Unpopular Smash Ultimate Opinions! - Read the OP before Posting

[The DanMan051]

I decided to respond because the anime situation in SSF2 is actually pretty interesting. The anime characters are entirely a result of Grandfather Clause. A while back, the roster was planned to be considerably different than what it is now, considerably less professional much in line with the original Super Smash Flash, and there were plenty of anime characters on that roster. A while back, they decided to gun for professional quality. They took a new direction entirely and rebooted the roster, removing the OCs and almost all the anime characters. Ichigo, Goku and Naruto go lucky; they had all been programmed and added to the roster before the reboot, and it's been made pretty clear they wouldn't be here if it weren't for that. Then they added Luffy just to complete the Shonen 4, and he's already been confirmed to be the last anime fighter in the game. As a TL:DR, they're the remnants of when the game took a vastly different approach.

As for Ganondorf and the Pokemon, we still haven't seen much of the unlockable roster, and there's allegedy still so much left we don't know about, and I'm pretty sure Ganondorf, at least one more Pokemon (probably Mewtwo), and a few of the weirder absences will show up as future unlockables.

Wasn't aware of that tidbit.

It still being plain incomplete does explain a lot of my complaints in general.

I'm not fond of the anime characters being there either but it's not like these guys started out as "professionals". Besides it's not like the actual Smash games don't have borderline amateur **** in them at times like almost everything about Chrom.

I've been asking this same question when it comes to the actual Smash games for the past 18 years.

Because they're prioritizing things other than making sure Pokemon and Fire Emblem have a dozen characters each I guess.

Ultimate in general was a bit rushed due to the sheer amount of content (Stage Builder and Piranha Plant both having substantial data in the game at launch but only being added post-launch supports this).
Chrom's model is a bit rough, but he's also the second most unique Echo fighter behind only Ken, having different animations than Roy on several attacks so that he isn't using a reverse grip but has the same hitboxes (compare his side tilt, which is a downwards slice that keeps his arm close to his body-- Roy's is an inwards slash with a reverse grip, while Marth and Lucina have an outwards and upwards slash) as well as a technically unique up-special that's wildly different from Roy's (on top of a unique Final Smash, something that can also only be claimed of Ken; Dark Pit as well by technicality, as it was functionally identical and nearly identical in animation to Light Arrow but both Zelda and Sheik lost it).

I'd think making Ganondorf's moveset more unique and showing him off would be a priority for a fan game like SSF2, what with the overall roster being nostalgia goggled.

As I said earlier, both FE and Pokemon have a crapton of characters (as well as Pokemon being the most prolific media franchise in existance) and they could easily just roll with ones not in Smash. Instead of seemingly limiting themselves to the dullest choices for Pokemon, why not pull out stuff like Sceptile (grass blades and arena control) or Empoleon (a heavy character with multiple ranged options and ways to get in) or Zoroark (rush down mixed with illusions for both offense and defense)-- cool and easily unique character choices that simply have no chance of inclusion in Smash?
Similarly, they could roll with Leif as a weaponmaster character and basically have a different weapon for every move-- or hell, one up Smash itself and have Chrom as a unique character, backed by lightning element attacks (something TMS and FEW have done) and a Lance. Or go with Ephraim or Hector or Micaiah to have dedicated weapon specialists instead of having everyone using a sword to some extent.

I sincerely hope there isn't intentional bias against FE and Pokemon, because there's so many options that they could easily include multiple unique characters from both series that have a snowball's chance in hell of ever being included in Smash.

 

[ShadowTheHedgehogZ]

Ultimate overnerfed grabs and shields.

That's not unpopular as far as I know

 

[Mogisthelioma]

That's not unpopular as far as I know

Some people think the nerfing of grabs and shields is a good thing to prevent defensive and campy games and encourage players to use free flow combos outside of grabs.

I happen to disagree strongly and wish we had Smash 4 shields and grabs back.

 

[ShadowTheHedgehogZ]

Some people think the nerfing of grabs and shields is a good thing to prevent defensive and campy games and encourage players to use free flow combos outside of grabs.

I happen to disagree strongly and wish we had Smash 4 shields and grabs back.

Yeah I never had that problem in Smash 4 but in Ultimate my shield will drop all the time so I support the old grab and shield system

 

[The DanMan051]

Yeah I never had that problem in Smash 4 but in Ultimate my shield will drop all the time so I support the old grab and shield system

Shield poking became a lot more extreme in Ultimate-- that's something I immediately noticed as well.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Some people think the nerfing of grabs and shields is a good thing to prevent defensive and campy games and encourage players to use free flow combos outside of grabs.

