Smash 3DS Update 1.0.4 Released!

[Hitman JT]

Based on some Wii U demo sightings, it appears that more than just the Luma's respawn time has been affected. Apparently, the Luma is no longer able to rescue Rosalina if she's grabbed. It's hard to say if this also applies to if Rosalina is dizzy or asleep though.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ Hitman JT : The nerf seems redundant though, as even before the patch announcement, the Luma isn't completely capable of stopping grab games. I can understand extending the amount of time it takes for a new Luma to appear, but going so far as to remove the Luma's ability to attack while Rosalina is grabbed, dizzy, or asleep seems very excessive, and it also contradicts one of Smash 3DS's tips, along with Palutena's Guidance for Rosalina.

 

[MitoRequiem]

Are people literally just looking for Rosalina only stuff? Holy moly GUYS GUYS GUYS WHAT HAPPENED TO MARTH GET ON THAT!!!! (pls... I beg of you or literally any other character that isn't Rosalina tired of seeing people complain about her)

 

[Rew]

Are people literally just looking for Rosalina only stuff? Holy moly GUYS GUYS GUYS WHAT HAPPENED TO MARTH GET ON THAT!!!! (pls... I beg of you or literally any other character that isn't Rosalina tired of seeing people complain about her)

In fairness, I tried to change the subject away from Rosalina to Bowser... but that didn't last long.

 

[Hitman JT]

@ Hitman JT : The nerf seems redundant though, as even before the patch announcement, the Luma isn't completely capable of stopping grab games. I can understand extending the amount of time it takes for a new Luma to appear, but going so far as to remove the Luma's ability to attack while Rosalina is grabbed, dizzy, or asleep seems very excessive, and it also contradicts one of Smash 3DS's tips, along with Palutena's Guidance for Rosalina.

Luma's ability to attack while Rosie's grabbed/in hitstun contradicts fighting game fundamentals in general. You leave yourself open, you get punished. She's still strong enough without that unnecessary advantage.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

In fairness, I tried to change the subject away from Rosalina to Bowser... but that didn't last long.

Her changes are more drastic than what the other characters are suffering from right now, so that's completely understandable. Bowser's situation is only bad if he and his adversary both have only one life left; if Bowser has the life advantage, he can still use Flying Slam to commit suicide and win.

 

[ChikoLad]

Luma's ability to attack while Rosie's grabbed/in hitstun contradicts fighting game fundamentals in general. You leave yourself open, you get punished. She's still strong enough without that unnecessary advantage.

Except Rosalina is far from the only character who has this advantage (or has had in past games).

 

[Hitman JT]

Except Rosalina is far from the only character who has this advantage (or has had in past games).

Yeah, Ice Climbers could do it too. But, you know, at LEAST they had some glaring and very crippling weaknesses to kind of not really balance it out. Like, the fact that Nana didn't respawn, and how Popo by himself was one of the weakest characters in both games. Luma respawns every 8/13 seconds, and Rosie is quite far from being a weak character even on her own. Not saying at all that it was OK at all for the ICs to have it, no. Puppet characters are always going to be a problem when it comes to balance. But yeah, Rosie's still good, she doesn't need it. If Rosie players have such a problem with it, they could just, y'know, not let themselves get grabbed.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Are people literally just looking for Rosalina only stuff? Holy moly GUYS GUYS GUYS WHAT HAPPENED TO MARTH GET ON THAT!!!! (pls... I beg of you or literally any other character that isn't Rosalina tired of seeing people complain about her)

I'd like to see this too. Did Marth get buffed? I also main maaaaaaaaaaaaaaarth

 

[ChikoLad]

Yeah, Ice Climbers could do it too. But, you know, at LEAST they had some glaring and very crippling weaknesses to kind of not really balance it out. Like, the fact that Nana didn't respawn, and how Popo by himself was one of the weakest characters in both games. Luma respawns every 8/13 seconds, and Rosie is quite far from being a weak character even on her own. Not saying at all that it was OK at all for the ICs to have it, no. Puppet characters are always going to be a problem when it comes to balance. But yeah, Rosie's still good, she doesn't need it. If Rosie players have such a problem with it, they could just, y'know, not let themselves get grabbed.

