we have brought in alot of decent results that i can't imagine kirby/pit/rob mainers have managed to outdo. especially kirby...seriously, NO ONE mains kirby (besides chu obviously).

whatever. i dont really care about the tier list. i'll still try to do well with my ****ty c-tier character.

 

[#HBC | J]

I was so sad Peach didn't move at all T.T

You guys have been doing well it seems. Kindof shocked really.

 

[Eddie G]

Not like it matters. The majority of the BBR have no idea what they're talking about half of the time anyway. Their justification for Fox moving as high as he did was "he jumps high" and it "amplifies his camping". I'm dead serious.

 

[z00ted]

Yeah, I don't even care.

Peach is weird.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

All that needs to happen is that final push to get over the barrier of MK for her to get out of C tier/stop being underrated
I have a lot of faith that can happen and I certainly see the potential in some of you to do that

Hey Edrees/Praxis/Mikey, mind me asking where you guys put Peach in your votes?

Edit: Oh yea, if you look at the stats of how the averages turned out, Peach was very close to Pit's score if that makes anyone feel any better

 

[Praxis]

Not like it matters. The majority of the BBR have no idea what they're talking about half of the time anyway. Their justification for Fox moving as high as he did was "he jumps high" and it "amplifies his camping". I'm dead serious.

Wait, what are you talking about? I haven't seen anyone in the BBR say Fox is good because he jumps high 0_0 where'd you get that from?

The "stupidity" of BBR members is vastly exaggerated by the public, but there's a lot of contradicting views back there.

We have tournament results where a Fox (TKD) took first beating DEHF and Tyrant. I voted Fox better than Peach based on results. On matchups, it's arguable; he has some ridiculous bad matchups that Peach doesn't (Sheik, ICs, Pikachu), but he also runs even with most of the top tier and does much better than Peach. I think regions that haven't seen TKD play underestimate Fox.

Pit, on the other hand, I voted below Peach. -.- I see no results with which to bump him up high with.

 

[Razmakazi]

lol praxis, tkd beat me in winners that same tournament you're referring to. >_<

 

[Eddie G]

Wait, what are you talking about? I haven't seen anyone in the BBR say Fox is good because he jumps high 0_0 where'd you get that from?

The "stupidity" of BBR members is vastly exaggerated by the public, but there's a lot of contradicting views back there.

We have tournament results where a Fox (TKD) took first beating DEHF and Tyrant. I voted Fox better than Peach based on results. On matchups, it's arguable; he has some ridiculous bad matchups that Peach doesn't (Sheik, ICs, Pikachu), but he also runs even with most of the top tier and does much better than Peach. I think regions that haven't seen TKD play underestimate Fox.

Pit, on the other hand, I voted below Peach. -.- I see no results with which to bump him up high with.

That's basically what DMG said in the tier list topic about some members' reasoning, and that's all we really have to go by unless Pierce openly says something on the group's behalf. That leaves some people to feel as if decisions regarding the tier list have been made from the belief of a character's potential instead of consistent factual trends and results.

I wouldn't say exaggeration is the issue here, but yes the BBR is generally misunderstood by the public. Some people disagree with some of the members who have been enlisted in it, some people disagree with the method of argument that some use to address certain points back there (such as some of the top players back there posting minuscule details with the majority of their points being sheer opinion), some of the members are a part of that "other" extreme being those who abide by an over-abundance of logical dependency with an extreme lack of experience with the high level play in which they discuss. In short, there are a lot of problems from every angle and from each party. That is where some of the frustration and disagreement comes from.

I have a question of my own though; do you guys even have a standard ruleset/stagelist that you are obliged to base your opinions and votes off of? Or do the individuals in the group just go by what their perception of a standard ruleset/stagelist is while making said decisions?

 

[Praxis]

DMG also trolled that thread big time, LOL. I wouldn't go by what DMG's posting, and if DMG did in fact say that, then he's vastly simplifying those player's positions. Pierce argued that Fox's extreme vertical fall speed gave him special punishment options in certain situations, which is true, and perhaps DMG interpreted that to mean what he said.

But I certainly saw no one suggest raising Fox in the tier list just because "he jumps high", and there was a bit of discussion regarding Fox which included tournament results.