I happen to disagree strongly and wish we had Smash 4 shields and grabs back.

I'd personally revert the short range grab nerfs and slightly speed up shield drop. (11 frames to 9 frames)

Shield poking became a lot more extreme in Ultimate-- that's something I immediately noticed as well.

While we're at it, get rid of shield poking...
Never like that mechanic anyway. (That's my unpopular opinion by the way)

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ultimate overnerfed grabs and shields.

And yet ironically, shield-grabs are still a thing (especially when the CPU does it), thanks to the grab's start-up lag not being affected much (if at all).

 

[Cutie Gwen]

My opinion on Smash Flash is that it's basically proof of how fan movesets don't work, as they prioritize "Cool reference!" Over coherent game plans

 

[Mogisthelioma]

My opinion on Smash Flash is that it's basically proof of how fan movesets don't work, as they prioritize "Cool reference!" Over coherent game plans

I mean would you rather have a working but boring moveset or a flashy moveset that doesn't necessarily work into itself. Depends of if yo're into high level gameplay or just playing for fun.

With that in mind, I'm thankful that we can at least get some movesets in Ultimate that are both creative and powerful (Joker might be the best example).

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I mean would you rather have a working but boring moveset or a flashy moveset that doesn't necessarily work into itself. Depends of if yo're into high level gameplay or just playing for fun.

With that in mind, I'm thankful that we can at least get some movesets in Ultimate that are both creative and powerful (Joker might be the best example).

Smash is able to look flashy and be coherent. Smash Flash gives Bandana Dee random references and parasols while only giving him a SINGLE attack with his spear last I checked. Incoherent movesets make bad characters too

 

[RouffWestie]

Smash is able to look flashy and be coherent.

It helps that they don't hesitate to copy-paste preexisting movesets onto new characters.

 

[REZERO]

Joker isn't balanced though, I mean people winning tournaments with him 3 days after release? You know, online I'd understand because people need to adjust to a new character but at a tournament it means that people who play at a higher level had difficulty playing against him after he's only just been released.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Joker isn't balanced though, I mean people winning tournaments with him 3 days after release? You know, online I'd understand because people need to adjust to a new character but at a tournament it means that people who play at a higher level had difficulty playing against him after he's only just been released.

To be fair that happens with every new character in fighting games, matchup inexperience is something people always forget about

 

[Avokha]

Been lurking here for quite a while, suppose I should drop mine here finally lol.

IMO, the most likely capcom rep for DLC isn't Dante or anything RE. Considering that the goal of smash DLC this time around is to bring in new audiences to smash, I believe the most likely capcom rep is actually (playable) Monster Hunter. That franchise is MASSIVELY big in Japan, has been growing in popularity everywhere else thanks to World, and has several titles on Nintendo consoles (if that's even still a requirement). Additionally, there is already monster hunter content in smash, so getting the licensing shouldn't be an issue whatsoever.

Monster Hunter as a character has a vast amount of potential in just about all aspects of smash, like in moveset, stage, music, spirit battles, etc. Not to mention smash wouldn't be the first fighting game for playable monster hunter to be featured in (Marcel vs Capcom Infinite DLC)

Tl;dr: People are heavily sleeping on Monster Hunter as Dlc

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Been lurking here for quite a while, suppose I should drop mine here finally lol.

IMO, the most likely capcom rep for DLC isn't Dante or anything RE. Considering that the goal of smash DLC this time around is to bring in new audiences to smash, I believe the most likely capcom rep is actually (playable) Monster Hunter. That franchise is MASSIVELY big in Japan, has been growing in popularity everywhere else thanks to World, and has several titles on Nintendo consoles (if that's even still a requirement). Additionally, there is already monster hunter content in smash, so getting the licensing shouldn't be an issue whatsoever.

Monster Hunter as a character has a vast amount of potential in just about all aspects of smash, like in moveset, stage, music, spirit battles, etc. Not to mention smash wouldn't be the first fighting game for playable monster hunter to be featured in (Marcel vs Capcom Infinite DLC)

Tl;dr: People are heavily sleeping on Monster Hunter as Dlc

Like you said, Monster Hunter is already represented in Smash with Rathalos, the most iconic thing in the franchise. Most people see that as a sign it's already represented well enough, especially as the Hunter has a similar issue to say, Dante, by having too MUCH moveset potential. Although I don't care about the franchise too much, as seen with her portrayal in MvCI, people would be thrilled to see them in the game

 

[MBRedboy31]

Smash Flash gives Bandana Dee random references and parasols while only giving him a SINGLE attack with his spear last I checked.

