~!~ UNOFFICIAL Competitive Tournament Rules - Stage Ban List *UPDATED* ~!~

[Dacvak]

Just to point out, I don't know where this list came from, but it is 100% not Smash Back Room approved. Stage discussion is currently the main focus, and while things are still in discussion, the number of banned stages are IN NO WAY as HUGE as the list in this topic. I've also editted the title a bit to hopefully clarify that this is in no way AT ALL official.

Neutrals:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium - Melee
Rainbow Cruise - Melee (Teams only)

Counterpicks:
Delfino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion
Pirate Ship
Norfair
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Castle Siege
Green Hill Zone (Teams only)
Jungle Japes - Melee
Corneria - Melee
Rainbow Cruise - Melee (Singles only)
Green Greens - Melee
Brinstar - Melee

Banned:
Mushroomy Kingdom
Mario Circuit
Rumble Falls
Bridge of Eldin
Pokemon Stadium 2
Spear Pillar
Port Town Aero Dive
Skyworld
WarioWare, Inc.
Distant Planet
Summit
75m
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Pictochat
Hanenbow
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone (Singles only)
Temple - Melee
Yoshi's Island - Melee
Onett - Melee
Big Blue - Melee


As always, everyone is free to play whatever stages they want and use any list they'd like for their own tournaments.


~Dac

 

[Kruton]

There's no way Norfair should be banned in 1v1s. Or the Halbred.

Actually, this "official" list sucks really bad, there's several stages that are counter-pick worthy that you have banned.

 

[Kruton]

Edit: Double post

Oh well, might make something of it...

WTF@MARIO CIRCUIT AND BRIDGE OF ELDIN BANNED?

wtf man.

 

[Kruton]

Have you even played this game?

 

[Dacvak]

Relax for a second, we're not here to bash, just debate.

Halberd is an interesting stage, because it has the appearance of a tourney-legal stage but also has some random sh*t that can kill you, which typically means banned. Most competitive players agree. Keep in mind, this list is not just me. It's been carefully formulated between pros and competitive players, and it's still open for discussion.

Norfair is just a crappy stage that caters to certain characters and has random lava that can kill/injure you. It's, in no way, tournament legal.

~Dac

Edit: Wow, nice triple post. Going for some sort of record?

Bridge of Eldin and Mario Circuit both have walk-off ledges and random obstacles. However, I believe we could open them up for consideration.

 

[Kruton]

Nothing on the Halbred is 'random'. Everything on there is about as random as the canons and the spring launch on Great Sea. You can see whatever is coming at you from a mile away.

Norfair is no different than Brinstar, which was CP in Melee. If anything the lava is more timid, it's only when you have to get cover is the lava so damaging.

Walk of stages were only banned in Melee because of waveshine, and other abusable techs. There's nothing wrong with them in Brawl as of now. Plus, you have Green Hill Zone as a playable stage, and it's walk off.

Oh, and if you aren't being attacked, and you get hit by King Bulbin, you deserve a smack in the face. Even IF you do get hit by him, he has NO KO power. Nothing on Bridge of Eldin is "random". Bulbin drops a bomb, some suicide bomber goblin thing waddles in and blows it up. Repeat. Done.

Mario Circuit has the racers on a radar screen in the background, so you can see them coming if you're paying attention too. Plus, their knockback is absolutely nothing compared to the F-Zero stage.

And where is all this research being done? How many people that PLAYED the game have put time into this list? I've seen a list from dmbrandon, who owns the game, and his stage bans are way less severe compared to this. There's 42 stages, people need to stop whining about how some of them work.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time telling whether or not Luigi's Mansion is green or yellow. If it's green........ : )

Other than that, this pretty much turned out how I expected it to.

