Unpopular Smash Ultimate Opinions! - Read the OP before Posting

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I'm not really sure what Fire Emblem's marriage mechanic has to do with Smash. Please drop this discussion before it turns into Spam or Inappropriate Content. Thank you.

 

[SMOKINGkillsLET’SstartNOW]

Wii fit is like actually good tbh = High A Tier

 

[Deleted member]

Most of that didn't even happen though. Also this isn't really a Smash related opinion.

This is an explanation of my smash opinion that there shouldnt be any awakening and fates content.

 

[Calamitas]

This is an explanation of my smash opinion that there shouldnt be any awakening and fates content.

Which sounds a lot like a bunch of cherry-picked arguments to justify what's essentially a hate boner. I'm pretty sure the Archanea, Elibe and Tellius games weren't 100% squeaky-clean either.

 

[PhantomShab]

I also wouldn't mind seeing all Fates and Awakening content scrubbed out of Smash Bros, but not because I post on ResetEra. Fire Emblem would be back down to having a much more reasonable 3 characters until the fighters pass give us the inevitable 4th one.

Anyway I think setting aside a slot for a new Pokemon to shill is dumb since most of them get forgotten by the next gen. How big was Greninja in gen 7? How big will Incineroar be in gen 8? Lucario was the only shillmon (at the time anyway) that was added who actually manage to stand the test of time and stay super popular. If we just HAVE to get new Pokemon every single Smash game they should at least be ones that weren't forgotten by the very next game.

 

[---]

This is an explanation of my smash opinion that there shouldnt be any awakening and fates content.

I think that's a fair opinion to have. I would just be careful not to get too far into needing to explain your opinion that it turns into a defensive argument.

If people disagree after you respectfully explain your viewpoint, let them disagree. This thread is supposed to be about being Unpopular after all. lol

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I also wouldn't mind seeing all Fates and Awakening content scrubbed out of Smash Bros, but not because I post on ResetEra. Fire Emblem would be back down to having a much more reasonable 3 characters until the fighters pass give us the inevitable 4th one.

Anyway I think setting aside a slot for a new Pokemon to shill is dumb since most of them get forgotten by the next gen. How big was Greninja in gen 7? How big will Incineroar be in gen 8? Lucario was the only shillmon (at the time anyway) that was added who actually manage to stand the test of time and stay super popular. If we just HAVE to get new Pokemon every single Smash game they should at least be ones that weren't forgotten by the very next game.

Greninja was Ash's best pokemon in XY to the point it even got it's own form and is undeniably one of the most popular Pokemon of it's generation, it absolutely stood the test of time from Gen 6 to Gen 7. especially in the competitive Pokemon scene

 

[Deleted member]

Which sounds a lot like a bunch of cherry-picked arguments to justify what's essentially a hate boner. I'm pretty sure the Archanea, Elibe and Tellius games weren't 100% squeaky-clean either.

And where did i say any of those games are perfect? And for that matter do any of these games have underage children in bikinis?

 

[slrigeigdew]

I also wouldn't mind seeing all Fates and Awakening content scrubbed out of Smash Bros, but not because I post on ResetEra. Fire Emblem would be back down to having a much more reasonable 3 characters until the fighters pass give us the inevitable 4th one.

Anyway I think setting aside a slot for a new Pokemon to shill is dumb since most of them get forgotten by the next gen. How big was Greninja in gen 7? How big will Incineroar be in gen 8? Lucario was the only shillmon (at the time anyway) that was added who actually manage to stand the test of time and stay super popular. If we just HAVE to get new Pokemon every single Smash game they should at least be ones that weren't forgotten by the very next game.

I agree with both of your points but has Pokemon or FE character been confirmed as DLC yet? I think some people are jumping the gun on half of DLC pass being 1st party shilling.

 

[PhantomShab]

Greninja was Ash's best pokemon in XY to the point it even got it's own form and is undeniably one of the most popular Pokemon of it's generation, it absolutely stood the test of time from Gen 6 to Gen 7. especially in the competitive Pokemon scene

Did Ash Greninja happen in gen 7?

I agree with both of your points but has Pokemon or FE character been confirmed as DLC yet? I think some people are jumping the gun on half of DLC pass being 1st party shilling.