The fact that there's a wide variety of argumentative styles (emotional a la Mew2King and extremely logical with charts and tournament results a la Crow) just makes the discussions back there more interesting and the end result more solid IMO. Or would you rather that the end decision be made by a group of people that share the same bias, rather than voted on by people with vastly differing biases?

And don't say you'd rather there be no bias, because we both know that's impossible. The best compromises usually have both parties feeling the end result is somewhat wrong.

And yes, we assume the standard BBR ruleset.

 

[LanceStern]

I was a little disappointed, but I feel it's accurate.

If it was based solely off tourney results, Peach would be higher than ROB/Fox and maybe Kirby at the least. the Difference is they have solid #1/#2 wins in a handful of tourneys, where most of our Peaches top out at #5 (with a random #1 or #2 once in a blue moon and when the metaknights are on vacation).

But I don't think it is. Honestly looking at the list, Peach is where she needs to be right now. Can we honestly say she is a BETTER CHARACTER than anyone above her?

 

[Praxis]

If it was based solely off tourney results, Peach would be higher than ROB/Fox

Like I said above, Fox has won tournaments and gone through national-class players, including beating national-class MK's (Tyrant most notably), to get there.


ROB and *maybe* ZSS are the only characters I might see Peach being better than that are above her, but ZSS has results.

 

[Mikey Lenetia]

Another thing to keep in mind with how we vote is with LGL NOT being around. It was that in itself that saved Pit from me voting him lower than quite a few people. It may have had a bit of a hand in things, and as Praxis said, Fox DOES have a pretty big win under his belt(whether or not Fox can continue this and prove he deserves the placing has yet to be determined).

If anyone's interested in seeing my list(and the explanations with it), I'd be willing to show it, flawed as it most likely is.

 

[Brawlin]

Just finished posting what I thought about character placements(including Peach's placement) for the tier list on the v5 thread if anybody wants to look at it lol.

 

[_Keno_]

I would say peach is a better character than pit and kirby. I'm also still confused over G&W's position. He is terrible against people that know how to play brawl.
Peach seems (to me) to have top tier mindgame potential (fox and squirtle are up there too). Her float, and especially double jump give her absurd horizontal momentum changes.

And btw, I've found a combo that consistently works for peach (for me at least). If you double-hit back air someone (while you are both on or close to the ground at low %), you can grab them out of the stun. It works every time I do it (chances dont occur often, but when they do, it does ~22 damage + grab).

also, I loved the description the BBR gave of pokemon trainer.

 

[Xyless]

I would disagree with Kirby being worse than Peach.

 

[¿Qué?]

I would disagree with Kirby being worse than Peach.

True.

~Doesn't have to worry about recovery

~Duck can avoid grabs

~Momentum Canceling is actually pretty good. Good Kirbys live to around 160% Average.

~Kills are not that hard to land.

~Mobility in the air is pretty amazing. He has the ability to turn with each jump getting ready to Bair(Which has amazing priority amongst a lot of the cast).


Honestly, I don't care about Tier anymore.

I use Peach because she's a great character.


I think Kirby might be moving to B tier soon if more people start repping with him.

 

[Meru.]

I would agree with Peach being better than Kirby. Peach has much more going for her.

 

[Metatitan]

Peach has nothing new going for her, just a bunch of assumed potential. No one will prove jack diddilly **** unless they beat top non-mk players in tournament.

Look at it for how it is, we have a character with a great spacing game, great OoS game, good item game (but not very good items), good combo game, decent recovery (not great, not horrible), and a lack of a consistent kill move.

 

[_Keno_]

Peach has nothing new going for her, just a bunch of assumed potential. No one will prove jack diddilly **** unless they beat top non-mk players in tournament.

Look at it for how it is, we have a character with a great spacing game, great OoS game, good item game (but not very good items), good combo game, decent recovery (not great, not horrible), and a lack of a consistent kill move.

