Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[fogbadge]

Wow, thats at least 6! Will one them use a train.

you’re sarcasm needs work

 

[Aligo]

you’re sarcasm needs work

My bad. But in all seriousness, what extra links were you thinking of? I just asked about the train as it is actually part of one of toon links movesets in hyrule warriors.

 

[fogbadge]

My bad. But in all seriousness, what extra links were you thinking of? I just asked about the train as it is actually part of one of toon links movesets in hyrule warriors.

classic link, wolf link, bunny link, masked link (deku, goron, zora), totem link, four sword link, engineer link, link & epona, link & loftwing, linkle, for a start

 

[Quillion]

I still unironically want TP or OoT Link as an echo of BotW Link reusing the Smash 4 models and animations (cleaned up of course) assuming the latter sticks around.

Mega Man ruined the general attitude towards moveset design.

Before Smash 4, players were happy with a balance between visual coherence, picking out the best parts from a canonical skillset, and boons/drawback balanced design.

Since Smash 4, any moveset where a single normal or special isn't a canonical reference is considered trash moveset design.

 

[fogbadge]

Since Smash 4, any moveset where a single normal or special isn't a canonical reference is considered trash moveset design.

really? they must be fuming

 

[Quillion]

really? they must be fuming

When redesigning Samus's moveset is a fairly popular opinion judging by the views on this video, and FazDude considers Samus's moveset being fine an unpopular opinion despite it having four staple iconic Metroid abilities as specials, yeah there's something wrong with how moveset design is viewed by the audience since Smash 4.

 

[FazDude]

Mega Man ruined the general attitude towards moveset design.

Before Smash 4, players were happy with a balance between visual coherence, picking out the best parts from a canonical skillset, and boons/drawback balanced design.

Since Smash 4, any moveset where a single normal or special isn't a canonical reference is considered trash moveset design.

The part that upsets me the most about this is that it was sparked by a moveset that was made into actual dogwater thanks to canonical references.

 

[Quillion]

The part that upsets me the most about this is that it was sparked by a moveset that was made into actual dogwater thanks to canonical references.

Huh, I thought I was the only one who thought Mega Man was unenjoyable to play as because of a clutter of canonical references.

I was actually pretty hyped for it at first, but playing as Mega Man in both Smash 4 and Ultimate quickly turned it into a monkey's paw for me.

 

[FazDude]

My main gripe is how they took way too much inspiration from the NES games. Like, yeah, most of Mega Man's most popular titles are from the NES, so obviously you're going to reference the Robot Master weapons from them. That said, Mega Man is pretty much his NES self translated quite liberally - His physics are directly inspired by those games, for crying out loud. Not only that, the purposeful details of his expressions and animations being choppy and minimalistic makes him feel rather uncanny, and not in a good way.

I'm not a huge Mega Man fan, so I'm probably not the guy to get into how I'd fix him. Regardless, his moveset currently sums up every last problem I have with the "references first" philosophy when it comes to moveset design, moreso than pretty much any Smash 4/Ultimate newcomer.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

MegaMan in some ways plays well, but yeah, he has too much that doesn't mesh well. Cool ideas, not so great execution. I don't consider the concept a problem, though. Just that it shows you need to take more liberties first. Thankfully nobody else actually suffers in this way, even when they're heavily canonical.

Steve/Alex play wonderfully, if not very overpowered, but are faithful and have a coherent moveset. Hero has an excellent moveset that at most is overpowered. Its sole issue is how the menus can get confusing due to you requiring to know them in any give language in tournaments depending where you go.

 

[Janx_uwu]

I think if Hero had a more consistent selection for Down B I'd enjoy fighting against him more.

 

[Quillion]

MegaMan in some ways plays well, but yeah, he has too much that doesn't mesh well. Cool ideas, not so great execution. I don't consider the concept a problem, though. Just that it shows you need to take more liberties first. Thankfully nobody else actually suffers in this way, even when they're heavily canonical.

Steve/Alex play wonderfully, if not very overpowered, but are faithful and have a coherent moveset. Hero has an excellent moveset that at most is overpowered. Its sole issue is how the menus can get confusing due to you requiring to know them in any give language in tournaments depending where you go.

I don't know... I'm just so tired of a lot of the newer characters having a weird character-specific meter mechanic among other things. I find that just as bad as Mega Man's cluttered moveset design.

 

[Ze Diglett]

When redesigning Samus's moveset is a fairly popular opinion judging by the views on this video, and FazDude considers Samus's moveset being fine an unpopular opinion despite it having four staple iconic Metroid abilities as specials, yeah there's something wrong with how moveset design is viewed by the audience since Smash 4.

