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- Thread starter Veril
- Start date
Fair enough. Fair enough.
well my Johns include the fact I am not the board director, like Illin' and have not stumbled apon a gold mine of info which I can make tons of different threads about.
Also my life is busy, I research, but I wait for input, which no one offers.
well my Johns include the fact I am not the board director, like Illin' and have not stumbled apon a gold mine of info which I can make tons of different threads about.
Also my life is busy, I research, but I wait for input, which no one offers.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Oh I just stepped on a goldmine of info. Think of perfect frame data for everything in a few days.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Ohh but you obviously never remember melee. I know this goes against Thinkaman's post but the debug mode literally caused huge exploits to be created because of frame perfect stuff and all that. Now help me out please.
*helps*
but I can't do much more than that since my Wii isn't hacked, and It's never going to be.
My wii almost brick last time i tried, the economy is just too bad to go spend money on another wii.
you can't top economy johns.
but I can't do much more than that since my Wii isn't hacked, and It's never going to be.
My wii almost brick last time i tried, the economy is just too bad to go spend money on another wii.
you can't top economy johns.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Fine....... I wonder if it works in replays though. So if anyone has a messed up replay, I think I could look at it frame per frame. I could notice your DI's, your moves and everything.
PND
Smash Champion
Here's the fundamental difference: Examining patterns and mindgames cannot be taught, and they cannot be learned by reading about them on a forum. It takes practice and experience in order to read opponents like that, which we cannot translate. We can give specific scenarios, but we can never truly impart that knowledge onto another player. It's great that you've got a thread for it, as it can get a player started on realizing what they have to learn, but they cannot learn it FROM your thread.
Frame data can be studied, taught, and learned through a forum, and it will effect the game and playstyle. This is less important than the above in gameplay, but more important on a forum. Thus, I would say we do not have "enough" of that stuff, in fact, I welcome more of it.
Can I just commend the effort people are putting into running this board and the research that goes on behind the scenes? Everything is so organised and well done... by far the most organised character boards IMO.
Keep it up guys and gals. I can seriously see good things happening on the horizon for dearest puff ^^ I've picked her up and she's a solid backup of mine now. I'd love to have some dittos to reflect on my playstyle against the more experienced.
Keep it up guys and gals. I can seriously see good things happening on the horizon for dearest puff ^^ I've picked her up and she's a solid backup of mine now. I'd love to have some dittos to reflect on my playstyle against the more experienced.
PNDMike was all like: Here's the fundamental difference: Examining patterns and mindgames cannot be taught, and they cannot be learned by reading about them on a forum. It takes practice and experience in order to read opponents like that, which we cannot translate. We can give specific scenarios, but we can never truly impart that knowledge onto another player. It's great that you've got a thread for it, as it can get a player started on realizing what they have to learn, but they cannot learn it FROM your thread.
Frame data can be studied, taught, and learned through a forum, and it will effect the game and playstyle. This is less important than the above in gameplay, but more important on a forum. Thus, I would say we do not have "enough" of that stuff, in fact, I welcome more of it.
And that's what PNDMike said.
I disagree in a few ways
I agree that all in all, no one can teach you how to be experienced, how to be precise, or how to be efficient.
I however, feel you CAN teach someone to look for these things, and after that, give advice on certain ways they can exploit their opponent.
You CAN teach a rookie how to see the environment, how to look for opportunity.
You CAN teach a New player how to see like an experienced player.
However, I agree with you that you can't teach him how to PLAY like an experienced player.
It has also just dawned upon me that because we put so much detailed thought into a simple game, it becomes a complex one.
@kataefi: Also yes you can commend everyone,
and I thank you for your input in our discussions as well as your compliments.
Frame data can be studied, taught, and learned through a forum, and it will effect the game and playstyle. This is less important than the above in gameplay, but more important on a forum. Thus, I would say we do not have "enough" of that stuff, in fact, I welcome more of it.
And that's what PNDMike said.
I disagree in a few ways
I agree that all in all, no one can teach you how to be experienced, how to be precise, or how to be efficient.
I however, feel you CAN teach someone to look for these things, and after that, give advice on certain ways they can exploit their opponent.
You CAN teach a rookie how to see the environment, how to look for opportunity.
You CAN teach a New player how to see like an experienced player.
However, I agree with you that you can't teach him how to PLAY like an experienced player.
It has also just dawned upon me that because we put so much detailed thought into a simple game, it becomes a complex one.
