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Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

Yamat08

Smash Apprentice
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Oct 11, 2021
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i would have said so. it only seems to be goldeen in a reference to a very early episode of the anime which most people have forgotten about
The scene itself was pretty stupid. Misty confronts Team Rocket by calling out her Goldeen, which flops around for a few seconds before she calls it back and remarks how Water Pokemon can't fight on land (indicating that she, the supposed Water-type expert, already knew that yet called out the flopping fish anyway). Like, what was the point? Was it there to establish that she has a Pokemon that she doesn't have in the games (which itself would go on to do practically nothing for the 250+ episodes it's in the party)? Or was it the anime's not-so-subtle way of telling the audience "Oh, BTW, fish Pokemon can't just fight anywhere like they can in the games"?
 
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fogbadge

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The scene itself was pretty stupid. Misty confronts Team Rocket by calling out her Goldeen, which flops around for a few seconds before she calls it back and remarks how Water Pokemon can't fight on land (indicating that she, the supposed Water-type expert, already knew that yet called out the flopping fish anyway). Like, what was the point? Was it there to establish that she has a Pokemon that she doesn't have in the games (which itself would go on to do practically nothing for the 250+ episodes it's in the party)? Or was it the anime's not-so-subtle way of telling the audience "Oh, BTW, fish Pokemon can't just fight anywhere like they can in the games"?
ive never really though about it. i just thought of it as a forgettable joke
 

White Frost

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It's probably partially cause Magikarp pretty much evolved half the time it was thrown into the water, so it was far more known as deadly by the time Smash released. Whereas Goldeen was never useful in the anime during it. It's a forgettable joke, but only one proved more useless, and since Smash does take anime references, well.

Not saying Magikarp would be bad, but it'd work best if when it felt into the water it actually turned into Gyarados and attacked. Probably everyone, to get the authentic joke done.
 

fogbadge

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It's probably partially cause Magikarp pretty much evolved half the time it was thrown into the water, so it was far more known as deadly by the time Smash released. Whereas Goldeen was never useful in the anime during it. It's a forgettable joke, but only one proved more useless, and since Smash does take anime references, well.

Not saying Magikarp would be bad, but it'd work best if when it felt into the water it actually turned into Gyarados and attacked. Probably everyone, to get the authentic joke done.
well at that point people would deliberately knock him in. and then the joke of the useless pokemon would be lost on several stages. not a terrible idea for a pokemon though. certain pokemon cant appear on certain stages so youd be as well to have one that only works in the water
 
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White Frost

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well at that point people would deliberately knock him in. and then the joke of the useless pokemon would be lost on several stages. not a terrible idea for a pokemon though. certain pokemon cant appear on certain stages so youd be as well to have one that only works in the water
Well, the joke isn't that Magikarp is useless, it's "useless till it evolves", and in the anime, that happened after someone deliberately knocked it into the water. So it does fit... a different joke. Goldeen works better for the pure joke in comparison.

Having Magikarp also be a Pokemon who only appears in stages with water works, though~
 

fogbadge

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Well, the joke isn't that Magikarp is useless, it's "useless till it evolves", and in the anime, that happened after someone deliberately knocked it into the water. So it does fit... a different joke. Goldeen works better for the pure joke in comparison.

Having Magikarp also be a Pokemon who only appears in stages with water works, though~
in my defence its been a while since i last watched the early stuff and the anime has since moved on to the freakishly strong magikarp bit
 

Iko MattOrr

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Little Mac is and always has been assist trophy material, he does not have enough stuff for a moveset and in fact is one of the most boring characters in the game, if not the; he shouldn't have been promoted to playable fighter.

Assist trophies should not "deconfirm" characters... in fact, there are some characters (even veterans) who would be interesting to have both as assist trophies and as fighters at the same time... the best example is Donkey Kong, who would be cool to have throwing barrels at you as an assist trophy. Just add a switch that disables the assist trophy when at least one player is using that character as a fighter.

