Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[FazDude]

Hot take of my own - Smash 4's target test was pretty fun. Would still prefer the traditional method, but I enjoyed Target Blast.

 

[Baysha]

Like I said earlier, Melee Adventure feels like a glorified Classic mode with platforming stages tacked on. It falls short of its own potential too.

Personally, that doesn't really sound too bad to me. Platforming stages by themselves are a bit of a novelty and a "big grand adventure" seems like a waste of resources that could be spent elsewhere.

 

[Quillion]

Personally, that doesn't really sound too bad to me. Platforming stages by themselves are a bit of a novelty and a "big grand adventure" seems like a waste of resources that could be spent elsewhere.

But as long as they keep recycling a good amount of Ultimate's assets, there should be plenty of resources to go around.

Not to the point of a wholesale port of course, but still.

 

[Demon Dragon]

Bring back break the targets, and I mean real break the targets not the **** that was in 3DS. Do it Brawl-style with set levels per difficulty setting if you need to, there's obviously way too many characters to give them each their own at this point. On that same token, Board the Platforms and Race to the Finish would've been nice.

Oh my god, yes. I especially want to see those latter two modes come back. My (rather unrealistic) idea is for the next Stage Builder to include the targets and platforms so that we can create our own Break The Targets / Board The Platforms and share it online.

 

[Perkilator]

Oh my god, yes. I especially want to see those latter two modes come back. My (rather unrealistic) idea is for the next Stage Builder to include the targets and platforms so that we can create our own Break The Targets / Board The Platforms and share it online.

Even better; a Mode Editor where you can create your own Target Tests and Classic Mode routes and share them online.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I'd be down for a Smash sequel that greatly emphasized customization of all types. Far deeper Mii creation, much more detailed stage maker, user generated Break the Targets/Board the Platforms, and the real major canvas; create your own Spirit Battles and World of Light Campaigns.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

I'd be down for a Smash sequel that greatly emphasized customization of all types. Far deeper Mii creation, much more detailed stage maker, user generated Break the Targets/Board the Platforms, and the real major canvas; create your own Spirit Battles and World of Light Campaigns.

I feel like this would be a good compromise if we do wind up having to downsize the Ultimate roster in the next game. Slightly smaller, more tight-knit roster but with an ass-load of customization options.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Roy is as much of a clone as Lucas, Isabelle, Wolf and Luigi are. As in, they are all semiclones.

And semiclones are worth keeping, especially since they finally made his intended playstyle work and work well.

 

[Quillion]

Roy is as much of a clone as Lucas, Isabelle, Wolf and Luigi are. As in, they are all semiclones.

And semiclones are worth keeping, especially since they finally made his intended playstyle work and work well.

I think the real issue is whether making a character a clone (or echo) fits the character in question or wastes their potential.

• The Marth derivatives are all fine because they're all from a TBSRPG, not exactly a whole lot of animations to draw from.
• Isabelle is fine since most of the workable Animal Crossing elements are covered by Villager anyway, so overlap is inevitable.
• Wolf works since ground combat in Star Fox has no design consistency anyway.
• And Luigi as of now is trying to reconcile elements from his own emergent Luigi's Mansion series while balancing that with his origins as Mario's P2 character.

But then we something like Dark Pit, who is like if Octoling got in Smash and they ended up having the same exact moveset as Inkling.

 

[Lenidem]

I think the real issue is whether making a character a clone (or echo) fits the character in question or wastes their potential.

• The Marth derivatives are all fine because they're all from a TBSRPG, not exactly a whole lot of animations to draw from.
• Isabelle is fine since most of the workable Animal Crossing elements are covered by Villager anyway, so overlap is inevitable.
• Wolf works since ground combat in Star Fox has no design consistency anyway.
• And Luigi as of now is trying to reconcile elements from his own emergent Luigi's Mansion series while balancing that with his origins as Mario's P2 character.

But then we something like Dark Pit, who is like if Octoling got in Smash and they ended up having the same exact moveset as Inkling.

It's been said numerous times, but Dark Pit is so low priority (and for good reasons) that if he was not an Echo, he would just be a palette swap, not a full fledged character.

 

[Quillion]

It's been said numerous times, but Dark Pit is so low priority (and for good reasons) that if he was not an Echo, he would just be a palette swap, not a full fledged character.

Touché, and I can see that the same was true of Dr. Mario and Daisy.

Still, with the lingering controversy over Ganondorf's moveset, I don't think another cross-franchise clone will go over well.