I'm not just talking about Ice Climbers. Little Mac's super armour can do the same, and Peach can easily avoid landing lag/string aerials along the ground with her float (averting many punish opportunities you would otherwise have against her).

I don't think this nerf ruins Rosie, but her ability to escape grabs using Luma is a unique feature that was hyped up pre-release, but it also has about four definite counters that everyone can pull off. It's even mentioned in the 3DS version's Tips right now.

I find the notion that this is "too much power" for her is hypocritical, in light of other characters having similar things, Mac especially, since he can do some obnoxious things with his over powered super armour (that he doesn't exactly need because his roll is amazing, and he has Jolt Haymaker and Slip Counter).

And while it's not as major a thing, the Palutena's Guidance for Rosalina & Luma now has a huge contradiction after this patch.

And in general, nobody needed to have their basic perks removed from them this early in the game's lifespan.

 

[MitoRequiem]

I'd like to see this too. Did Marth get buffed? I also main maaaaaaaaaaaaaaarth

We'll never know cause the Rosalina convo will never end :>

 

[ChikoLad]

We'll never know cause the Rosalina convo will never end :>

We'll find out if anybody else has any changes when the patch/Wii U version comes out, but if nobody has mentioned Marth changes yet, there probably isn't anything major, if anything at all.

Rosalina is just the only one with actually 100% confirmed changes, because they stick out like a sore thumb and you don't have to main her to see them.

 

[Hitman JT]

Super armor doesn't outright let Mac escape from an unsafe situation though. The Peach thing doesn't really apply either; that's often referred to as "spacing," part of the fighting game fundamentals that I love to talk about so much. If she was able to float directly out of a combo and kick you in the face then that would be a different story, one comparable to Rosalina's.

 

[MitoRequiem]

We'll find out if anybody else has any changes when the patch/Wii U version comes out, but if nobody has mentioned Marth changes yet, there probably isn't anything major, if anything at all.

Rosalina is just the only one with actually 100% confirmed changes, because they stick out like a sore thumb and you don't have to main her to see them.

Haha, Yeah I know I'm just kinda salty that seems to be the only thing people are looking for~ Also to comment on your other post

"And in general, nobody needed to have their basic perks removed from them this early in the game's lifespan." can't say how much I strongly agree with this lol.

 

[ChikoLad]

Super armor doesn't outright let Mac escape from an unsafe situation though. The Peach thing doesn't really apply either; that's often referred to as "spacing," part of the fighting game fundamentals that I love to talk about so much. If she was able to float directly out of a combo and kick you in the face then that would be a different story, one comparable to Rosalina's.

Little Mac's super armour makes a ton of unsafe situations safe for him and unsafe for his opponent. It's completely more absurd than what Rosalina can do. Luma won't kill you by breaking Rosalina free, but Mac can absolutely barrel through your attacks with his Smash attacks, which will destroy you (and he gets a hefty top up to his power meter to boot). Even if your attack is really slow and strong.

And I'm not talking about Peach's spacing. I'm talking about her ability to avert landing lag from her aerials using float.

 

[Hitman JT]

Here's the thing though...Mac cannot use super armor when he is wide open. Like, say, after air-dodging into the ground. He can be grabbed and PUNISHED. That's the current topic at hand here. Now, Rosalina air-dodges into the ground and is also wide open. Now she can be grabbed and PUNI....oh wait, the Luma is going to hit me and punish me.

.....punish ME? Because Rosalina made a mistake? !@*#)#)&!)(#&$

Point is that super armor is a thing in many fighting games, not just Smash. It can be annoying to deal with, but it is PUNISHABLE. It may force you to approach the opponent differently, but in no respectable fighting game are you able to super armor your way out of your opponent's grab or combo and punish them for capitalizing on your own screw-up.