Smash should have a more focused artistic/design direction; it's not a matter of third or first party, it's that they should keep the mood of the original game: a funny mascot fighter.
Do you remember that old 64 commercial with Mario, DK, Pikachu and so having a friendly fight in a park? That's what Smash should be. Snake in Brawl was ok because of the WTF factor, but now Smash has completely lost its focus and started feeling like a random mix of unfitting stuff like Mugen. The old Sonic & Sega All Stars Racing did a better job at merging all those drastically different artstyles and universes into one, Smash is not even trying anymore (and it's not just a matter of graphics: characters/series choices and overall game design play a factor in this).

While I do have my set of most wanted characters, I don't really care if the next Smash added nobody and cut the roster in half or less, as long as the game actually feels like a new game and not Smash 4-3.0.

To expand on my previous point, I would like the series to be more about quality over quantity: I prefer if instead of adding more characters, they put a lot of effort in a small amount of them: fully developed skins/costumes instead of just color swaps for all alts, no clones (skins exist for this), character-specific content such as 64 and Melee Board the Platform/Break the Target modes (they are also useful for learning the moves of the characters), one "home stage" for each character, all stages are original and specifically designed for Smash, not based on imported existing models, all stages come with just one or a small set (2 to 5) of songs specifically designed for that specific stage, to highlight the atmosphere of that specific stage not just for fanservice, maybe add actual customizable moves for every character but make each move unique instead of base move + elemental effect, etc...

Aside of the character specific challenges (break the target and board the platform) and Classic Mode, the best modes in the series were 3DS' Smash Run and Melee's Adventure Mode, so I wish they would bring them back in the next Smash. With Melee's Adventure Mode I don't mean a copy of that exact mode with all the same levels, I mean a new Adventure Mode like that, short and highly replayable, based on the game worlds instead of generic environments like Subspace was; maybe even multiple Adventure Modes, themed after different things/games. I couldn't care less of any other mode because they were all boring and I only played them for grinding and 100% completion (subspace sucked too).

I hate travelling stages the way they were done from Brawl onward. The concept is ok, but I don't like how they all feel the same... there's this boring generic platform, and you see the world in the background, but it's so detached that it looks like if they were pictures on a screen rather than you actually being inside the environment... the fact that the platform floats by tilting itself in unrealistic ways as if the platform's and the background world's gravity were unrelated and do not affect each other is one of the most visually bad things in the series and countless stages have it. Ironically, the only stage where this would have made some sense (Mario Galaxy) is instead a static one. As I said, I don't dislike all the travelling stages... some are cool, such as 3D Land and Rainbow Ride; I like them when they are done right.

When they add a new concept to the series, they should fully develop it. When custom moves were added, only Palutena and Miis had actual custom moves, while other characters had the same moves with small elemental alterations instead; when they added the concept of Echo Fighters, they only added a small number of them when there's potential for dozens of them to be made. They added bosses to classic mode, but there are just a few of them and not for every character. So, if a concept is only half developed, scrap it completely instead of putting it in the game in such a pathetic state just for the sake of being able to say "we added this new thing".

Ultimate is a bad game both competitively and casually. Single-player content is lackluster with no replayable value and don't get me started on the terrible online.

One thing I can give Ultimate though is that the sheer amount of content (as in characters, stages, music etc.), fan service and references is absolutely mind-boggling and crazy. We are definitely spoiled in this regard, no doubt.

Though, Ultimate is a prime example of "quantity over quality" and fails flat on so many other areas.

All in all, I don't view Ultimate as a good game. Not that fun casually, not that good competitively, single-player content is lackluster and awful (WoL was just miserable) and online is just terrible, especially in this day and age. Game is a 4/10 for me.
And offcourse I agree with this.
 

Among Waddle Dees

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
296
-Sora was one of two immediate factors that made me quit Ultimate, although I will admit he's the lesser of the two, and it's not exactly his fault. In a vacuum, the crossover character works fine, and in truth I do not mind his franchise being Disney-less in Smash, since that avoided opening an uglier can of worms. He's not specifically to blame for my disdain of over 66% of the DLC being third-party (72% if you don't count the Piranha Plant) so I mean no specific ill will to his fandom for it.

-The other factor was, as minor as it sounds, WoL's finale. I recently got around to finishing it, and... it was AWFUL. The final boss and its music were at the very least memorable, even if kinda difficult to beat. But the buildup was DREADFUL, and the final reward legitimately undermined the whole experience. I've heard bad tales of the true ending, but nobody mentioned the menu music selection: how can you not choose the Melee Trophy song?! Yes, I could've seen this coming, but I hate spoilers, and nothing could've prepared me for this after years of stalling. I almost preferred the Smash 4 approach of having no story.

