~!~ UNOFFICIAL Competitive Tournament Rules - Stage Ban List *UPDATED* ~!~

[-9Volt+]

*** this game how about that???

Nice flame, don't feed the troll.

In response to an actual post, I think certain parts of Pokestadium 2 make it counterpickable. unfortunatly, the electric part makes it near impossible to recover from the ledge. Being that the ledge game is the easiest part of Brawl, I, personally, think that it's unfair. Also, on the wind one, I think characters with multiple jumps are given a huge advantage. Those are the only parts that I remember from that stage. Why'd you have to go and break brawl, Dac? T_T

 

[Meteor!]

These are my opinions:

Temple: Ban
Yoshi's Island: Ban for walk-off, blocks interfere but aren't the primary reason it's banned
Coreneria: Un-certain, Arwings come to let people out of infinities on walls, let's wait and see
Green Greens: Counerpick, you can't abuse the walls because they break
Onnet: Ban, walk-offs encourage back throw camping, simply jump cars, walk-offs eliminate recoveries
Rainbow Ride: Counterpick (I don't like it at all, but it's a counterpick never the less)
Jungle Japes: Counterpick, when you start swimming you can jump out of the water
Pokemon Stadium: Neutral, possibly counterpick if walls start to be abuses, but walls don't last long enough
Big Blue: Ban
Brinstar: Counterpick

Have you played these stages? It's very easy to infinite against the blocks on Green Greens without breaking them. Jungle Jape's water moves so fast that by the time you can jump out, some characters are swept too far away to recover.

DI doesn't affect Dedede's down throw.

Shadow Moses should be banned for both the walls and the walk off edges.

All the transitions on Pokemon Stadium 2 are ridiculous. The electric one in particular will pretty much kill you if you trip on the conveyor belts.

 

[-9Volt+]

I agree with Meteor! here. Though I'm not sure we've completely figured out DI, if DDD can chaingrab that character, he will. Also, not to mention that the camping on Japes made it like...the least fun stage ever. (I'm talking to you, Ohio!)

 

[Meteor!]

Jungle Japes, Corneria, and Green Greens were my top three counterpicks in Melee, but they all deseve bans in Brawl.

 

[-9Volt+]

Then you obviously haven't played a peach ditto on Japes, lol.

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

Have you played these stages? It's very easy to infinite against the blocks on Green Greens without breaking them. Jungle Jape's water moves so fast that by the time you can jump out, some characters are swept too far away to recover.

DI doesn't affect Dedede's down throw.

Shadow Moses should be banned for both the walls and the walk off edges.

All the transitions on Pokemon Stadium 2 are ridiculous. The electric one in particular will pretty much kill you if you trip on the conveyor belts.

Completely agree with this post, especially the BS with Pokemon Stadium 2. Knew it was going to be banned the moment they updated about it.

 

[Johnknight1]

Basically, let's just do Melee returning stages for now. Ban all Melee banned stages EXCEPT Corneria, and we'll cover that. Put every other stage back in their old category.

Pokémon Stadium is still neutral. Heck, it's probably more neutral. Onett (it's the same as Melee, but smaller, for less camping; it was legal in Melee, people), Rainbow Ride, (even more neutral) Yoshi's Island (a little better; but it still sucks; it was Melee tournament legal, so stop whinning, and saying we shoud ban walk offs, when percentage-wise walk-offs are legal about as much as non walk-off stages.), Kongo Jungle (definitely improved), and Green Greens (a bit better) are all still counter-pick class stages. Big Blue (a lot better; but it still sucks) and Hyrule Castle (if this stage was cut in 3 or 4, it'd be perfect; too big still ) still look like tournament-banned ones.

Corneria is a BIG QUESTION MARK! It was tournament banned if I remember correctly, but it's smaller, more balanced, and it's harder to combo off the wall. I think it looks a lot more balanced. I think it's probably going to actually be tournament legal as a counter-pick stage. But, that's just mere speculation.

Also, Brinstar could be neutral (very, very, very unlikely), so it's probably still a counter-pick, since it isn't glitchy anymore (though it's smaller).

