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Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

jamesster445

Smash Lord
Joined
May 7, 2015
Messages
1,065
Most of the fighter designs in Smash are fine, yes even the ones from 64. Y'all are too hung up on references and/or them being low tier, to realize that the actual core of their characters hold up.

Also you all also need to stop asking for character overhauls. Judging from the reactions most of you had to Terry and especially Kazuya more than prove to me that most of you do NOT play other fighting games at all. So most of you don't realize that the "character overhauls" you mentioned rarely ever worked out. Because you're asking people to throw away years of legacy skill. And for someone who didn't even play the character in the first place? Sakurai is a fighting game fan and understands this very well. Harada learned this the hard way with Jin in Tekken 4, that's why we have Devil Jin in Tekken 5. In my 30 years of existence and enjoying fighting games, there has been ONE character in the entire Fighting game genre that had a moveset overhaul that worked well enough that almost no one complained about the change (it's Charlie Nash from Street Fighter). And there are a LOT of factors as to why that worked.
 
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Lenidem

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
886
Most of the fighter designs in Smash are fine, yes even the ones from 64. Y'all are too hung up on references and/or them being low tier, to realize that the actual core of their characters hold up.

Also you all also need to stop asking for character overhauls. Judging from the reactions most of you had to Terry and especially Kazuya more than prove to me that most of you do NOT play other fighting games at all. So most of you don't realize that the "character overhauls" you mentioned rarely ever worked out. Because you're asking people to throw away years of legacy skill. And for someone who didn't even play the character in the first place? Sakurai is a fighting game fan and understands this very well. Harada learned this the hard way with Jin in Tekken 4, that's why we have Devil Jin in Tekken 5. In my 30 years of existence and enjoying fighting games, there has been ONE character in the entire Fighting game genre that had a moveset overhaul that worked well enough that almost no one complained about the change (it's Charlie Nash from Street Fighter). And there are a LOT of factors as to why that worked.
You say it yourself: most Smash players don't play other fighting games. They play for different reasons and expect different stuff. So what would not work for, say, Tekken players could very well please most Smash players.
 

crazybenjamin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
345
Switch FC
SW 2794 0568 0108
no clones (skins exist for this)
During my 2+ years on both this site and GameFAQs, I have still yet to hear a proper justification for why fans of Character A should be made to settle for "Character B wearing Character A's skin as a suit," when implementing the real deal barely requires any extra effort at all.
 

Lenidem

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
886
During my 2+ years on both this site and GameFAQs, I have still yet to hear a proper justification for why fans of Character A should be made to settle for "Character B wearing Character A's skin as a suit," when implementing the real deal barely requires any extra effort at all.
I guess, one clone doesn't make a big change. It takes, say, 10% of the effort recquiered to create a full character, so it is kind of a good deal indeed. But when you have around ten clones, maybe you'd like to trade them all for a full character. I'm not saying that's what I want, but I can understand this reasoning.
 

jamesster445

Smash Lord
Joined
May 7, 2015
Messages
1,065
You say it yourself: most Smash players don't play other fighting games. They play for different reasons and expect different stuff. So what would not work for, say, Tekken players could very well please most Smash players.
Yes, because Smash fans had suuch a great reaction to Mario getting a new Down B in the form of FLUDD. You know that one water gun that was from the at the time newest 3D Mario game that a lot of people didn't even liked that much... and was never seen again since. Thus making FLUDD the most dated part of his moveset while ironically also being the newest part of his moveset. In other words "The Corrin" of Mario's moveset.

There's a reason Mario doesnt have anything from Galaxy when Smash 4 was being made... they just decided to make a completely different character instead :ultrosalina:.

Updates for the sake of being trendy are going to age the fastest. This applies to characters in general. I mentioned Corrin because they felt dated the second a new FE game came out and Byleth could have a similar problem when the next FE game gets announced (assuming it's better than Three Houses).

Even if they Overhauled the movesets. You're just going to have the same problem in a few years anyway.
 
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Lenidem

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
886
Yes, because Smash fans had suuch a great reaction to Mario getting a new Down B in the form of FLUDD. You know that one water gun that was from the at the time newest 3D Mario game that a lot of people didn't even liked that much... and was never seen again since. Thus making FLUDD the most dated part of his moveset while ironically also being the newest part of his moveset. In other words "The Corrin" of Mario's moveset.

There's a reason Mario doesnt have anything from Galaxy when Smash 4 was being made... they just decided to make a completely different character instead :ultrosalina:.