-I hate the Piranha Plant... in general! One of the uglier Mario enemies with annoying traits that always make it bothersome to see, the only time I've ever tolerated one was Petey, who's role as a Final Smash here doesn't help it any. So many other goons from just Mario would've been better; even the Goomba and it's low telekinesis powers would've been a much more apt mook fighter at this rate.

-Marx was one of the most tone-deaf boss inclusions in the series. Although a battle like that would've worked well in Brawl, when there weren't as many good boss options for Kirby, to do it now when Kirby evolved past him was beyond baffling. I totally get why the playable Marx from Star Allies isn't here, but this Marx has nothing to do with Super Star Ultra, even! As if the original Super Star hadn't already grown tiresome to see again.

-Although I will give props to "Everyone is Here" I will not respect it. It was a decent concept to keep everyone, but it came at the price of some of the most unappealing newcomer moments I've ever seen in the franchise. As a result, the cost was too high for the novelty. I don't believe keeping it would be a remarkably good idea, with this in mind.

-If I were ever tempted to pick up Smash again, it would have to be a title without Sakurai's involvement. Between his iceberg of biases, his love for incorporating main characters and designs I grow tired of, and what feels like arrogance with his work ethic, I would rather see him tackle something original than associate himself with something I used to enjoy playing.
 
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Yamat08

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 11, 2021
Messages
89
-Although I will give props to "Everyone is Here" I will not respect it. It was a decent concept to keep everyone, but it came at the price of some of the most unappealing newcomer moments I've ever seen in the franchise. As a result, the cost was too high for the novelty. I don't believe keeping it would be a remarkably good idea, with this in mind.
It's one thing to blame Everyone Is Here for a lack of newcomers (especially in the base game), but what did it have to do with the "unappealing newcomer moments" themselves? I mean, whether they did Everyone Is Here, or they just did another pick-and-choose roster of veterans like with Smash4, I doubt that would've changed the fact that they'd still reveal Piranha Plant as a bonus DLC, they'd still reveal Sora, they'd still reveal whatever else you claim to have not liked.
 

Oddball

Smash Lord
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Oct 1, 2016
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-The other factor was, as minor as it sounds, WoL's finale. I recently got around to finishing it, and... it was AWFUL. The final boss and its music were at the very least memorable, even if kinda difficult to beat. But the buildup was DREADFUL, and the final reward legitimately undermined the whole experience. I've heard bad tales of the true ending, but nobody mentioned the menu music selection: how can you not choose the Melee Trophy song?! Yes, I could've seen this coming, but I hate spoilers, and nothing could've prepared me for this after years of stalling. I almost preferred the Smash 4 approach of having no story.
That's one thing I've heard so little talk about I started to wonder if I'm the only person that was bothered by it.

The World of Light really needed a better ending than it got. As it is, I'm not 100% sure what even happened.
 

Lenidem

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
886
That's one thing I've heard so little talk about I started to wonder if I'm the only person that was bothered by it.

The World of Light really needed a better ending than it got. As it is, I'm not 100% sure what even happened.
World of Light needed a story... What we have is no more than a pitch. "The embodiment of Light takes over the world and neutralizes everyone but Kirby. Kirby saves everyone. Then the embodiment of Darkness arrives. The heroes defeat them both. The end." Seriously, there is nothing else.
 

Oddball

Smash Lord
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I liked the intro to world of light, but it really felt like an Act 2 or Act 3 to a larger story.
 

UserKev

Smash Champion
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May 10, 2017
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Subspace had a stronger plot that give off the impressions of having hidden layers that still has me emotionally invested. And is a plot that I can take seriously, even being in an outdated game.
 

Yamat08

Smash Apprentice
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Oct 11, 2021
Messages
89
That's one thing I've heard so little talk about I started to wonder if I'm the only person that was bothered by it.

