InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
I forgot how low percent the cars kill at on Port Town.
20%, not even joking. If you get hit in, that just blows.
20%, not even joking. If you get hit in, that just blows.
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~!~ UNOFFICIAL Competitive Tournament Rules - Stage Ban List *UPDATED* ~!~
- Thread starter Dacvak
- Start date
- Status
Heh, I posted a bit back that I was eliminated from brackets in two of my last four tourneys due to low percent deaths on Mute City due to cars, no joke.
And both times it was my fault. I went to attack downward from the air at the time when cars fall from above, when I should have known perfectly well what was coming. In fact, I might have actually died to the SAME CAR the second time, since it was that same part of the stage after all. I should have known better, I deserved to lose for that mistake.
The fact that you can get grabbed and thrown into cars is the point. If your opponent can do that, more power to them. It's just like any other counterpick, from Corneria to Rainbow Cruise. The stage gives an advantage to a certain character and can mess players up, and the object is to MAKE the stage mess them up.
It's one thing if it's like Rumble Falls or Mario Bros. or Wario Ware where the objective is so different and abnormal that the game isn't even the same anymore; they are like smash-themed mini-games. However, Counter-Pick stages, including Port town, are just small variations on smash that test adapability.
And yet again... if someone hates the stage, they can ban it.
EDIT: I recall getting hit with at least 30% by the cars and surviving. Plus, I play jiggs...
Also, I don't have the US version myself; else I probably be playing the stages instead of arguing about them over the internet.
And both times it was my fault. I went to attack downward from the air at the time when cars fall from above, when I should have known perfectly well what was coming. In fact, I might have actually died to the SAME CAR the second time, since it was that same part of the stage after all. I should have known better, I deserved to lose for that mistake.
The fact that you can get grabbed and thrown into cars is the point. If your opponent can do that, more power to them. It's just like any other counterpick, from Corneria to Rainbow Cruise. The stage gives an advantage to a certain character and can mess players up, and the object is to MAKE the stage mess them up.
It's one thing if it's like Rumble Falls or Mario Bros. or Wario Ware where the objective is so different and abnormal that the game isn't even the same anymore; they are like smash-themed mini-games. However, Counter-Pick stages, including Port town, are just small variations on smash that test adapability.
And yet again... if someone hates the stage, they can ban it.
EDIT: I recall getting hit with at least 30% by the cars and surviving. Plus, I play jiggs...
Also, I don't have the US version myself; else I probably be playing the stages instead of arguing about them over the internet.
Ryven
Smash Cadet
Aww, I liked Port Town.
Which characters do you think it favors so heavily that it warrants a ban?
Which characters do you think it favors so heavily that it warrants a ban?
Alright, we'll let that one rest.
Any more thoughts on Delfino's neutrality? I thought it favored characters with fast jumps at first, but playtesting showed that to be a somewhat stupid notion on my part.
Castle Siege still deserves Neutral consideration, but no point talking about it either way until we see more of how DeDeDe works on the stage. If camping and waiting for a walk-off chaingrab is somehow practical, then it probably can't be Neutral.
Honestly though, the only stage left that I feel needs any discussion is Luigi's Mansion. Maybe it's just because I played on it the most, but I can't imagine how people would not consider this stage Neutral. It's very standard in style despite being unique, and doesn't favor any character to a yet noticable degree.
EDIT: Ryvan, read his posts... while I may not agree with his case, it was as clear and obvious as a Falcon Punch.
Any more thoughts on Delfino's neutrality? I thought it favored characters with fast jumps at first, but playtesting showed that to be a somewhat stupid notion on my part.
Castle Siege still deserves Neutral consideration, but no point talking about it either way until we see more of how DeDeDe works on the stage. If camping and waiting for a walk-off chaingrab is somehow practical, then it probably can't be Neutral.
Honestly though, the only stage left that I feel needs any discussion is Luigi's Mansion. Maybe it's just because I played on it the most, but I can't imagine how people would not consider this stage Neutral. It's very standard in style despite being unique, and doesn't favor any character to a yet noticable degree.
