Upcoming 1.0.4 Balance Patch in November!

[Conda]

My only concern about custom banning is that a lot of people want them banned before we have even tried them competitively. People say they'll make the game unbalanced, but we don't have the knowledge to say that because only 40%~ or so of tournaments are allowing them in the first place.

Could customs break the game? Sure, possibly. But we should give them a chance before we start claiming that they will.

We have and still are. One inch punch's bugginess supports the argument of those who wish to ban customs for balance skepticism. They were correct, so we either have to be strict about banning disruptively glitchy customs until they are bug fixed in a patch, or we continue along with all customs being banned, or Miis.

I don't want customs banned across the board at all. I think they are not disruptive and are balanced. However, one inch punch does require me to asterisk that statement with fine print. It's an exception.

 

[Thinkaman]

We have, and we are drawing conclusions based in competitive experience. One inch punch's bugginess supports the argument of those who wish to ban customs for balance skepticism. They were correct, so we either have to be strict about banning disruptively glitchy customs until they are bug fixed in a patch, or we continue along with all customs being banned, or Miis.

I'm confused. One-inch punch is stupid, but it's not game-breaking. It doesn't make Brawler the best character in the game; it gives him a difficult kill throw on high platform against light characters.

It doesn't "support" anything, it's just stupid and looks bad. (Did I mention how stupid it is?)


Tbqh, anyone who thinks customs makes the game "less balanced" is high as a kite.

What, they actually think that Ike, Ganon, Samus, and Palutena are already top tiers without them?

They think the characters with lackluster customs like Sheik, ZSS, Yoshi, and Diddy are bad?

I think the only top character who gains any relative benefit from custom moves is Sonic; all the low characters benefit immensely.

 

[CE_TheLord]

And .

You're forgetting someone...

 

[Conda]

I'm confused. One-inch punch is stupid, but it's not game-breaking. It doesn't make Brawler the best character in the game; it gives him a difficult kill throw on high platform against light characters.

It doesn't "support" anything, it's just stupid and looks bad. (Did I mention how stupid it is?)


Tbqh, anyone who thinks customs makes the game "less balanced" is high as a kite.

What, they actually think that Ike, Ganon, Samus, and Palutena are already top tiers without them?

They think the characters with lackluster customs like Sheik, ZSS, Yoshi, and Diddy are bad?

I think the only top character who gains any relative benefit from custom moves is Sonic; all the low characters benefit immensely.

The bug is about more than the throw combo on high platforms. Also, only one player is using him, but it was clear to the commentators and audience that getting free low percentage kills in many positions (not just top platform) randomly is exploitable. It gives his up b the strongest risk reward in the game, and solely due to a bug in its implementation. "New meta" was a statement that echoed very true immediately. There is no reason why many players shouldn't abuse this to get free accidental kills at any percent and gain a stock lead randomly. He won matches due to it triggering the fixed knockback, which is more than any other glitch has been able to do.

If Wectoring won Wario matches for simply performing the glitch, then it'd be a problem too. But as it is, it's just mobility silliness.

 

[Thinkaman]

For most characters (other than Jigglypuff), one-Inch Piston Punch can only kill at heights above the top Battlefield platform or a good jump above the Yoshi's platform.just, it doesn't have to be out of a throw, but you HAVE to be high enough for it to work.

It's not like normal kill moves, where a few extra % or rage can give you some wiggle room; it's a hard requirement.

 

[gameprodigy12]

Not to mention what if we find out in a month that three character can 0 to death RL easily? (Similar to how Ness and Lucas got grab release infinited by many chars in Brawl) Then it will seem like the nerf was totally unfair because she'll drop to mid tier even without the nerf. I'm not a fan of nerfing characters until the metagame has balanced.

I don't hate RL players or the character. I have no idea why people do. She's got serious weaknesses (very slow, very light) that I feel will be exploited once people have Gamecube controllers.

I doubt that she'll have that scenario and I know she has weaknesses, but not serious ones. They are weaknesses that will probabley drop her out of top 5 in top tier but remain their until people find more potential for her. Since her potential ceiling is the highest among the cast.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Tbqh, anyone who thinks customs makes the game "less balanced" is high as a kite.