Updates for the sake of being trendy are going to age the fastest. This applies to characters in general. I mentioned Corrin because they felt dated the second a new FE game came out and Byleth could have a similar problem when the next FE game gets announced (assuming it's better than Three Houses).

Even if they Overhauled the movesets. You're just going to have the same problem in a few years anyway.
Dated movesets and characters is a totally different problem - and I agree that is it a problem indeed - than saying "movesets should never be overhauled". It's a hot take, but I think most players would prefer Mario’s down-b to be changed in each Smash iteration to reflect the latest big Mario game - say, Galaxy in Smash 4 and Odyssey in Ultimate. That way, it would stay fresh. The problem here is precisely that FLUDD is still there, but it cannot be changed because "players don't want changes".
 

Perkilator

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
7,452
Location
San Clemente, CA
I would've liked a bit more enemy variety in Smash Run.
  • Series with enemies that would make sense but don't have enemies:
    • Star Fox
    • Fire Emblem
    • Wario
    • Xenoblade
    • Final Fantasy (though it's not really a problem since Cloud was DLC, but I do still wishe we at least got a Cactuar)
  • Egg Pawns, Motobugs and Buzz Bombers would've made a bit more sense as enemies than the Eggrobo
 

crazybenjamin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
345
Switch FC
SW 2794 0568 0108
I guess, one clone doesn't make a big change. It takes, say, 10% of the effort recquiered to create a full character, so it is kind of a good deal indeed. But when you have around ten clones, maybe you'd like to trade them all for a full character. I'm not saying that's what I want, but I can understand this reasoning.
That reasoning only really works if you're willing to go the whole hog and demand the outright removal of characters like Richter, on the other hand, if Richter is a Simon costume, then he takes up all of the dev time without actually achieving the goal of throwing a bone to those who only care about Richter and don't care about Simon.
 

Lenidem

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
886
That reasoning only really works if you're willing to go the whole hog and demand the outright removal of characters like Richter, on the other hand, if Richter is a Simon costume, then he takes up all of the dev time without actually achieving the goal of throwing a bone to those who only care about Richter and don't care about Simon.
I don't know anything about Castelvania, but isn't their moveset inspired by both characters' games? I remember Sakurai saying something like Simon could very well be considered as Richter's Echo. So it's a special case.

On the other hand, Dr Mario being just a Mario costume would totally make sense (although FLUDD would be a bit weird).

The Starfox crew would have the problem of the different proportions, like Sakurai thought during the development of Smash 64.

So yeah, it could work for some, but not for everyone.

Edit. Besides, Echoes are a particular "clone case", since they take even less development time.
 
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Yamat08

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 11, 2021
Messages
87
During my 2+ years on both this site and GameFAQs, I have still yet to hear a proper justification for why fans of Character A should be made to settle for "Character B wearing Character A's skin as a suit," when implementing the real deal barely requires any extra effort at all.
I can think of one justification: it bloats up the roster. And honestly, I actually did see this as a problem back in Smash4, but that's mainly because of the horribly-implemented usage of the roster in Smash4's BS single-player challenges. Seriously, having even a couple less characters as a result of Lucina and Dark Pit being costumes could've made those "do X with every character" challenges just a slight bit more tolerable (especially that god awful All-Star on Hard difficulty one, though it didn't help that the Hard difficulty deliberately nerfs any and all characters who rely on projectiles). Thankfully, Ultimate, despite almost doubling the roster size, handled it in a way that seems significantly less daunting. Hell, you're not even required to use every character to 100% it, and you could do all but a small handful of challenges without even touching anyone outside of your main. Even the Fighter Spirits can just be bought in the store (though even if that wasn't the case, Classic is worth doing at least once with every character due to the personalized routes.... that, and just NOT being WiiU's Classic Mode). So yeah, it really all comes down to execution, and with the way Ultimate handled things, I don't see bloat as an issue anymore.

Yes, because Smash fans had suuch a great reaction to Mario getting a new Down B in the form of FLUDD. You know that one water gun that was from the at the time newest 3D Mario game that a lot of people didn't even liked that much... and was never seen again since. Thus making FLUDD the most dated part of his moveset while ironically also being the newest part of his moveset. In other words "The Corrin" of Mario's moveset.

There's a reason Mario doesnt have anything from Galaxy when Smash 4 was being made... they just decided to make a completely different character instead :ultrosalina:.

Updates for the sake of being trendy are going to age the fastest. This applies to characters in general. I mentioned Corrin because they felt dated the second a new FE game came out and Byleth could have a similar problem when the next FE game gets announced (assuming it's better than Three Houses).