EDIT: Ryvan, read his posts... while I may not agree with his case, it was as clear and obvious as a Falcon Punch.
Proteus
Smash Apprentice
I would agree with Delfino and Castle Siege being counterpicks, not neutral. The way the stages change favor certain characters over others. Plus walk-off edges, water...I just don't see them being neutral.
Luigi's Mansion I agree should be neutral. Nothing wrong with this stage in my opinion.
How about Norfair for singles only? The Lava moves slow enough to let you take cover and I'm pretty sure you can just sheild the big wave that covers the whole stage (correct me if I'm wrong though). I think it's worthy counterpick material.
Luigi's Mansion I agree should be neutral. Nothing wrong with this stage in my opinion.
How about Norfair for singles only? The Lava moves slow enough to let you take cover and I'm pretty sure you can just sheild the big wave that covers the whole stage (correct me if I'm wrong though). I think it's worthy counterpick material.
But what characters exactly do Delfino Plaza and Castle Siege favor? Before playing the game, I suspected both would be Counter-Picks, but playing on them with a variety of characters yielded no examples of certain characters having a definite advantage. I can easily see people coming up with things on Delfino Plaza that make it non-Neutral, sort of like Rainbow Cruise. However, the only thing I can see at all being a problem on Castle Siege is DeDeDe's chaingrab to death during transitions and the bottom of the middle part. On both these stages we'll have to wait and see.
I was totally against Norfair being legal until I learned you could shield the lava. (But not airdodge.) Certainly seems okay to me, possibly even for doubles.
I was totally against Norfair being legal until I learned you could shield the lava. (But not airdodge.) Certainly seems okay to me, possibly even for doubles.
Proteus
Smash Apprentice
Fair enough.
I'll need to play more on each of those stages to really decide, but at the least, the transitions in Castle Siege can be awkward, especially between the 3rd and first forms. But they are both fairly neutral.
I'll need to play more on each of those stages to really decide, but at the least, the transitions in Castle Siege can be awkward, especially between the 3rd and first forms. But they are both fairly neutral.
MysticKenji
Smash Master
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPYdDu5B7_0
Castle Siege > Marth (this is probably an isolated incident, though)
Castle Siege > Marth (this is probably an isolated incident, though)
Heh, the very first brawl match I palyed was actually on Castle Siege, and I got screwed over by the unexpected 3rd to 1st transition. Luckily I managed to crazy rollout-to-edge recovery of all things, so I don't hate the stage. 
Only once did someone die, and it was on the 2nd to 3rd transition similar to how Marth died there. It's not something that will happen to players more than once, like a toddler touching a burning stove.
And honestly, that last kill on Marth was tight and totally legit. Major props to that Samus work there.
EDIT: Wonder if it works even better with some people's d-throws?
Only once did someone die, and it was on the 2nd to 3rd transition similar to how Marth died there. It's not something that will happen to players more than once, like a toddler touching a burning stove.
And honestly, that last kill on Marth was tight and totally legit. Major props to that Samus work there.
EDIT: Wonder if it works even better with some people's d-throws?
Pieman0920
Smash Master
Just passing by, and I want to know something. Is there any actual unfairness with water? I've heard that it's hard to escape out of alive, but since it's basically there in place of a bottomless pit, I don't see what's the real problem. =/
Water doesn't seem to be an issue to anyone. Delfino is debatable due to the platform movement and the part with the walkoff edges. Great Sea is CP due to the hazards. Summit has the loop, though people are for some reason more concerned with the fish...
Maben
Smash Journeyman
Norfair seems like a counter-pick stage to me. Is it really so bad that it needs to be banned?
Meh, I don't know about anyone else, but it seemed to me that the Marth player wasn't very good anyway there. Really, if I hadn't known any better, I'd have guessed him to be a computer the way he was sitting around letting Samus charge her beam early in the match. Even that first death of his could likely have been escaped if he had simply Dolphin Slashed the other direction, or waited a little longer to do it so his jump carried him further back.