What, they actually think that Ike, Ganon, Samus, and Palutena are already top tiers without them?

They think the characters with lackluster customs like Sheik, ZSS, Yoshi, and Diddy are bad?

I think the only top character who gains any relative benefit from custom moves is Sonic; all the low characters benefit immensely.

Was this intentional? It almost seems like the devs knew certain characters were better so they buffed some custom moves to make up the difference

 

[CE_TheLord]

About the custom moves, I think we should try them first to determine them if these are broken or not. C'mon people! The game was released like a month ago! We're going way too fast with Smash 4, some custom moves benefit characters like Marth and Ness giving more attack options or more recovery options, I think that if they are easy to get for all characters (At least in the Wii U version) they should be allowed in tournaments. About the Miis, I don't think they will get far enough competitive-wise, the weight differences between them affect the balance of the game, and moves like Piston Punch are quite annoying.

 

[Thinkaman]

Was this intentional? It almost seems like the devs knew certain characters were better so they buffed some custom moves to make up the difference

Yes and no. It's no accident, but not framed like you are phrasing it. There are two main factors:


First, one of the advantages of custom moves is that they allow characters whose balance was constrained by other modes to be re-adjusted as 1v1 focused-characters. For example, replacing Wizard's Kick with Wizard's Dropkick, or replacing Quick Draw with Close Combat.

Normally Ike and Ganondorf's balance is limited by how much they would dominate FFAs, but this lets us have our cake and eat it too.


Second, many of the best-looking characters are so good because... they have good specials. Imagine that, good characters are good because they have good moves.

Sheik and ZSS's custom specials are generally quite good moves in the grand scheme of things. But uh. Their defaults are already amazing. So they don't gain much.

I think Hammer Spin Dash is the best move in the game, but it's honestly not THAT big of an upgrade from Spin Dash. It's way more advantageous for Ganon to have custom moves than Sonic, in spite of this.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Yes and no. It's no accident, but not framed like you are phrasing it. There are two main factors:


First, one of the advantages of custom moves is that they allow characters whose balance was constrained by other modes to be re-adjusted as 1v1 focused-characters. For example, replacing Wizard's Kick with Wizard's Dropkick, or replacing Quick Draw with Close Combat.

Normally Ike and Ganondorf's balance is limited by how much they would dominate FFAs, but this lets us have our cake and eat it too.


Second, many of the best-looking characters are so good because... they have good specials. Imagine that, good characters are good because they have good moves.

Sheik and ZSS's custom specials are generally quite good moves in the grand scheme of things. But uh. Their defaults are already amazing. So they don't gain much.

I think Hammer Spin Dash is the best move in the game, but it's honestly not THAT big of an upgrade from Spin Dash. It's way more advantageous for Ganon to have custom moves than Sonic, in spite of this.

Does that mean that the top 1v1 characters have customs that help them in FFAs? Since the idea seems to be to use customs to balance the cast around both styles of play

 

[BBC7]

All of my butthurt about the removal of Rush Cancelling seems to be unfounded - it's still in according to a YouTuber by the name of JoeYoshi who has original gameplay videos of Smash Wii U.

 

[Conda]

Does that mean that the top 1v1 characters have customs that help them in FFAs? Since the idea seems to be to use customs to balance the cast around both styles of play

Not strictly. Customs are just broad enough for some characters that they can specialize a bit and change things up, meanwhile things like Falcon Punch are limited to their main purpose of being a slow KO punch. Pit has that big piercing arrow, obviously better for FFA instances, but it can still be alright in 1v1 too. Flexibility is different from character to character though. DK is always DK - a close range tank - but Samus can turn from a long-range zoner into a close-range space controller.

It's all liquid and open to interpretation, but some characters have more flexibility and opportunity for specialization between game modes. It's still up to personal preference, though. You may want that bigger area-effect move even in 1v1 if it'll help complement your other moves and your playstyle, even if aoe is generally not a 1v1 thing.

