Upcoming 1.0.4 Balance Patch in November!

[A2ZOMG]

I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong in the appropriate topic. More importantly though, I DESPISE misinformation. Especially if it's about my FAVORITE CHARACTER that I've spent years inventing tech for.

Read my sig. I want Mario to be a good character.

 

[popsofctown]

You're killing me...seriously.

I watch you get beaten by Dabuz playing Rosalina relatively poorly (which to clarify, is one of Mario's BETTER high tier matchups). He kills you with standard juggles and edgeguards which Mario has absolutely no answer to, and you want me to believe that Mario is "mad good"?

You could at least have the decency to make your case in the competitive impressions discussion.

This is really classless.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Now in nakats defense..dabuz is a rosalina main. Nakat is not a mario main. This has specific implications.

Go

 

[Tagxy]

Alright so with the massive qualification of wifi friendlies etc., I do know that anti has been bopping everyone with mario and most top players seem to think hes relatively good. Not to say anyone is right or wrong but when the boards here seem to emphatically suggest his a horrid low tier Im inclined to second guess what we know for certain.

 

[DaRedMage]

You know what I find hilarious? That the only people saying that Rosalina is fine are the Rosalina mains. Of course them of all people of the Smash 4 community will say no to Rosalina being nerfed. Think about it, you ever wonder why Rosalina mains are coming out on top on every single tournament?

 

[Conda]

For those missing the stream, Mii Brawler's (broken) custom Up B that kills at 40% is causing some waves (mostly negative ). So yeah. We miiiiiiiight need to likely revise the legality of Miis, or at least some of their customs.

I'm starting to think that maybe the miis won't ever see balance changes -- perhaps they weren't designed or intended to be competitively balanced to begin with.

The player using the Brawler (dapuffster) is also changing between different Miis between fights, with different weight/height, making things very difficult for any player going against them as their attack speed, range, movement, etc are very different. Not sure if we should revise that, or enforce 1 mii per mii fighter type to prevent players from switching between heights and such between matches. And they do change a lot, especially regarding movement speed, jump height/mobility, attack range, and attack speed.

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, so this thread still been rocking and now seems to be outer-character impressions plus NAKAT baiting for a reason I don't understand?

Everyone in NJ thinks Marth is bad and has done so most of Brawl's history as well. EL, amusement-fueled baiting needs to be toned down, Bandai/Namco/Sakurai have over tuned you.

I think ensuring we don't have the entire section dedicated to patch speculator scum would be good.
People could always make things worth putting into the academy and we could all live there in harmony.

 

[DaRedMage]

The players using the Brawler (guess who) is also changing between different Miis between fights, with different weight/height, making things very difficult for any player going against them as their attack speed, range, movement, etc are very different.[/quote]


How about only one Mii and no switching, and they all have to be middle-weights?

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I was with you til you mentioned L-Canceling.

I agree it rewards you for dedication but in application, when are ever going to ask, "When do I want to not L-cancel?" The answer is always never, so the tech inherently has no choice and therefore no place in a game. Nothing changes if you just cut lag in half, absolutely nothing in terms of gameplay or decision making.

There is no depth to it. I agree games needs execution in a fighting genre not if adding it adds nothing of value in return for depth or complexity. You never are going to say no to using it, ever.

I also strongly disagree Brawl and Smash 4 don't reward you for learning this, they don't as much as Melee but still I do stand by both of these games still rewarding you for learning how to play with the game and your character a lot. In many respects in ways people don't do in traditional fighting game due to the nature of it being a platform fighter and in ways not even Melee does.

Yeah no I was talking about the technical aspect (in theory) of L canceling. I agree its a horrible mechanic because L canceling is always ideal and not L canceling is never the correct choice to make. I also think L canceling is also difficult to do technically. But the idea of L canceling as something you learn over time and causes a visible/measurable improvement in your gameplay was something quite nice.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on Brawl and Smash 4 though. While yes there is some reward to learning the game and your character, my argument is that there is not enough reward. If you think that there is enough then this just falls into a personal opinion difference I believe. Unless you want to start quantifying how much is enough (which I'd argue a large factor is longevity which I think we can all agree Brawl didn't do so well).

But this is exactly why execution barriers are toxic; they only reward dedication and improvement at a shallow, binary level!

Yes and no. I briefly touch on why SOME execution barriers are healthy and good for fighting games. Too many (or too high) of execution barriers I believe are detrimental in many ways, but having absolutely no execution barrier is also quite detrimental. I can go into detail later if you'd like (and if I have the time lol).