I would have to disagree with you on recovery. It really is truly abysmal. She has such a slow fall speed, her fast fall is slower than most peoples normal falling speed. Coupled with her terrible air dodge and slow horizontal movement, she probably has the least options of any character in the game. Sure, she can make it to the ledge as well as any other character, she just has trouble making it to the stage. Dair has nice priority, but it can be just as predictable as airdodge if your opponent knows the matchup.

What we seem to have going for us is what you listed, plus a lagless moveset and incredible mindgame potential (much moreso than most chars, maybe with the exception of squirtle and fox).

 

[TheMike]

she could have been above ROB

its' stupid that peach didnt move at all, imo, and is below rob

ROB and *maybe* ZSS are the only characters I might see Peach being better than that are above her

I honestly can't see ROB being worse than Peach with the current ruleset.

If it was based solely off tourney results, Peach would be higher than ROB

According to the Character Rankings list from July 13, Peach is one spot above ROB. However, tier lists aren't based only on tournament results. Matchups, for instance, are also quite important. And in this case, ROB is two spots above Peach according to the Matchups Chart & Lists from August 21. Furthermore, as Miley said, LGL wasn't around and, in my opinion, ROB > Peach without LGL.

 

[Eddie G]

Bah...I think some of you are just being too predictable on your recovery if that is your outlook. Unless you're faced with the ridiculous ultimatum that is Peach with only her parasol vs MK's edgeguarding...no excuses. Her recovery is fine. She has it better than a majority in the game by a long shot.

And sorry about being absent yesterday everyone. There was a sudden change in temperature here in Ohio (dropped from 91 to 64) and I got extremely sick from it. Still recovering from my nausea today, but yeah...my bad.

 

[_Keno_]

Bah...I think some of you are just being too predictable on your recovery if that is your outlook. Unless you're faced with the ridiculous ultimatum that is Peach with only her parasol vs MK's edgeguarding...no excuses. Her recovery is fine. She has it better than a majority in the game by a long shot.

meh, i dont think you read what i said. I said that peach has little trouble making it to the ledge, but that she has difficulty making it back to the stage.

Do you not see how this is a problem? A character that can only recover by going to the ledge?

 

[Praxis]

Raise your hand if you've been edge guarded by M2K.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Raise your hand if you've been edge guarded by M2K.

*Raises hand*

I played him in a friendly @ my 1st tournament

Tbh, Peach is a good character, but imo she is not really a great tournament character. I say this because of the technical skill/knowledge/smarts that is required to play her is greater than almost all of the characters above her. Also her base features already give her a disadvantage(air dodge, weak from below, slightly below-average KO power). If someone spent the time learning a top tier like Falco, who is a lot easier to learn, they probably would be more successful. As Mikey said earlier, Peach requires "energy." Her mobility is still average even with bone-walking and free-pull. Yes, Peach still has the qualities that can win her a tournament. It is possible, no doubt, but is it realistic? Probably, and I believe it can happen, but she still takes a lot of energy, technical skill, and a devouted player that bring her to her potential.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Peach's recovery is one of the only things thats really overrated for her imo

This is something I've been thinking for a while, I'm not just jumping on the bandwagon here. The only reason her recovery was good in Melee was because everyone elses recovery was so bad. In Brawl, there are so many characters with much more versatile recoveries than her

Float gets the job done and Peach Bomber helps but Parasol has such nasty landing lag that the safest method is to sweetspot the ledge and even then she can be edgeguarded by people who time it right (thank goodness for mix ups...or people who don't do it lol). Vs MK though, you really have to get it 100% right or you'll end up taking a crap ton of damage/dieing

Peach is alright when shes on the ledge but getting back onstage is really painful against characters with long range

 

[-Cross-]

No, Peach's recovery is not overrated. It's good, not great like KB said, and I was never under the impression that Peach had a great recovery. Of course I used to play Ike and then Marth, so my opinion is probably a little biased *cough*nohorizontaldistanceonupB*cough* But seriously just looking at her tools should give you an idea that she has a multitude of options.

Float, second jump, Toad stall (underused), footstool (never used lol), bomber, and parasol. The point I am getting at here is that Peach has a lot more mixup potential, and if you think that her recovery is one of her weak points overall (not in specific MU's) then I think you need to start thinking creatively. The opponent hugs the edge, stall with Toad then parasol. Second jump but float cancel and land an unexpected footstool or attack.