 

[ChikoLad]

Here's the thing though...Mac cannot use super armor when he is wide open. Like, say, after air-dodging into the ground. He can be grabbed and PUNISHED. That's the current topic at hand here. Now, Rosalina air-dodges into the ground and is also wide open. Now she can be grabbed and PUNI....oh wait, the Luma is going to hit me and punish me.

.....punish ME? Because Rosalina made a mistake? !@*#)#)&!)(#&$

Point is that super armor is a thing in many fighting games, not just Smash. It can be annoying to deal with, but it is PUNISHABLE. It may force you to approach the opponent differently, but in no respectable fighting game are you able to super armor your way out of your opponent's grab or combo and punish them for capitalizing on your own screw-up.

Rosalina is plenty punishable. There are four well known counters to Luma while she is grabbed. If you don't know them and don't use them, that's your fault as a player. Not Rosalina's.

 

[Aguki90]

Olimar A.I. please need to be FIX!!!

Ganon don't need a buff because that guy, is can be anoying.
Rosalina Upsmash and UPair are really WTF??
I dont know the range of that thing, sometime, She hit me in thin air or even reach or hit me or whatever how the hell she even hit me with no reach at all. Seriusly the range is killing me than her power. Dat freaking hitbox.
Little Mac have Smash attack with super armor and sometime is impossible to stop it. That all the issue I got with mac, even he have those overpower punch.

That all. In reality, nerf Rosalina Up smash and REALLY FREAKING FIX OLIMAR PIKMIN A.I.!!!

 

[Hitman JT]

The point here isn't talking about what counters Luma to avoid being counter-punished; it's the fact that she can even counter-punish in the first place, something that no other character has, something that conveniently allows her to ignore one of the most basic rules of fighting games: keeping yourself safe.

 

[ChikoLad]

The point here isn't talking about what counters Luma to avoid being counter-punished; it's the fact that she can even counter-punish in the first place, something that no other character has, something that conveniently allows her to ignore one of the most basic rules of fighting games: keeping yourself safe.

Doesn't allow her to ignore the rule, just gives her a unique tool for doing it effectively. Which plenty of other characters have their own things for.

 

[Hitman JT]

No other character is able to hit you back while they're grabbed...

*sigh* you know what? Obviously this is going nowhere, let's talk about the Bowsercide nerf or something. Meanwhile, I need alcohol.

 

[ChikoLad]

No other character is able to hit you back while they're grabbed...

*sigh* you know what? Obviously this is going nowhere, let's talk about the Bowsercide nerf or something. Meanwhile, I need alcohol.

So? No other character can move around like Sonic. No other character can shrug off even the most powerful attacks like Little Mac. No other character can do what Peach can do with her float. The list goes on.

There is nothing wrong with character specific strengths. It's called a diverse roster for a reason.

 

[DarkKiru]

Olimar A.I. please need to be FIX!!!
Ganon don't need a buff because that guy, is can be anoying.

I've heard multiple people say Pikmin AI was fixed in the Wii U version, so it probably has been. Whats this about Ganondorf now? last I heard he was fine.

No other character is able to hit you back while they're grabbed...

*sigh* you know what? Obviously this is going nowhere, let's talk about the Bowsercide nerf or something. Meanwhile, I need alcohol.

Not sure how I feel about it, Im not sure if its Sakurai actually listening to any community outcry, or just fine tuning before the Wii U launch*, I don't mind it though as long as they do it for all suicide moves (it'll be a shame to lose Ganoncide, but its only fair; and hey, its only on last stock anyway so meh)


*(do bear in mind, the patch would've had to have been done for the Wii U version by like, mid to late october since thats when review copies were shipped out; I doubt he'd have gotten all that community feedback, planned changes, and then implemented them all that quickly, might just be the balance team themselves deciding to change things; feeling that the balance could use more work, we may never know though)

 

[Hitman JT]

So? No other character can move around like Sonic. No other character can shrug off even the most powerful attacks like Little Mac. No other character can do what Peach can do with her float. The list goes on.

There is nothing wrong with character specific strengths. It's called a diverse roster for a reason.