Ralph Koster gives an amazing talk "Games are Math", in which he applies complexity class to gameplay.

Something like Palutena's Lightweight glitch is O(1), strictly binary. You read about it on smashboards, and then you can do it. That is the end of the improvement added to the game by this secret barrier.

I understand in context but I disagree with the example chosen. I feel like utlizing this new tech well and integrating it into actual gameplay is a skill that isn't binary. I actually have trouble thinking of an example in Smash that is strictly binary because of the nature of Smash Brothers as a game.

When you have to sit down and master l-canceling or roll-cancelled grabs before you can play the real game, that is a shallow, boring avenue of "improvement"--particularly when improving in the real game underneath is much deeper. We could add countless random execution and knowledge tests to the game in the name of giving players endless things to improve upon, but that would be stupid:

Again, we're talking about a gray area here. Some is good. Too much (or too hard) is bad. Too little is bad.

And you also have to keep in mind that we're talking about the Smash series here. The base of my argument is that the base design of Smash doesn't have enough sustainable depth for competitive high level play in the long term without the addition of these glitches and arbitrary knowledge. Are these the IDEAL way of adding reward for long term dedication to the game? No. But these are SMASH's ways unless a new core mechanic is added to the game.

Not all skill tests are created equal, and we want the highest density possible of NP-hard gameplay: things humans can literally improve themselves at forever.

This conversation makes David Sirlin a really, really sad panda.

http://www.sirlin.net/posts/podcast-sirlin-on-game-design

I find quoting Sirlin as if he's a god is cop out in game design arguments. I agree with Sirlin more than I disagree with him, but he is not the only voice that counts. Don't forget that Sirlin only really worked on one fighting game, Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix, which died out fairly quickly. I haven't played his card game Yomi but I hear it is pretty good.

I think many of his points are valid and sound, just not all of them.

Wait, this sounds like you are arguing for my side. Give people REAL stuff to practice with ACTUAL DEPTH, rather than make them practice inputs.

In a game focused on difficult inputs, Chris G would always beat random No-Tech Timmy.

Yes. I told you, some of what you argue is core to my own game design philosophy but you take it to an extreme.

I can't disagree more. I felt infinitely more satisfaction and growth when all I had to focus on was yomi, dynamic spacing, and option evaluation.

Practicing l-cancelling and wavedashing was boring as hell. (So was practicing DACUS)

You are an exception. Most people do find satisfaction and growth in things that involve technical skill as long as the technical skill isn't too arbitrary or difficult to pull off (which I feel both L-canceling and wavedashing fall into).

No, fighting games excel in using a real-time interface to compress an incredibly high density of yomi decisions. The idea that we need super tough button inputs is Cocaine Logic.

If we wanted execution tests, we'd go bowling. Or just play Beatmania.

Yes. There needs to be a balance.

 

[gameprodigy12]

You know what I find hilarious? That the only people saying that Rosalina is fine are the Rosalina mains. Of course them of all people of the Smash 4 community will say no to Rosalina being nerfed. Think about it, you ever wonder why Rosalina mains are coming out on top on every single tournament?

You do realize Rosalina mains are ok with the nerf right? We don't complain about the nerf, but we are against people who say stuff like she was OP. We know that the Luma respawn time was ridiculous and would not complain about the nerf unless the nerf itself was ridiculous. Adding 5 seconds to the timer is fair. Also Rosalinas are not coming on top of every tournament. Sheiks, ZSS, Greninjas, etc. have been as well. So don't generalize the Rosalina mains by saying those things and how you think they say she's fine.

 

[Conda]

Yeah no I was talking about the technical aspect (in theory) of L canceling. I agree its a horrible mechanic because L canceling is always ideal and not L canceling is never the correct choice to make. I also think L canceling is also difficult to do technically. But the idea of L canceling as something you learn over time and causes a visible/measurable improvement in your gameplay was something quite nice.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on Brawl and Smash 4 though. While yes there is some reward to learning the game and your character, my argument is that there is not enough reward. If you think that there is enough then this just falls into a personal opinion difference I believe. Unless you want to start quantifying how much is enough (which I'd argue a large factor is longevity which I think we can all agree Brawl didn't do so well).



Yes and no. I briefly touch on why SOME execution barriers are healthy and good for fighting games. Too many (or too high) of execution barriers I believe are detrimental in many ways, but having absolutely no execution barrier is also quite detrimental. I can go into detail later if you'd like (and if I have the time lol).



I understand in context but I disagree with the example chosen. I feel like utlizing this new tech well and integrating it into actual gameplay is a skill that isn't binary. I actually have trouble thinking of an example in Smash that is strictly binary because of the nature of Smash Brothers as a game.