 

[Thinkaman]

Does that mean that the top 1v1 characters have customs that help them in FFAs? Since the idea seems to be to use customs to balance the cast around both styles of play

Yup, to some extent! Rarely are moves good for 1v1s exclusively though; it's much more pronounced for FFAs.

Yoshi's slower but stronger down-b steals kills easier.
Sheik's piercing needles is better for multiple targets.
Diddy's explosion-focused pop gun is used more like a Falcon Punch.

There's some other examples you can find.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Yup, to some extent! Rarely are moves good for 1v1s exclusively though; it's much more pronounced for FFAs.

Yoshi's slower but stronger down-b steals kills easier.
Sheik's piercing needles is better for multiple targets.
Diddy's explosion-focused pop gun is used more like a Falcon Punch.

There's some other examples you can find.

It makes so much sense now! Makes me wonder why they tied custom moves (important for game balance across multiple modes) to equipment (fundamentally terrible for balance)

 

[Thinkaman]

It makes so much sense now! Makes me wonder why they tied custom moves (important for game balance across multiple modes) to equipment (fundamentally terrible for balance)

This is the biggest weird thing about Smash 4--almost like this game's tripping, in a way.

The difference is, this doesn't actually matter or affect gameplay. It's just menus.

 

[popsofctown]

One inch punch is not banworthy until it destroys several tournaments, in spite of informed victims that are using the counter play (staying as low as possible, holding down on reaction to it, counterpicking heavies)

I'm more concerned about reports of players using slightly tweaked mii statistics from game to game to mess with people. Dealing with that is something I see as a skill you don't want to test in this genre. Uniformity in experience is important.

EDIT: Equips and custom moves are tied together into one section for the illusion of simplicity, I think. Making two buttons creates 4 modes of play and part of the smash bros design philosophy is to convince you you're playing a simple game, sometimes to a fault or to the point where you're being deceptive about game mechanics. I think that's also why previous game's lacked so much in game documentation on stuff like Hitstun Shuffling, Directional Influence, over 100% ledge options, etc

 

[Conda]

slightly tweaked mii statistics from game to game to mess with people. Dealing with that is something I see as a skill you don't want to test in this genre. Uniformity in experience is important.

Right, which is why an average/average mii limit may just make sense. Especially for mii metagame growth to flourish, as there will be a standard. Practicing vs Miis is also virtually impossible as height, speed, jump height, attack range, attack speed, attack, endlag, etc all change.

Allowing weight and height differences is kind of identical to allowing custom equipment that modify fighter stats. We ban the latter for uniformity reasons, so banning the former would logically follow. Unless we feel Miis need stat variances for some reason.

There's room for debate here, but it just makes sense to me because there needs to be some form of limitation in place so Miis can be standardised the way every other character is. Without it, they'll remain a weird wildcard and will continue to not be widely welcomed into the competitive scene.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I think the solution there is to require full disclosure of Mii parameters. It will be a rare player who is willing to use a worse character to be annoying, but just requiring them to be explicit about what they're doing should be sufficient.

I don't think Brawler's glitch needs to be in ban talks yet. It is 100% fixed knock back that always almost kills but rarely actually kills. I think it will prove very rare in general for Brawler to kill with this as people stop being surprised and begin holding down, and it's a sure bet it eventually gets patched. Why not just accept it for what it is?

 

[popsofctown]

I previously hoped people would just always use min weight min heights and that would end up being a defacto standard, but reality has proven me wrong.
The only enforceable form of limitation is default height/default weight because there's a page of such miis available. I'm assuming that works out for Wii U. You would have to make your custom set in front of your opponent, to verify you didn't make a similar looking mii with slightly less height or weight (but people could forfeit that verification if they aren't worried about cheating).

Mii Maker would be necessary to verify anything else and that takes too much time out of a tournament for enforcement.

@ Amazing Ampharos : do you think there is enough time in a tournament to verify someone has the parameters they're claiming, or do you want to use the honor system in a scene where we've scene replays of IDC snuck into matches and pots split?

 

[Thinkaman]

I am totally unconvinced that there is any value to be gained in slightly changing Mii settings vs using the best (smallest for Brawler) one.