Even if they Overhauled the movesets. You're just going to have the same problem in a few years anyway.
Oh god, yes! And this is why I can't agree with anyone who suggests that Mario's Final Smash should be replaced by one that has him using Cappy on a T-rex or something more cinematic like that. Yeah, no. The Mario Finale may not be the best Final Smash, but I think it does its job well enough. Just as Mario's meant to be the all-rounder character who's easy to pick up and represents several core concepts of the game, his FS nicely represents the idea of having a huge fighting game special in a rather simply manner by being a powered-up version of his iconic fireball attack. As for Cappy, he's fine where he is making a cameo in Mario's Up-B (though I can't really say I agree with him replacing Mario's Super Mushroom taunt, as that is an instance of something new and trendy replacing something long-standing and iconic, likewise with the loss of the Fire Mario alt).

I would've liked a bit more enemy variety in Smash Run.
  • Series with enemies that would make sense but don't have enemies:
    • Star Fox
    • Fire Emblem
    • Wario
    • Xenoblade
    • Final Fantasy (though it's not really a problem since Cloud was DLC, but I do still wishe we at least got a Cactuar)
  • Egg Pawns, Motobugs and Buzz Bombers would've made a bit more sense as enemies than the Eggrobo
Yeah, they used a LOT of Kid Icarus enemies (and not even series-wide enemies, most of them had only recently been introduced in Uprising). Of course, Sora Ltd. was re-using assets from their own game, but as someone who had yet to play Uprising at the time, I was quite confused as to what the hell several of the enemies appearing in Smash Run were even from (didn't help that the Trophy information in the 3DS version opted to not list titles.... not sure why, especially when it uses up the entire bottom screen just to display the flavor text). At any rate, they at least were using a decent variety of familiar enemies this time around. Though hot take: I actually didn't mind Subspace Emissary having original enemies (granted, they COULD have used some more familiars if Bowser's army could make an appearance, at least Zelda enemies considering Ganondorf also played a major villain role).
 

Laniv

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 20, 2014
Messages
1,430
which ones were you thinking of?
Mostly I was thinking that Link and Zelda ought to have her OoT design again. However, I wouldn't say no to Link's Skyward Sword design.

Other characters I think could benefit from this are Roy, Donkey Kong, the Star Fox cast, and Pit. While we're at it, bring back the Fire Mario color.
 

crazybenjamin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
345
Switch FC
SW 2794 0568 0108
On the other hand, Dr Mario being just a Mario costume would totally make sense (although FLUDD would be a bit weird).
It only really works because Dr Mario isn't really fleshed out as his own character, for the likes of Daisy there's way less of an excuse

"do X with every character"
The clones aren't to blame for that, and once these are out of the equation "bloat" is completely and utterly meaningless. Heck, once these challenges are out of the equation the arguments that people use to argue that the clones are "bloat" could just as easily be used to argue that the Alph alt is "bloat," how come the people who still demand the removal of clones today aren't also demanding the removal of the Alph alt?

and with the way Ultimate handled things, I don't see bloat as an issue anymore.
Then there's no excuse whatsoever for people to still be playing the "bLoAt" card now that Ultimate is a thing.
 

Lenidem

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
886
It only really works because Dr Mario isn't really fleshed out as his own character, for the likes of Daisy there's way less of an excuse
Yeah, and that's a problem I have with Daisy as she is right now: she's in a weird in-between state where she's supposed to be "herself", hence the taunts, iddle animation and victory poses, but at the same time, her moveset is all Peach's to the point that it doesn't make sense : Daisy has no connexion to Toad, she was not in Super Mario Bros. 2 and never picked any turnip nor did she float. It feels so half done that I can understand people who would prefer something else instead. It's kinda similar to Dark Samus: granted, she's more different from Samus than Daisy is from Peach, but she is still too similar compared to what she could be. In her case, I actually prefered her as an assist. She felt more like herself.

Then there's no excuse whatsoever for people to still be playing the "bLoAt" card now that Ultimate is a thing.
If we could stop making people who don't think like us look like *******, that would be nice.
 

Yamat08

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 11, 2021
Messages
87
The clones aren't to blame for that, and once these are out of the equation "bloat" is completely and utterly meaningless. Heck, once these challenges are out of the equation the arguments that people use to argue that the clones are "bloat" could just as easily be used to argue that the Alph alt is "bloat," how come the people who still demand the removal of clones today aren't also demanding the removal of the Alph alt?
Then there's no excuse whatsoever for people to still be playing the "bLoAt" card now that Ultimate is a thing.
Did you start typing up your response before reading my post through to the end?

