Smash 3DS Update 1.0.4 Released!

[Toxicroaker]

I only need a few things from this patch: better pikmin ai, the removal of rush canceling, and buff falco. Also, please keep item canceling in. It's not op at all.

 

[the8thark]

Nintendo could be doing the Blizzard way of balancing characters.

Blizzard balance characters based on how overused or underused a character or ability/move is and not on how OP/UP people think a character or move is. This is done to see more variety in online play. having 8/10 matches being Rosalinda or Mac would not be fun at all.

 

[Terotrous]

I only need a few things from this patch: better pikmin ai, the removal of rush canceling, and buff falco. Also, please keep item canceling in. It's not op at all.

It's certainly much more powerful than Rush Cancelling. It basically turns Toon Link into a solid wall that some characters almost cannot approach. I'm mostly fine with current Toon Link, but I would not be shocked to see it removed either.

Note that even if it was removed, you could still continue to do the trick with Zair, since Zair is lagless. You can always perform a grounded special on your landing frame if you land laglessly (or after your IASA frame, should it occur before the autocancel window)

 

[Reila]

Nintendo could be doing the Blizzard way of balancing characters.

Blizzard balance characters based on how overused or underused a character or ability/move is and not on how OP/UP people think a character or move is. This is done to see more variety in online play. having 8/10 matches being Rosalinda or Mac would not be fun at all.

Doesn't Valve balance Dota 2 in a similar way? I think they do (and I kind of like this method of balancing games).

 

[the8thark]

Doesn't Valve balance Dota 2 in a similar way? I think they do (and I kind of like this method of balancing games).

I believe they do also.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Nintendo could be doing the Blizzard way of balancing characters.

Blizzard balance characters based on how overused or underused a character or ability/move is and not on how OP/UP people think a character or move is. This is done to see more variety in online play. having 8/10 matches being Rosalinda or Mac would not be fun at all.

Don't you mean Valve?
And that would be awful.
It works in mobas for example because they need a much lower skill level regarding reaction times and input.
They are all about teamwork, knowledge and recourse management.

 

[the8thark]

Don't you mean Valve?

No. I said Blizzard and I meant Blizzard. But as the above person as reminded us all of, Valve does the same thing too.

 

[Reila]

Don't you mean Valve?
And that would be awful.
It works in mobas for example because they need a much lower skill level regarding reaction times and input.
They are all about teamwork, knowledge and recourse management.

You have never played a MOBA, have you?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I have, and I would hate DOTA style balancing. Only buff and not really nerf? leads to a ton of problems down the road instead of hitting legitimate problems.

Even if DOTA is still fun sometimes.

 

[Terotrous]

I have, and I would hate DOTA style balancing. Only buff and not really nerf? leads to a ton of problems down the road instead of hitting legitimate problems.

Even if DOTA is still fun sometimes.

Yeah, a common argument from people who don't really play competitively is that you should never nerf, you should just buff everyone until everyone is amazing. The problem is that when you have a game where everyone does everything well and no one has any meaningful weaknesses, the cast becomes very homogenous. Marvel 3 basically has this problem. Every character can kill you with any hit, has good assists, and fairly good mixups. The only difference lies in their ability to get in and land hits and mixups, and those who are better at it are purely better than others because they've removed all of the other balancing factors from the equation. It does mean that almost the entire cast is viable, but it lacks the kind of meaningful matchup dynamics that you get out of SF4 or Smash because pretty much every character has the same general gameplan.

 

[wingedarcher7]

I like knowing for sure that this time the patch will be effecting characters. I just really hope Nintendo tells us what changed, rather than leaving it to the people to try everything out and speculate what has or hasn't changed. I remember people being convinced that some characters were faster or that moves hit harder in v1.0.3 when nothing happened.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Please nerf Greninja's up Smash.

That is all.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

It's a fine line between a move being "good" and being "broken". The art of patching is delicate. You have to find ways to nerf overpowered characters without making them bad. I certainly agree that Rosalina is too good right now, but to me, the fix is not to make her bad. She has every right to stay good overall. She just needs minor tweaks to give opponents a couple more options to take her down. Lengthening the timer on Luma spawn is a great starting point.