Puffster certainly agrees.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I previously hoped people would just always use min weight min heights and that would end up being a defacto standard, but reality has proven me wrong.
The only enforceable form of limitation is default height/default weight because there's a page of such miis available. I'm assuming that works out for Wii U. You would have to make your custom set in front of your opponent, to verify you didn't make a similar looking mii with slightly less height or weight (but people could forfeit that verification if they aren't worried about cheating).

Mii Maker would be necessary to verify anything else and that takes too much time out of a tournament for enforcement.

@ Amazing Ampharos : do you think there is enough time in a tournament to verify someone has the parameters they're claiming, or do you want to use the honor system in a scene where we've scene replays of IDC snuck into matches and pots split?[/quote

Here's how I feel. If as a player you are concerned by your opponent's Mii parameters, request full disclosure and write it down where everyone can see. Play the game accepting their honesty. After the set during your between round downtime check the sliders on their 3ds in front of the TO or a rep. If they don't match what was written down, the Mii user gets a cheating DQ. I expect in practice extreme parameters will always prove correct and this won't cause much controversy, but we can have security in the rules at no real time loss.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I can appreciate the desire to standardize the Mii experience across all players but...yeah, I'm not convinced the differences are big enough to matter. Min to max weight is what, 98 to 102? I'm not sure what data there is on speed values or hitbox sizes but I'd expect similar amounts of "different-but-close-enough."

Meh, it's not like I plan to seriously use any of them to begin with so I have very little stake in the whole thing.

 

[popsofctown]

Here's how I feel. If as a player you are concerned by your opponent's Mii parameters, request full disclosure and write it down where everyone can see. Play the game accepting their honesty. After the set during your between round downtime check the sliders on their 3ds in front of the TO or a rep. If they don't match what was written down, the Mii user gets a cheating DQ. I expect in practice extreme parameters will always prove correct and this won't cause much controversy, but we can have security in the rules at no real time loss.

There's not always between round downtime, sometimes right after you lose a match you have a game to go play in Loser's Bracket. And the mii player may also have a match to play right after.

If extreme parameters are dominant it's better to just not have any restrictions on parameters and not require parameters to be disclosed to avoid the enforcement cost.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

EDIT: Equips and custom moves are tied together into one section for the illusion of simplicity, I think. Making two buttons creates 4 modes of play and part of the smash bros design philosophy is to convince you you're playing a simple game, sometimes to a fault or to the point where you're being deceptive about game mechanics. I think that's also why previous game's lacked so much in game documentation on stuff like Hitstun Shuffling, Directional Influence, over 100% ledge options, etc

Sacrificing a huge part of your game for simplicity is a weird choice...

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Dont overreact. Mii size and piston punch are not that substantial.

 

[Jabejazz]

Damn, I lost to that Mii Brawler. He uses the smaller version; moves so fast, literally couldn't react to anything he did.

 

[|RK|]

Relevant to the patch:

http://kotaku.com/little-mac-is-smash-bros-biggest-loser-1658263617

It turns out that Little Mac loses the most online. Hilarious.

 

[The21stSmasher]

You're forgetting someone...

Well.. To me it's Yes and No for him. I actually tried him out and he feels SUPER good compared to Falco. But he does indeed got some flaws on him. So yeah

 

[Zero Suit Senpai]

Relevant to the patch:

http://kotaku.com/little-mac-is-smash-bros-biggest-loser-1658263617

It turns out that Little Mac loses the most online. Hilarious.

Online winrates don't mean much for balance, though. For example, LeBlanc in league of legends had the lowest winrate in the game in general online play, when she was considered the best mid and pick/ban status in tournaments.

Not saying Little Mac is OP, but the fact that people side B of the edge all day in for glory or get grabbed out of their dash attack spam doesn't really reflect his power at higher levels. As a disclaimer I don't think he needs nerfs (but he certainly isn't fun to fight ).

 

[|RK|]

Online winrates don't mean much for balance, though. For example, LeBlanc in league of legends had the lowest winrate in the game in general online play, when she was considered the best mid and pick/ban status in tournaments.