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

I agree with battlefield and FD has obvvious neutrals. Delfino is debatable as a neutral. I tohught it would be a counterpick, but i can understand it as a neutral. Dedede can chaingrab on the walls on various locations, but it is about as random as pokemon stadium was on melee so that can kind of balance it out. Luigi's mansion should be a counterpick. Mario Circuit, i don't understand why it's banned. It would make a reasonable counterpick, similiar to Mute City in melee possibly. it's certainly more usable than port town. But then again, dedede can just chaingrab people off the sides so eh, i dunno. I don't see why pirate ship is a CP though, it should be banned for stage hazards. frigate is a good CP. yoshi's good neutral. I thought halberd would make a counterpick, but the sudden blastoff in the beginning along with the stage hazards make it reasonable as a ban (although i could see it changing) Lylat is a good neutral. Looks like I agree with all the other stages and how they are as well. Although, Pokemon Stadium 1 has a ******** windmill now that is impassable from al direcitons except above, it makes an obstacle for larger characters such as Dedede (who, is already responsible for banning half the stages)

 

[Dacvak]

First off, Kruton, these stages have been carefully picked by pros and competitive Smashers who own the game. No one else. They've been carefully debated. Also, I don't think you've looked at the updated list.

Luigi's Mansion is counterpick as of now.

GG7, Delfino was originally counterpick but got changed to neutral after discussing it with M2K. It's not very random and the stage transformations are all timed and not difficult to accommodate for. Luigi's Mansion is counterpick. Maybe my coloring needs work. =P

I had Halbeld banned at first, but the debate was that all the hazards are easily avoidable and sheildable. It's still up for discussion.

I think the Wind Waker stage might be banned, though, later on. The hazards are less avoidable and more random and do a lot of damage. Still open for debate.

The changing of the list is really only being considered by serious competitive Smashers and pros who can back up their opinions, which is why I debated whether or not to put it on Smashboards since 90% of the people here are scrubs. =P But I'm getting some good feedback here, and you offered a lot of insight that will definitely be considered, GG7.

Thanks,

~Dac

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Insert whining.

Are you even going to be a tournament player? I doubt you're going to be good enough to have this list affect the outcome of any of your matches.

This list isn't in stone yet, so just calm your *** down. The game isn't even out in America/Europe yet. This is just the foundation.

 

[homer2020]

Shouldn't Pictochat be a counterpick stage? If there is a reason for Pictochat being banned I'd like to know. Some stages it is pretty difficult to see whether or not it is green or yellow. Also walk off stages do not need to be banned unless there is another reason for its banned status as there is no way of doing infinite shines (at least when it's not against a wall).

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

Glad you liked my insight dacvak. i dunno if i mentioned it earlier but i do have the game hence my opinions on the stages. hopefully we'll see some changes if they're necessary. good luck

 

[Rakath]

I don't think the Melee Stages should just auto remain the same, Brinstar is now smaller (correction, characters are bigger) making the play change, and Waveshine should no longer hound Onett or Yoshi.

Personally I'd like a text list of Random-Neutral, Counter, Banned simply as for people like me who have some issues with colors can easily tell what's what. As I rightly can't tell what Shadow Moses is (assuming its banned due to how loved it is) and a few others.

 

[ZeldaDestiny]

why is green Hills a counter pick? they only thing that happens is the ground disappears and reappears. The only character that *might* have a problem with that is Bowser, (Or Zelda if she gets tp screwed, but thst's life with Zelda)

 

[Dacvak]

Homer, Pictochat is banned because it randomly draws obstacles that can injure and even kill you. It's a shame, too, because I love that stage. >_>

Rakath, as of right now Melee bans are staying the same because we'd like to tackle the Brawl stages first. Walkoffs are still under heavy debate, but stages like Green Hill Zone and Edlin seem alright. However, Mario Circuit is a little too hectic and random for tournament play. If the cars appeared less frequently it might be open for consideration.

Zelda, Green Hill is counterpick because of the walkoffs and checkpoint pole, which could give characters like Pit a slight advantage if trying to activate the checkpoint. GHZ is even borderline as a counterpick, but it does seem pretty playable.

I'll work on making a text-based list for people having trouble with the colors.

~Dac

 

[Drephen]

1.) how is this "official?"

2.) why are you choosing what stages belong?

3.) who the **** is dacvak?