Hey.
You.
I get it. You reeeaallllyyy love your character. But goddamn, it's like trying to have a logical conversation with a brick wall.
There's a difference between having character-specific strengths...
...and breaking the rules.
RULES OF NATURE *BOOM* AND THEY RUN WHEN THE SUN COMES UUUPPP, WITH THEIR LIVES ON THE LIIIIIIINE
Rules that state that you should be punished if you make a mistake, not the other way around. This is Rosa's biggest design flaw. Forget the amazing hitboxes on her everything, forget the Luma infinites, forget the lack of ICs-level weaknesses when she's alone. She can stay top tier for all I care. Just....force her to learn the same game that everyone else plays. Make her pay for leaving herself open and getting grabbed/comboed, just like everyone else.

 

[ChikoLad]

Hey.
You.
I get it. You reeeaallllyyy love your character. But goddamn, it's like trying to have a logical conversation with a brick wall.
There's a difference between having character-specific strengths...
...and breaking the rules.
RULES OF NATURE *BOOM* AND THEY RUN WHEN THE SUN COMES UUUPPP, WITH THEIR LIVES ON THE LIIIIIIINE
Rules that state that you should be punished if you make a mistake, not the other way around. This is Rosa's biggest design flaw. Forget the amazing hitboxes on her everything, forget the Luma infinites, forget the lack of ICs-level weaknesses when she's alone. She can stay top tier for all I care. Just....force her to learn the same game that everyone else plays. Make her pay for leaving herself open and getting grabbed/comboed, just like everyone else.

She's not breaking rules.

Quit damage controlling and side stepping the things I am actually saying. Rosalina's strengths are not broken. They have well known counters. If you are not learning and adapting to what Rosalina can do, the fault is your own and nobody else's.

 

[S_B]

Oh my, balance patches are real?

I can't remember where, but I told EVERYONE they would be.

 

[ArikadoSD]

List of **** I've (we've, Nova Scotia players) confirmed is not in the Wii U version (which presumably is already on 1.04):

Wario blast-off is out.
Item canceling is out.
Peach's aerials now stale.
Turnip Canceling is out.
Greninja side-B aerial lag cancel is out.
Robin Thunder Triple jump is out.

Rush canceling is still IN.

Pretty much all of the changes we've found save for the Luma thing have been glitch fixes, not actual buffs/nerfs.

What's the Robin Thunder Triple jump?

 

[MitoRequiem]

What's the Robin Thunder Triple jump?

Didn't notice that was out, That sucks.

Basically if you charge from Arc Thunder into Thoron Robin will get another jump. So Jump > Jump > Charge Arcthunder > Thoron charge(Don't need to use it) Get another Jump.

 

[KarleKat]

She's not breaking rules.

Quit damage controlling and side stepping the things I am actually saying. Rosalina's strengths are not broken. They have well known counters. If you are not learning and adapting to what Rosalina can do, the fault is your own and nobody else's.

Personally, I believe there is a reason she's being nerfed a bit, because obviously there was (and perhaps may still be) a balancing issue (as with all Smash games, but now it seems Sakurai is taking greater interest in this).

Yes, she is your main and favorite character, and that's completely understandable to be a bit defensive, but just remember Meta Knight from Brawl. That wasn't just a matter of "learn 2 character lolz", he was legitimately broken, and people acknowledged it. I believe Rosalina had/has some issues that are beyond individual player skill, as no matter where I go, I find the same discussion.

So while I'm not saying Rosalina is broken per se, I'm just saying there's a reason for so many people to talk about it. I appreciate that Sakurai is trying to make this game more balanced, and if my favorite fighter got nerfed for something, I'd figure there's a reason for it.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

*drinks tears of Rosalina mains*

I wanna know if Captain Falcon, Kirby, Mario, or Ness got any changes. Those are the character I use the most in this game.

 

[Hitman JT]

She's not breaking rules.

Quit damage controlling and side stepping the things I am actually saying. Rosalina's strengths are not broken. They have well known counters. If you are not learning and adapting to what Rosalina can do, the fault is your own and nobody else's.

Ok.