Again, we're talking about a gray area here. Some is good. Too much (or too hard) is bad. Too little is bad.

And you also have to keep in mind that we're talking about the Smash series here. The base of my argument is that the base design of Smash doesn't have enough sustainable depth for competitive high level play in the long term without the addition of these glitches and arbitrary knowledge. Are these the IDEAL way of adding reward for long term dedication to the game? No. But these are SMASH's ways unless a new core mechanic is added to the game.



I find quoting Sirlin as if he's a god is cop out in game design arguments. I agree with Sirlin more than I disagree with him, but he is not the only voice that counts. Don't forget that Sirlin only really worked on one fighting game, Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix, which died out fairly quickly. I haven't played his card game Yomi but I hear it is pretty good.

I think many of his points are valid and sound, just not all of them.



Yes. I told you, some of what you argue is core to my own game design philosophy but you take it to an extreme.




You are an exception. Most people do find satisfaction and growth in things that involve technical skill as long as the technical skill isn't too arbitrary or difficult to pull off (which I feel both L-canceling and wavedashing fall into).




Yes. There needs to be a balance.

Yomi (the card game) is okay. A pure rock paper scissors ordeal. I mean it's balanced, but it's not at the same time as its R-P-S balance which everything has been moving away from in the competitive videogame scene for imo very good reasons.

 

[DaRedMage]

Rosalinas are not coming on top of every tournament. Sheiks, ZSS, Greninjas, etc. have been as well. So don't generalize the Rosalina mains by saying those things and say she's fine.

Than ban them. BAN EVERYONE BUT NESS! U CAN CALL ME POLLYANNA CUZ I'M CRAZY AS A LOON

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I think ensuring we don't have the entire section dedicated to patch speculator scum would be good.

I made the thread as a target to magnet patch speculator scum talk. Now I'm debating game design. Unexpected yet fun consequence!

 

[Conda]

I made the thread as a target to magnet patch speculator scum talk. Now I'm debating game design. Unexpected yet fun consequence!

I feel we should toast to that.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, seeing as this is just a 'revelation' conversation to the whole prospect, I'm not too fussed, as long as it isn't stupid/trash talking. May not have a long-term prospect for discourse [I'm sure it'll become very repetitive, if it hasn't already]. I'm hoping we can easily and quickly discern everything that's been changed after this patch, then we can likely make a hypothesis or broad conclusions on Sakurai's maintenance philosophy to the game (in short term as well as potentially in the future), and then just sit back and wait~

 

[DaRedMage]

Hey guys, what's your favorite Super Smash Bros game? Mine's the under appreciated gem called Super Smash Bros Melee.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

For those missing the stream, Mii Brawler's (broken) custom Up B that kills at 40% is causing some waves (mostly negative ). So yeah. We miiiiiiiight need to likely revise the legality of Miis, or at least some of their customs.

I'm starting to think that maybe the miis won't ever see balance changes -- perhaps they weren't designed or intended to be competitively balanced to begin with.

The player using the Brawler (dapuffster) is also changing between different Miis between fights, with different weight/height, making things very difficult for any player going against them as their attack speed, range, movement, etc are very different. Not sure if we should revise that, or enforce 1 mii per mii fighter type to prevent players from switching between heights and such between matches. And they do change a lot, especially regarding movement speed, jump height/mobility, attack range, and attack speed.

Where's a video of this? What custom move is Brawler using?

 

[Deleted member]

Text = Negative input from others
(Shades of blue) = My response
Text = A point made by me (usually in conjunction with My Response)

This forum has really transformed, it seems. Anyways, here's my input on what's transpiring.

Advanced Techniques exist, and glitches shouldn't be removed.

You see, i have noticed alot of people bashing ATs and bugs/glitches, however the main reason that people hate them is because they don't understand them nor know how to do them, that's human nature, and it's flawed human nature at that.

Here are some of the arguments against, these things that i have heard and my defense for them
-
There are plenty of people that are saying that ATs and Glitches are Ko0l KiDz (lol) tactics that are only used by smashboarders. That is a stereotype, because the same smashboarders that are responsible for alot of ATs are the same smashboarders that made taunt parties, the undeniably most casual thing to ever exist in smash. So that gets thrown out the window.