I'm just absolutely sure the only actual 1st party character we stand a chance at getting is YET ANOTHER Fire Emblem character is all.

 

[Deleted member]

The

I think that's a fair opinion to have. I would just be careful not to get too far into needing to explain your opinion that it turns into a defensive argument.

If people disagree after you respectfully explain your viewpoint, let them disagree. This thread is supposed to be about being Unpopular after all. lol

funnt thing is i wasnt even arguing with cutie gwen, we were in the same wavelenght. I even said in my first comment mentioning awakenings writing that it could've easily been removed lmao

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Did Ash Greninja happen in gen 7?


I'm just absolutely sure the only actual 1st party character we stand a chance at getting is YET ANOTHER Fire Emblem character is all.

Yes. Ash Greninja was an event exclusive pokemon which players got for playing the Sun and Moon demo, no coding for it existed in XY or ORAS. It seems to me that just like Lucario and likely Incineroar in the future, Smash helped make this Pokemon more popular than others, people say Zoroark failed to grab the same hype but loads of people still really liked Zoroark to the point everyone said "Oh yeah they're absolutely gonna be in Smash 4", so Lucario being in the second best selling fighting game of all time most likely helped push it to stand the test of time

 

[PhantomShab]

Yes. Ash Greninja was an event exclusive pokemon which players got for playing the Sun and Moon demo, no coding for it existed in XY or ORAS. It seems to me that just like Lucario and likely Incineroar in the future, Smash helped make this Pokemon more popular than others, people say Zoroark failed to grab the same hype but loads of people still really liked Zoroark to the point everyone said "Oh yeah they're absolutely gonna be in Smash 4", so Lucario being in the second best selling fighting game of all time most likely helped push it to stand the test of time

Well I guess we'll see how long that popularity holds out in Gen 8, for both Pokemon.

Either way I stand by my original point.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Well I guess we'll see how long that popularity holds out in Gen 8, for both Pokemon.

Either way I stand by my original point.

Your original point however fails to consider multiple factors like how nobody can see the future and how Smash can help make them stand the test of time. For long running franchises, it's the most beneficial to pull stuff from the most recent games. Zelda did it too for the most part and you're obviously a fan of that franchise

 

[RealPokeFan11]

Another unpopular opinion: King K. Rool is good in his current state.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Dr. Mario was again, made way before Echoes could potentially exist. He's a regular clone from Melee. That's a key difference among him, Lucina, and Dark Pit. Dr. Mario was retooled to be as close as his Melee counterpart as possible. Lucina and Dark Pit were intentionally designed to be a more samey-clone in comparison. I don't remember if Sakurai mentioned much other than Dr. Mario took way more work.

Doc just had an advantage to avoid the label.

To be fair, of all the Melee clones, Dr. Mario came the closest to being an actual Echo Fighter; he was designed to be a slower Mario who can hit harder, but everything else would've been the same (apart from the capsules not being absorbable).

 

[Rizen]

Another unpopular opinion: King K. Rool is good in his current state.

Mr.L's K.Rool did win that Australian major. I think he's as good as most of the other super heavyweights, somewhere in mid tier.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Mr.L's K.Rool did win that Australian major. I think he's as good as most of the other super heavyweights, somewhere in mid tier.

What the hell I know Australia is ass backwards with a lot of things anf was dominated by a WFT in 4 but K.Rool won a major? As in, the character who can't really do much against anything?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To be fair, of all the Melee clones, Dr. Mario came the closest to being an actual Echo Fighter; he was designed to be a slower Mario who can hit harder.

Eh, Falco and Roy didn't have huge differences either. They're on the same level, really. Only Ganondorf, Young Link, and Pichu has major differences in comparison. They also had different bodyshapes in comparison.

Echoes still didn't exist yet, so it doesn't matter if he was "kind of" similar. It wasn't a thing till maybe 4(if he intended to have that idea yet, but Lucina and Dark Pit were just called clones at that point). Doesn't mean Dr. Mario would've made sense as an Echo. Another thing is that in 4, all the moves were literally adapted from one character, bar the Final Smash. Dr. Mario was a combination of Mario and Luigi instead. So there's some difference in creation, which could explain part of the labeling. Also, Dr. Mario got even more differences in Ultimate while Dark Pit and Lucina didn't, which may be part of why).