 

[Lenidem]

Touché, and I can see that the same was true of Dr. Mario and Daisy.

Still, with the lingering controversy over Ganondorf's moveset, I don't think another cross-franchise clone will go over well.

That being said, we are brought back to the topic of bringing everyone back and as identical as possible: Ganondorf being a Falcon's clone was a "this or nothing" situation (although due to time constraints), and now he is stuck with this moveset for ever and ever, bar some small alterations. So in some cases, being a clone/Echo can be more harmful than being nothing on the long term.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

But then we something like Dark Pit, who is like if Octoling got in Smash and they ended up having the same exact moveset as Inkling.

Which is technically not an innaccurate way to represent either Dark Pit or Octoling.

It's boring because there's so much they could do and the different personalities and backgrounds could translate to a different way of thinking when fighting, but it's still technically fitting with the source material.

Though with that said, with how massive Splatoon as become, there's absolutely no way Octoling will be low priority enough to fall into alt/echo status.

 

[fogbadge]

why don't we have the octolings be like lucas then? a handful of similar moves but mostly different

 

[Quillion]

why don't we have the octolings be like lucas then? a handful of similar moves but mostly different

That could work, but they could also go for the untapped "shared normals, different specials" approach to clone design.

Seriously, I'm still annoyed that all of the clones thus far have taken these three general approaches:

• "Shared normals AND specials"
• "Shared specials, different normals"
• "Half-and-half normals AND specials"

But no "shared normals, different specials"-type clone yet.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

But no "shared normals, different specials"-type clone yet.

Pyra and Mythra said hello.

 

[Quillion]

Pyra and Mythra said hello.

I'm aware. I just want that philosophy applied to characters that aren't tied by a transform move.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I'm aware. I just want that philosophy applied to characters that aren't tied by a transform move.

Still counts because they're the only transform characters to be clones of each other.

With that said, yeah, it'd be nice to have more of those.

 

[Aligo]

Still counts because they're the only transform characters to be clones of each other.

With that said, yeah, it'd be nice to have more of those.

Would the miis count?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Would the miis count?

Counting the Miis would be opening a massive can of worms since they don't copy a specific character but are instead Frankensteins of multiple people along with a few unique tricks.

And that could lead to crazy takes like Fox being a Link clone because same nair.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Hopefully this isn't actually an unpopular opinion, but time to test the waters.

breathe in

"HOES MAD" was never a funny meme. No, not even the first time. With Hero, it was an entirely preemptive and obnoxious response from the Dragon Quest Defense Squad™ on Twitter, and every time after it just got more annoying (except maybe with Terry since there was some actual variation to the joke with the whole "WHINING FOOLS BE GONE" thing).

That could work, but they could also go for the untapped "shared normals, different specials" approach to clone design.

Seriously, I'm still annoyed that all of the clones thus far have taken these three general approaches:

• "Shared normals AND specials"
• "Shared specials, different normals"
• "Half-and-half normals AND specials"

But no "shared normals, different specials"-type clone yet.

Dixie Kong could've literally been exactly this and it would have been perfect.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Hopefully this isn't actually an unpopular opinion, but time to test the waters.

breathe in

"HOES MAD" was never a funny meme. No, not even the first time. With Hero, it was an entirely preemptive and obnoxious response from the Dragon Quest Defense Squad™ on Twitter, and every time after it just got more annoying (except maybe with Terry since there was some actual variation to the joke with the whole "WHINING FOOLS BE GONE" thing).

Dixie Kong could've literally been exactly this and it would have been perfect.

Your take might not be unpopular, but my take is:

"HOES MAD" was perfectly justified with Byleth. They got WAY too much hate just because of general FE disdain.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Hoes Mad was amusing for about a week and then became overused, like many memes are prone to be.

This isn't an unpopular opinion per say, but there is a reason Byleth stands out as one of the worst executions of a fighter reveal circa the 4/Ultimate era, and fan expectations were only a part of it. I know people with point to the expectations of Dante or the general belief that people were merely upset that it wasn't a prominent third party character (and especially because this was an FE figure), but that only scratches the surface of how badly the whole enterprise was done.

The trailer quite frankly was underwhelming, with the fighter being given away early on and even the delivery of the "too many swordfighters" joke not landing all that well. Pair that with a mystery presentation that had little to offer those that weren't fans of Fire Emblem (no other fighter reveals, nothing close to specific dates for the second pass, and the whole thing not being presented in the context of Direct that showed off other big news) and it seemed like an event designed to maximize the dislike of the reveal.