 

[webrunner]

Rakath, as of right now Melee bans are staying the same because we'd like to tackle the Brawl stages first. Walkoffs are still under heavy debate, but stages like Green Hill Zone and Edlin seem alright. However, Mario Circuit is a little too hectic and random for tournament play. If the cars appeared less frequently it might be open for consideration.

How can something that has exactly zero random elements be "too random"?

Zelda, Green Hill is counterpick because of the walkoffs and checkpoint pole, which could give characters like Pit a slight advantage if trying to activate the checkpoint. GHZ is even borderline as a counterpick, but it does seem pretty playable.


~Dac

The checkpoint pole from what I've seen is one of the least important stage hazards, it's almost completely ignorable. I'd say that ranged characters have more of an advantage on something like FD then on Green Hill, so maybe FD should be a counterpick?

 

[Dacvak]

Drephen, it's still currently open for debate, however this is what we'll be basing the official list off of in the future. I am not the one choosing the stages. It's a collaboration between numerous competitive and pro Smashers. If you'd like to know which ones, you can personally AIM or PM me and I'll inform you.

Webrunner, Mario Circuit is still up for debate. I suppose "random" wasn't the right word, but unless you're specifically timing it, it really can appear to be random. Read the updated first post for the reasoning behind Mario Circuit's ban as of now.

~Dac

 

[Rakath]

The cycle on Mario Circut is easy to read, noted in the stage itself, and easy to avoid. If you and your opponent move to the bottom of the stage right after the cars complete the bottom run, then move to the top stage right after the cars finish the top run the only way the cars would be an issue is if someone manually spikes/throws you into the car stream.

Which can be done on a place like Brinstar, so it does seem a non-starter arguement as it isn't random.

Castle Siege does tweak projectile game, but stages with platforms/walls do that anyway. Is Siege any worse for a projectile game than the fin in Corneria or the burning tree in Pokemon Stadium? It kinda seems like people just wanna complain about it without guaging how much of a difference it is. I mean, considering you can hide behind the fin for a while, the statues eventually shatter.

 

[Dacvak]

Personally, I'm ok with Mario Circuit being a counterpick. Really, the major problem is the cars that fly overhead. Since Brawl is such an aerial game now, you can spend as much time trying to avoid those that you do trying to fight your enemy. Plus, we're all still unsure as to how effective DeDeDe's chaingrab is. If perfect timing will literally disable the opponent from moving or doing anything, then all straight walkoff stages may be banned.

My personal thoughts on Castle Siege were that it should be counterpick, however more pros and competitive Smashers have agreed that it should be neutral.

~Dac

 

[Rakath]

You wanted more comment on Halberd, I've never seen anyone 'accidentally' KO'd in videos by the Multi-cannon, the more pressing issue is the platform launch (start of match from Hangar, and off the deck of the Halberd). Which can be compared to getting stuck on the top of Rainbow Ride at the end when you find the ship again. Which really just translates into heavy bad recoveries like Bowser and Ike NOT GETTING CAUGHT off the platform.

And as a Kirby fan when I get the game I will be testing that stage a lot.

Norfair however, I agree should be banned. If it was just a new Brinstar it'd be fine, however the Safezone kills it, as its punishes slows or rewards lucky people (standing near it as it appears).

 

[Jinx]

Nothing on the Halbred is 'random'. Everything on there is about as random as the canons and the spring launch on Great Sea. You can see whatever is coming at you from a mile away.

And where is all this research being done? How many people that PLAYED the game have put time into this list? I've seen a list from dmbrandon, who owns the game, and his stage bans are way less severe compared to this. There's 42 stages, people need to stop whining about how some of them work.

Nothing is random on Halberd? I thought who the claw chose to attack was random, as was who was targeted by the laser. I'm not too sure about the bomb, b/c I haven't paid much attention to where it lands (seems to always land in the middle).

Dacvak has the game. He told me M2K was also giving input, as was I. That's 2 more. He said there were a bunch of others he just didn't want to list off b/c he didn't want people to just assume that he was posting since "XXX" said something that we should automatically take his word for it since it's "XXX" & he was a SSBM pro.