 

[link2702]

I knew smash4 would inevitably have balance patches, and while I was somewhat happy for em, I'm also worried about em.

after all....who is sakurai and nintendo more likely to pay attention to when making the changes...? the pro players who actually are pushing characters to their limits and have a better idea of who needs buffs/nerfs? or the noob players who still can't figure out how to deal with little mac? the same noob players who got poor ike nerfed from brawl because they couldn't dodge his slow moves.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm pretty sure Sakurai will listen to the only source he's ever used for balancing - the voices inside his head.

 

[link2702]

I'm pretty sure Sakurai will listen to the only source he's ever used for balancing - the voices inside his head.

well in that case...

we're screwed.....again.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

I don't understand why the game should only be balanced toward a competitive audience. Yes there's a sizable competitive scene for Smash Bros. but I think people forget there's also an even bigger casual community of players. Myself included to an extent. Just because someone plays the game in a tournament setting doesn't mean that those who only play with their friends shouldn't have their concerns for balance heard as well.

 

[Terotrous]

I don't understand why the game should only be balanced toward a competitive audience. Yes there's a sizable competitive scene for Smash Bros. but I think people forget there's also an even bigger casual community of players. Myself included to an extent. Just because someone plays the game in a tournament setting doesn't mean that those who only play with their friends shouldn't have their concerns for balance heard as well.

Well they did try to make Final Smashes and Items less broken this time around. I'm not sure what other balance changes are possible that don't affect both competitive and casual players.

 

[Los4Muros]

I don't understand why the game should only be balanced toward a competitive audience. Yes there's a sizable competitive scene for Smash Bros. but I think people forget there's also an even bigger casual community of players. Myself included to an extent. Just because someone plays the game in a tournament setting doesn't mean that those who only play with their friends shouldn't have their concerns for balance heard as well.

Well I honestly think that if you're a casual gamer, a balance patch sholdn't affect you as much as it affects competitive gamers. Items and final smashes can be adjusted for your fun. But the characters do need to be balanced, some simply have to many strong points, while others are almost incapable of holding up a match.

 

[Darklink401]

It seems they only plan on buffing characters, based solely off of the tweet. Which is pretty cool.

Except, kinda untrue, since Rosalina has extended respawn timer on Luma.

I feel Sheik deserves the spot at the top, I mean, in Melee she was good but outclassed by space animals, and in Brawl she was good but outclassed by MK.

Other than that, I have nothing to fear because they can't possibly nerf Villager and Marth, as they're not top-tier.

On the other hand, Sheik.........XP



I am also hoping Sakurai comes to his senses and brings back Fox's shine.

 

[KurashiDragon]

: Ok just based on the posts I've seen he seems to have been beaten to death with the amount of people who want a mindless nerf for him. After using lucario for a while and even maining him for a bit, my experience tells me, he's just a bad character in all the wrong ways. He's the worst kind of glass cannon. At high percentages, he's just cheap. Aura sphere at high percentages to stupidly broken just to name biggest problem I have with him at high percents. The biggest problem I have with him in general though is that he's freakin useless at low percents. At 0%-70% you may as well just let yourself get hit cause you most likely wont be doing anything signifficant until you get to the 80% range. I feel he's like this. If you lose a stock without killing your opponent, you're most likely gonna lose the match. He's extremely bad at low percents and very cheap at high percents. I honestly think the best solution to lucario's problems isn't a mindless nerf to his high percentage aura or even to kill the rage mechanics. The best thing you could do is balance his aura to give him for consistency's sake. Give his low damage aura a buff while giving his high percent aura a nerf. I honestly feel like his 50% aura should be his starting aura and his 130% aura should be his finishing aura.

 

[Darklink401]

: Ok just based on the posts I've seen he seems to have been beaten to death with the amount of people who want a mindless nerf for him. After using lucario for a while and even maining him for a bit, my experience tells me, he's just a bad character in all the wrong ways. He's the worst kind of glass cannon. At high percentages, he's just cheap. Aura sphere at high percentages to stupidly broken just to name biggest problem I have with him at high percents. The biggest problem I have with him in general though is that he's freakin useless at low percents. At 0%-70% you may as well just let yourself get hit cause you most likely wont be doing anything signifficant until you get to the 80% range. I feel he's like this. If you lose a stock without killing your opponent, you're most likely gonna lose the match. He's extremely bad at low percents and very cheap at high percents. I honestly think the best solution to lucario's problems isn't a mindless nerf to his high percentage aura or even to kill the rage mechanics. The best thing you could do is balance his aura to give him for consistency's sake. Give his low damage aura a buff while giving his high percent aura a nerf. I honestly feel like his 50% aura should be his starting aura and his 130% aura should be his finishing aura.