Glitches/Bugs go against the creator's intents, therefor it is bad and destroys the creator's intentions.
This is true, but just because it is true doesn't mean that Glitches are bad, I'll admit, when you create a game, usually it's your characters, your coding and data, and your time spent to create the product therefore you should get to design it as you please, however there is one thing that you are forgetting and that is just like any human, game developers are flawed. This means that not everything one does is perfect just because they made it. Another thing that you people fail to realize is that if games were exactly as developers intended, gaming as a whole would be linear and pointless, no longer would you be indulging in a game, but rather a movie that simply requires you to press a few buttons, but regardless, the result is the same. So now you have a Video Game just without the "Game" part to it. I'd also like to say that as a game developer myself, i have made games that have had bugs in it against my will, however i soon realized that i actually began to like my games more because of this bug than before without it. For all you know, most of Smash 4 could consist of bugs that Sakurai never originally wanted, but then realized that these errors were better than his original concepts, polished the bugs as opposed to scrapping them, and ran with it.

Competitive Play, ATs, and Glitches/Bugs increase a game's life span. If you ever played a game like Walking Dead you would know where i am getting at, in games like those there are no glitches that i know of, but once you beat the game, even with all of the options there is little replay value to it. In Smash though, there is no set beginning or end, and the game can be played casually and competitively. Now pay attention to what i am about to type and be honest casual gamers - Have you ever played a Smash Bros. game for the sole purpose of playing it on a couch with friends, then a month to a year later, dropping it for another game? The answer is probably yes. I am not a casual so i wouldn't know for sure, but if i had to guess i would say if i was one that - "the game got played out for me, i unlocked all the content, used all the items, did all the events, and it was fun!, now it's time to move on". But with the competitive scene, the viewpoint is entirely different, you play the game and probably aren't the best, but as opposed to trying to complete the game, your goal is to get better at it, to meet new pros/friends, to win tournaments, and it's because of this that Melee has lasted for 13 years now, because in Melee, there are ATs that have impacted the metagame completely, allowing for more offensive and aggressive play. And i will admit, when i got into competitive Melee i got smashed back and forth, i had no idea what was going on, at some point in a tournament i even turned on Items because i thought they were supposed to be on (that didn't end well), and when i saw all of these fancy techniques i thought that they were exploits and i disliked them, now here i am using them naturally (don't worry, i dont use items in tourneys anymore, i learned my lesson). it's things like this, that make Smash, Smash. with Bugs, we have DACUS, some throw cancels, glide-tossing, etc. And people are consistently finding new exploits/glitches/ATs. People find ways to unlock a character's full potential, to help balance the game, to get good, to randomly do something wierd then realize that it isn't random, and learn how master it. Also, ATs Glitches, and Bugs when mastered, reward the one who mastered them, and it puts skill gaps between players, so all of your hard work can pay off. This is the heart of Smash, reaching such levels that you are way above somebody's skill level, then when they surpass you, you work on surpassing them again, until eventually, you become Ultimate Smashers, with no longer a mere skill gap, but a Skill Fissure between you and less-skilled players, and from there you still continue to get better and better until less-skilled players have no chance of beating you regardless of how many times they outsmart you (if possible for them to outsmart you that is), driving them to get to your level too, so there is always this friendly yet aggressive tussle to be the best, going through all the ranks, challenges, setbacks, then meeting your match, only to continue to get better and better with no end to the possibilities. This is what makes a game like Smash Bros. live so long. Had the game been 100% as Sakurai intended (a casual party game), The Smash Bros. series might have come to an end at Melee due to a generally low audience, nobody playing it for more than a week, lack of interest and nobody buying it, and the worst one, Nintendo not wanting to continue the series.

Balance Changes Need To Be Made /Vs\ Don't Change Anything
To be honest, both are opinions, so in this instance, the text color is slightly misleading, but it looks cool.
I personally think that Wii U Smash will be better than 3DS Smash in all situations, including balance. Why?
The controllers. You see, i am a big fan of the round non-pro Classic Controller, and the Gamecube Controller, and to be honest, both feel better than the 3DS' control scheme, which is what will play the biggest difference. You see, the 3DS' System-Controller is very limiting as it was not meant for Smash Bros. so as a result, the game favors innovative characters that can just dash-attack spam and set up tent and camp which is the cause of alot of inbalances, because in The Real Smash 4 (Wii U Version) Mario, for example, can probably mop the floor with Yoshi due to having a better controller and access to techs that the 3DS version simply can't do, Yet with Smash Wii U's Portable Preview Edition, these things aren't possible, with the circle pad being to sensitive If the D-pad were an option it being to clunky and blocky for the likes of Smash, and the actual input buttons easily breakable (shoulder buttons) in conjunction with the 3DS' generally fragile build makes Smash a literal nuisance to play on the Preview Console.