@kataefi: Also yes you can commend everyone,
and I thank you for your input in our discussions as well as your compliments.
Veril
Frame Savant
Thank you. We've all worked very hard here making this a respectable and productive board. I'm glad you're optimistic. I am as well.
@Rhed: You could write a 1000 pages on playstyle and still not cover everything. Each player, every matchup holds something new. Its never as simple as simply acting or reacting. There's a constant interplay between action, reaction and the players attempting to control this. The whole idea of mindgames, a stupid term IMO, revolves around this. You really can't teach this. The tactical boards have a million threads on playing to win, mindgames, playing smart, etc.
That's all crap. Ats, frame data, concrete changes to our metagame are what the forum is for (and the lols...). We give Jigglypuff new tools. At least I try to. The intricacies of playstyles is beyond the scope of what I am doing here, and I'm pretty f****** ambitious in my aims.
You try and I commend that, but your efforts are misplaced.
PND
Smash Champion
All the good players are slowly trickling to the puff. It's almost intimidating.
And Rhed, we're going to have to agree to disagree. There are many things in Brawl that simply can't be taught, and I feel the priority for the forums at least should be a focus on the things that can be.
And Rhed, we're going to have to agree to disagree. There are many things in Brawl that simply can't be taught, and I feel the priority for the forums at least should be a focus on the things that can be.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Our work has been really great here so far because after almost everyone refused her we are getting a steady trickle to pick her up.
PND
Smash Champion
Honestly, it's stuff like this that makes me feel that all the work we've done is worth it.
Veril
Frame Savant
Essentially that's it. I go to the boards and think, lol G tier. I'm gonna help change that.
That's kinda what everyone wants to do, I could probably do that better if I didn't pick the lamest moves to work on...
@everyone: I wasn't trying to teach people how to be good players, I'm trying to teach them how to learn how to learn. And no that wasn't an accidental double type. If you learn how to learn, you can be more fluid, adapt to other playstyles. You're all right when you say there's basically an infinite amount of playstyles, different for almost each person, I wasn't trying to be a dictionary with a definition of every possible one, instead, I set down guideline mentalities as examples.
Though clearly this sort of work is not deemed necessary.
I guess I''ll go back into finding cool things about useless moves then, I always like to play the underdog, which is part of the reason I main jigglypuff.
*flips through notebook* ok, that means up next to talk about is jabs, I guess I'll start up on that again, I'll probably make the thread in the next day or two then.
Veril
Frame Savant
Fixed, also, I cleverly slipped in a suggestion. Jab > crouch cancel > whatever. I have no idea is its useful for Jiggs. Would be cool if it made jab > grab faster...Though clearly this sort of work is not deemed possible.
I guess I''ll go back into finding cool things about useless moves then, I always like to play the underdog, which is part of the reason I main jigglypuff.
*flips through notebook* ok, that means up next to talk about is jabs, I guess I'll start up on jab-canceling.
GOGOGO! plz
illinialex24
Smash Hero
It might. I know the normal jab has a 16 frame duration if doesn't hit, while the continuous first jab (hold A) has only an 11 frame duration. I am not sure how long her crouch is but I think it is in the neighborhood of 3 frames, meaning it could give us a 2 frame advantage.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Jab grab?
Jab canceling with Jiggs seems kind of...meh. Any ideas?
Jab canceling with Jiggs seems kind of...meh. Any ideas?
PND
Smash Champion
Her jab seems to slow to really have practical applications. . . although I can't wait to see what comes up. I'd do some testing, but my Brawl brokez itself.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Jab Sing?
Might **** spot dodges and shields. (lol Sing)
Might **** spot dodges and shields. (lol Sing)
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Sing has absolutely no shield pressure. None whatsoever. They can unshield immediately and any attack that hits in under 29 frames can be used.
This means you can F-smash with Ike right OoS and still have it hit if its perfectly done. Of course you will fall asleep but thats a good tradeoff.
Timothy2035
Smash Journeyman
An introduction of myself to all the Jigglies here!
Just saying "hi" and I am new to Jigglypuff.
I have been working with Jiggly a little bit and I am going to keep working and perhaps take her out to Wi-Fi more and see how I do.
I will check out the threads here and try to be in good accord with the forum.
I do main Pokemon Trainer as my first love. Though my history with Pokemon Trainer was a bit rocky, but I stuck with it and I now am glad I did. I still have a good ways to go with PT, but I look forward to great times with the character.