I've cancelled a fully charged aura sphere off of a 100% damage Lucario with a SH dair attack from Pikachu, while still going through it and hitting Lucario. Can't be THAT OP. Also so many characters can reflect it, and it won't break your shield.

Also he's not useless at low percents. He just sucks at killing. Unless you're marginally better than your opponent (in which case you should be able to beat your opponent regardless of damage), or marginally worse (damage wouldn't matter), most matches are trading blows, and in a fight with trading blows, if there's a fighter that gets stronger while doing so, he is definitely NOT bad.

I wouldn't say Lucario is OP, he's just unique.

 

[KurashiDragon]

I've cancelled a fully charged aura sphere off of a 100% damage Lucario with a SH dair attack from Pikachu, while still going through it and hitting Lucario. Can't be THAT OP. Also so many characters can reflect it, and it won't break your shield.

Also he's not useless at low percents. He just sucks at killing. Unless you're marginally better than your opponent (in which case you should be able to beat your opponent regardless of damage), or marginally worse (damage wouldn't matter), most matches are trading blows, and in a fight with trading blows, if there's a fighter that gets stronger while doing so, he is definitely NOT bad.

I wouldn't say Lucario is OP, he's just unique.

The very last match I played with lucario was against a Zero Suit Samus. They outplayed me in every way, shape, and form but I was just barely keeping up with them. I believe I was in the 90 - 120 range and my opponent was in the 60%. I hit them with a fully charged aura sphere from across the stage and with help from some bad VI, I won a fight I had no reason to win. It was that battle that had me put down Lucario because he can be very cheap and unfair.

At the start of a battle, yes it's not that bad to be at low percents as lucario because you're not trying to kill. However, when you lose a stock to your opponent, they have a HUGE advantage because you will not be able to ko them until you're in kill range yourself. When you KO them first, you can be at a huge advantage because your aura is high so you can inflict a huge amount of damage on them before you yourself die. These scenarios have happened to me on numerous occasions while I was playing Lucario.

He is unique and I like his Aura Mechanic but it isn't good just because it's unique. It needs to be balanced and consistent.

 

[Nysyr]

Once people get over the ZeRo fueled salt towards Lucario, they will eventually learn he has 2 parts to his game.

Once you get him in kill range you don't attempt anything other than kill moves, or guaranteed kill setups.

Could it be tuned a bit down? Sure, but you'd need to fix his absolute garbage neutral game and hitboxes. If you are gonna do something stupid like spamming lasers into a Lucario already over 90% then hit by a laggy back air near the edge of the stage, I have no sympathies.

 

[Aninymouse]

Rosalina has been confirmed nerfed as seen in this video

/watch?v=yjVF05k0El0 (can't post link since I don't have 10 posts T_T)

As you can see, Luma re-spawns after 13 seconds as opposed to 8 seconds in the previous patches.

Good eye, buddy! Yeah, seems to be exactly 13 seconds.

 

[Darklink401]

The very last match I played with lucario was against a Zero Suit Samus. They outplayed me in every way, shape, and form but I was just barely keeping up with them. I believe I was in the 90 - 120 range and my opponent was in the 60%. I hit them with a fully charged aura sphere from across the stage and with help from some bad VI, I won a fight I had no reason to win. It was that battle that had me put down Lucario because he can be very cheap and unfair.

At the start of a battle, yes it's not that bad to be at low percents as lucario because you're not trying to kill. However, when you lose a stock to your opponent, they have a HUGE advantage because you will not be able to ko them until you're in kill range yourself. When you KO them first, you can be at a huge advantage because your aura is high so you can inflict a huge amount of damage on them before you yourself die. These scenarios have happened to me on numerous occasions while I was playing Lucario.

He is unique and I like his Aura Mechanic but it isn't good just because it's unique. It needs to be balanced and consistent.

If you managed to hit your opponent that was outplaying you with an aura sphere, you either got really lucky, in which case it's not Lucario's fault, or you simply had a moment of really good timing, in which case congratulations. You win some, you lose some. And if he was able to still be on top of you despite you being over 100%, maybe it just isn't as OP as you thought?

Also, if Lucario was so cheap at high percents, you shouldn't even lose the first stock to your opponent in the first place, because you'd KO them every time when you're both at 2 lives, and you've gotten enough damage.