Zevox
I'll handle all the posts on this page:
Water is fair game. I thought it was difficult to escape at first, but really, just jam on the jump button and you'll get out. It's sort of annoying, but not nearly as annoying as straight-up dying. =P
Yeah, Summit sucks. That's just a terrible stage to begin with. Who would even want to play it? =P
Norfair really just isn't suitable for tournaments. I would imagine that even if it was a counterpick, it would never actually get played. At Chu's tourney, the bans weren't clearly explained, but no one once even tried to play Norfair. To be honest, it's just not that good of a tourney stage. The lava is far too obnoxious and favors the player furthest away from it, in order to knock the other guy into it. Again, it's just not a good tournament stage.
Yeah, that Marth kind of sucked. Either way, Castle Siege certainly isn't Neutral material. It's definitely suited for counterpicks.
To be honest, 90% of the matches will be on either Battlefield or Final D. We're tourney***s, remember? No items, Fox only, Final Destination.
~Dac
Water is fair game. I thought it was difficult to escape at first, but really, just jam on the jump button and you'll get out. It's sort of annoying, but not nearly as annoying as straight-up dying. =P
Yeah, Summit sucks. That's just a terrible stage to begin with. Who would even want to play it? =P
Norfair really just isn't suitable for tournaments. I would imagine that even if it was a counterpick, it would never actually get played. At Chu's tourney, the bans weren't clearly explained, but no one once even tried to play Norfair. To be honest, it's just not that good of a tourney stage. The lava is far too obnoxious and favors the player furthest away from it, in order to knock the other guy into it. Again, it's just not a good tournament stage.
Yeah, that Marth kind of sucked. Either way, Castle Siege certainly isn't Neutral material. It's definitely suited for counterpicks.
To be honest, 90% of the matches will be on either Battlefield or Final D. We're tourney***s, remember? No items, Fox only, Final Destination.
~Dac
WastingPenguins
Smash Ace
Not really-- I foresee just as much play on Smashville at least, and plenty of play on Yoshi's Island and Lylat Cruise. There's this weird misconception that all the pros in Melee play the vast majority of the time on FD. Personally, the pro-level players I know play WAY more Dreamland than anything else.
PR3Y11
Smash Journeyman
LOL
i was reading those comments today in class and started laughing... my prof thought i was ********IK_GOST
Smash Ace
this game sux how about we just play the game for fun and stop worrying about tourneys. In the end you are not who makes the stage list it is the tourney holder. So who cares, JUST BRAWL!
As of right now, I agree with the entire list. Everything on it makes perfect sense to me.
I am of the thought that walk-off ledges should still be banned. Even without waveshining, DK can still cargo-throw you right off the side.
EDIT: Oh yes, I had a question. Do you know if pro-smashers will make or accept created stages into tourneys? It seems like they could easily make some nice stages for tourneys, but it could also get very confusing for various tourneys to add stages or update stages and everything.
Do you know anything about it, or have any thoughts on it in general?
I am of the thought that walk-off ledges should still be banned. Even without waveshining, DK can still cargo-throw you right off the side.
EDIT: Oh yes, I had a question. Do you know if pro-smashers will make or accept created stages into tourneys? It seems like they could easily make some nice stages for tourneys, but it could also get very confusing for various tourneys to add stages or update stages and everything.
Do you know anything about it, or have any thoughts on it in general?
Crom
Smash Journeyman
Not sure if this has been brought up earlier, but shouldn't skyworld be banned? I heard a few characters have dthrows that can spike you through the floor when the platforms are destroyed. Plus when the platforms are up you get the hyrule effect. That and great sea is sort of annoying. It's not hard to avoid the bombs, but they're pretty strong and I don't want that garbage mucking up a good tournament match by killing me or my opponent after some unavoidable situation.
Otherwise, good list
Otherwise, good list
Agreed.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 10,478
Holy crap. The game isn't even out in America yet, and the ban list is that huge? I don't think so. There are no Brawl pro players yet, so I really do not care what Chu feels should be banned.
The only good side to all this is that if the list ever DID shrink way small, the custom stage builder offers an escape.
The only good side to all this is that if the list ever DID shrink way small, the custom stage builder offers an escape.