 

[NinjaLink]

Distant planet should be up for debate. The rain doesnt kill. In fact i use it for strategy. The Bulbax or whatever on the right is not a real threat.

 

[NinjaLink]

You wanted more comment on Halberd, I've never seen anyone 'accidentally' KO'd in videos by the Multi-cannon, the more pressing issue is the platform launch (start of match from Hangar, and off the deck of the Halberd). Which can be compared to getting stuck on the top of Rainbow Ride at the end when you find the ship again. Which really just translates into heavy bad recoveries like Bowser and Ike NOT GETTING CAUGHT off the platform.

And as a Kirby fan when I get the game I will be testing that stage a lot.

Norfair however, I agree should be banned. If it was just a new Brinstar it'd be fine, however the Safezone kills it, as its punishes slows or rewards lucky people (standing near it as it appears).

Norfair u can shield the lava and jump over it. Not much of an issue. U dont need the safezone. Btw the laser on halberd u can shield the entire blast.

 

[webrunner]

Webrunner, Mario Circuit is still up for debate. I suppose "random" wasn't the right word, but unless you're specifically timing it, it really can appear to be random. Read the updated first post for the reasoning behind Mario Circuit's ban as of now.

~Dac

As was noted before, you don't have to time for it, since the level does it for you - the screen in the background shows the exact location of every car on the track.

 

[Thinkaman]

On one hand, my initial reaction mirrored Drephen's... Seriously, who the expletive of your choice are you?

Whatever though, this is actually the most logical stage discussion I've seen (to my surprise), since most of full of opinions and knee-jerk reactions. Still a few arguments on my part, in order of importance:

1. Mario Circuit is DEFINATELY counter-pick. The karts are the least random hazard in the game, given that a map in the background shows where they are... I'm not sure in any of our matches that anyone has EVER been hit by one...

2. Port Town and Norfair I think should be counterpick, and Distant Planet too while we are at it. None of these "omg giant scary hazards" are random or unfair. People who don't like them can opt to ban the stage.

3. Luigi's Mansion should be considered neutral. The stage does give advantage to some characters, but the speed and ease at which the level can be destroyed eliminates this. Keep in mind that if a light character is camping the inside of the mansion to survive, they are unable to stop you from destroying it from the side unless they leave their campy spot to begin with...

4. Pokemon Stadium 2, Shadow Moses, and Electroplankton are being overlooked imo. They are very biased stages, but I don't see them being so overly biased that it gives an instant win to certain characters. Plus, they can be banned! If you hate low gravity on Stadium, ban it; if you know your opponent plays as Fox or Pikachu or the Vertical-Killer-of-the-Week, ban Shadow Moses. If they are being banned extremely often and causing problems, we can just ban them in general.

5. I would put Frigate on Neutral. There is a thread discussing this.

Glad to see Castle Seige on Neutral though. This stage is how Pokemon Stadium should be done, and people seem skeptical to believe that it is a very balanced stage for no good reason.

 

[Jinx]

3. Luigi's Mansion should be considered neutral. The stage does give advantage to some characters, but the speed and ease at which the level can be destroyed eliminates this. Keep in mind that if a light character is camping the inside of the mansion to survive, they are unable to stop you from destroying it from the side unless they leave their campy spot to begin with...

4. Pokemon Stadium 2, Shadow Moses, and Electroplankton are being overlooked imo. They are very biased stages, but I don't see them being so overly biased that it gives an instant win to certain characters. Plus, they can be banned! If you hate low gravity on Stadium, ban it; if you know your opponent plays as Fox or Pikachu or the Vertical-Killer-of-the-Week, ban Shadow Moses. If they are being banned extremely often and causing problems, we can just ban them in general.

Luigi's Mansion has a Hyrule effect with the ceilings. PS2 I guess a lot of people are disliking mostly b/c of the wind stage. Shadow Moses = Snake's stage, right? If so, then Shadow Moses gives an advantage to characters with better vertical KO ability. I haven't played much of Electroplankton, so can't really comment much on that.