All in all, just chill. We still know nothing about Brawl, lol! No need to get tense. But ya, Hyrule: Castle and Big Blue are the only definte tournament stage bans. And stop being so picky against walk off stages. We'll find a way to stop King Dedede's chain grabbing.

~His Knightlyness Himself~

-Johnknight1

 

[M.K]

If you are stupid enough to get hit or go anywhere near the Bulborb, you deserve to die.

Distant Planet is couterpick, most definetly.

 

[Dacvak]

It's tough to please everyone on the boards, so myself and a select few will discuss it over the weekend and create an unofficial list that people can choose to follow or ignore. It will be the guide for the Brawl4All online tournaments until the BR or MLG create an official list.

~Dac

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Ugh, I hate reading these threads on stage neutrality. Look, you people are WAY too ban-happy. The SBR is working on a list that we may or may not release soon after Brawl comes out... and lets just say, for example, that one of the stages in your ban list may even become a neutral. Remember, the reasons why stages were banned in Melee do NOT transfer to Brawl.

 

[Tinkerer]

Double post :\

 

[Tinkerer]

Why is Electroplankton even banned? It's just a bunch of platforms.

And I agree with SamuraiPanda. You folks seem to transfer all Melee's reasons into Brawl, while Brawl doesn't work like Melee.

 

[Fonz]

Corneria is a BIG QUESTION MARK! It was tournament banned if I remember correctly

You don't. Corneria was always and still is a common melee counterpick. You listed Onett as not banned as well. It wasn't banned a few years ago but after MLG banned it in I think 2006 it became a standard banned stage at almost every tourney.

 

[-9Volt+]

Basically, let's just do Melee returning stages for now. Ban all Melee banned stages EXCEPT Corneria, and we'll cover that. Put every other stage back in their old category.

I'm going to take this one stage at a time.

Pokémon Stadium is still neutral. Heck, it's probably more neutral.

Correct! Good start!

Onett (it's the same as Melee, but smaller, for less camping; it was legal in Melee, people)

Oh, so close. It was banned in Melee.

Rainbow Ride, (even more neutral)

Only neutral in 2v2. Guess we didn't specify though.

Yoshi's Island (a little better; but it still sucks; it was Melee tournament legal, so stop whinning, and saying we shoud ban walk offs, when percentage-wise walk-offs are legal about as much as non walk-off stages.),

Sorry, it was also banned in Melee. Did you even play Melee?

Kongo Jungle (definitely improved),

I'm assuming you mean Japes. With the swimming effect, doesn't that make the stage worse?

Green Greens (a bit better) are all still counter-pick class stages.

I'm ok with them being counter pick stages.

Big Blue (a lot better; but it still sucks) and Hyrule Castle (if this stage was cut in 3 or 4, it'd be perfect; too big still ) still look like tournament-banned ones.

Nailed the obvious ones.

Corneria is a BIG QUESTION MARK! It was tournament banned if I remember correctly, but it's smaller, more balanced, and it's harder to combo off the wall. I think it looks a lot more balanced. I think it's probably going to actually be tournament legal as a counter-pick stage. But, that's just mere speculation.

Corneria is a counterpick in Melee.

Also, Brinstar could be neutral (very, very, very unlikely), so it's probably still a counter-pick, since it isn't glitchy anymore (though it's smaller).

I don't remember any Brinstar glitches. If they were obvious ones, it would have been banned.

All in all, just chill. We still know nothing about Brawl, lol! No need to get tense. But ya, Hyrule: Castle and Big Blue are the only definte tournament stage bans. And stop being so picky against walk off stages. We'll find a way to stop King Dedede's chain grabbing.

What could possibly stop DDDs chaingrab?

~His Knightlyness Himself~

Do I have to say anything here?

-Johnknight1

Please people, know what you are talking about before debating.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=42749

There is the list of all Melee tourney banned stages. It took me 30 seconds to find this.

 

[Firestorm88]

Would people stop using crappy reasons like DeDeDe's chaingrab to ban stages? It's been about a month since Japanese release. We need to NOT ban thing prematurely, wait for counters to develop, then be glad that we didn't prematurely bad stages. This is competitive Brawl, not scrub Brawl. If there is no counter, then we can act appropriately.

Although I notice that a few people have already commented on this, I think it should be re-iterated.