Uh... he attacks with his spear in jab, ftilt, utilt, dsmash, upair, nair, dair, dash attack, upb, and sideb.
(Out of those, only ftilt, upair, dair, upb, and sideb specifically reference attacks in his main series moveset, though.)

He also uses a parasol as his only weapon in Kirby Battle Royale despite the Spear moveset existing in that game, although that game came out after his SSF2 moveset did.

I do have to admit, though, the fact that SSF2 calls him “Bandana Dee” even though his name is “Bandana Waddle Dee” still bothers me...

 

[CodeBlue_]

My opinion on Smash Flash is that it's basically proof of how fan movesets don't work, as they prioritize "Cool reference!" Over coherent game plans

I feel Chibi Robo, Ichigo, Goku, Naruto, Sora, Lloyd and Tails are extremely coherent archetypes that I feel would fit closely with Smash. I can't say anything about the newcomers past v0.9 (as I haven't played it since) but I can't relate with this sentiment for the game as a whole.

 

[The DanMan051]

I mean would you rather have a working but boring moveset or a flashy moveset that doesn't necessarily work into itself. Depends of if yo're into high level gameplay or just playing for fun.

With that in mind, I'm thankful that we can at least get some movesets in Ultimate that are both creative and powerful (Joker might be the best example).

I get my teeth kicked in by randoms online more often than not.
I'll take the bland but coherent moveset over the flashy but aimless/impractical one any day if it has to be either/or.

I feel Chibi Robo, Ichigo, Goku, Naruto, Sora, Lloyd and Tails are extremely coherent archetypes that I feel would fit closely with Smash. I can't say anything about the newcomers past v0.9 (as I haven't played it since) but I can't relate with this sentiment for the game as a whole.

I just fired it up to test out Lloyd and Sora.

Lloyd felt okay (a bit better than I remembered)-- just really dull (for a character who has two swords he sure doesn't use them in tandem much; I'd expect a lot of fast multi-hitting moves, but nothing in the way of that).

Sora is where I'd say things rear their ugly head.
>Why isn't his jab a 1-2-3 combo like is the norm for Smash (and is how it starts out in KH3D, at least)?
>Why isn't his keyblade boomerang attack his side special, like other boomerang attacks in Smash are?
>Why are Fire, Thunder, and Blizzard stuck as a rotating down special instead of each being their own moves?
>Why is his side special Glide, an entirely non-offensive move?
>Why is his up special... his teching animation after getting hit?

Honestly, here's how I'd do things:
>Neutral special: Fire-- pressing the button fires one projectile with a homing effect, mashing it fires 3 that go in a straight line
>Side special: Blizzard-- fires a projectile that moves forwards, encasing enemies and leaving an ice trail. Pressing the button again allows Sora to slide along the ice trail for a follow up hit
>Down special: Thunder-- an AOE that does weak damage, but has long range and high hitstun
>Up special: Glide-- functionally identical to Pit's up-special

Also work in Flowmotion animations into his aerials instead of him just swinging the Kingdom Key around.
And heck, maybe even have his jab combo actually be a 5 hit combo that instead gets abridged as a 3 hit one in the air instead of a traditional neutral air.

There. Conceptualized a moveset that's both more coherent and more reference filled in 15 minutes than the one in SSF2.

EDIT: also goddamn weebs where's JYB Ichigo

 

[Beautifully Butterfully]

Been lurking here for quite a while, suppose I should drop mine here finally lol.

IMO, the most likely capcom rep for DLC isn't Dante or anything RE. Considering that the goal of smash DLC this time around is to bring in new audiences to smash, I believe the most likely capcom rep is actually (playable) Monster Hunter. That franchise is MASSIVELY big in Japan, has been growing in popularity everywhere else thanks to World, and has several titles on Nintendo consoles (if that's even still a requirement). Additionally, there is already monster hunter content in smash, so getting the licensing shouldn't be an issue whatsoever.