By your logic, it's perfectly fine for my coach to step into the ring while I'm in the middle of a boxing match with Floyd Mayweather. And it's totally cool for my coach to beat Mayweather senseless with a goddamn steel chair. Never mind the fact that I don't know jack **** about boxing, I'm throwing wild haymakers everywhere, and I probably do deserve a facial readjustment and a permanent lisp for my idiocy. Oh, that's unfair? Well, I make my own rules so deal with it. If Mayweather loses, it's because he needs to git gud.

 

[Untouch]

I'm sorry but how is "Grabbing me results in more damage to you than me" fair?

Most characters cannot adapt because rosalina does everything well. Grabbing should allow spacing easier, because rosalina has a way to shut down projectiles, but no, in the current state you can't even do that.

Diddy is one of the few characters that can deal with rosalina, and that's only because of chain grabs mixed with his speed.

 

[MitoRequiem]

Ok.

By your logic, it's perfectly fine for my coach to step into the ring while I'm in the middle of a boxing match with Floyd Mayweather. And it's totally cool for my coach to beat Mayweather senseless with a goddamn steel chair. Never mind the fact that I don't know jack **** about boxing, I'm throwing wild haymakers everywhere, and I probably do deserve a facial readjustment and a permanent lisp for my idiocy. Oh, that's unfair? Well, I make my own rules so deal with it. If Mayweather loses, it's because he needs to git gud.

This is the silliest thing I have read lol, Reading up earlier I saw you said something like Rosalina is breaking rules of fighting games blahblahblah aofhaoufhuaofaf.

Where are these rules? Cause I guess Marvel, SFxT or any game where you can call in a homie for help when you're getting bodied is breaking the "rules of fighting games" lol You're comparing a real life scenario to a video game too. Just seems like a bunch of mad and not making much sense that's why I hate when people discuss Rosalina it's just a bunch of mad

 

[Ampetrix]

This is the silliest thing I have read lol, Reading up earlier I saw you said something like Rosalina is breaking rules of fighting games blahblahblah aofhaoufhuaofaf.

Where are these rules? Cause I guess Marvel, SFxT or any game where you can call in a homie for help when you're getting bodied is breaking the "rules of fighting games" lol You're comparing a real life scenario to a video game too. Just seems like a bunch of mad and not making much sense that's why I hate when people discuss Rosalina it's just a bunch of mad

I believe he's just saying that Rosalina breaks a fundamental part of fighting games: the RPS trinity of grab,attack, and shield. Since Rosalina can counterpunish when grabbed, she breaks that part thus she can counter everything.Think of it like, someone attempts to grab, it has lag in it that can easily be punished by an attack, or another grab. Grabbing when an opponent's on a shield yields a huge reward, since it can lead to combos, but it doesn't work against a RosaLuma, basically some character's damage racking ability's gone. Unlike Mac's super armor and Peach's lagless aerials... things, which are not that gamebreaking. Even after throwing Rosalina, Luma can still strike.

Also if you're keeping Luma out, there's Rosalina to take care of. She can just basically shield with Luma with absolute safety due to no projectiles harming her through Luma or GP or letting Luma take a hit and punish with a grab.

Well, we can go to a compromise where in Luma "pummels" the opponent instead of knocking them back, since that's where the root of the problem is.

Her character design's uniqueness is just assigned to the wrong place to be honest.

 

[Big O]

Honestly, at this point people need to just accept that nerfs will happen and move on. You might feel very strongly that it is a bad nerf, a great nerf, a justified nerf, an unwarranted nerf, etc. Does there really need to be such a big fuss about it though?

When you get down to it, Nintendo realized a lot of people didn't like that particular gimmick and took care of it. The drama and rhetoric going on in here is just silly lol.

If anyone is really that bothered by the patch, all you can do is either stay on the current patch or move on. Be practical.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

This is the silliest thing I have read lol, Reading up earlier I saw you said something like Rosalina is breaking rules of fighting games blahblahblah aofhaoufhuaofaf.