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Eh, Falco and Roy didn't have huge differences either. They're on the same level, really. Only Ganondorf, Young Link, and Pichu has major differences in comparison. They also had different bodyshapes in comparison.

Echoes still didn't exist yet, so it doesn't matter if he was "kind of" similar. It wasn't a thing till maybe 4(if he intended to have that idea yet, but Lucina and Dark Pit were just called clones at that point). Doesn't mean Dr. Mario would've made sense as an Echo. Another thing is that in 4, all the moves were literally adapted from one character, bar the Final Smash. Dr. Mario was a combination of Mario and Luigi instead. So there's some difference in creation, which could explain part of the labeling. Also, Dr. Mario got even more differences in Ultimate while Dark Pit and Lucina didn't, which may be part of why).

I don't know about Fox and Roy in Melee but just by looking at Melee Marth and Roy they're vastly different due to hitboxes (Roy's being infamously terrible), fall speed, frame data and different properties with up b

 

[Rizen]

What the hell I know Australia is *** backwards with a lot of things anf was dominated by a WFT in 4 but K.Rool won a major? As in, the character who can't really do much against anything?

Battle Arena Melbourne #11 (337 entrants)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't know about Fox and Roy in Melee but just by looking at Melee Marth and Roy they're vastly different due to hitboxes (Roy's being infamously terrible), fall speed, frame data and different properties with up b

But more importantly nearly identical bodyshapes. Which is what the key rule of echoes are. Being "similar" is enough for a regular clone. You could easily have both Falco and Roy as Echoes since they still fit all the parameter requirements. Those extra properties don't really matter for Echo rules anyway. Ganondorf, Pichu, and Young Link don't have identical bodyshapes, which keeps them from that possible label. Obviously even the ones who were most Echo-like got more differences in later games they appeared in. Each one has more tangible differences than any Echo. Chrom is still far more similar than Dr. Mario is.

Though I don't know if anybody knew this, but they took actual custom equipment/moves and applied them to Dr. Mario in Ultimate, making him way more different than in Smash 4.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

But more importantly nearly identical bodyshapes. Which is what the key rule of echoes are. Being "similar" is enough for a regular clone. You could easily have both Falco and Roy as Echoes since they still fit all the parameter requirements. Those extra properties don't really matter for Echo rules anyway. Ganondorf, Pichu, and Young Link don't have identical bodyshapes, which keeps them from that possible label. Obviously even the ones who were most Echo-like got more differences in later games they appeared in. Each one has more tangible differences than any Echo. Chrom is still far more similar than Dr. Mario is.

Though I don't know if anybody knew this, but they took actual custom equipment/moves and applied them to Dr. Mario in Ultimate, making him way more different than in Smash 4.

Irene you're acting like you're the one in charge of this. Roy and Marth are vastly different, not like "Lucina and Marth are interchangeable in Smash 4", not "Lucina benefits from the mechanics significantly more than Marth in Ultimate", but they are outright very different. Stat changes barely exist for the characters labelled as echoes yet in Melee, if Roy went offstage to edgeguard, he'd die as he fell too fast and his recovery was horrendous, Marth is completely different by comparison and there's how they play.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Irene you're acting like you're the one in charge of this. Roy and Marth are vastly different, not like "Lucina and Marth are interchangeable in Smash 4", not "Lucina benefits from the mechanics significantly more than Marth in Ultimate", but they are outright very different. Stat changes barely exist for the characters labelled as echoes yet in Melee, if Roy went offstage to edgeguard, he'd die as he fell too fast and his recovery was horrendous, Marth is completely different by comparison and there's how they play.

The problem is Echoes do have a hard rule of exact same bodyshape. Nothing else is a remote rule, as we've seen with Ken. We thought they needed near identical/same attributes, but that's obviously not correct. Why shouldn't that be equally applied to Roy and Falco, who pretty much that entirely? It's inconsistent.

Either way, I don't think treating Dr. Mario as different from those two if we're going by the definition of Echoes(exact same bodyshape, with nothing else being consistent) makes a lot of sense. We can say all the differences, but they don't mean a can of beans thanks to Ken's existence.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Eh, Falco and Roy didn't have huge differences either. They're on the same level, really.