 

[ComradeSAL]

Also, if a Lv3 CPU can escape Pikachu's a combo in less than 7seconds, so can you.

If an Apple II can compute 7362634232*342343234224 in 0.5 seconds, so can you.

Seriously, the amount of fallacious arguments in this thread border on absurd.

 

[Red_Maniac]

One of the only things on the list that I REALLY don't agree with is Luigi's Mansion being counterpickable.

How isn't it neutral?

 

[MeGaBiTe]

One of the only things on the list that I REALLY don't agree with is Luigi's Mansion being counterpickable.

How isn't it neutral?

After reading through a bit of this thread I've seen a lot of posts regarding areas in the stage reminiscent of the tunnel in Hyrule Temple.

Unlike most people here I actually agree with the majority of this list, although there are a few stages I'd leak to see at least able to be used as a counterpick. However, as many have pointed out, we do not yet know any advanced techniques or any other things of that sort in Brawl, and I don't think we can make a good estimate quite yet. I would like to see Shadow Moses Island moved to counterpick though. At least until we figure the whole walk-off issue out.

In any case, most of the banned stages look fun as hell to play, so I'm only really going to regard the ban list during official tourneys.

 

[Firestorm88]

And looking at the list again:
- Pictochat should definitely be counterpick at least
- Halberd can be debateable counterpick/neutral
- Norfair I'd lean towards counter-pick
- a LOT of the banned list should not be banned right off the bat

Banning stages that aren't something ridiculous like Mario Bros and 75m before even one large tournament seems premature.

 

[goodkid]

Wow. There are too many banned stages. We haven't even tested them yet. Oh, and we should look at this game as Brawl and not Melee. Melee stages that were banned, really should be questioned again, because why were they banned in the first place? Onett looks playable and so do the rest of the Melee stages. Also add the reason to all the banned stages, because most of them look playable.

 

[marthownsxd]

I thought the Back Room made up these lists. I guess I'm mistaken.

 

[Florida]

Great Sea: Counter-pick legal

The ship is often undergoing some stage hazards, the top concern being the bombs. Besides that, there's the crashing into the rock and the tornado/hurricane. Also, at some points of the stage, miniature ships will come in from the side(s) of the stage, making the walls/boundaries of K.O.s rather unfair when fights are taken place on it. Plus, we have the water, but that's a topic that's rather iffy at the moment. Still, it's a pretty good stage, and should be up for being a counter-pick.

Norfair: Banned

I'm aware that Brinstar was a counter-pick legal stage in Melee, but Norfair is just too much for that. Unlike Brinstar, the lava is arbitrary, and can be pretty hard to avoid. Lava rising from below isn't a big deal, but from the sides, and behind? Yeah, you've got trouble. Let's say you manage to get inside of the hatch before the lava comes...but so does your partner. You escape trouble just to get yourself in an even more damage-dealing situation. I feel really strongly about this one; banned.

Battleship Halberd: Neutral

The only real problem with this stage is the hangar at the beginning, which opens up a cheap/easy kill for a character who can slide-chain-grab (Dedede, etc.). Though seeing that the hangar is left rather shortly-- and once left you never return back to it-- there's not all that much of a problem.

Then there's the hazards when you board the ship. Unlike most hazards, these will give you a notice/warning of when the "surprise" is coming. The laser locks onto a player, and delays about a second before firing. The bombs move slowly and stupid while in air, and you can see them from the launch to the explosion. Just dodge the ball, guys.

Castle Seige: Neutral

Walk-off areas in stages aren't as bad as they were in Melee. The closest thing to the waveshine that we have at the moment is Dedede's chain-grab, but even that can be avoided easily. The second transition of this stage shouldn't be much to worry about. Even so, guess what? It transitions to another less-annoying area in a matter of seconds. Hiding behind statues can be used as a strategy, I suppose. That could also put it up for the possibility of being a counter-pick legal stage, but this one should best left be neutral.

No other objections. What are your thoughts on this, guys?