I believe that Jiggly would be a good fit for me, and I just need to work on timing some things together. Which I am sure I can be a notable puff player. There are some odd timings to work on, but I will be happily practicing.
Just saying "hi" and I am new to Jigglypuff.
I have been working with Jiggly a little bit and I am going to keep working and perhaps take her out to Wi-Fi more and see how I do.
I will check out the threads here and try to be in good accord with the forum.
I do main Pokemon Trainer as my first love. Though my history with Pokemon Trainer was a bit rocky, but I stuck with it and I now am glad I did. I still have a good ways to go with PT, but I look forward to great times with the character.
I believe that Jiggly would be a good fit for me, and I just need to work on timing some things together. Which I am sure I can be a notable puff player. There are some odd timings to work on, but I will be happily practicing.
Veril
Frame Savant
good man. Props for maining PT.
Timothy2035
Smash Journeyman
Thanks, and adding Jiggly as a second main is sure to be good too.
I play Lucario sometimes, but I think I will have more fun with Jiggly. I was a fan of Jiggly from the anime series in the original days. LOL!
Noobicidal
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2008
- Messages
- 3,551
Now THAT is how sing is supposed to work.
Veril
Frame Savant
Yes, if you like squirtle best you will most likely enjoy Jigglypuff's playstyle. She doesn't have much of a ground game, given squirtles sick down throw, jab, and shell-shifting, but she has the second best recovery in the game... there's a lot to be said for that.Thanks, and adding Jiggly as a second main is sure to be good too.
Maniclysane
Smash Lord
Arguable. Definitely top 5, but second is a little much.
Veril
Frame Savant
I would argue, but as this isn't the tactical boards I don't have to.
...
I hate that place.
Timothy2035
Smash Journeyman
Yeah I love Squirtle, but as a PT player, I have to love all of my pokes and I do.
I believe I would love Jiggly too. LOL! I would figure that Jiggly is in the top 3. The tops being ROB, Jiggly and Meta Knight. Oh well, Pit I think beats them all with the 3 jumps plus the angelic flight which can add to it, not to mention that he can "glide fly". So to me, from my brawls of seeing characters recover, it should be
Pit
ROB
Meta Knight
Jiggly Puff
Jiggly would be neck in neck with Meta if Jiggly just "floated" but MK has a glide fly in addition to the jumps.
Airgemini
Chansey
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2007
- Messages
- 9,410
- 3DS FC
- 2406-5625-4787
Metaknight definately has the best recovery. He has two glides, multiple jumps, and all his B moves help him recover, also his recovery is pretty much ungimpable. Pit should be second because of how gimpable his Up B is. Then a tie between Jigglypuff and ROB.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Pit's recovery is good on paper, but then you realize how screwed you are if you get hit.
MrEh
Smash Hero
I once pulled off the greatest gimp on a Pit in friendlies. I thought Pit would try to fly under the stage, so I jumped off of Final Destination with Bowser and did a reverse Fire Breath.
The Fire hit Pit, and he fell to his death. I did as well, but at least he died before I did. It was hilarious. ^^
Also, Jiggs vs Pit on Yoshi's Island is so funny. Pit's dead if he has to use his upB.
The Fire hit Pit, and he fell to his death. I did as well, but at least he died before I did. It was hilarious. ^^
Also, Jiggs vs Pit on Yoshi's Island is so funny. Pit's dead if he has to use his upB.
Sounds pretty embarassing, MrEh, good job. ^^
Now when fighting a good Bowser, I actually Fludded his down-b offstage, which was also hilarious.
I've been trying to do this against a Pit, but never pulled it off. I wanted to one jab when he goes for the ledge. I'd quit smash if I fell for something like that.
Now when fighting a good Bowser, I actually Fludded his down-b offstage, which was also hilarious.
I've been trying to do this against a Pit, but never pulled it off. I wanted to one jab when he goes for the ledge. I'd quit smash if I fell for something like that.
GeneralWoodman
Smash Lord
dont quote me on this, but i once used sing next to the ledge and the pit i was playing's recovery just stopped working, needs testing could have been a coincidence, he fell to his death b4 touching the ledge
Maniclysane
Smash Lord
He was probably in the air too long, and his upb ran out of juice.
MrEh
Smash Hero
If Sing actually works on Pit when he's using his upB, then that would be one of the greatest uses for Sing ever found.