You can't exactly use Falco and Roy in the same way as Fox and Marth though. And you need to take into account the attribute differences as well.

On a side note, it's still very baffling how Ken is the only Echo Fighter to have different attributes than that of the fighter he's copying (being 1.1x faster on the ground than Ryu). And why Chrom is copying Aether instead of Blazer feels just as strange.

 

[Opossum]

Oddly enough, Dr. Mario is actually balanced the same way Echoes are. Sakurai has been on record stating that Echo Fighters are easier to make because they're only balanced against the base character as opposed to the whole roster.

We know from datamines and Kurogame Hammer that this is exactly how Doc was balanced both in 4 and Ultimate. They literally just plopped the "slower, stronger, heavier" equipment from Smash 4 onto Mario's data and changed 2-3 moves.


So I don't know if it's unpopular exactly, but if Ken can be an echo, I think Dr. Mario should be too.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You can't exactly use Falco and Roy in the same way as Fox and Marth though. And you need to take into account the attribute differences as well.

On a side note, it's still very baffling how Ken is the only Echo Fighter to have different attributes than that of the fighter he's copying (being 1.1x faster on the ground than Ryu). And why Chrom is copying Aether instead of Blazer feels just as strange.

Chrom actually uses a version of Aether in his games, so it makes sense.

Ken isn't too baffling. He has the same mechanic as Ryu, input commands. His were always different. Him being more different could be for many reasons. Maybe Capcom wanted Sakurai to make him far more different due to other games. He's basically the semi-clone of Echoes.

Remember when I said Dr. Mario, Roy, and Falco are the same? It's the same bodyshape. That's the sole rule of Echoes we can apply. I am applying that rule as the only key one if we want to say Echoes existed since Melee.

Oddly enough, Dr. Mario is actually balanced the same way Echoes are. Sakurai has been on record stating that Echo Fighters are easier to make because they're only balanced against the base character as opposed to the whole roster.

We know from datamines and Kurogame Hammer that this is exactly how Doc was balanced both in 4 and Ultimate. They literally just plopped the "slower, stronger, heavier" equipment from Smash 4 onto Mario's data and changed 2-3 moves.


So I don't know if it's unpopular exactly, but if Ken can be an echo, I think Dr. Mario should be too.

Nah, I agree. I think he could've easily been an Echo. We don't have a clear reason why he isn't one, just a ton of theories. Especially when Dark Pit and Lucina could've been regular clones anyway. Overall, it feels like the reasons behind it are probably arbitrary at this point.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Why?

Because he is co-owned by Disney and the Kingdom Hearts series as a whole is a fiasco of a story.

There are much better characters Square could use instead. Rico Rodriguez from Just Cause, for example.

 

[Haden]

"there isnt enough strong female representation in this game"
i face palmed so hard i can smell out the back of my skull.

We got samus, another samus......... another samus. we have marth (lol) and lucina
Rosaluma, peach and peach with a different color.
wii fitness and corrin. isabel inlking girl and palutina the waifu
and most important.
we got cloud (shout outs to anyone who knows the FF7 reference here lmao you da homie)

 

[Idon]

Because he is co-owned by Disney and the Kingdom Hearts series as a whole is a fiasco of a story.

There are much better characters Square could use instead. Rico Rodriguez from Just Cause, for example.

Just Cause has you take down terrorist cells via causing more terrorism, man.

 

[Bonnelle D'Arc]

"there isnt enough strong female representation in this game"
i face palmed so hard i can smell out the back of my skull.

We got samus, another samus......... another samus. we have marth (lol) and lucina
Rosaluma, peach and peach with a different color.
wii fitness and corrin. isabel inlking girl and palutina the waifu
and most important.
we got cloud (shout outs to anyone who knows the FF7 reference here lmao you da homie)

Oof.

When people try to bring identity politics into video games... That never ends well.

Well, it was inevitable anyway. Someone was bound to say something, but it gets tiresome hearing them complain about the little things.

(And if Square doesn't put Cloud in a dress in the FFVII Remake, hell will break loose.)

 

[Guynamednelson]

I believe that if Corrin-induced paranoia turns out to not be pointless, Byleth/Edelgard/whoever will be released separately from the Fighter's Pass.