Monster Hunter as a character has a vast amount of potential in just about all aspects of smash, like in moveset, stage, music, spirit battles, etc. Not to mention smash wouldn't be the first fighting game for playable monster hunter to be featured in (Marcel vs Capcom Infinite DLC)

Tl;dr: People are heavily sleeping on Monster Hunter as Dlc

As much as I like Monster Hunter, I just find it odd if it turns out to be one of the Fighter Pass with the franchise already appearing in a form of a boss/Assist Trophy. If we discount the Mii costumes in Smash 4. It would be like if Dracula and his castle debuted first and then later down the line after the game's release, Simon/Richter Belmont is DLC. (If we are speaking on third party content DLC).
Now don't get me wrong, I would like a playable Monster Hunter character but from the gripes I mentioned earlier may diminish the hype surrounding it. Please make the hunter a Insect Glaive or Switch Axe user

 

[REZERO]

To be fair that happens with every new character in fighting games, matchup inexperience is something people always forget about

I understand where you come from. The difference is that in tournaments people who play at higher levels can adjust their playstyle to beat newer characters assuming said character is balanced.

In quickplay or online matches I'd totally understand people not having a good time but a tournament is quite different. Pros do a lot of research and can see strengths/weaknesses of a character just by watching, and when you see them play a character for the first time they will probably play better than some scrub online who has 200 matches with Cloud just because they're comfortable with basic maneuvers and reading skills. For someone to not even 100% maximize efficiency with Joker (because it is only 3 days of release) and win a tournament against people who have pretty much mastered their own characters (give or take ~3 - 5 months) means there's something about Joker that makes him real good that we aren't noticing at lower levels.

 

[Troykv]

Similarly, they could roll with Leif as a weaponmaster character and basically have a different weapon for every move-- or hell, one up Smash itself and have Chrom as a unique character, backed by lightning element attacks (something TMS and FEW have done) and a Lance. Or go with Ephraim or Hector or Micaiah to have dedicated weapon specialists instead of having everyone using a sword to some extent.

I sincerely hope there isn't intentional bias against FE and Pokemon, because there's so many options that they could easily include multiple unique characters from both series that have a snowball's chance in hell of ever being included in Smash.

The overcriticsm about Fire Emblem being the Swordlord franchise makes me wonder if Sakurai would include a Fire Emblem Sword Unit Fighter again.

And I mean, he already used many the of the gameplay ideas with swordmasters.

 

[KatKit]

Marth is better than Lucina in Ultimate; Lucina is better than Marth in Smash 4. Speaking of which, I don't think Lucina is even in the top 5 strongest characters in the game so far. Heck, I think Corrin is better than both of them.

Good or not, Marth should never have gotten an English voice.

The "balancing on the edge animation" is one of the best taunts. I do that instead of crouching (rapidly), standing still, and even taunting (when available). It's too silly looking to be disrespectful.

Piranha Plant is super slept on. The anti-air archetype is more dangerous than people realize. I don't think it's even remotely a bad character at all- it's just unorthodox.

Joker isn't a lazy copy/paste character; he has a surprising amount of references from his game in his moveset. For example, his sliding attack is based off of him sliding underneath lasers. His enhanced neutral special is based off of his Tower social link perk with Shinya Oda. His up tilt is a reference to his Proficiency stat (he stylistically spins stuff once it reaches a certain level). Other attacks/animations are references to official artwork as well. Overall, he feels unique to use.

The pre/post-battle messages are so great. During a Falco ditto match, the opponent said "Trust your instincts." When opponents don't want to rematch and we end up fighting again anyway, no response is more fitting than "Looks like we don't have a choice." I fought two different Jigglypuff mains who each said "Our cause is just" when they won.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I understand where you come from. The difference is that in tournaments people who play at higher levels can adjust their playstyle to beat newer characters assuming said character is balanced.

In quickplay or online matches I'd totally understand people not having a good time but a tournament is quite different. Pros do a lot of research and can see strengths/weaknesses of a character just by watching, and when you see them play a character for the first time they will probably play better than some scrub online who has 200 matches with Cloud just because they're comfortable with basic maneuvers and reading skills. For someone to not even 100% maximize efficiency with Joker (because it is only 3 days of release) and win a tournament against people who have pretty much mastered their own characters (give or take ~3 - 5 months) means there's something about Joker that makes him real good that we aren't noticing at lower levels.