Also Peach players may need more of a Snake mentality on recovering. Sure it's great to recovery with no damage, but sometimes position gained would be more valuable than the risk of getting gimped. Against MK recovering high with parasol is not a bad idea. Say you got knocked off stage and you didn't need to do a second jump to survive. Then try instant parasoling and trying to recover from above. You will probably be at an insane height so first get to the center of the stage ASAP with parasol. Now pull an Armada. Considering that your horizontal movement is now ridiculously better and also better than MK, you can avoid if he starts a continuous jump towards you. Also if he happens to catch you with an attack (most likely uair), you now have all the options of which to mess with your falling speed. This is theorycrafting but it's ok since I am simply highlighting number of options, everything else just comes down to player skill.

tl;dr just because you are not untouchable when you recover doesn't mean your good recovery is overrated.

 

[_Keno_]

Raise your hand if you've been edge guarded by M2K.

*raises hand*

I think the MK peach match up is somewhere between 50:50 and 40:60 when peach is on the stage, but 0:100 when peach is hit off of the stage.
Against MK, Peach has little hope in recovery except for mixups...mixups that are almost slow enough to be beaten out by reaction rather than prediction.

Float, second jump, Toad stall (underused), footstool (never used lol), bomber, and parasol. The point I am getting at here is that Peach has a lot more mixup potential, and if you think that her recovery is one of her weak points overall (not in specific MU's) then I think you need to start thinking creatively.

Yes, peach does have plenty of tools to recover, but they are all extremely slow, with the exception of the initial parasol attack. Parasol can only be used effectively near the ledge, which leaves peach with few real options.

As for your armada scenario, the MK could simply ground itself until peach is low enough to ****. His run speed is much faster than peach's umbrella aerial speed.

Also, peach's recovery in melee is absurdly good Rickerdy. Her vertical falling speed could be changed from very slow to very quick and vise versa almost instantly (with a nice hitbox too), and her horizontal movement was moderately fast.
Brawl peach's fall speed goes from very slow, to very slow but only slightly less slow than previously.


What I'm trying to say is that Peach has two options: predictably go for the ledge, or unsafely go for the stage. Characters with better air dodges and faster fall speeds can safely go for both (and because there is more than one safe option, it is less predicable what that char will do).

These recovery problems I'm talking about really only apply against certain characters and on certain stages.

 

[Praxis]

It's also really bad when Peach is in the air over the stage. MK can react (as oppose to guess the mix-up) to Peach's dair or airdodge, which are her only return to ground options that don't simply reset the situation, if he positions himself correctly, and her fall speed is slow enough to allow him to position himself.

When both characters are grounded, yeah, I feel Peach does fantastically against MK. It's just once she gets hit, and the opponent knows how to react and has good reaction time.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Toad blows for recovery or just stinks in general. Whiff him and you get spiked/smacked by something horribly strong. You can't even use him unless you're high up because if someone does set off the counter, you drop to your death

Peach isn't Snake - he weighs like a ton of bricks and Peach is paper in comparison. Taking a hit up rather than getting gimped is always favourable though. MK doesn't need to jump towards you because his ground speed is so fast

Her recovery gets the job done which is great but it can still be iffy vs people who know how to deal with it so you require mix ups and stuff. In match ups like MK it really could be better

 

[Eddie G]

Raise your hand if you've been edge guarded by M2K.

*Raises hand* probably more than any other Peach in here.

@ Cheap Peach- I'll just agree to disagree, but then again I speak from my own experience of getting back to the stage (even from the ledge) against many different good players (Will, Lee Martin, even M2K here and there, just to name a few). Difficult at times, of course, as with any character. Truly abysmal...I don't think so.

 

[-Cross-]

Peach isn't Snake - he weighs like a ton of bricks and Peach is paper in comparison. Taking a hit up rather than getting gimped is always favourable though. MK doesn't need to jump towards you because his ground speed is so fast

Her recovery gets the job done which is great but it can still be iffy vs people who know how to deal with it so you require mix ups and stuff. In match ups like MK it really could be better

True did not consider ground speed. Guess I still have much to learn about this character.