 

[BUM163]

mario kart stage is not hetic. yo 4 real ya b tryin 2 make this game into street fighter. ya wanna play street fighter go play street fighter. thatz like stoppin football cuz the rain or snow is an interference. you can dodge the lava n block it in norfair. mario kart stage, you can hit the karts n they fly off the stage n sometimes don't come back for quite some time.

the whole point of this game is that ur not only fighting ur opponent, but also if the stage has hazzards that also. if it wasn't pose to be that way, then sakurai could of just easily put all stages like final d and put no hazzards.

why is port town banned? cause the cars kill you at 60 percent if you get hit? the cars in that stage have a set path. whatever part they come, if they do come is always the same guranteed and i call it out on every part cause i did the research. go see for yourself. the cars come only in four parts n their is always a way to avoid them. anyway regardless of how ya do it.. i'm gonna still play. i just don't wanna see the same 4 stages like how it was in melee. especially with this game slow paced, thatz gonna get boring quick.

also shadow moses you can break the wall, except you can do infinites there and if so just ban it. i feel though if their is gonna be more stages. you should be allow 2 bans. if not and if there are infinites.... there will be alot of dedede guranteed just cause of the down throw chain grab.

remember this game is like football, if ur a competitor, you gonna beat the dude regardless of what comes ur way, whether itz lava, cars, lasers, anything. i know wat ya mean by interference, but of course people are gonna play this game for years, so just practice the stages and you should b fine..... unless your stupid.

 

[DAlegendarysamus]

Wow The Game Has Not Even Came Out Yet In The Us And Already The Bs

WELL EVERYONE GET READY FOR SOME WACK TOURNAMENTS


Banned:
Mushroomy Kingdom
Mario Circuit
Rumble Falls
Norfair
Pokemon Stadium 2
Port Town
Wario Ware
Distant Planet
New Pork City
The Summit
Pictochat
Shadow Moses Island
Donkey Kong Arcade
Spear Pillar
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Electroplankton


THAT BANNED LIST IS HORRIBLE LOL HOW DO U BAN


Mushroomy Kingdom
Mario Circuit
Norfair
Pokemon Stadium 2
Distant Planet
The Summit MAYBE
Pictochat
Shadow Moses Island
Spear Pillar MAYBE
Electroplankton

YOU GUYZ ARE really bugging those stages aren't bad lol smash is about being able to be aware of your character your opponents character and your environment. This game is not street fighter so please stop trying to make it that way by banning good stages and keep only stages with like almost no hazzards cause what is going to happen your going to get ppl trying to just camp and what not but with the stages that u have ban along with the stages u have on they wont be able to really stay in one spot and juice the clock they have to learn to fight and also use the stage to their advantage or be able to fight while dodging stage hazzards.

 

[Rakath]

This is why we have the N-C-B system, You listed a bunch of stages that could be counterpick as if they were 'balanced'. The thing is that Electroplankton murders Olimar and Ivysaur, having that show up in the Random Stage pick would SUCK for Olimar players, they have NO other recover but the Chain. Summit is the SAME BLOODY ISSUE.

Spear Pillar is banned beyond all things, its like Warioware Banned. There is no way you can think to say with a straight face that it is a natural and boring stage it has too many variables and too many BEAMS OF DEATH to be Neutral.

Mushroomy Kingdom can never be 'selected' as you can get either the rather tame and fair 1-1, or the boxy and long-fight 1-2.

Neutral is for stages that have no crazy hazards or huge space. Counter is for stages that offset advantage to a certain character to force your opponent out of their standard pick (or to just force them into a handicap scenario). Banned are stages that are too crazy or one-sided to be allowed. By your logic Big Blue should be RN, and that would make even the Spartans think this is nuts.

 

[BUM163]

my tournaments i will have different rules and more stages. my tournaments will be in ny and won't be bullcrap like as what u see at the top.