That's true but 3 days honestly isn't a lot of time. Then there's also how at launch that character groups wouldn't show off some good tech so they could use it in a tournament with their opponent not knowing what to do. I'd say give it another week or two, because Joker's also a rather technical character meaning it's going to take a while to understand how to beat him, by contrast, K.Rool, who lots of people really overhyped for the first month or so, ended up getting figured out afterwards and is considered low tier. Granted, K.Rool's a lot simpler than Joker and Joker does indeed have tools to be an excellent character but it's the same principle, counterplay just hasn't been figured out yet

 

[Megadoomer]

I've had this opinion about other Smash games as well - not just Ultimate. I'm not sure if it's unpopular, strictly speaking, but at the very least, it's divisive: I don't get why people think that cartoony mascot characters (ex. Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Crash Bandicoot, Rayman) are the only third party characters that "fit" in Smash, and by extension, these are the only third party characters that should be allowed in.

Since day one, Smash has been a mix of completely different art styles - put Captain Falcon next to Mario, or Samus next to Kirby, and it should be clear that they're from completely different franchises. Yet people seem to be much stricter with third party characters. Characters from M-rated franchises (Snake, Bayonetta, Joker) seem to be hit with this the hardest, but you also see it get brought up with Cloud (and, if the rumours/datamined pieces of info are true, Erdrick). The Belmonts and Street Fighter characters sometimes get a pass, but you still see that reasoning get brought up - they're realistically-proportioned humans (well, semi-realistically in Bayonetta's case), so they "don't fit with Smash".

By that logic, a solid third of the Nintendo characters on the roster wouldn't "fit" in Smash. If the developers used an incredibly narrow definition of which third party characters could make it in, then it would heavily limit the appeal that Smash would have. Not only that, but these unusual and unexpected additions into Smash help us to broaden our horizons. I had already played some Sonic and Mega Man games by the time that they were announced for Smash - you'd be hard-pressed to find a Nintendo fan who hasn't. However, the same couldn't be said for characters like Snake or Joker - their announcements encouraged me to give Metal Gear Solid and Persona 5 a shot, and I loved those games.

It just comes across as the people in question not having played games like Metal Gear Solid, Bayonetta, Persona 5, Final Fantasy 7, etc. but trying to come up with a justification for why they don't want those characters in Smash, in my eyes. When it comes to third party characters, I wish people would be more open-minded.

 

[osby]

I've had this opinion about other Smash games as well - not just Ultimate. I'm not sure if it's unpopular, strictly speaking, but at the very least, it's divisive: I don't get why people think that cartoony mascot characters (ex. Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Crash Bandicoot, Rayman) are the only third party characters that "fit" in Smash, and by extension, these are the only third party characters that should be allowed in.

Since day one, Smash has been a mix of completely different art styles - put Captain Falcon next to Mario, or Samus next to Kirby, and it should be clear that they're from completely different franchises. Yet people seem to be much stricter with third party characters. Characters from M-rated franchises (Snake, Bayonetta, Joker) seem to be hit with this the hardest, but you also see it get brought up with Cloud (and, if the rumours/datamined pieces of info are true, Erdrick). The Belmonts and Street Fighter characters sometimes get a pass, but you still see that reasoning get brought up - they're realistically-proportioned humans (well, semi-realistically in Bayonetta's case), so they "don't fit with Smash".

By that logic, a solid third of the Nintendo characters on the roster wouldn't "fit" in Smash. If the developers used an incredibly narrow definition of which third party characters could make it in, then it would heavily limit the appeal that Smash would have. Not only that, but these unusual and unexpected additions into Smash help us to broaden our horizons. I had already played some Sonic and Mega Man games by the time that they were announced for Smash - you'd be hard-pressed to find a Nintendo fan who hasn't. However, the same couldn't be said for characters like Snake or Joker - their announcements encouraged me to give Metal Gear Solid and Persona 5 a shot, and I loved those games.

It just comes across as the people in question not having played games like Metal Gear Solid, Bayonetta, Persona 5, Final Fantasy 7, etc. but trying to come up with a justification for why they don't want those characters in Smash, in my eyes. When it comes to third party characters, I wish people would be more open-minded.

Couldn't agree more.

Also, people complaining about realistic or anime characters but giving Zelda or Metroid free pass really irritates me. Just be honest and say you don't like a particular character/game, no need to present it like a principle and then contradict with yourself.

 

[PhantomShab]

I always thought Plant was cancer, but now it looks like it's literally living up to that. It's spreading into the Mario spinoffs now. Man I can't wait to see what mainstay character Plant get's to replace in Mario Kart 9. Tell me that Smash doesn't have the power to affect games outside of itself. Thanks a lot Sakurai.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

"This character has potential for a unique moveset!" is easily the most dull highlight potential for any potential newcomers, not just because Sakurai likes to bull**** his way through movesets (Shulk's Arts and weird shift to a Iaijutsu style immediately come to mind) but because well duh, of course the character has potential for a unique moveset, EVERYONE has potential for a unique moveset honestly.