Personally, my rationale for wanting a Samus rework lies in making her more interactive and less lame to fight against, not being more accurate to the source material. People who moan about how Samus's moveset is bad because she doesn't use the Ice Beam or whatever are completely missing the point and I hate that they give the very idea of a Samus rework a bad rap.

 

[Quillion]

Personally, my rationale for wanting a Samus rework lies in making her more interactive and less lame to fight against, not being more accurate to the source material. People who moan about how Samus's moveset is bad because she doesn't use the Ice Beam or whatever are completely missing the point and I hate that they give the very idea of a Samus rework a bad rap.

I feel like making a zoner not lame to fight against would require changes to the core gameplay, which I definitely am open to.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I feel like making a zoner not lame to fight against would require changes to the core gameplay, which I definitely am open to.

Perhaps, but Samus's kit definitely encourages turtling on a base level, which isn't very fun to fight against even if you technically can play the character aggressively.

 

[Quillion]

Perhaps, but Samus's kit definitely encourages turtling on a base level, which isn't very fun to fight against even if you technically can play the character aggressively.

What does aggressive zoning look like?

 

[Ze Diglett]

What does aggressive zoning look like?

In the context of Samus specifically, I wouldn't know since I don't play her and only have experience fighting the campy ones. Generally speaking, "aggressive zoning" would be using your character's ranged tools to get in and put them in a mixup vortex, rather than just hanging back waiting for them to do something stupid you can punish. (Think how Young Link uses his arrows, basically; he doesn't camp with them, he uses them to pepper the opponent with mid-range spam and open them up from a safe distance.) Modern fighting game devs have sort of molded the definition of a zoner into "mid-range fighter with good projectiles and/or ranged normals", and that can entail aggressive or defensive gameplay depending on the player and how the character themselves is designed.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't know... I'm just so tired of a lot of the newer characters having a weird character-specific meter mechanic among other things. I find that just as bad as Mega Man's cluttered moveset design.

But they're not? MegaMan has a moveset that doesn't flow well, while the rest actually flow extremely well. Even the most oddball moveset with Villager and Isabelle work rather well. At most, maybe a move or two or reference could be changed, but it feels like what they are, characters who use tons of items and weapon-like items from their home series to battle.

I don't see anyone who is that overcomplicated or awkward in that regard. Even Kazuya, who you think would be, is actually very competent in how it works. You're confusing "tons of gimmicky moves" with "doesn't mesh well". These are not synonyms. Many movesets can poorly function regardless of whether they have a gimmicky moveset or just a thematic one. MegaMan's honestly the only one that doesn't really function well for what its fun purpose is. Yet... the other ones do function pretty well. Jigglypuff functioned well, being a glass cannon with a joke ability to auto-die, yet was never supposed to be bad to use entirely. Pichu properly is one of the worst characters and was designed that way.

Some do have issues, like Ganondorf in Ultimate/For, due to the slow speed being a detriment to the character. He was originally decently fast, though. Which got fixed in Ultimate.

I legit don't know what movesets seem to not function very well outside of MegaMan, who is actually pretty awkward. I can get why some might be turned off by having too many moves, but that has nothing to do with functioning well.

 

[Quillion]

In the context of Samus specifically, I wouldn't know since I don't play her and only have experience fighting the campy ones. Generally speaking, "aggressive zoning" would be using your character's ranged tools to get in and put them in a mixup vortex, rather than just hanging back waiting for them to do something stupid you can punish. (Think how Young Link uses his arrows, basically; he doesn't camp with them, he uses them to pepper the opponent with mid-range spam and open them up from a safe distance.) Modern fighting game devs have sort of molded the definition of a zoner into "mid-range fighter with good projectiles and/or ranged normals", and that can entail aggressive or defensive gameplay depending on how the player and how the character themselves is designed.

I suppose in that vein Samus's Charge Shot could be her actual Ice Beam combined with Charge Beam.

I've been thinking that ice in general should be reworked so that a target can be frozen and immobilized either by pelting with weak ice attacks or a single strong ice attack.

Would give Samus at least the choice between sending out a strong ice beam or a bunch of weak ice beams up close. Then they can give her fire explosions ice properties too.

But they're not? MegaMan has a moveset that doesn't flow well, while the rest actually flow extremely well. Even the most oddball moveset with Villager and Isabelle work rather well. At most, maybe a move or two or reference could be changed, but it feels like what they are, characters who use tons of items and weapon-like items from their home series to battle.