The World of Light really needed a better ending than it got. As it is, I'm not 100% sure what even happened.
World of Light needed a story... What we have is no more than a pitch. "The embodiment of Light takes over the world and neutralizes everyone but Kirby. Kirby saves everyone. Then the embodiment of Darkness arrives. The heroes defeat them both. The end." Seriously, there is nothing else.
As much as I criticize WoL, I don't think the story was really all that complicated to follow. Galeem and Dharkon are defeated and all the Spirits get to fly back to their home worlds. If nothing else, I thought the spectacle of that accompanied by Lifelight was a pretty okay watch to cap off a (horribly dragged out) slogfest with a decent final battle.

I think the problem with World of Light, story-wise, is that Sakurai tried to have his cake and eat it too. He probably realized that the decision to completely axe Adventure Mode for Smash4 was a generally unpopular one, yet he also must've still been sore about people uploading the Brawl movies to YouTube. So, rather than this complex affair about all the Smash characters eventually meeting up with one another, he just makes a big exploration and gameplay-focused mode with only a very minimal emphasis on story. Aside from the opening scene which already got shown off in the Direct, pretty much all the cutscenes would just be simple focuses on the two bosses, not even using much if anything in the way of complicated background scenery (and what little is there looks as if it could've been ripped straight out of Subspace Emissary), and the only characters who so much as make an appearance are a select handful of mandatory recruits.

I guess to be fair, the ending to Subspace Emissary wasn't particularly spectacular either. Honestly, I think the story just kinda fizzles out once Tabuu wipes out almost everyone. The ending itself is just whoever's in your party overlooking a cliff. I guess part of the problem is that, because you have to re-recruit most of the characters' trophies, there're way too many variables on how your current party would look that many further cutscenes wouldn't be all that feasible (which could be another reason for World of Light's cutscenes being as simple as they are). 'Course, this all could've been avoided by maybe NOT having everyone but Dedede's group get killed off at once, or at least mandating that every character be recruited again before the story could continue (I guess credit where it's due, they did at least give us a couple scenes featuring Ganondorf and Wario joining the party). But then again, I get the feeling that Subspace ended the way it did due to rushing. Brawl did need to meet a deadline afterall, and the game had already been delayed multiple times by that point. So, their solution to ending the story was apparently to just find a convenient excuse to practically stop having a story and focus only on Tabuu (kinda the same with Galeem and Dharkon, really).
 

Lenidem

Smash Ace
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As much as I criticize WoL, I don't think the story was really all that complicated to follow. Galeem and Dharkon are defeated and all the Spirits get to fly back to their home worlds. If nothing else, I thought the spectacle of that accompanied by Lifelight was a pretty okay watch to cap off a (horribly dragged out) slogfest with a decent final battle.

I think the problem with World of Light, story-wise, is that Sakurai tried to have his cake and eat it too. He probably realized that the decision to completely axe Adventure Mode for Smash4 was a generally unpopular one, yet he also must've still been sore about people uploading the Brawl movies to YouTube. So, rather than this complex affair about all the Smash characters eventually meeting up with one another, he just makes a big exploration and gameplay-focused mode with only a very minimal emphasis on story. Aside from the opening scene which already got shown off in the Direct, pretty much all the cutscenes would just be simple focuses on the two bosses, not even using much if anything in the way of complicated background scenery (and what little is there looks as if it could've been ripped straight out of Subspace Emissary), and the only characters who so much as make an appearance are a select handful of mandatory recruits.

I guess to be fair, the ending to Subspace Emissary wasn't particularly spectacular either. Honestly, I think the story just kinda fizzles out once Tabuu wipes out almost everyone. The ending itself is just whoever's in your party overlooking a cliff. I guess part of the problem is that, because you have to re-recruit most of the characters' trophies, there're way too many variables on how your current party would look that many further cutscenes wouldn't be all that feasible (which could be another reason for World of Light's cutscenes being as simple as they are). 'Course, this all could've been avoided by maybe NOT having everyone but Dedede's group get killed off at once, or at least mandating that every character be recruited again before the story could continue (I guess credit where it's due, they did at least give us a couple scenes featuring Ganondorf and Wario joining the party). But then again, I get the feeling that Subspace ended the way it did due to rushing. Brawl did need to meet a deadline afterall, and the game had already been delayed multiple times by that point. So, their solution to ending the story was apparently to just find a convenient excuse to practically stop having a story and focus only on Tabuu (kinda the same with Galeem and Dharkon, really).
Oh, I'm not saying it's complicated. Quite the opposite. There is nothing to understand besides "big bad guys who came out of nowhere get beaten and everything good".
 