 

[BUM163]

my tournaments i will have different rules and more stages. my tournaments will be in ny and won't be bullcrap like as what u see at the top.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

Oh shi- DA's here, now it's a party. *grabs popcorn*

 

[Rhubarbo]

Terrible Neutral picks. Here is my list:

Neutral:
Battle Field-Simple stage
Final Destination-Simple stage
Yoshi's Island-Simple stage
Lylat Cruise-Simple stage
Smashville-Simple stage
Pokemon Stadium (Melee)-Wall on transformation not long enough to ruin match

Counter Picks:
Delfino Plaza-Few walk-offs, stage transforms decently
Great Sea-Transformations not game breaking
Norfair-Can escape lava with skill
Battle Ship Halberd-Good transformations, hazards do not change game
Port Town-Quick transformations but fair, can see F-zero racers
Picto Chat-weird but fair
Rainbow Cruise-gently moving, barely walk off
Green Greens-Apples can be accessed by all, don't charge Smash attacks by blocks...
Big Blue-Gives many opportunities to jump cars
Brinstar-Lava is fair
Frigate Orpheon-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhtPSPm1gjc (look at 1:00 I believe.)

Unsure, probably Counterpickable:
Lugi's Mansion-Breakable stage
Distant Planet-One Walk-off
Summit-Wall
Jungle Japes-Current
Corneria-Wall
Castle Siege-1/3 walk off, basement has weird balancing effect

Banned Stages:
Mushroomy Kingdom-scrolling, whole thing is walk off
Mario Circuit-Walk off
Rumble Falls-Scrolling upwards, walk off most of the time
Bridge of Eldin-Walk off
Pokemon Stadium 2-Gravity, Ice, Conveyer Belts
Spear Piller-Slowing down time, loop, randoms stage assaults
Wario Ware-Lol (definitely the most fun stage in the game)
New Pork City-Just like Ridley...
Sky World-Breakable stage, camping platform, throw-through platforms
75m-refer to Wario Ware
Mario Bros-Low ceiling, walk offs, interfering foes, POW block
Flat Zone 2-Small boundries
Electro Plankton-Bouncing platorms, weird effects
Shadow Mosses Island-Walk offs, blocked edges
Green Hill Zone-Random ground breaking, walk offs
Temple (Melee)-Just like Ridley
Yoshi's Island (Melee)-Walk-off, game breaking curve
Onnet (Melee)-Walk off

I didn't do doubles yet.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Btw, everyone thinks that Delfino is a counter pick. It has walk-offs and swimming.

 

[Jinx]

Terrible Neutral picks. Here is my list:

Neutral:
Battle Field-Simple stage
Final Destination-Simple stage
Yoshi's Island-Simple stage
Lylat Cruise-Simple stage
Smashville-Simple stage
Pokemon Stadium (Melee)-Wall on transformation not long enough to ruin match

You realize that your list is just his minus 2, right?

 

[Cosmo!]

how the **** do you ban pictochat. that is garbage.

 

[(NYC)Fab]

I dont get why people wanna ban stages for these little baby hazards. This game is gonna be mad wack in tourney. honestly if yall cant deal with these things that happen on the stages than yall really shouldn't play this game. Come to chinatown arcade ill buy you 2 tokens play street figher and complain that ya getting combo'ed to much and than ban combos. Dumb fu<ks.

 

[BUM163]

people are stupid. pictochat doesn't have anything really that kills and if so is avoidable. people make excuses about stages... you know what's so funny though. if they lose they so oh my controller is not working today, oh i was just playing around, i don't take this serious, oh i mess up alot so he won lmao.

thatz the whole point of any game. the person that messes up less wins and that makes you the better player. ya need to stop this bull**** already. man up for real.

 

[Rhubarbo]

I dont get why people wanna ban stages for these little baby hazards. This game is gonna be mad wack in tourney. honestly if yall cant deal with these things that happen on the stages than yall really shouldn't play this game. Come to chinatown arcade ill buy you 2 tokens play street figher and complain that ya getting combo'ed to much and than ban combos. Dumb fu<ks.

The only way a stage can be banned by stage hazards is if they interfere with the game too much. Hypothetically speaking, if Norfair lava is deemed un-avoidable, it might be banned.