Also, "This character is a bandwagon!" is the laziest criticism to a potential newcomer as it also can apply to literally everyone. It's a lazy way to dismiss any actual demand, and I say this as someone who hopped on the bandwagon for Isaac and K.Rool since a bit before 4 came out yet despite this I wouldn't likely been seen as a bandwagoner because those characters are/were popular requests around here, it only really gets thrown out to characters that the person saying it dislikes like when people were arguing "People are just bandwagoning Incineroar!" and what's currently happening with Erdrick. Bandwagons are honestly good I'd say because it lets more people open up to potential ideas. For example, Dante support and Skull Kid support rose quite drastically after people who leaked legitimate information added a fake leak involving those characters (Loz and the DMCV leaker to be specific) and Banjo Kazooie support didn't really start hitting it big until Phil Spencer said "Yeah we like free money" as before that it was seen as a "Hey that'd be neat" idea from what I gathered

 

[osby]

I always thought Plant was cancer, but now it looks like it's literally living up to that. It's spreading into the Mario spinoffs now. Man I can't wait to see what mainstay character Plant get's to replace in Mario Kart 9. Tell me that Smash doesn't have the power to affect games outside of itself. Thanks a lot Sakurai.

Just wait until it replaces Mario as the star of franchise.

 

[UserKev]

Proto Man would be a mediocre pick.
Sceptile is a underrated pick and for good reasons.
The Clown Pot would be a bland Final Smash for Bowser. Giga Bowser is the best thing to happen to Bowser.

As far as the more realistic characters in Smash, I'm just sick of them since their everywhere. I do want Smash to focus more on the cartoony picks as far as DLC or give me Travis Touchdown, a nerd like assassin who's more unique than the typical spikey haired male.

 

[Dee Dude]

-I used to miss Jason Adkins as but now that I’ve been maining him a lot and going on winning streaks in Quickplay, I can gladly say that Greg Chun is the superior VA.

I always thought Plant was cancer, but now it looks like it's literally living up to that. It's spreading into the Mario spinoffs now. Man I can't wait to see what mainstay character Plant get's to replace in Mario Kart 9. Tell me that Smash doesn't have the power to affect games outside of itself. Thanks a lot Sakurai.

-To be fair, atleast it made sense being in a Mario spin-off which aren’t new to adding generic enemies in a roster.

It being in a Smash game was my beef.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Proto Man would be a mediocre pick.
Sceptile is a underrated pick and for good reasons.
The Clown Pot would be a bland Final Smash for Bowser. Giga Bowser is the best thing to happen to Bowser.

As far as the more realistic characters in Smash, I'm just sick of them since their everywhere. I do want Smash to focus more on the cartoony picks as far as DLC or give me Travis Touchdown, a nerd like assassin who's more unique than the typical spikey haired male.

I'd prefer Grovyle over Sceptile.
Sceptile has no real impact in any of the games he's in. He is also overshadowed by the other two starters and their final evolution with Blaziken and Swampart.
On the other side, Sceptile was Ash's Pokémon during the anime and not Swampert or Blaziken. Or maybe I'm just overrating the other two, especially Swampert because of the Mudkip memes. But Grovyle was also part of the anime for a long time.

Anyway, Grovyle was a main character in Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Sky/Time/Darkness. And to my knowledge, Explorers of Sky is perceived as the best game in this spin-off series. He's a very well written character in this game, with a clear motive and I think that gave him a ton of personality.
If it weren't for that game then I'd guess Sceptile would be my pick as well.
Besides, we still miss the gen 3 representative Pokémon and what better Pokémon than Grovyle in Gen 3 does exist for that?
Gen 1: Pikachu, Trainer, Mewtu, Puff
Gen 2: Pichu
Gen 3:
Gen 4: Lucario
Gen 5:
Gen 6: Greninja
Gen 7: Incineroar
Gen 8: Scorbunny(?)

I guess gen 5 doesn't have a Pokémon because the generation is fairly unpopular (which I really can't understand) but Gen 3 has a higher standing by most fans, afaik.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I guess gen 5 doesn't have a Pokémon because the generation is fairly unpopular (which I really can't understand) but Gen 3 has a higher standing by most fans, afaik.

Really? Most Pokemon fans I know worship B2W2 as the best main-series games by far. I get that BW specifically isn't the most popular entry in the series, but people generally tend to rank Gen 5 pretty highly next to its contemporaries. (Myself included; B2W2 is just a masterpiece.)