However, it's inevitable that even with Wii U Smash, things will be unbalanced, and usually the only people who complain about balance patches are people who fear that their OP Character might be nerfed, which would prevent the mistake Melee made: Having people brainlessly choose Fox because he can win as opposed to trying to get good and playing lower tiered characters in attempts to raise them up from their low positions.
Hopefully, with Nintendo hard at work, we will never run into that same mistake ever again, because character positions should never remain final, it should constantly be rearranged until a certain point where everyone is as close to balanced as unique characters can get. Why? Because we already know that people will only play the characters that they know can win and call themselves good. So if Sakurai confuses the competitive community -- (I am competitive but regardless of tiers i am still making Mewtwo my primary and most important main) -- then they can never settle for one single character and will have to constantly mix it up to be the best fighter until eventually they decide to just play who they like regardless of tiers, just in time for Sakurai to put balance changes on hold (but still keeping them in mind).

Also, you guys need to think about others more, i mean, i know you like spamming Samus' charge shot or Sheik's bouncing fish/needles, but in the end, is it really balanced or fair, i know the point is to win but if you have any honor within you, you would want to win while wanting to have a fair fight, where both sides have a chance, like Goku.
-------------------------------------------
These are just my personal opinions.
The point is that you guys need to stop bashing ATs Glitches, Competitive players, or Bugs, and accept that your mains are potentially overpowered or underpowered and need to be nerfed or buffed.

 

[Paul the Octopus]

I have mixed feelings on Dash Dancing, because it's an interesting set of options that by nature cannot exist without its input frequency--sort of like certain high-apm StarCraft formation behaviors, which also fit what you are thinking.

At the end of the day I feel like DD has a long "signal to noise" ratio; only a very small percentage of your inputs actually matter. It's also legitimately hard to do at certain distances (the shorter, the harder), and it adds more emphasis to reaction time vs. more interesting skills. What's particularly disappointing is the nature of the difficulty: it's based on finger speed, rather than coordination. I bet I could teach my parents to l-cancel at least some of the time, but they'd probably never be able to dash dance at any distance or consistency... (Some of my friends struggle with DD and other "fast" inputs in games too.)

I don't think DD is especially bad design, but I'd be in favor of exploring alternatives. StarCraft 2 was able to find some degree of solutions to the problems they faced, resulting in similar options with slightly lower execution barriers.

If it were up to me, I'd try making reverse dash a slightly distinct backpedal state, that works the same going into a run but has different physics and legal actions on pushing forward. This would be a relatively clean substitute for dash-dancing (depending on how you handle the transitions), reverse wave-dashing, and salmon-smashing, at least in theory. Something like this you have to see in practice.

I'd also be curious to see a unique, chargeable "high dash attack" replacing u-smashes out of a run--just like we have normal dash attacks instead of just doing f-tilts, and dash grabs and pivot grabs instead of normal grabs. This new distinct move could be tuned around sliding and stopping, serving as a more elegant DACUS. Just a curious experiment.

Edit:
For the record, I am unsure if Brawl and Smash 4's approach to wavedashing is ultimately better than Melee's. (Much harder, but much less significant/dominant.)

I think you've made a lot of good, thoughtful points. However, I think you are unfairly bucketing wavedashing with l-canceling (or at least glossing over wavedashing). While l-canceling is a strictly dominant option that adds no depth (I agree it's always better to l-cancel), wavedashing is the exact opposite. Wavedashing is not a binary option at all. It allows for movement and flexibility that otherwise wouldn't be possible. The ability to more precisely adjust your positioning adds layers and layers of depth and yomi to the game that wouldn't exist otherwise.

I think it'd also be useful to clarify that while it may be bad game design to rely on unintended mechanics, that doesn't mean a game that relies on unintended mechanics is a bad game. My enjoyment of a game has little/no dependency on what was intended/unintended. All that matters to me while I am playing a game is the options I have in front of me, and I don't feel any better in a disadvantageous/uninteresting situation because I know designers intended it that way. In Melee, I think l-canceling was a necessary evil. While the skill itself is uninteresting, and practicing it is boring, playing a faster paced meta game (what you get when everyone can l-cancel) is very interesting. The same thing could have been accomplished if game designers just halved the landing lag on all aerials, but in the absence of that l-canceling is still better than no l-canceling. Playing a slow game with laggy aerials wouldn't make me feel any better knowing it was intended.

Note: I'm not insinuating that you believe unintended mechanics = bad game (maybe you do, maybe you don't). Just clarifying for the broader audience, as I couldn't tell and others may have gotten this impression too.