I don't see anyone who is that overcomplicated or awkward in that regard. Even Kazuya, who you think would be, is actually very competent in how it works. You're confusing "tons of gimmicky moves" with "doesn't mesh well". These are not synonyms. Many movesets can poorly function regardless of whether they have a gimmicky moveset or just a thematic one. MegaMan's honestly the only one that doesn't really function well for what its fun purpose is. Yet... the other ones do function pretty well. Jigglypuff functioned well, being a glass cannon with a joke ability to auto-die, yet was never supposed to be bad to use entirely. Pichu properly is one of the worst characters and was designed that way.

Some do have issues, like Ganondorf in Ultimate/For, due to the slow speed being a detriment to the character. He was originally decently fast, though. Which got fixed in Ultimate.

I legit don't know what movesets seem to not function very well outside of MegaMan, who is actually pretty awkward. I can get why some might be turned off by having too many moves, but that has nothing to do with functioning well.

Functioning well is subjective enough that I won't get into that. I have my own opinions on flowing well too, but I won't get into that either.

It's just that Smash was built on the idea of intuitive pick-up-and-play rather than knowing all the various commands for normals, specials, and supers plus a whole bunch of other mechanics like meter management, tag-ins, counters, proximity that changes normals and what have you.

Now with Smash 4-and-on, in addition to characters with cluttered, incoherent movesets (and I would include Villager in that), we do have a whole bunch of mechanics to learn, just at a character-specific level. Not all characters are like this admittedly, but it's enough to frustrate me and drive me towards the older characters when I experienced a lot of joy hopping from character to character in both Melee and Brawl (and 64 much later on).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Functioning well is subjective enough that I won't get into that. I have my own opinions on flowing well too, but I won't get into that either.

It's just that Smash was built on the idea of intuitive pick-up-and-play rather than knowing all the various commands for normals, specials, and supers plus a whole bunch of other mechanics like meter management, tag-ins, counters, proximity that changes normals and what have you.

Now with Smash 4-and-on, in addition to characters with cluttered, incoherent movesets (and I would include Villager in that), we do have a whole bunch of mechanics to learn, just at a character-specific level. Not all characters are like this admittedly, but it's enough to frustrate me and drive me towards the older characters when I experienced a lot of joy hopping from character to character in both Melee and Brawl (and 64 much later on).

The thing is? Besides MegaMan, they're fairly easy to pick up. You just do better with their gimmick if you are willing to use more traditional game mechanics. Villager isn't honestly confusing in the same way MegaMan is. They're really easy to use, just like Isabelle is. Hero is even less confusing, since at most you need to memorize how a move or two works..

But I get what you mean better now. They're not overly gimmicky so much as less about pick-up and play. Yeah, I agree the traditional fighting characters are kind of difficult to work with. Wii Fit Trainer, however, was the only character I ever found legitimately awkward. The rest seemed pretty easy to work with, whether you go for their bigger mechanics or not. Also, Banjo & Kazooie nor Pyra/Mythra are remotely gimmicky and have very simplified movesets among the Ultimate newcomers.

 

[Quillion]

The thing is? Besides MegaMan, they're fairly easy to pick up. You just do better with their gimmick if you are willing to use more traditional game mechanics. Villager isn't honestly confusing in the same way MegaMan is. They're really easy to use, just like Isabelle is. Hero is even less confusing, since at most you need to memorize how a move or two works..

But I get what you mean better now. They're not overly gimmicky so much as less about pick-up and play. Yeah, I agree the traditional fighting characters are kind of difficult to work with. Wii Fit Trainer, however, was the only character I ever found legitimately awkward. The rest seemed pretty easy to work with, whether you go for their bigger mechanics or not. Also, Banjo & Kazooie nor Pyra/Mythra are remotely gimmicky and have very simplified movesets among the Ultimate newcomers.

We all have our opinions. I'm just not happy with a good portion of the Smash 4-on newcomers because of this noticeable sacrifice in intuitive moveset design for the sake of recreating home game mechanics where possible. There's thankfully those movesets like Byleth, Incineroar, and yes Pythra and Banjo that hearken back to the Melee/Brawl days, but enough characters have proven gimmicky enough that I'm frustrated with moveset design decisions now. I'll just keep being vocal about it.

And my inciting complaint with Mega Man for the current discussion wasn't that I find it awkward (though I agree). It's how he changed the general attitude towards moveset design; the general audience's attitude if you will.