So its not OP.

HOWEVER, I will not deny, it IS more extreme than it was in Brawl, but I don't feel the disadvantage of losing the first stock (which is hard, considering Lucario's amazing recovery/move range/damage at high percents) and advantage of your opponent losing the first stock (mercy invincibility might just do the trick however) aren't big enough to incur a nerf.

 

[KurashiDragon]

If you managed to hit your opponent that was outplaying you with an aura sphere, you either got really lucky, in which case it's not Lucario's fault, or you simply had a moment of really good timing, in which case congratulations. You win some, you lose some. And if he was able to still be on top of you despite you being over 100%, maybe it just isn't as OP as you thought?

Also, if Lucario was so cheap at high percents, you shouldn't even lose the first stock to your opponent in the first place, because you'd KO them every time when you're both at 2 lives, and you've gotten enough damage.

So its not OP.

HOWEVER, I will not deny, it IS more extreme than it was in Brawl, but I don't feel the disadvantage of losing the first stock (which is hard, considering Lucario's amazing recovery/move range/damage at high percents) and advantage of your opponent losing the first stock (mercy invincibility might just do the trick however) aren't big enough to incur a nerf.

There's a difference between being overpowered and being cheap. I feel lucario can be op but more than anything else, he's cheap. I can get wins I shouldn't because of lucario. I don't outright kick my opponent's ass 3 ways to next sunday. I just win games that by all rights, shouldn't be won. My opponent outplayed me in almost every single way and was at a perfectly comfortable percent but one well placed aura sphere ended what clearly should've been their match. That's cheap. If lucario we're overpowered, the scenario in your second paragraph would occur more often..... which does happen sometimes. A 120 - 150% lucario could very well make that happen if played right. That can happen with every character really but with Lucario, it's especially easy to rack up alot of damage at very high percents.

The disadvantage of being the first to lose a stock is there. It doesn't matter what lucario has at high percents. When he dies first, you're at a horrible disadvantage and as I said, if played right Lucario has a very easy time racking up damage when your opponent dies first which can lead to a big disadvantage on your opponent's part if they don't kill lucario early.

This isn't enough to constitute a mindless nerf. I agree with you on that . However, it is enough to constitute balancing his aura for better consistency though.

 

[PSIBoy]

If you managed to hit your opponent that was outplaying you with an aura sphere, you either got really lucky, in which case it's not Lucario's fault, or you simply had a moment of really good timing, in which case congratulations. You win some, you lose some. And if he was able to still be on top of you despite you being over 100%, maybe it just isn't as OP as you thought?

Also, if Lucario was so cheap at high percents, you shouldn't even lose the first stock to your opponent in the first place, because you'd KO them every time when you're both at 2 lives, and you've gotten enough damage.

So its not OP.

HOWEVER, I will not deny, it IS more extreme than it was in Brawl, but I don't feel the disadvantage of losing the first stock (which is hard, considering Lucario's amazing recovery/move range/damage at high percents) and advantage of your opponent losing the first stock (mercy invincibility might just do the trick however) aren't big enough to incur a nerf.

The most effective tactic vs Lucario as of right now is to throw him off the edge and gimp him. This gets progressively harder as the match goes on, however, due to the severe range increase his up-b gets. So, it IS possible for Lucario to die first at a low percentage, which then he is left at a severe disadvantage until his aura kicks in and... Well the forecast predicts heavy dosage of Aura Spheres heading your way. For characters like Fox, Falco, Paulitena (I butchered the name, didn't I?), and Ness can reflect/absorb Aura Sphere, most ideally at long range. The problem is when you get up close. Aura Sphere can be released fairly quickly, so using a Smash Attack (which always has a good amount of ending lag) to KO leaves you wide open for Aura Sphere punish, and then you are at long range, trying to close, which makes it difficult for characters like Ganondorf or even to an extent, perhaps even Sonic and Little Mac due to the fact they don't have reflectors, so they could roll, which can get punished, jump, which an aerial attack is predictable plus with landing lag leaves you wide open for a punish, or spot dodge, which can be timed wrong. So, yeah. Aura Sphere at high percentage is overall, even with reflectors a hard character to deal with if you can't deal with him fast.

Edit: That being said, however, the only thing I feel should be nerfed about Lucario is Aura Sphere's power and/or speed, but not enough to make it impractical.