 

[Heroic]

My humble opinion:

neutral stage:
- yoshi's island

banned stages
- every other stage in the game

lol
more seriously, I think we should consider using stage builder to build good stages. I mean, if stage hazards warrant or walk off edges warrant a ba, why not try the stage builder to build a bunch of stages with diversified, inteesting layout?

plus we can choose the music to put in

well, that's just my feel on the sbject. The thing that bugs me about brawl stages in gneral are the ******** ledges in most of the stages, even final destination. It is not much of an issue if you are playing robot or jigglypuff, but it is much more of a problem with captain falcon or wolf, for example.

The other thing is about tether recoveries. some stages are pretty playable, but hav untetherable edges, wich makes a very neat stage like frigate orpheon a counterpick instead of a neutral stage.

 

[The Great Leon]

One of the only things on the list that I REALLY don't agree with is Luigi's Mansion being counterpickable.

How isn't it neutral?

Luigi's Mansion seems kind of dumb to play on. I love the stage, but it leads to a lot of running away and waiting as one person will have a huge terrain advantage over the other most of the time. Being inside the house delays KO's and if someone's upstairs they're boned. The game isn't about spamming Up B / Up Airs. (Think player 1 > player 2 on Melee Battlefield when the match starts... but that's the whole level.)

 

[Meteor!]

Great Sea: Counter-pick legal

The ship is often undergoing some stage hazards, the top concern being the bombs. Besides that, there's the crashing into the rock and the tornado/hurricane. Also, at some points of the stage, miniature ships will come in from the side(s) of the stage, making the walls/boundaries of K.O.s rather unfair when fights are taken place on it. Plus, we have the water, but that's a topic that's rather iffy at the moment. Still, it's a pretty good stage, and should be up for being a counter-pick.

Norfair: Banned

I'm aware that Brinstar was a counter-pick legal stage in Melee, but Norfair is just too much for that. Unlike Brinstar, the lava is arbitrary, and can be pretty hard to avoid. Lava rising from below isn't a big deal, but from the sides, and behind? Yeah, you've got trouble. Let's say you manage to get inside of the hatch before the lava comes...but so does your partner. You escape trouble just to get yourself in an even more damage-dealing situation. I feel really strongly about this one; banned.

Battleship Halberd: Neutral

The only real problem with this stage is the hangar at the beginning, which opens up a cheap/easy kill for a character who can slide-chain-grab (Dedede, etc.). Though seeing that the hangar is left rather shortly-- and once left you never return back to it-- there's not all that much of a problem.

Then there's the hazards when you board the ship. Unlike most hazards, these will give you a notice/warning of when the "surprise" is coming. The laser locks onto a player, and delays about a second before firing. The bombs move slowly and stupid while in air, and you can see them from the launch to the explosion. Just dodge the ball, guys.

Castle Seige: Neutral

Walk-off areas in stages aren't as bad as they were in Melee. The closest thing to the waveshine that we have at the moment is Dedede's chain-grab, but even that can be avoided easily. The second transition of this stage shouldn't be much to worry about. Even so, guess what? It transitions to another less-annoying area in a matter of seconds. Hiding behind statues can be used as a strategy, I suppose. That could also put it up for the possibility of being a counter-pick legal stage, but this one should best left be neutral.

No other objections. What are your thoughts on this, guys?

In my opinion all four of those should be counterpick. From what I've experienced, Norfair is a very good counterpick stage, you're overrating the hazards. They're all VERY easy to avoid, especially since you can shield and dodge them. Battleship Halberd isn't REALLY disrupting, but in my opinion it's just disrupting enough to not be neutral. Castle Siege has the funky transitions that sometimes drop characters off and the walk off edge, it's predictable, but once again it's just disruptive enough to not be neutral.

 

[Thinkaman]

While we are still throwing out opinions...

I'm pretty resolute that Luigi's Mansion ought to end up Neutral. The key here is that while a player can camp the inside, from that position they are helpless to stop their opponent from attacking the pillars and destroying their little hideout, eliminating the significance of the camping. It has no large advantage for any character. Only if broken tactics involving standing behind pillars are discovered should this stage be anything but neutral.

Great Sea seems obvious as a Counter-Pick.

Nor fair, while somewhat questionable, should be treated as a Counter-Pick until something bad about it arises.

Battleship could go either way. I'm leaning towards Counter-Pick personally, but would not raise objection to Neutral.