 

[BriefCasey795]

I think Duck Hunt should receive a nerf.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You know what I find hilarious? That the only people saying that Rosalina is fine are the Rosalina mains. Of course them of all people of the Smash 4 community will say no to Rosalina being nerfed. Think about it, you ever wonder why Rosalina mains are coming out on top on every single tournament?

I've never denied she's top tier, although I still expect that once the Wii U version drops and more people start playing, anti-Rosalina (or anti-Luma, specifically) tech will start being developed. An explicit nerf in the form of an extended Luma respawn timer is already coming down the pipe anyway, which increases the reward for killing Luma off and indirectly incentivises doing so in the first place as opposed to ignoring or avoiding it altogether.

Also, although I'll admit I'm not exactly on top of current Smash news, Dabuz is literally the only notable Rosalina I've heard of. If she's being represented en masse and taking first at all sorts of tournaments then I'd agree we have a situation.

 

[BBC7]

Hey guys, what's your favorite Super Smash Bros game? Mine's the over appreciated gem called Super Smash Bros Melee.

Bold indicates that something has been fixed.

 

[DaRedMage]

Bold indicates that something has been fixed.

The joke is that no body is playing Melee like it was supposed to made, every body just loves the rule,

NO ITEMS

FOX ONLY





FINAL DESTINATION

 

[Balgorxz]

I'd really 5/6 of the roster getting buffs, also thanks daddy sakurai for doubling luma's respawn time

 

[NairWizard]

Disagree with almost every post made after Samurai's initial one on game design, so instead I'll address the one part that I found myself in agreement with:

We've heard it over and over again that fun is subjective. It's the rebuttal that competitive Smash players use against the argument that they're playing the game wrong because they don't embrace the free for all chaos that Smash advertises itself as. It applies here too: different people get satisfaction out of games differently, and this includes competitive gaming as well. In other words, while Sirlin views games as a domain of the mind, some people like the idea of being able to defeat brains with brawn even in games. They like the idea that they can train up their "muscles", and that, by being bigger, faster, and stronger too, even the most brilliant tactical mind in the world wouldn't be able to keep up.

Yep. Think of it like a boxing match. While it's true that decision-making and concentration matter in a boxing match, speed and execution also matter--and I'm not talking about reaction time; I'm talking about years and years of hardcore practice at landing punches in just the right fashion, at spacing your legs in just the right manner. Sometimes I will win a boxing match because I outsmart and outwit my opponent; I make better decisions, I duck when he punches, I punch when he's open. But sometimes, I will win because I'm just plain faster, my punches hit harder, or I've just been doing this for far longer and by now I've memorized all the motions. That's what makes boxing different from other games and sports. That's satisfying for some people.

True, this is not strictly comparable to all ATs such as Palutena's infinite Lightweight glitch. Thinkaman and some others have called this kind of AT a "binary execution barrier" that some people will never be able to cross. I think that's perfectly fine, for two reasons. 1) The same kinds of people who will never be able to DACUS and L-cancel are also generally the people with slower reflexes/reaction times, and we can't exactly remove that particular barrier; and 2.) it's more fun for many people to watch something that they can't personally do because of technical limitations. This is why many people prefer fighting game tournaments to other kinds of tournaments. Watch a game of Hearthstone and they might think, "I could do that." Watch a game of Melee and they might think, "Damnnnnnnn, that was siiiiick!" When wavedashing, L-canceling, etc. all come together, it's satisfying to watch for some viewers because they can't do the same.

Smash doesn't have to abide by the principles of game design that anyone prescribes. If the ATs are removed, so be it. If they aren't removed, so be it. Your idea of toxic will not be someone else's idea of toxic; some people will want tech skill to matter and others will not. There are games available of both types: play what suits you.

 

[Asdioh]

Well I just read this whole thread. That was fun, but I hoped more people would be trying to find differences in the wiiu version since that's what this patch will probably look like.
megamans upair looks so much bigger, are you sure they just changed the animation to match the hitbox? His upair is my favorite move ever and I've never noticed it being that wide. It also somehow looks worse than on 3ds, visually.

 

[GeZ]

snip-

Is there really another boxer on smashboards? COULD IT BE TRUE?

 

[NAKAT]

Let's not put @ NAKAT in a corner guys, if you disagree with what he says that fine. Saying a character is good when you think he's bad for legitimate reasons isn't reason to get fired up.

And why are we saying things like this:


I really like both you EmblemLord and @ A2ZOMG , but maybe we're enjoying the potential fired-up-discussion prospects a little too much and putting @ NAKAT on the spot in a weird way. Bringing up things he may have said, demanding he say more, etc etc. He's a great player but he's not a political candidate or anything, let's not grill the guy or make things unwelcoming for sake of entertainment.