Swamp Sensei

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I guess I'll throw my hat in the ring.

SSE is pretty bad and I prefer WoL by a longshot.

SSE has mediocre show platforming with enemies that are either annoying or waiting games. The cutscenes are nice, but the plot is awful too. Things aren't explained and it assumes you know character motivation, character relationships and character abilities. Things just... happen at random with an occasional reference. It's charming at times, but most of it just exists...
 

Lenidem

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
886
i think thats the default nintendo story
But it's always fleshed out. Here, we only have the bare bones. That's what's disappointing : a huge, incredible cast of characters, a unique opportunity... and you do nothing with them storywise. They don't even interact in the slightest like in SSE.
 
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fogbadge

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But it's always fleshed out. Here, we only have the bare bones. That's what's disappointing : a huge, incredible cast of characters, a unique opportunity... and you do nothing with them storywise. They don't even interact in the slightest like in SSE.
well this was probably yet another side effect of "everyone is here". the larger roster and stage selection clearly cost us in several regards and i would guess a very simplified story is one of them
 

Lenidem

Smash Ace
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well this was probably yet another side effect of "everyone is here". the larger roster and stage selection clearly cost us in several regards and i would guess a very simplified story is one of them
Probably, yes. Doesn't change the fact that it was disappointing.
 

Yamat08

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 11, 2021
Messages
89
Honestly, I'd like to think that a Subspace-like story with a full roster is more plausible than a lot of people might think. I mean, for starters, not EVERY character needs to be a major focus (Toon Link, Wolf, and Jigglypuff are obvious, but one must also consider that IceClimbers didn't really do much of anything besides appear, and even Yoshi's just kinda there in Link's plot thread). There's also the fact that they already have a lot of high-quality 3D models and other re-usable assets already completed, plus Nintendo could likely give Sakurai a much bigger budget to work with than even during Brawl's development. But yeah, this might still fall within the realm of wishful thinking (or at least so long as Sakurai himself remains staunchly against another story-heavy Adventure Mode).
 

fogbadge

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Honestly, I'd like to think that a Subspace-like story with a full roster is more plausible than a lot of people might think. I mean, for starters, not EVERY character needs to be a major focus (Toon Link, Wolf, and Jigglypuff are obvious, but one must also consider that IceClimbers didn't really do much of anything besides appear, and even Yoshi's just kinda there in Link's plot thread). There's also the fact that they already have a lot of high-quality 3D models and other re-usable assets already completed, plus Nintendo could likely give Sakurai a much bigger budget to work with than even during Brawl's development. But yeah, this might still fall within the realm of wishful thinking (or at least so long as Sakurai himself remains staunchly against another story-heavy Adventure Mode).
Dunno about a bigger budget for brawl. All those 3rd party license musta cost a lot
 

Oddball

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People get too focused on whether Smash is Nintendo All-Stars! or whether it's A Celebration of Gaming!

Both have been said, yes, but people want Smash to be 100% this or 100% that.
Smash is both. And neither. And sometimes inbetween.
Smash is Smash. It's its own thing now.
Don't try to define it or limit it.
Let it be what it is.
 

Lenidem

Smash Ace
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People get too focused on whether Smash is Nintendo All-Stars! or whether it's A Celebration of Gaming!

Both have been said, yes, but people want Smash to be 100% this or 100% that.
Smash is both. And neither. And sometimes inbetween.
Smash is Smash. It's its own thing now.
Don't try to define it or limit it.
Let it be what it is.
Mmm. Wanting to give Smash a simple definition at all cost is one thing. But as Nintendo himself has claimed that it was this or that, I think it's healthy to question their word and think about the concept by ourselves. "What is Smash Bros.?" is, in my opinion, an excellent and fascinating question, with no easy answer.
 

Laniv

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Erdrick should've been the default Hero.

If Ike can have both his PoR and RD designs, I see no reasons why other characters like Roy or Zelda can't have their older designs as alts.
 
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