 

[Los4Muros]

I keep reading through every character's forum and so far have found quite some things Nintendo should take a look at. For example:

Pikachu: Needs a Killing move. Great moves, great recovery, everything's good, expect it takes a lot to kill the opponent.
Samus: Needs less lag on her Smash attcks. Missile cancel should be back, although fixing the smash attacks would do.
Toon Link: Badly nerfed. Bomb Lag Cancel helps a lot, so we're hoping they don't take it off. Or adapt him to the Brawl version.
Link: Needs speed and less lag on his moves. Although they should be careful to balance this, giving him too much speed and few lag with those items and those smash attacks would put him directly at the top of the tier list.

Maybe I should make a complete list.

 

[Darklink401]

@Los4Muertos - Gimpin errday with Pikachu.

@ KurashiDragon -

I'd agree with you more on the whole losing-stock thing, but if it's a close match, your opponent WILL suffer a lot of damage before taking your first stock down, especially towards your later percents. Meaning you can take advantage of mercy invincibility to rush your opponent and finish him without taking too much damage, then just hope to ride that momentum into getting the second stock off him.

It IS still a disadvantage, mind you, but I'd say that Lucario at 0% should be strong enough to KO an opponent over 100% rather easily.

Also his occasional cheapness comes from his OPness when hes at over 100%. But aside from huge aura sphere, and AMAZING recovery, it shouldn't be THAT hard to take him down. Only a foolish player would NOT be careful around a Lucario with fully charged aura sphere.

Cheap wins with that CAN happen, but hey, Lucario had to suffer through 150% damage (counting stock 1 and 2) to become powerful, so he deserves a break. It's just his thing.

They COULD make it less extreme, but I personally haven't seen anyone complain about fighting Lucarios.

Rosalina, on the other hand....

 

[tm730]

The very last match I played with lucario was against a Zero Suit Samus. They outplayed me in every way, shape, and form but I was just barely keeping up with them. I believe I was in the 90 - 120 range and my opponent was in the 60%. I hit them with a fully charged aura sphere from across the stage and with help from some bad VI, I won a fight I had no reason to win. It was that battle that had me put down Lucario because he can be very cheap and unfair.

yea thats his/her fault for dying like that

 

[MitoRequiem]

Doesn't Valve balance Dota 2 in a similar way? I think they do (and I kind of like this method of balancing games).

Hmm, I wouldn't say so because you RARELY see like Slark in competitive games(and he's kinda broken and has been for awhile lol) and hasn't really been touched much but now people are picking him so things might change, I think Valve moreso goes for competitive player opinion/most picked they leave the unpicked heroes alone unless people ***** about them(Or in some cases straight up nerf em See ya later Sniper)

 

[SS-bros14]

I'm confused, is the patch out yet or...?

 

[Kapus]

I'm confused, is the patch out yet or...?

No. People are just discussing what would be nice to see.

 

[Raziek]

List of **** I've (we've, Nova Scotia players) confirmed is not in the Wii U version (which presumably is already on 1.04):

Wario blast-off is out.
Item canceling is out.
Peach's aerials now stale.
Turnip Canceling is out.
Greninja side-B aerial lag cancel is out.
Robin Thunder Triple jump is out.

Rush canceling is still IN.

Pretty much all of the changes we've found save for the Luma thing have been glitch fixes, not actual buffs/nerfs.

 

[Slaudial]

yea thats his/her fault for dying like that

Yeah. It's also the Lucario players fault for taking all that damage.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

You have never played a MOBA, have you?

Yes I do. What makes you think otherwise?
That you need like 30 apm to be effective? Hey I'm not saying MOBA don't need skill, they just need a different kind of skill.

 

[the8thark]

Yes I do. What makes you think otherwise?
That you need like 30 apm to be effective? Hey I'm not saying MOBA don't need skill, they just need a different kind of skill.

Your above comment above was not even close to the skill and other things needed to be good at Mobas. That post of yours was totally wrong. That's why people questioned you on it.

 

[Smash_Veteran_Amtoj]

I'm pretty sure Sakurai will listen to the only source he's ever used for balancing - the voices inside his head.

Or that whole balancing team he has assembled for this game I wouldn't be too worried, since they've done a good job so far.

 

[Daxter]

Come on patch, please make Donkey Kong better to the point of actually standing a chance-!