I like you. Very mature.

 

[Jigglymaster]

For those missing the stream, Mii Brawler's (broken) custom Up B that kills at 40% is causing some waves (mostly negative ). So yeah. We miiiiiiiight need to likely revise the legality of Miis, or at least some of their customs.

I'm starting to think that maybe the miis won't ever see balance changes -- perhaps they weren't designed or intended to be competitively balanced to begin with.

The player using the Brawler (dapuffster) is also changing between different Miis between fights, with different weight/height, making things very difficult for any player going against them as their attack speed, range, movement, etc are very different. Not sure if we should revise that, or enforce 1 mii per mii fighter type to prevent players from switching between heights and such between matches. And they do change a lot, especially regarding movement speed, jump height/mobility, attack range, and attack speed.

I can assure you that all my mii's were the same at this last tournament that I went to, being at the lightest weight and height. I would've told the opponent specifically if I was actually using something different. Think of it as like alternate costumes.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah, small Brawler and Gunner is optimal. It's not a huge advantage, but it's enough to outweigh the psychological benefit of the super slight shifts in weight. (98-102 I recall? That doesn't really throw much off...)

 

[Conda]

I can assure you that all my mii's were the same at this last tournament that I went to, being at the lightest weight and height. I would've told the opponent specifically if I was actually using something different. Think of it as like alternate costumes.

Ah sorry. I didn't think less of you even when I was under the impression that's what was going on, I'm a fan of your Brawler play so far. Mii weight/size limits, or limits on changing them between matches, is something that we clearly don't have a rule in place for yet and should work on solidifying. Just to make things tighter and a little less "what? a mii? what's going on?" at tournaments

Yeah, small Brawler and Gunner is optimal. It's not a huge advantage, but it's enough to outweigh the psychological benefit of the super slight shifts in weight. (98-102 I recall? That doesn't really throw much off...)

You get extra range (big deal) and up to 1% bonus on most attacks (less big deal), but slower attack recovery and crappier jumps etc. I prefer the smaller miis and I think for competitive play, speed is always the better stat to go with for a Mii.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Yeah smaller mii's are the way to go, they gain better jump, run speed, and faster attacks in exchange for range, 1% power and very slightly lighter.

With all my miis at the lowest in both categories, having anything else would be disadvantageous for me. And I wouldn't stoop as low to sneak equipment on, I'm not that bad of a player haha.


Anyways, I think the one inch punch should be patched. Hopefully it will, the move isn't that broken otherwise. It has no business having that much knockback.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I actually really prefer max size for Mii Swordfighter; his sword is something like twice as long at max size vs min which matters more than speed to me on a disjoint character.

Either way, while I'm not sure it will be in this particular patch, I'm pretty sure that Mii Brawler exploit will be patched eventually. It's just really messed up, and while it's not actually broken as far as I can tell (hold down and it only kills off platforms ever even if you're Jigglypuff!), it's definitely not a well designed element and actually just a transparent oversight. We should probably just accept it for what it is for now and not miss it when it inevitably goes away.

 

[Big O]

From what I can tell, Mii Swordfighter's sword size is actually dependent on his weight. Being fat means you get a broadsword, while being skinny leaves you with a dagger. It is very strange behavior and being tall only gives him minor range boosts based off limbs for grabs and stuff like the arc of his Nair.

I think being short and fat/skinny are just optimal in general due to less lag, more maneuverability and smaller hurtboxes. The range differences between tall and short are generally minor when compared to the speed reductions you suffer imo.

 

[Tagxy]

Again, we're talking about a gray area here. Some is good. Too much (or too hard) is bad. Too little is bad.

And you also have to keep in mind that we're talking about the Smash series here. The base of my argument is that the base design of Smash doesn't have enough sustainable depth for competitive high level play in the long term without the addition of these glitches and arbitrary knowledge. Are these the IDEAL way of adding reward for long term dedication to the game? No. But these are SMASH's ways unless a new core mechanic is added to the game.



I find quoting Sirlin as if he's a god is cop out in game design arguments. I agree with Sirlin more than I disagree with him, but he is not the only voice that counts. Don't forget that Sirlin only really worked on one fighting game, Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix, which died out fairly quickly. I haven't played his card game Yomi but I hear it is pretty good.

I think many of his points are valid and sound, just not all of them.