Where are these rules? Cause I guess Marvel, SFxT or any game where you can call in a homie for help when you're getting bodied is breaking the "rules of fighting games" lol You're comparing a real life scenario to a video game too. Just seems like a bunch of mad and not making much sense that's why I hate when people discuss Rosalina it's just a bunch of mad

#WellActually you can't call assists in Marvel when you're getting hit, and no one plays SFxT anymore lol quit playin

 

[Road Death Wheel]

in fighting games there is the triangle paradigm

attacking
shield/blocking
grabing.

shield beats attacking
grabbing beats shield
attacking beats grabbing (lol with correct spacing of course.)

now its okay when a character accels at defending against one of these.
aka
sheild= attack safely or grab
grab= dodge roll or spaced attack
attack= counter attack/dodge roll/shield

attacking is the one option players have to think about the most since it can be countered the easily.
grabing can be risky but generally rewarding.
shielding is the strongest option that can really only be trully trumped by grabing.

gererally building a character that can avoid 1 of these options is a well made character. but they need to be equally weakend by another.

now lets look at rosalina who primarily relies on shielding/rolling
what the weakness of shielding? grabbing. now lets grab her. gets hit by luma. hmm thats weird she covers one of her most explotable weakness.
than her shield must be super weak. hmm its not weak. Than she has to be the easyest to kill. luma eats attack.
no clear weakness one can exploit.
majorly because we can't grab her safely.
you can't even successfully attack her safely since luma can counter attack.
shes not forced to apporach cuz of luma.
she has range, defense, attacking safely, and her one true could be exploitable weakness is grabbing but she can get out of even that.


im sorry but giving a character a universal weakness that every character can capitalize on is good design.
but since she can't be grabbed safely she is one borked character.
great idea, terrible execution.
she needs fixing.

 

[MitoRequiem]

#WellActually you can't call assists in Marvel when you're getting hit, and no one plays SFxT anymore lol quit playin

You probably only read like half of what I typed, but anyways my point was you can stop **** like grabs and what not due to assists(Obviously when you're not taking damage) and just because no one plays SFxT currently doesn't make it irrelevant lol, there are other things can stop **** too like Bombs and what not(Look at Shuma at EVO2013 lol), Mega Man also has this too.

Does it break the rules of fighting rules? No cause that **** doesn't exist.

EDIT: Not even arguing about Rosalina at this point back the fact that. "The rules of fighting games" "x character is breaking the rules" was brought up triggers me, Especially when at the end of the day this is categorized as a "party fighting game" with items lmao.

 

[Ampetrix]

You probably only read like half of what I typed, but anyways my point was you can stop **** like grabs and what not due to assists(Obviously when you're not taking damage) and just because no one plays SFxT currently doesn't make it irrelevant lol, there are other things can stop **** too like Bombs and what not(Look at Shuma at EVO2013 lol), Mega Man also has this too.

Does it break the rules of fighting rules? No cause that **** doesn't exist.

Okay, back to smash stuff..
What is "it" in there? I agree that there may be no fighting rules, but there are basic game designs that are used as guidelines, that is stated in my post and @ Road Death Wheel 's post, which is the Attack-Grab-Shield one.

 

[Hitman JT]

You probably only read like half of what I typed, but anyways my point was you can stop **** like grabs and what not due to assists(Obviously when you're not taking damage) and just because no one plays SFxT currently doesn't make it irrelevant lol, there are other things can stop **** too like Bombs and what not(Look at Shuma at EVO2013 lol), Mega Man also has this too.

Does it break the rules of fighting rules? No cause that **** doesn't exist.

EDIT: Not even arguing about Rosalina at this point back the fact that. "The rules of fighting games" "x character is breaking the rules" was brought up triggers me, Especially when at the end of the day this is categorized as a "party fighting game" with items lmao.

The VERY OBVIOUSLY INCREDIBLY MASSIVELY HUGE DIFFERENCE between assists in Marvel and the Luma is that every character has access to assists in Marvel while only Rosie has one in Smash. Your argument is that a universal mechanic = a character-specific mechanic...yeah, it doesn't work. When everyone can call hidden missiles and break free then whatever...when only one character can do it then we have balance issues, bad game design, etc. And the "rules" have already been explained.