Not saying Little Mac is OP, but the fact that people side B of the edge all day in for glory or get grabbed out of their dash attack spam doesn't really reflect his power at higher levels. As a disclaimer I don't think he needs nerfs (but he certainly isn't fun to fight ).

Right, but the odds are that Sakurai will make balance adjustments based on what he sees online, as opposed to tournament results.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

They probably have more stats then WLR, mobas certainly do.
Probably have overall pick/usage rate, total times picked, average damage dealt/received. If there is hidden MMR of worth they might be able to filter out characters of certain player demographics.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Relevant to the patch:

http://kotaku.com/little-mac-is-smash-bros-biggest-loser-1658263617

It turns out that Little Mac loses the most online. Hilarious.

The problem with this is that Little Mac is the popular newbie pick and he is a character that requires a lot of mastering. Once everyone gets around Mac's base power, good players are able to exploit all these terrible players. So all those losses don't really have much of a meaning other than, "A misused character losses a lot because he is misused."

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm fully expecting the patch to leave 1 thing for every 10 it fixes, resulting in endless complaints on the former.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm fully expecting the patch to leave 1 thing for every 10 it fixes, resulting in endless complaints on the former.

Also known as game updates in a nutshell.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm also predicting that there will be a random nerf to a character who is really successful in Japan but not here (no clue who it might be) that outrages people here.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I'm also predicting that there will be a random nerf to a character who is really successful in Japan but not here (no clue who it might be) that outrages people here.

is there precedence for this? (characters successful in Japan but not so here, I mean)

 

[Conda]

is there precedence for this? (characters successful in Japan but not so here, I mean)

Not at all. They have some players that use different characters, so you'll see a pac man and te like, but we have that too. Both pools are small so thrres different variety in them, but they dont play too different compared to us, just some differet styles which you get when you look at any player you havent seen play before.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm also predicting that there will be a random nerf to a character who is really successful in Japan but not here (no clue who it might be) that outrages people here.

I would assume Villager fits the bill. I'm almost certain there's someone in Japan who does well with him, but he hasn't gotten a lot of attention in the United States.

 

[DarkKiru]

The problem with this is that Little Mac is the popular newbie pick and he is a character that requires a lot of mastering. Once everyone gets around Mac's base power, good players are able to exploit all these terrible players. So all those losses don't really have much of a meaning other than, "A misused character losses a lot because he is misused."

If there is one thing I can at least find solace in, its that Mac likely won't get buffed needlessly (since Sakurai clearly agrees his low winrate doesn't mean he's a bad character). I'm sure most of us know what its like when characters get needlessly buffed or nerfed.

Generally I'd use the same measurement that I do for League of Legends, someone is only a "problem" if they have both a high pickrate and a high win rate across all levels of play, when both of those are high, you MIGHT be worth looking into (not that its a definite thing, but you're definitely worth looking into then)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah no I was talking about the technical aspect (in theory) of L canceling. I agree its a horrible mechanic because L canceling is always ideal and not L canceling is never the correct choice to make. I also think L canceling is also difficult to do technically. But the idea of L canceling as something you learn over time and causes a visible/measurable improvement in your gameplay was something quite nice.

The learning part is good for any game, the issue why what does that transition to other game and would any game really add that?
This is unhealthy when this design goes onto other like like PM and is added, cause meelehhh, and not really thinking about it outside of a traditional sense. That's why I am so strongly against it in any game and I could care less for what people consider for personal gratification on that front.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on Brawl and Smash 4 though. While yes there is some reward to learning the game and your character, my argument is that there is not enough reward. If you think that there is enough then this just falls into a personal opinion difference I believe. Unless you want to start quantifying how much is enough (which I'd argue a large factor is longevity which I think we can all agree Brawl didn't do so well)

We most likely won't.

I maintain that saying Brawl/Smash 4 is easy mode and nothing to learn is honestly full of it, even more so for Smash 4 right now.

The learning aspect is not why Brawl fell off before Smash 4, a lot of it was Metaknight, PM's shiny new smash content appeal and Melee's uptaking in E-sports and other events.

The learning aspect is not why it fell off at all.