Castle Siege on the other hand falls under Neutral category in my eyes. People not being used to the transition yet is not a good enough reason to make an otherwise balanced stage Counter-Pick. For the statues, same thing as Luigi's Mansion...

 

[T0MMY]

You people are too quick to lay down any plan before you ever discuss what constitutes neutral/counterpick/banned stages.
----------------------------------------------------------
Here you go:

Neutral: are just that, neutral. They don't have explosions, they don't have big fish eating you, they don't have weird gravitational effects or dancing ******* flinging poo at you. Think: Battlefield and Final Destination.

Counterpick: These are as close to neutral as you can get without being neutral. There are explosions, there are stage changes, there are the occasional dancing ******* flinging their feces at you. The idea behind it is the player has practiced enough of this level to give him an advantage against his opponent. When the stage hazards can be abused is when it is...

BANNED!: These stages are perfect to abuse and make for a terrible match for those players smart enough to take advantage of. This will always include:

• Walls (trapping a player against a wall for 30 seconds is no fun to watch)
• Walk-offs (shining/chain-throwing/etc until they're dead is an obvious abuse)
• Fall-throughs (falling through a stage is almost a guaranteed loss of stock and unfair advantage, johnning about it is understandable).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everyone wants a clean fight, in a competitive tournament scene this limits the players to just the neutral stages and a few counterpicks to choose from. It's not your friend's living room, this is money people are competing for, it's about the SKILL of the players competing.

Now that you have something to work with, you'll find this a lot easier to figure out.
Just so you know, we competitive players already have our determined list of stages, so I don't see what the point of this would be.

 

[Meteor!]

What list would that be?

 

[verditude]

I would like to see this list as well. What has been decided?

 

[Justin Wiles]

I've never really liked the whole "SBR decides all" mentality of the board... certainly, yes, the most experienced of players and organizers are hanging out there, but could you be a bit more diplomatic in dealing with the masses?

Besides, as someone pointed out, it is still very very early to be determining these things... this whole wall obsession is robbing us of alot of stages, I certainly hope it doesn't stay like that. I've always been of the opinion that if you get yourself into those situations, you only have yourself to blame... after all, we never did ban wobbling.

 

[Thinkaman]

We have the Back Room because, to put it bluntly, the masses are morons.

If we made tourney rules to the whim of the public, we would end up with a disgusting pile of uncoordinated rules that ban things for no reason. OMG, it's a youtube video of a stationary Snake getting chained by Falco's lasers?!? BAN FALCO! OMG, a video where the Frigate's rotation killed a guy? BAN FRIGATE! OMG, a pikachu headbutting someone against a wall? Obviously an unescapable infinite, BAN ALL STAGES WITH WALLS!

It's just a mindless witchunt among a crowd whom mostly aren't competitive players anyway.

 

[Meteor!]

^
That. Still, even the back room hasn't had enough time to create a positive stage list. It's still very debatable.

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

Basically, let's just do Melee returning stages for now. Ban all Melee banned stages EXCEPT Corneria, and we'll cover that. Put every other stage back in their old category.

Pokémon Stadium is still neutral. Heck, it's probably more neutral. Onett (it's the same as Melee, but smaller, for less camping; it was legal in Melee, people), Rainbow Ride, (even more neutral) Yoshi's Island (a little better; but it still sucks; it was Melee tournament legal, so stop whinning, and saying we shoud ban walk offs, when percentage-wise walk-offs are legal about as much as non walk-off stages.), Kongo Jungle (definitely improved), and Green Greens (a bit better) are all still counter-pick class stages. Big Blue (a lot better; but it still sucks) and Hyrule Castle (if this stage was cut in 3 or 4, it'd be perfect; too big still ) still look like tournament-banned ones.

Corneria is a BIG QUESTION MARK! It was tournament banned if I remember correctly, but it's smaller, more balanced, and it's harder to combo off the wall. I think it looks a lot more balanced. I think it's probably going to actually be tournament legal as a counter-pick stage. But, that's just mere speculation.

Also, Brinstar could be neutral (very, very, very unlikely), so it's probably still a counter-pick, since it isn't glitchy anymore (though it's smaller).