 

[Calamitas]

I'd prefer Grovyle over Sceptile.
Sceptile has no real impact in any of the games he's in. He is also overshadowed by the other two starters and their final evolution with Blaziken and Swampart.
On the other side, Sceptile was Ash's Pokémon during the anime and not Swampert or Blaziken. Or maybe I'm just overrating the other two, especially Swampert because of the Mudkip memes. But Grovyle was also part of the anime for a long time.

Anyway, Grovyle was a main character in Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Sky/Time/Darkness. And to my knowledge, Explorers of Sky is perceived as the best game in this spin-off series. He's a very well written character in this game, with a clear motive and I think that gave him a ton of personality.
If it weren't for that game then I'd guess Sceptile would be my pick as well.
Besides, we still miss the gen 3 representative Pokémon and what better Pokémon than Grovyle in Gen 3 does exist for that?
Gen 1: Pikachu, Trainer, Mewtu, Puff
Gen 2: Pichu
Gen 3:
Gen 4: Lucario
Gen 5:
Gen 6: Greninja
Gen 7: Incineroar
Gen 8: Scorbunny(?)

I guess gen 5 doesn't have a Pokémon because the generation is fairly unpopular (which I really can't understand) but Gen 3 has a higher standing by most fans, afaik.

I'm pretty certain that the only real reason why Generation 5 doesn't have a playable fighter is because of unfortunate timing. Pokémon Trainer and Lucario seem like they just got lucky to me with regards to being both included in Brawl, and should not be seen as a rule.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Really? Most Pokemon fans I know worship B2W2 as the best main-series games by far. I get that BW specifically isn't the most popular entry in the series, but people generally tend to rank Gen 5 pretty highly next to its contemporaries. (Myself included; B2W2 is just a masterpiece.)

When gen 5 Pokémon are brought up then you only see people talking about Garbodor, Scrafty, Klinklang, Vanilluxe or the three apes/monkeys.
And not in a positive fashion. Maybe I just live in the past where such things were mostly brought up when ranking Pokémon generations but what "good" Pokémon are in Gen 5 that are actually wanted for Smash. I have never looked at the Smash Ballot but I can't imagine a Gen 5 Pokémon ranking high there. Maybe Chandelure. I don't recall anyone saying bad things about that Pokémon but does it really fit for Smash, being a chandelier?
The other Pokémon in Gen 5 also don't give Smash vibes for me. I can't really imagine any of those in Smash...Maybe Zoroark but that's about it and it is already a PokéBall Pokémon in Smash.

 

[Xelrog]

I hear extreme opinions on gen 5 in both directions. I thought it was the worst, myself. It's very polarizing though.

Honestly Lucario was notable because he was prominent in the anime and had multiple movies. No other pokemon has lived up to that since, and arguing over which of the dozens of B-tier faces of the franchise should get in seems silly to be because there are just too many to make an argument for. If no one obvious candidate stands out, might as well not add any.

Frankly Greninja and Incineroar didn't need to be in. I'm not mad that they are, but they're far from being icons to the same degree as .

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I've had this opinion about other Smash games as well - not just Ultimate. I'm not sure if it's unpopular, strictly speaking, but at the very least, it's divisive: I don't get why people think that cartoony mascot characters (ex. Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Crash Bandicoot, Rayman) are the only third party characters that "fit" in Smash, and by extension, these are the only third party characters that should be allowed in.

Since day one, Smash has been a mix of completely different art styles - put Captain Falcon next to Mario, or Samus next to Kirby, and it should be clear that they're from completely different franchises. Yet people seem to be much stricter with third party characters. Characters from M-rated franchises (Snake, Bayonetta, Joker) seem to be hit with this the hardest, but you also see it get brought up with Cloud (and, if the rumours/datamined pieces of info are true, Erdrick). The Belmonts and Street Fighter characters sometimes get a pass, but you still see that reasoning get brought up - they're realistically-proportioned humans (well, semi-realistically in Bayonetta's case), so they "don't fit with Smash".

By that logic, a solid third of the Nintendo characters on the roster wouldn't "fit" in Smash. If the developers used an incredibly narrow definition of which third party characters could make it in, then it would heavily limit the appeal that Smash would have. Not only that, but these unusual and unexpected additions into Smash help us to broaden our horizons. I had already played some Sonic and Mega Man games by the time that they were announced for Smash - you'd be hard-pressed to find a Nintendo fan who hasn't. However, the same couldn't be said for characters like Snake or Joker - their announcements encouraged me to give Metal Gear Solid and Persona 5 a shot, and I loved those games.