At any rate, you really make a false equivalency by comparing clones to Alph. I mean, people seem to be fine with having more characters represented through alternate skins. I see nobody complain about the Koopalings or the gender-benders (if anything, the fact that the Fire Emblem characters have two genders is one of the only things I don't see them criticized for), and the only problem people have with Alph is that he isn't an Echo. The thing that people dislike about clones is that they did go the extra mile to make them a "unique" playable character, when there really was little if any reason not to just make them an alternate costume.
 

Laniv

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 20, 2014
Messages
1,430
There are many cool and interesting Wario characters that could make fun fighters in Super Smash Bros. Ashley is not one of those characters.
 

crazybenjamin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
345
Switch FC
SW 2794 0568 0108
she's in a weird in-between state where she's supposed to be "herself", hence the taunts, iddle animation and victory poses, but at the same time, her moveset is all Peach's to the point that it doesn't make sense
And if you consider that to be a problem, you should solve the problem by going forwards, not backwards.

If we could stop making people who don't think like us look like *******, that would be nice.
Yet that didn't stop certain people from treating me as the bad guy just because I dared to defend Chrom's inclusion.

Did you start typing up your response before reading my post through to the end?
I don't see how the rest of your post changes things. Even if you said that you "don't see bloat as an issue anymore," your post can still be construed as defending those who do see it as an issue.

and the only problem people have with Alph is that he isn't an Echo.
Then they should push for him to get his own slot, instead of dragging the clones down to Alph's level. Don't demand that others get paid less, demand that you get paid more.
In addition, if the same people who complain about echoes are "fine with having more characters represented through alternate skins," then that just proves that the clone complaints are founded on a double standard.

The thing that people dislike about clones is that they did go the extra mile to make them a "unique" playable character, when there really was little if any reason not to just make them an alternate costume.
The reason to go the extra mile is to throw a bone to fans of the character. I don't want to play as "Marth wearing Chrom's skin as a suit," I want the real deal. In addition, you don't achieve anything by demoting them to a costume. So the whole "there's little if any reason" argument really only works the other way around.
(This is why me reading the post through to the end wouldn't have made a difference, you're still defending the "reduce clones to alts" mentality either way.)
 
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Lenidem

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
886
And if you consider that to be a problem, you should solve the problem by going forwards, not backwards.


Yet that didn't stop certain people from treating me as the bad guy just because I dared to defend Chrom's inclusion.


I don't see how the rest of your post changes things. Even if you said that you "don't see bloat as an issue anymore," your post can still be construed as defending those who do see it as an issue.


Then they should push for him to get his own slot, instead of dragging the clones down to Alph's level. Don't demand that others get paid less, demand that you get paid more.
In addition, if the same people who complain about echoes are "fine with having more characters represented through alternate skins," then that just proves that the clone complaints are founded on a double standard.


The reason to go the extra mile is to throw a bone to fans of the character. I don't want to play as "Marth wearing Chrom's skin as a suit," I want the real deal. In addition, you don't achieve anything by demoting them to a costume. So the whole "there's little if any reason" argument really only works the other way around.
(This is why me reading the post through to the end wouldn't have made a difference, you're still defending the "reduce clones to alts" mentality either way.)
Oh, I didn't realize "certain people" treated you badly. In this case, you absolutely have to be disrespectful too, of course. That always makes things better!

About Daisy, you're implying that she is "deserving" the ressources needed to develop a full character, which is debatable. Considering that those ressources would be better spent to someone else is a valid point of view - not saying it's mine, but I can understand that.
 

Linkmain-maybe

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 14, 2021
Messages
251
Location
Erdrea
I think that plant gang is a very bad and annoying meme to see, since most of the people who post them aren’t really supportive of plant in smash or even care. Besides, if a streamer ever even says plant or plays plant, the chat is just spamming plant gang for the next 5 minutes. It’s lazy and unfunny.
 

fogbadge

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
15,095
Location
Scotland
I think that plant gang is a very bad and annoying meme to see, since most of the people who post them aren’t really supportive of plant in smash or even care. Besides, if a streamer ever even says plant or plays plant, the chat is just spamming plant gang for the next 5 minutes. It’s lazy and unfunny.
people are still doing that?
 