 

[NoxPT]

I"d rather have Vanilluxe, Chandelure and Sigilyph playable rather than Lucario, Mewtwo and Charizard.

Unpopular opinion:

Those Pokémon kick ass and Gen 5 is awesome!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Remember when I said Dr. Mario, Roy, and Falco are the same? It's the same bodyshape. That's the sole rule of Echoes we can apply. I am applying that rule as the only key one if we want to say Echoes existed since Melee.

Still, it should be noted that while Mario and Dr. Mario can be KO'd at basically the same damage percentages, that's not the case when you compare Fox to Falco, or Marth to Roy; their weight, falling speed, and gravity are completely different.

 

[Xelrog]

There is no rule for echoes. It's a very loose threshold for when a character is deemed "different enough" without any explicit standard in place, and the line was arbitrarily drawn in the tiny space between Ken and Pichu.

Is there any point to theorycrafting otherwise? What's to be achieved here? Getting the devs to move a character on the select screen?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Still, it should be noted that while Mario and Dr. Mario can be KO'd at basically the same damage percentages, that's not the case when you compare Fox to Falco, or Marth to Roy; their weight, falling speed, and gravity are completely different.

I don't see how it matters anyway. Cause the sole Echo rule is "same bodyshape". This is clear enough by Sakurai himself, when explaining why Isabelle couldn't be an Echo. Reggie made an attempt to explain the rules about them, but Ken broke that apart, showing Reggie mispoke or didn't have enough information on how Sakurai does it. Anything else but same bodyshape is not an official rule by Sakurai whatsoever. Anything else is too questionable at this point. Maybe someday Sakurai will make it way more clear than the only rule we got. Till then, that's all that should be applied as an actual rule. Rest are fanrules right now. It doesn't help nobody had a clear idea of what Reggie meant.

 

[Xelrog]

I don't see how it matters anyway. Cause the sole Echo rule is "same bodyshape". This is clear enough by Sakurai himself, when explaining why Isabelle couldn't be an Echo.

Assuming this is a direct quote, then Sakurai BS'd his way out of the question. Villager and Isabelle absolutely have the same body shape.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Assuming this is a direct quote, then Sakurai BS'd his way out of the question. Villager and Isabelle absolutely have the same body shape.

Except they don't. They have a similar bodyshape. There's differences in the proportions. This was proven a long time back by using their exact models(the ones that Smash also happens to use as well in Ultimate, coincidentally), pasted Isabelle on Villager, and she did not work correctly. She was extremely off in her animations. In order for her to work as an Echo, she would need an entirely new model with exact proportions. As I theorized, they didn't bother with a new model and just did the work to make her a semi-clone instead. Exact quote to note too;

"This is because Isabelle and Villager have fundamentally different body types and personalities, so we couldn’t have made her an Echo. All of her animations are different; not a single one is the same."
https://www.sourcegaming.info/2018/09/26/sakurai-discusses-isabelle-echoes-and-newcomers/

I should've used the terms proportions, not bodyshape. I apologize for the confusion on that one.

 

[Just a random scrub]

The problem is Echoes do have a hard rule of exact same bodyshape. Nothing else is a remote rule, as we've seen with Ken. We thought they needed near identical/same attributes, but that's obviously not correct. Why shouldn't that be equally applied to Roy and Falco, who pretty much that entirely? It's inconsistent.

I'm pretty sure Sakurai has described Ken as the outlier amongst the Echos. Something to the effect of, echos aren't normally supposed to be as different from their source fighters as Ken ended up being.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm pretty sure Sakurai has described Ken as the outlier amongst the Echos. Something to the effect of, echos aren't normally supposed to be as different from their source fighters as Ken ended up being.

I'd be interested in a citing of this. I honestly never read it.

But we do know that by that admission, it wouldn't be a hard rule either way. That's more of a soft rule. It means he's willing to make exceptions. Ken was an exception. But we don't know if he'd make another one, so it's not a consistent rule, basically. I hope that explains it well enough. Also, see my above post where he makes it rather clear that proportions(A.K.A. Bodytypes) have to be the same. Coupled with Reggie's statements as well, we got a clear picture of the hard rule.