It just comes across as the people in question not having played games like Metal Gear Solid, Bayonetta, Persona 5, Final Fantasy 7, etc. but trying to come up with a justification for why they don't want those characters in Smash, in my eyes. When it comes to third party characters, I wish people would be more open-minded.

You could not have said this any better. As someone who would love to see Master Chief in Smash, it's annoying to see people dismiss him over other characters because he has a realistic design.

 

[TheYungLink]

You know something?

I'm sick of the community around this website treating anime-designed and JRPG characters like a liability.

"Ugh, well they HAVE to put THOSE characters in to appease THOSE groups. Guess it's just something we all have to tolerate before we get the REAL characters the REAL fans want."

That's the overall sentiment for those opposed to Erdrick and Joker. There's a sense of gross entitlement to that attitude as well, especially considering the newcomers we DO have so far.

• Inklings aren't really designed with the general anime art style.
• Daisy definitely isn't, being more of a cartoonier take on Disney princesses just like Peach was.
• Ridley for sure definitely isn't.
• Simon isn't.
• Richter is debatable, you can see some 80s anime vibes in his design
• Chrom is definitely an anime design.
• Dark Samus absolutely isn't anime designed.
• K. Rool isn't either.
• Isabelle isn't.
• Ken isn't.
• Incineroar isn't, Pokémon's designs for its creatures aren't like the designs for its trainers and humans. They are from a JRPG though.
• Piranha Plant isn't.
• Joker is. They are definitely from a JRPG.

That's...2 newcomers so far that are anime designed, 3 if you count Richter. And only 2 of them are from a JRPG, 3 if you count Fire Emblem. For bonus qualifiers, Chrom is the ONLY sword user.

So I'm tired of people acting like the possibility of Erdrick, an anime styled character who would still look completely distinct due to Akira Toriyama's art style, who is also from the de facto JRPG series, would be a buzzkill primarily because of those two factors and perhaps because Erdrick would use a sword. Look at what those people who are ~disgusted~ with more "anime" "JRPG" "sword users" ALREADY have.

 

[The DanMan051]

I always thought Plant was cancer, but now it looks like it's literally living up to that. It's spreading into the Mario spinoffs now. Man I can't wait to see what mainstay character Plant get's to replace in Mario Kart 9. Tell me that Smash doesn't have the power to affect games outside of itself. Thanks a lot Sakurai.

>Sakurai's explicitly noted that a character getting into Smash acts as major advertising for the game they're from
>Greninja uses water blades in Smash, which it doesn't use in the Pokemon games or any other official Pokemon work... until the Detective PIkachu movie
>The Levin Sword sword always had the same animation both up close and at range in FE: the unit pointing the sword above their head and summoning a bolt of lightning down on the opponent. Robin uses it physically in Smash, and both Fates and SoV have it being used like a sword in melee range

Smash is super influential, even if it's only little things.

Couldn't agree more.

Also, people complaining about realistic or anime characters but giving Zelda or Metroid free pass really irritates me. Just be honest and say you don't like a particular character/game, no need to present it like a principle and then contradict with yourself.

They're just trying not to say "anime character", which as you said just widens the hypocrisy.

Look at what those people who are ~disgusted~ with more "anime" "JRPG" "sword users" ALREADY have.

I'd love to force those people to sit down and play a set of any game that ASW has developed/published, just for the experience and reactions.

 

[Gimmick-Hater]

Smash should focus more on characters interactions rather than trying to cram the roster with tons of characters. I feel like the overall novelty of having all of these cool characters come together just to fight eachother has fade, and it'd be cool if there was a bit more substance to Smash. Brawl was a step in the right direction & Ultimate showed promise, but ended up dissapointing with what is essentially a glorified event match mode (World of Light). I'd love to see stuff like Snake & Cloud talking to eachother about being soldiers, Slippy repairing Captain Falcon's racer, Lucina interacting with her ancestor Marth (I know she has some quote in her victory line, but I was hoping for a bit more), etc... However, outside of Brawl, Smash has never really delivered in that regard, which has always been one of my biggest dissapointments regarding the series.

 

[Xelrog]

>Greninja uses water blades in Smash, which it doesn't use in the Pokemon games or any other official Pokemon work... until the Detective PIkachu movie

Except its signature move in the game it was introduced in.