Gaudion
Smash Apprentice
The N.A. version of the game doesn't need to be out for most of those decisions to be made. It's not rocket science. Very few of these stages are up for any actual kind of reasonable debate, and honestly, a lot of people in this thread are arguing for stages that would have been Melee-banned long ago had they existed.
lavamage
Smash Ace
Why would Shadow Moses be Banned? I could see it as a counter pick, and then both players have to play as characters that they can use to hit their opponenet up off the top
I'd like to mention that Final Destination is possibly my least favorite neutral stage, whether it's Melee or Brawl, though for different reasons in each game.
Is Mushroomy Kingdom really that bad? It seems alright (1-1, anyway. 1-2 is just stupid), since it's not random and the constantly moving stage kinda makes it harder to projectile camp. It's not too much different than Poke Floats, IMO.
Overall, I'm a little upset that Brawl has fewer tournament-viable stages than Melee.
Is Mushroomy Kingdom really that bad? It seems alright (1-1, anyway. 1-2 is just stupid), since it's not random and the constantly moving stage kinda makes it harder to projectile camp. It's not too much different than Poke Floats, IMO.
Overall, I'm a little upset that Brawl has fewer tournament-viable stages than Melee.
Kio Iranez
Smash Ace
Certain characters have infinites with walls (i.e. Falco's Laser Lock).
Yomi-no-Kuni
Smash Lord
i have not followed the debate, and i do not intend to enter it...
just some random thoughts:
1. Walk off edges are STILL bad. e.g. throws(DK cargo as a real bad example), low percent kills due to camping close at the edge, and so on
this said, i do not approve off the Sonic stage.... The random Red-Lights aid in camping and give positional advantages
during a game, the middle gorund can disappear kind of randomly which gives advantages to camping players
allright.. mostly i just dislike this stage
3. It should be discussed wether, or what type of self-made stages are allowed (i would Love to see FD replaced by a self-made FD, due to the edges(i dont mind them, but a whole lot of PPl do, and they can really **** up a game, even if there is nothing random about them))
4. "Everyone only plays FD anyway" ... guess why? because nobody is used to other stages yet... so we shouldnt set our minds upon a few stages yet!
5. I dont know wether Skywold should be allowed
without the platformes you can get randomly spiked through the clouds.
there is a high possibility of you getting stagespiked at not so high percentages
on platform travels through the stage and can save players (might not be random, but pretty much the same as randal the cloud...
The Plattforms could increase your aerial and ground attack lags, leaving you open for a long time, or enabling the opponent to hit you before him (e.g. Ikes Fsmash getting stoped by a platform)
so long
yomi
just some random thoughts:
1. Walk off edges are STILL bad. e.g. throws(DK cargo as a real bad example), low percent kills due to camping close at the edge, and so on
this said, i do not approve off the Sonic stage.... The random Red-Lights aid in camping and give positional advantages
during a game, the middle gorund can disappear kind of randomly which gives advantages to camping players
allright.. mostly i just dislike this stage
3. It should be discussed wether, or what type of self-made stages are allowed (i would Love to see FD replaced by a self-made FD, due to the edges(i dont mind them, but a whole lot of PPl do, and they can really **** up a game, even if there is nothing random about them))
4. "Everyone only plays FD anyway" ... guess why? because nobody is used to other stages yet... so we shouldnt set our minds upon a few stages yet!
5. I dont know wether Skywold should be allowed
without the platformes you can get randomly spiked through the clouds.
there is a high possibility of you getting stagespiked at not so high percentages
on platform travels through the stage and can save players (might not be random, but pretty much the same as randal the cloud...
The Plattforms could increase your aerial and ground attack lags, leaving you open for a long time, or enabling the opponent to hit you before him (e.g. Ikes Fsmash getting stoped by a platform)
so long
yomi
WastingPenguin, that line was really meant as a joke. Smashville is a FANTASTIC stage, you're right.
True Fool, personally, I doubt we'll see many created stages surface in tournaments since everyone will be playing on different Wiis, and I know for sure that no tourney director will allow you to waste time creating a stage just for your match. However, if there are already stages there, and both players agree to it (no johns), I don't see why- BRB I just got a phone call that my m*dd*d Wii is fixed.