It's how he's held as a model of great moveset design and other (mainly 64-Brawl characters) are being collectively crapped on because they're not like Mega Man. And all because he's hyper-loaded with canonical references.

Seriously, I've seen people want MARIO reworked to be full of power-up moves because he needs to be like Mega Man.

 

[fogbadge]

When redesigning Samus's moveset is a fairly popular opinion judging by the views on this video, and FazDude considers Samus's moveset being fine an unpopular opinion despite it having four staple iconic Metroid abilities as specials, yeah there's something wrong with how moveset design is viewed by the audience since Smash 4.

i was thinking of incineroar and byleth. the former who has a completely made up move and the latter who has weapons he can't canonically use. if people care about canon move sets then those two must be very upsetting

 

[Quillion]

i was thinking of incineroar and byleth. the former who has a completely made up move and the latter who has weapons he can't canonically use. if people care about canon move sets then those two must be very upsetting

Again, it's not all of them, but enough to make me wary of recent moveset designs.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

the latter who has weapons he can't canonically use.

That's just objectively wrong and you'd know why if you actually played Three Houses.

I'll admit that Byleth having all three at the same time is impossible but since anyone can wield any weapon under most classes, it's not crazy to assume someone made Byleth use Areadbhar in an Azure Moon playthrough.

the former who has a completely made up move

A made-up move that is completely in-character for Incineraor to do if it were an actual thing, given his Heel wrestler theme and all.

 

[fogbadge]

That's just objectively wrong and you'd know why if you actually played Three Houses.

I'll admit that Byleth having all three at the same time is impossible but since anyone can wield any weapon under most classes, it's not crazy to assume someone made Byleth use Areadbhar in an Azure Moon playthrough.

if you had played three houses then you’d know that canonically you can’t use a hero’s relic without the corresponding crest. byleth can only can only use the sword of the creator

A made-up move that is completely in-character for Incineraor to do if it were an actual thing, given his Heel wrestler theme and all.

It’s still not a move he can use within his canon

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

if you had played three houses then you’d know that canonically you can’t use a hero’s relic without the corresponding crest. byleth can only can only use the sword of the creator

You're getting mixed up with the unique combat arts those relic provide.

Any character can use the Relics, but...

• Those without a Crest get recoil damage using them (in gameplay) or become a Demonic Beast (in lore...and if you're Miklan :V)
• Those with a non-matching Crest get no recoil but no Combat Art
• Those with a matching Crest get all the benefits

The only exception is the Sword of the Creator, where Byleth gets exclusive rights to Ruptured Heaven since their heart has the Crest Stone powering the Relic, which is why Edelgard can't use it (is that still a spoiler in 2022?)

It’s still not a move he can use within his canon

Which is fair enough.

 

[fogbadge]

You're getting mixed up with the unique combat arts those relic provide.

Any character can use the Relics, but...

• Those without a Crest get recoil damage using them (in gameplay) or become a Demonic Beast (in lore...and if you're Miklan :V)
• Those with a non-matching Crest get no recoil but no Combat Art
• Those with a matching Crest get all the benefits

The only exception is the Sword of the Creator, where Byleth gets exclusive rights to Ruptured Heaven since their heart has the Crest Stone powering the Relic, which is why Edelgard can't use it (is that still a spoiler in 2022?)

yeah but those aren’t canon to the story. characters are always using things they can’t have in the canon in their games

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

yeah but those aren’t canon to the story

Claude literally hands out Failnaught in Azure Moon for anyone to use.

It's not 100% canon but it's not the biggest stretch either.

 

[fogbadge]

Claude literally hands out Failnaught in Azure Moon for anyone to use.

It's not 100% canon but it's not the biggest stretch either.

yes he does. I always put it to game writers not thinking it through

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

yes he does. I always put it to game writers not thinking it through

Even if it's them not thinking it through, that's still canon.

But either way, gotta love how your point was them wielding the weapons being non-canon rather than the actual attacks themselves, as the only things in Byleth's entire moveset that are canon to them are rapid jab (kinda looks like Ruptured Heaven) and dash attack (one of the basic sword attack animations)

Everything else is completely made up.

 

[fogbadge]

Even if it's them not thinking it through, that's still canon.