All in all, just chill. We still know nothing about Brawl, lol! No need to get tense. But ya, Hyrule: Castle and Big Blue are the only definte tournament stage bans. And stop being so picky against walk off stages. We'll find a way to stop King Dedede's chain grabbing.

~His Knightlyness Himself~

-Johnknight1

I hope your other 3000 posts aren't as inaccurate as this one (regarding the listed stages legality in Melee.)

I'm interested in seeing what the banned stage (according to this list) that the SBR may decide as neutral is.

And good post by t0mmy.

 

[Justin Wiles]

We have the Back Room because, to put it bluntly, the masses are morons.

I know, I'm glad we have the back room, I just meant... we could be nicer when we talk about these things, including members from the back room when speaking with "the masses". That's all.

 

[sesshomaru]

from what ive seen (alot cuz i hate waiting for games.) the list on post 1 looks quite good, listen to me here, for the general poster of whats to be accepted. most generic tourneys should follow the set guidelines as that will lead to the highest turnout. you disagree? set up your own tourney with your own rules. i remember a melee tourney with items and i remember the opinion formed by most people after it finished. "it was fun but i just dont like the randomness" yes direct quote cause my memories like a steel trap lol. seriously though this debates about the guideline and that should be set up in a way where you will play with the fewest amounts of stage hazards.

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

You people are too quick to lay down any plan before you ever discuss what constitutes neutral/counterpick/banned stages.
----------------------------------------------------------
Here you go:

Neutral: are just that, neutral. They don't have explosions, they don't have big fish eating you, they don't have weird gravitational effects or dancing ******* flinging poo at you. Think: Battlefield and Final Destination.

Counterpick: These are as close to neutral as you can get without being neutral. There are explosions, there are stage changes, there are the occasional dancing ******* flinging their feces at you. The idea behind it is the player has practiced enough of this level to give him an advantage against his opponent. When the stage hazards can be abused is when it is...

BANNED!: These stages are perfect to abuse and make for a terrible match for those players smart enough to take advantage of. This will always include:

• Walls (trapping a player against a wall for 30 seconds is no fun to watch)
• Walk-offs (shining/chain-throwing/etc until they're dead is an obvious abuse)
• Fall-throughs (falling through a stage is almost a guaranteed loss of stock and unfair advantage, johnning about it is understandable).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everyone wants a clean fight, in a competitive tournament scene this limits the players to just the neutral stages and a few counterpicks to choose from. It's not your friend's living room, this is money people are competing for, it's about the SKILL of the players competing.

Now that you have something to work with, you'll find this a lot easier to figure out.
Just so you know, we competitive players already have our determined list of stages, so I don't see what the point of this would be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri3edER1HHY


This video shows that Delfino plaza has both wall abuse as well as walk-off abuse, and yet it is NOT banned.

 

[Collective of Bears]

I think the Halebird should be Neutral. The obstables are super-easy to dodge.

 

[PR3Y11]

even though great sea is one of my favourite stages to play on i think it should be on the ban list for tournament, the canons are too distracting so takes away FULL concentration from the match and if you're at high% and get thrown into the catapult and well... just die that's just what i think

edit: and i agree with above post =]

 

[joeysmash]

picto chat should be a counter pick.

 

[Thinkaman]

Without waveshining, walls and walk-offs are no longer bannable. Thanks to DeDeDe and a few others they make a stage more towards counter-pick than Neutral, but they are far from ban-worthy. We have had no problems with either.

I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss stage legality; that would be the most hypocritical thing I could say after the amount of posts I've recently hammered out on the topic. However, the back room really has no reason to share their current thoughts at a given moment, since they are perfectly capable of making a decision on their own. Sharing their unfinished plans at random times would contribute nothing, and have no result other than making people argue and everyone try to give their own two (or twenty) cents on the matter. If they want our input, and I'm sure they do, they can read topics like this one.

Though if they are reading... My petty suggestion is to get a rough draft of legal/neutral stages out before the first big round of tourneys hits the week following March 9th; the sooner we can start working towards some conformity and standardization in the community, the better. It will hinder the meta-game's development and tournament integrity if we have a potluck of local rules for too long. One of the things that accelerated Melee's development was everyone getting on the same page with MLG's ruleset.