True Fool, personally, I doubt we'll see many created stages surface in tournaments since everyone will be playing on different Wiis, and I know for sure that no tourney director will allow you to waste time creating a stage just for your match. However, if there are already stages there, and both players agree to it (no johns), I don't see why- BRB I just got a phone call that my m*dd*d Wii is fixed.
Yomi-no-Kuni
Smash Lord
well, isnt there a funktion that allows you to share Stages
or there could be a few stages you can built after a plan, so that they are tourney legal
or there could be a few stages you can built after a plan, so that they are tourney legal
Continued:
I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed in a tourney. There may be a rule where you can't random or counterpick a created stage, but if the two players agree to it, then no problem (but no johns after).
Crom, I'm not sure why some people want Skyworld banned. I've played on it a lot. It's certainly no neutral stage, but there's nothing that truly warrants a ban. In fact, it was played a great deal at the tournament. I must have seen at least 5 different matches on Skyworld. The only major problem is that it hampers the recovery of characters who need to tether to get back, like Ivysaur and Zamus, but that's why counterpicks aren't neutral, and that's why those players will probably ban that one.
Buzz, this is, in no way, official. This is just what worked so far. And, I mean, it really isn't bad. What stages did you want that got "banned"?
lavamage, Shadow Moses is really just an awful stage. It's like playing in the lower area of Hyrule, only in reverse, which is worse. Plus, it's virtually impossible for players like Samus to get a kill, since she has no upward-sending moves.
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 would probably be counterpick, but 1-2 is so insanely banned. If we ever figure out a way to only pick 1-1, this list might change.
~Dac
WarioWare has random auto-applied items (such as a star or mushrooms) that are completely randomly applied to you after you either win or lose a minigame. That equals a random element to the stage that is 100% unavoidable.
GG.
~Dac
M.K
Level 55
Something in me thinks Rumble Falls could be counterpick, it isn't as random as you think it is. Unless it directly tells you when it speeds up (which it does), it moves at a constant rate of speed.
I don't want to read through all these pages, but if this is the reason it is banned, than I hope you reconsider!
I don't want to read through all these pages, but if this is the reason it is banned, than I hope you reconsider!
Rumble Falls will always be banned for the same reason as Wario Ware and Mario Bros: it changes the core gamplay dynamics and objectives of the match enough that is doesn't resemble the rest of the game enough to be in a smash tourney. Counter-picking Mario Bros. would make as much sense as counter-picking say, a stage from Mario Party 8.
MysticKenji
Smash Master
I'd like some commentary on PictoChat.
How is it?
How is it?
Pieman0920
Smash Master
Pictochat probably is getting banned for the same reason Brinstar Depths did. It creates random advantages and disadvantages at any given time.
SothE700k
Smash Lord
Wow...keep banning stages, all we will have IS Final Destination...
Edit: No, scratch that. The way its going now, we won't even HAVE a FD due to its screwy edges.
Edit: No, scratch that. The way its going now, we won't even HAVE a FD due to its screwy edges.
Yomi-no-Kuni
Smash Lord
i´d be perfectly fine with that...
i dont need stages like wario ware or Picto chat for tourney play...
i´d love to have the top 4 stages and lylat system (and some other neutral stages) as available stages
i dont need stages like wario ware or Picto chat for tourney play...
i´d love to have the top 4 stages and lylat system (and some other neutral stages) as available stages
Super Drybones
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2008
- Messages
- 555
ZOMFG A STAGE HITS YOU FOR 1hp
BANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some of those Counter Stages should be banned IMO. Green Hill Zone is a walk-off. Other stages have "temporary walk-offs" which is still a walk-off (Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza).
But Great Sea is the number one stage on that list that needs to be banned.
Although Sky World is almost neutral in appearance, I wouldn't argue with anyone who wants to ban it. Once you play on it you understand.
But Great Sea is the number one stage on that list that needs to be banned.
Although Sky World is almost neutral in appearance, I wouldn't argue with anyone who wants to ban it. Once you play on it you understand.
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