But either way, gotta love how your point was them wielding the weapons being non-canon rather than the actual attacks themselves, as the only things in Byleth's entire moveset that are canon to them are rapid jab (kinda looks like Ruptured Heaven) and dash attack (one of the basic sword attack animations)

Everything else is completely made up.

the point still stands: people getting caught up is using canon moves is pointless as they're still making things up, there is often a disconnect between story canon and gameplay and of course the fact that a lot of the series in smash have a very loose canon

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

the point still stands: people getting caught up is using canon moves is pointless as they're still making things up, there is often a disconnect between story canon and gameplay and of course the fact that a lot of the series in smash have a very loose canon

My take on the moveset designs is that not everything needs to be a reference as long as it fits either the intended design of the moveset (Byleth having the multiple weapons) or the characters (most of Joker's moves are completely original but the overall style they bring just works for him)

Additionally, references for the sake of references is not a good thing; if the reference doesn't match the intended design, it shouldn't be in the moveset no matter how iconic it is. Ideally, a proper design should revolve around the most iconic thing to avoid leaving it out but not every idea can feasably work.

Also, only Game & Watch, FGC characters and people from hack-and-slash games like Bayonetta can truly get away with every move being a reference while still creating a moveset that makes sense.

 

[Demon Dragon]

Just look at Captain Falcon. His moveset was literally completely original since in his home series, he's literally never seen out of his vehicle except for some tie-in comics.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Its a genuine pity that so many Smash 4 specific ideas won't likely come back because so many of them had merit and were simply undermined by dubious execution. Smash Tour should have played like Mario Party rather than the simultaneous mess it was, its version of Classic mode had potential for popularity if it had been called something else, custom moves were a blast to experiment with (just awful to unlock), and Master/Crazy options for Special Orders actually worked as enjoyable ways to unlock in game elements. Smash Run rightly gets the focus as a worthwhile mode to return, but so many others fall into the same category.

 

[Quillion]

Its a genuine pity that so many Smash 4 specific ideas won't likely come back because so many of them had merit and were simply undermined by dubious execution. Smash Tour should have played like Mario Party rather than the simultaneous mess it was, its version of Classic mode had potential for popularity if it had been called something else, custom moves were a blast to experiment with (just awful to unlock), and Master/Crazy options for Special Orders actually worked as enjoyable ways to unlock in game elements. Smash Run rightly gets the focus as a worthwhile mode to return, but so many others fall into the same category.

I can say the same for both Melee and Brawl's Adventure Modes. Melee's feels very incomplete and more like a fixed Classic Mode with some tacked-on platforming stages, and Brawl's wastes a good crossover premise on a boring neutral setting and much of the enemies are tedious to fight.

 

[Aligo]

If they wanted to do an updated adventure mode I think the best course of action would be to create 1 level for each viable series, including a subspace level, then have each character play a selection of those levels, a bit like classic mode in ultimate. Playing as random would also give a random selection of levels. This allows for a varied reference filled single player without the need for cutscenes.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

Bring back break the targets, and I mean real break the targets not the **** that was in 3DS. Do it Brawl-style with set levels per difficulty setting if you need to, there's obviously way too many characters to give them each their own at this point. On that same token, Board the Platforms and Race to the Finish would've been nice.

World of Light was fun and I liked seeing all the different obscure characters (OSU!) but it was a weird mashup of an adventure mode and event mode without really satisfying my want for either. Why are they so allergic to doing something like Melee Adventure? I love Subspace Emissary don't get me wrong, but it's bogged down by all the ****ty generic areas. I just want to see Nintendo characters in other Nintendo settings fighting actual Nintendo mooks!

 

[Quillion]

Why are they so allergic to doing something like Melee Adventure?

Like I said earlier, Melee Adventure feels like a glorified Classic mode with platforming stages tacked on. It falls short of its own potential too.

 

[Aligo]

Like I said earlier, Melee Adventure feels like a glorified Classic mode with platforming stages tacked on. It falls short of its own potential too.

That is why I think having more stages than a single runs worth (viable series plus SSE one) then using a select number each time is the best approach. It more varied than melee adventure mode, has better representation than SSE and isn't a total slog like world of light.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Bring back break the targets, and I mean real break the targets not the **** that was in 3DS. Do it Brawl-style with set levels per difficulty setting if you need to, there's obviously way too many characters to give them each their own at this point. On that same token, Board the Platforms and Race to the Finish would've been nice.

To be fair, the "Angry Birds Edition" wasn't that popular.

That said, I found it neat for the purpose of grinding customs and trophies. Using that for grinding Spirits would've been actually nice, as they do get tedious to get outside of actual events(Adventure Mode, the DLC events) since they're entirely random. The lack of mini-games does suuuuck.

So both would've been good. A normal one, and one that makes it easier to grind rng stuff.