Nothing justifies harassment or toxicity by fans, but I'm also of the opinion that if the placement of Byleth and Terry had been reversed (with the former shown off the in Sept 2019 Direct and the latter here) then I think you have a lot less overall salt to begin with because the perfect storm of elements that served to enhance the disappointment of another FE character would not be there.

Time will be (and has been) kind to Byleth which is good given their tremendous quality as a fighter. In my estimation It will take a big longer for "Sakurai Presents: Byleth" to get the same if it happens at all.

 

[Aligo]

Your take might not be unpopular, but my take is:

"HOES MAD" was perfectly justified with Byleth. They got WAY too much hate just because of general FE disdain.

To be fair, as far as being you know, an actual character, byleth is... Quite lacking to say the least. Many people would have preferred the house leaders.

Be honest with yourself, would people like byleth without Leo? Or would they rot in obscurity like Banjo?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

To be fair, as far as being you know, an actual character, byleth is... Quite lacking to say the least. Many people would have preferred the house leaders.

But that wouldn't have changed the people's reaction to the reveal at all.

The only change would've been which character that FE haters would've directed their toxic behavior towards.

 

[Aligo]

But that wouldn't have changed the people's reaction to the reveal at all.

The only change would've been which character that FE haters would've directed their toxic behavior towards.

I think it would have dampened it somewhat, since none of the house leaders use a sword.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I think it would have dampened it somewhat, since none of the house leaders use a sword.

Considering people were expecting a demon hunter with a sword and being hyped about it, I really don't think the weapon used would've changed much.

If anything, they'd say the axe or lance is "basically just a sword" just because it's Fire Emblem and they need more reasons to bash Fire Emblem.

As for Claude's bow........maybe that one could've passed.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Considering people were expecting a demon hunter with a sword and being hyped about it, I really don't think the weapon used would've changed much.

If anything, they'd say the axe or lance is "basically just a sword" just because it's Fire Emblem and they need more reasons to bash Fire Emblem.

As for Claude's bow........maybe that one could've passed.

Nah, they'd probably call it a throwing sword or something...

 

[Aligo]

Considering people were expecting a demon hunter with a sword and being hyped about it, I really don't think the weapon used would've changed much.

If anything, they'd say the axe or lance is "basically just a sword" just because it's Fire Emblem and they need more reasons to bash Fire Emblem.

As for Claude's bow........maybe that one could've passed.

It also helps that they don't have blue hair like byleth does.

Also if they made edelgard an actual armour knight that would go pretty far from any fire emblem character that was in the game at the time. Doubly so if they included the wyvern with Claude.

I think it would have helped if they focused on byleths own specialities more, such as brawling and magic, to reduce the sword to just one or two moves, further differentiating them

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Nah, they'd probably call it a throwing sword or something...

Everything is a sword if you think hard enough

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I thought Hoes Mad was pretty funny.

My favorite variation was "Hoes Fatally Furious" with Terry's reveal.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Your take might not be unpopular, but my take is:

"HOES MAD" was perfectly justified with Byleth. They got WAY too much hate just because of general FE disdain.

I'll at least give the Byleth stans credit for sending that awful meme to the grave. Good on them for that one, seriously.

 

[Aligo]

I will never understand why they don't have event exclusive options in rulesets. So you could have 3 tiny Ridleys Vs a giant metal jigglypuff, for instance. It would allso really help with creating custom game modes, this increasing the longevity of the game.

 

[Quillion]

People who complain about Ganondorf's moveset have a warped view of Ganon (as both demon and human).

He's seen as an all-powerful sorcerer with a variety of super flashy magic abilities like some kind of JRPG villain. This is somewhat understandable considering the Zelda series is somewhat RPG-adjacent.

But in reality, Ganon isn't like that. Yes, he's a magic wielder, but he doesn't do things like Supernova or Forsaken in Final Fantasy. His combat magic is always very simplistic, just summoning bats and phantoms or throwing simple energy balls. The closest he's come to JRPG flashy variety of magic is actually BotW, one of the most recent Zelda releases.

On that note, I guess Ganondorf could have one projectile to replace Warlock Punch, but then again, that's just as much of a counter-design idea as Donkey Kong getting a barrel throw. Just because a character has a projectile in canon doesn't mean they need one in Smash.