Pupp135

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 30, 2020
Messages
236
I’ll post a few more for fun:

The prefer the OoT and TP designs of Zelda over her ALttP one (I still like that one though)
I’d choose an area from ALttP as the next LoZ stage
For FE, I’d actually prioritize Chrom over Robin since people wanted the former (I like playing as Robin more than Chrom).
 
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Yamat08

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 11, 2021
Messages
87
Unpopular Opinions:
Some Assist trophies are Trash like Andross.
Chrom should be over Lucina in Smash 4, while Lucina debutes in Ultimate.
But would Lucina even be in demand if Chrom were there first? I mean, even putting aside the Echo factor allowing for easier inclusions, Chrom was able to make it into Ultimate, despite Awakening being quite dated and Smash having two characters from that game already, because he was still highly requested (and in fact, may've been bolstered by Smash4 practically meming his exclusion). Sure, Lucina's a pretty popular character among the Fire Emblem base as well, but I wonder if she would've endured quite as much if Chrom did.
 
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crazybenjamin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
345
Switch FC
SW 2794 0568 0108
Oh, I didn't realize "certain people" treated you badly. In this case, you absolutely have to be disrespectful too, of course. That always makes things better!
Looking back, I might have lashed out harder than I meant to.
But time and time again, the arguments of the "demote echoes to alts" crowd have failed to hold up to scrutiny, how many more chances do you want me to give them? I specifically pointed out that thanks to Ultimate, the argument of "it makes certain challenges unnecessarily tedious" no longer applies, so I don't see a reason to back down from my statement that the "bLoAt" talking point is null and void.

About Daisy, you're implying that she is "deserving" the ressources needed to develop a full character, which is debatable. Considering that those ressources would be better spent to someone else is a valid point of view - not saying it's mine, but I can understand that.
"Daisy doesn't deserve to be fully unique" only proves my point as to why I defend Echo Fighters in the first place: it's a compromise between those who want the character, and those who don't want them.
 

Lenidem

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
886
Looking back, I might have lashed out harder than I meant to.
That happens, especially on the Internet. No big deal. That's just the kind of barbs that irritate readers and can be easily avoided to help keeping the conversation civil.

But time and time again, the arguments of the "demote echoes to alts" crowd have failed to hold up to scrutiny, how many more chances do you want me to give them?
Dividing people between "us" (the good, the clever) and "them" (mean and stupid) is another trap. You might not have heard every "bloat" argument and, who knows, someday you might hear one that you find reasonable.

I specifically pointed out that thanks to Ultimate, the argument of "it makes certain challenges unnecessarily tedious" no longer applies, so I don't see a reason to back down from my statement that the "bLoAt" talking point is null and void.
I agree with the first part (I don't think there are really tedious challenges in Ultimate), not with the second. I develop beneath.


"Daisy doesn't deserve to be fully unique" only proves my point as to why I defend Echo Fighters in the first place: it's a compromise between those who want the character, and those who don't want them.
The thing is, for me at least, this is not a good comprise. Seeing Daisy pull out a Toad, float it the air and pick up turnips instantly breaks the illusion and make me think "this is not Daisy". You could go "forwards", as you say, and make her a semi-clone rather than an Echo, by changing her down-b and neutral-b and removing the floating mechanic. That could work indeed. But you also could remove her Echo status, make her an alt, and with the small amount of time you gain with the iddle-animation, the taunts and the victory poses, make her an assist, for instance - although I'm not sure what kind of assist would work for her. You could also use that time to make an assist of someone else. As cool as Dark Samus is, I know I prefered her when she was an assist, for instance.
 

crazybenjamin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
345
Switch FC
SW 2794 0568 0108
Dividing people between "us" (the good, the clever) and "them" (mean and stupid) is another trap. You might not have heard every "bloat" argument and, who knows, someday you might hear one that you find reasonable.

I agree with the first part (I don't think there are really tedious challenges in Ultimate), not with the second. I develop beneath.
I just can't bring myself to have that level of faith in that crowd. So many of their arguments boil down to "Lucina having only minor gameplay differences is disrespectful to her character, but Alph having no gameplay differences whatsoever is perfectly fine and dandy," and such a stance is inherently contradictory. The reality is that not every idea is created equal, when you tell me that one day I might "hear one that I find reasonable," that comes across as no different from you saying that one day I might hear a reasonable argument to justify, for instance, games getting released in states where they're nearly unplayable due to bugs.