Its worth listening to that podcast he linked, as it explains many of the concepts being discussed better then they can be stated here. I dont like copping out to Sirlin either but they are well explained. I also dont think its fair to judge an opinion based on how many games the person designed, namco and nintendo have designed a large amount of games but I feel you arent a fan of their design philosophy. In any case you can judge the ideas themselves instead.

Im sure Thinkaman will make his own response, but the difference in opinion between both sides seems to come down to a depth assessment. Im not quite sure what your stance is but its something regarding a need for the existence of sizable amounts of complex game mechanics or else depth isnt sustainable, is that incorrect?

The opposite argument to this is that game mechanics in and of themselves do not cause depth, they only act as tools to facilitate deep decision making. If a competitive game is made correctly you should never reach the limits of its depth, and this doesnt have to do with complex mechanics themselves. Many games are enduring in spite of complex mechanics simply because they are well made with limitless depth.

 

[JmacAttack]

I just want to know what the hell 'Yomi' is.

"Yomi" is the Japanese word for "reading". So, a Yomi is a read.

 

[Will-O-Wisp]

Falcon was already pretty thoroughly buffed from his Brawl incarnation (plus the changes to the game engine, allowing combos again, helped a lot too). I don't think he needs a whole lot more than he has to be decent.

That is the world's cutest signature and how can i get it?

 

[chipndip]

Ok, I'm not reading all this stuff, but I wanna throw in my 2 cents as an opinionated smasher:

1) Mario has potential, but he's not high tier. He's a very mid-tier choice atm, and could stand for some buffing on probably his b-air and u-smash. U-smash needs to be a proper KO move, as does b-air. That would be a very solid way of making this character good without breaking anything.

2) Anyone saying Rosalina doesn't stand to be nerfed is somewhat shady and shouldn't be trusted. Zamus, Shiek, and Rosa+Luma are top candidates for nerfing before anyone else. Bible thump that and tell your friends.

3) If we're gonna do this Melee > Other Smash games thing again, I'ma keep it brief:

a) Melee players tend to not like anything but Melee as far as I've seen. Only people I see going "Eh, Idk...I don't like Sm4sh" or "I'm so unimpressed by Sm4sh" are Melee players and their "All my friends that magically share my opinion" references. As usual. As expected.

b) This game seriously doesn't need to be Melee. Almost EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER has either a special move or a dash attack to punish a roll spammer with. Easily? Depends. At all? Of course. That's why I don't get the whining. If someone's spamming rolls, then they most likely aren't even that good. The best players tend to short hop, fast fall, dash, shield, super armor...just about anything but roll or spot dodge. Air dodging was nerfed to very satisfying degrees, so now you can't spam it, land, and dodge away, so of course those that hold up their ground game have better defensive mechanics to utilize: a stronger roll. Now I'm not saying every character's roll is ideal, but for the most part, defensive mechanics are really well balanced. Sure people aren't used to it, but with the right mindset, it'll fall into place. Maybe a nerf on a few character specific rolls, but not a huge cast-wide nerf.

c) I'm not saying this game can't ever be improved, balance-wise, but some people are letting the salt get too far into their system. The whining is really overblown in many cases.

4) Miis should be banned. Straight up. If you can change Mii dimensions so their stats change, then THAT should be the final curtain call. Once-a-freaking-gain, there's a good reason why they, along with other things, weren't allowed in FG mode...well, outside of possible copyright shenanigans. Regardless, their uncanny ability to be as customizable as their outward appearance should already be a huge deal breaker. There's no standard for them. Also, KOs at 40%? Guys...pls...

5) My stance on custom moves atm:

-If this balance patch actually addresses them and balances them, then I'll probably be in favor of them in competitive play.

-If it DOESN'T, they need to go.

#MyShaky2CentsBasedOnWhatISkimmed

 

[Hippieslayer]

Wow.. so much baseless speculation in this thread it's disgusting. People really overestimate their ability to tell how good the characters are. I hope they don't do much nerfing, if they **** up little Mac then they are catering to idiots who cba to learn how to play the game.

Only thing I daresay is I hope they buff Ganon, Olimar and Mii Swordfighter.

 

[Cruncher93]

I hope they don't do much nerfing, if they **** up little Mac then they are catering to idiots who cba to learn how to play the game.

Sakurai stated in an interview that LM has the worst winrate online, yet he believes he is fine and the winrate stems from new players thinking Mac is "an easy win". Seems Sakurai does more than just look at winrates and buff/nerf accordingly.

http://i.imgur.com/EBcz969.jpg Scan of the interview, for a translation go to http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/632937-super-smash-bros-for-nintendo-3ds/70561893