 

[Aligo]

A small, but very meaningful option they could add to the CSS is an option to change the voice of a given character if they have multiple VAs or different languages. Then people could have their Japan marth back without messing up the in game text. It could even pave the way to giving bowser and DK their canon sounds as a non-default option.

 

[Lenidem]

People who complain about Ganondorf's moveset have a warped view of Ganon (as both demon and human).

He's seen as an all-powerful sorcerer with a variety of super flashy magic abilities like some kind of JRPG villain. This is somewhat understandable considering the Zelda series is somewhat RPG-adjacent.

But in reality, Ganon isn't like that. Yes, he's a magic wielder, but he doesn't do things like Supernova or Forsaken in Final Fantasy. His combat magic is always very simplistic, just summoning bats and phantoms or throwing simple energy balls. The closest he's come to JRPG flashy variety of magic is actually BotW, one of the most recent Zelda releases.

On that note, I guess Ganondorf could have one projectile to replace Warlock Punch, but then again, that's just as much of a counter-design idea as Donkey Kong getting a barrel throw. Just because a character has a projectile in canon doesn't mean they need one in Smash.

... Again?

In Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf uses his physical strength once and only once: to punch the ground and hinder Link's mobility. Then he flies straight in the air to be out of range and spams energy balls at you. When you manage to get close, he's the one in a disadvantage, and he flies up again as soon as he can. That's all he does. He never try to punch or quick you, he doesn't rely on his brute strength, only on his ability to fly and his energy balls. Even when you meet him as a child, he throws a blast at you.

In Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, Ganondorf fights with swords. Never with his fists (except that one time he slaps Zelda, and it's only a brief cutscene, not the fight itself). And even that is always his last option: he prefers to possess Zelda's body, or, when he has to get close, to transform into different giant monsters.

Making Ganondorf use only punchs and quicks is and has always been an aberration.

On that note, I guess Ganondorf could have one projectile to replace Warlock Punch, but then again, that's just as much of a counter-design idea as Donkey Kong getting a barrel throw. Just because a character has a projectile in canon doesn't mean they need one in Smash.

It's a "counter-design idea" only to the design Smash has artificially created.

 

[Quillion]

In Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf uses his physical strength once and only once: to punch the ground and hinder Link's mobility. Then he flies straight in the air to be out of range and spams energy balls at you. When you manage to get close, he's the one in a disadvantage, and he flies up again as soon as he can. That's all he does. He never try to punch or quick you, he doesn't rely on his brute strength, only on his ability to fly and his energy balls. Even when you meet him as a child, he throws a blast at you.

In Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, Ganondorf fights with swords. Never with his fists (except that one time he slaps Zelda, and it's only a brief cutscene, not the fight itself). And even that is always his last option: he prefers to possess Zelda's body, or, when he has to get close, to transform into different giant monsters.

Making Ganondorf use only punchs and quicks is and has always been an aberration.

You're not arguing against my point.

I'm arguing that yes, Ganon is a sorcerer, yes he prefers using bladed weapons.

But his variety is combat magic is consistently low. He only has one type of projectile per boss fight for the most part.
----
On a bit of a tangent, if Ganon or Ganondorf was in Melee with a more "faithful" moveset, however that would be, it would be just as outdated as his current Smash portrayal.

With how much Ganon diverges from every last appearance, there's no way to make a coherent well-made moveset using all of those elements. Not even using his appearances up to OoT at that.

 

[Lenidem]

You're not arguing against my point.

Your post starts with this:

People who complain about Ganondorf's moveset have a warped view of Ganon (as both demon and human).

I just explained why it's wrong. You can complain about Ganondorf's moveset with a correct understanding of the character.

I'm arguing that yes, Ganon is a sorcerer, yes he prefers using bladed weapons.

But his variety is combat magic is consistently low. He only has one type of projectile per boss fight for the most part.

One projectile per boss fight is still way more than his anecdotical punches and quicks.

On a bit of a tangent, if Ganon or Ganondorf was in Melee with a more "faithful" moveset, however that would be, it would be just as outdated as his current Smash portrayal.

With how much Ganon diverges from every last appearance, there's no way to make a coherent well-made moveset using all of those elements. Not even using his appearances up to OoT at that.

True, but I prefer a moveset referencing an old game than a moveset representing nothing.

 

[Perkilator]

I think it would be cool if Ganondorf used some of his canon moves…but also borrowed moves from M. Bison under a different name.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I think it would be cool if Ganondorf used some of his canon moves…but also borrowed moves from M. Bison under a different name.

I never knew I needed Ganondorf doing a Psycho Crusher until now.