But you also could remove her Echo status, make her an alt
Except that doing so would only further break the illusion and make people think "this is not Daisy." This is what I mean when I say that the "demote echoes to alts" arguments are contradictory. If you had only committed to the idea of a Daisy AT, instead of also suggesting that she become a Peach costume, you'd at least be able to argue that the AT would unambiguously be the real deal. (Also, the "break the illusion" argument only works for clones that outright disrespect the source material, it doesn't explain why people would advocate for other clones to also be reduced to alts)
 

Lenidem

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
886
I just can't bring myself to have that level of faith in that crowd.
It's not about faith. It's a matter of courteousness.

Except that doing so would only further break the illusion and make people think "this is not Daisy." This is what I mean when I say that the "demote echoes to alts" arguments are contradictory. If you had only committed to the idea of a Daisy AT, instead of also suggesting that she become a Peach costume, you'd at least be able to argue that the AT would unambiguously be the real deal. (Also, the "break the illusion" argument only works for clones that outright disrespect the source material, it doesn't explain why people would advocate for other clones to also be reduced to alts)
If the illusion doesn't work anyway, better save time there and use it somewhere else. That's the reasoning. Also a floating dress and picking turnips are obvious references to Super Mario Bros. 2, which was Peach's first playable appareance and where Daisy doesn't apperar, and Toad is closely related to Peach, not to Daisy. So yeah, in my eyes, Daisy's current moveset doesn't fit her character at all.
 

Yitsul

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Messages
293
Location
San Diego
NNID
Yitsul
3DS FC
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  • Sora should not be in smash, I hate disney
  • I'm not happy about Steve either
  • World of Light could've been executed better than being a sprit fight marathon
  • I wanted Event Matches back
  • I don't like the Pokémon Trainer concept, it was better in 4 when everyone stuck to a single moveset. In other words, Charizard should fly solo again
  • A Sony rep like Jak & Daxter would be cool. (I don't see Crash or Spyro as Sony reps since they're no longer PlayStation exclusives)
 

crazybenjamin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
345
Switch FC
SW 2794 0568 0108
It's not about faith. It's a matter of courteousness.
I find it hard to be courteous when these arguments always end up contradicting themselves though. If people are willing to defend the idea of demoting clones to alts, then why should I believe that they truly desire moveset uniqueness, when alts inherently have no gameplay differences whatsoever?

If the illusion doesn't work anyway, better save time there and use it somewhere else. That's the reasoning.
That reasoning can only ever justify cutting Daisy outright, it can't justify reducing her to a Peach costume, since you're still sinking dev time into an illusion that doesn't work.

Also a floating dress and picking turnips are obvious references to Super Mario Bros. 2, which was Peach's first playable appareance and where Daisy doesn't apperar, and Toad is closely related to Peach, not to Daisy. So yeah, in my eyes, Daisy's current moveset doesn't fit her character at all.
And Daisy would still have the floating ability, turnips, and Toad if she was a Peach costume. Again, these things only work as a justification if we're talking about cutting Daisy outright, since if she was a Peach alt there would still be the problem of her using a floating ability/turnips/Toad

In general, it seems like there's a miscommunication here: the mentality that I'm labelling as indefensible is the "demote clones to alts" mentality, while you're providing a defense for the "cut clones outright" mentality.
 
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Lenidem

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
886
I find it hard to be courteous when these arguments always end up contradicting themselves though. If people are willing to defend the idea of demoting clones to alts, then why should I believe that they truly desire moveset uniqueness, when alts inherently have no gameplay differences whatsoever?
"I can't understand a point of view or I disagree with it, so I have to act like the people defending it are utterly stupid" is what I consider a rude behavior, but it seems that we'll never agree on that.


That reasoning can only ever justify cutting Daisy outright, it can't justify reducing her to a Peach costume, since you're still sinking dev time into an illusion that doesn't work.
You would save some time with the taunts, the iddle animation and the victory animations. Granted, that's not much.

In general, it seems like there's a miscommunication here: the mentality that I'm labelling as indefensible is the "demote clones to alts" mentality, while you're providing a defense for the "cut clones outright" mentality.
No, I'm saying that if Daisy was demoted to a Peach alt, some time would be saved that could be used for something else, like an assist trophy.

Again, I'm not saying that I want this. But it does make sense to me. If the Dark Samus assist trophy was back and if she was just a skin of Samus like Blood Falcon is to Falcon, I would be fine with it (although I would like it if the announcer could mention the name, like for the koopalings).
 

chocolatejr9

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 30, 2018
Messages
6,344
Next Smash game should do what Street Fighter 3 did: only the original 8 return, and everybody else is brand new to the series.
 
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