~!~ UNOFFICIAL Competitive Tournament Rules - Stage Ban List *UPDATED* ~!~

[Thinkaman]

Castle Siege and Delfino Plaza are just too interfering to be neutral IMO, but they're good counterpicks.

I don't see how "interfering" makes a stage CP instead of Neutral. If it's something oddball to the extreme like Pokefloats that plays with just a completely different style of fighting, then yes. However, these stages are at least as tame as Pokemon Stadium from Melee. I was originally worried about the speed at which Delfino Plaza took off being bad for slower characters, but I don't think it's a problem after taking another look at it.

Luigi's Mansion and Frigate should be, though.

Glad to see some people see this. Frigate is getting a lot of hate from people not used to the stage having freak deaths due to not understanding the rotation and being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's a fair stage everyone will get used to, even if it will be a top choice for personal banning by tether recoveries.

And Luigi's Mansion I hear no one defending... I wasn't too hot on it but random people walking by kept demanding to see both Luigi's Mansion and Green hill Zone. After playing it a lot, it became a favorite. People bring up nonsense about "camping", without listening to the obvious facts: If someone camps in the mansion, you can easily just destroy the mansion! That's the entire point of the stage; it's easy to do, the camper can do nothing to stop you (besides stop camping), and it even stays gone for a pretty long time. Besides, as a CP stage, who would big it? It gives no one an advantage! Definitely Neutral.

Shadow Moses is extremely banned because of easy wall infinites.

I thought wall infinites except for like DeDeDe's chaingrab were disproven ~2000 years ago by Jesus riding a dinosaur?

Norfair is a very good counterpick, though.

I can see it going either way. I'm not sure how many people would miss it, though it is easy to imagine some characters liking it as a CP.

Distant planet is kinda iffy but could be counterpick.

See above: There will be johns galore on this stage with the one hit kill. People just can't understand for some reason that yes, there is a space on the stage that makes you lose a stock just like an edge. One most stages you have to go outside the boundary to die, and this stage just happens to have a zone inside that boundary that kills you as well. It isn't random, and it isn't unfair: The point of the game is to not get knocked out of bounds, and the point of this stage is also not to get knocked into that zone. The same applies to the fish on Summit and the klap-trap on Jungle Japes. There's a spot on the stage that makes you die, just like the sides and bottom of every other stage.

I say this in every stage discussion since people never seem to be taking it into account: The fact that players have a personal ban lets us allow a little more freedom in both Neutral and Counter-Pick stages.

For example, if there was no personal ban I would argue my guts out against anyone who tried to get Yoshi's Island (Pipes) legal, but with a personal ban I don't have a problem with it: other people can play on the stupid stage, and I will just ban it every time.

I'm also willing to bet that Yoshi's Story and Dreamland would not have been Neutral in Melee if people were not allowed to ban them. A few people would also have been very insistent that Pokefloats be banned for everyone if not for being able to ban it themselves.

And for the record, given the larger number of legal stages in Brawl whatever is decided, I still advocate THREE or at least TWO personal bans. (Only one Neutral.)

Two might be extremely easy come to think of it: ban one neutral and one counter-pick. Easy. In fact, it could be so players don't have to name their counter-pick ban until after the first match, so no one can forget.

 

[orintemple]

With all this arguing I don't get why the people making the decisions don't just make FD the ONLY allowed stage for tourneys. Its not like you can't go play whatever stages you want outside of the tourney and it would make the competition as fair as can be stage wise.

Yes this would be very boring and I wouldn't really want that, but it seems logical.

 

[Thinkaman]

Restricting a tourney to just FD or even just Neutral stages is frankly overly simplistic. It's as pointless and silly as say, forcing everyone to play the same character in the name of "fairness".

Let's say I play extremely well on Brinstar compared to other stages. (Wait, I'm jiggs, that's true...) Should I not have the ability in a tourney to showcase that skill? What if my opponent is really good on Corneria? Most everyone agree that players should get a shot at showcasing their skill on stages that favor them and stages that favor their opponent, so the answer is yes. Should someone get the chance to showcase their skills on Hyrule Temple? Most everyone agrees that the stage is tactically invalid, so the answer is no.

As much as the Projectile Spammers' Union and the United League of Chaingrabbers would like to play on only FD all day, I think the vast majority of competitive players prefers a REASONABLE variety of stages. We are just bickering as to what that "reasonable" is...

 

[Meteor!]

Well, I've played Castle Siege and Delfino Plaza a lot, and it's not all that uncommon for the stage to unpredictably cause a turn of events, usually because of the stage transition combined with something else(water does it a lot). They're great counterpicks, but they just affect the game too much to be neutral.

The main issue on Distant Planet isn't the hazards, it's the tiny stage combined with those hazards.

Lol @ FD only. It's not even the most balanced stage.

 

[Thinkaman]

That brings up an interesting (if arbitrary) question: what IS the most balanced stage?

With fixed edges, is it the new Battlefield? I think it's either that or Smashville tbqh.

 

[theONEjanitor]

lol @ all these people complaining.
also lol @ the fact that half the people complaining probably won't even run or attend competitive tournaments

 

[Kuroneko]

Yeah, I said I agreed with most of the bans, and was fine with the rest, but what I got from this was "pro tourney, from the pro tourney, no pro tourney, haha play m2k Dedede and come back here."

 

[Kio Iranez]

When we actually do get this from the Back Room, the only things that might change are counterpick stages, and even then, that's iffy.

 

[Dacvak]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the neutrals are going to stay exactly the same.

The counterpicks might change, though. I doubt we'll ban Castle Siege and Delfino just because of the walkoffs, but Castle Siege is definitely possible since the stage transformation animation is a pure walkoff... However, if you are facing a DDD, you can just stall, so no big deal.

The only other ones I think might become counterpick are Norfair, even though it's a dumb stage and no one in a tourney would really want to pick it. I think PKS1 will become counterpick now since it seems smaller and the windmill blocks everything now. Also, I think Sonic's stage might end up banned, since no one really seems to like it all that much. That's a stupid reason for something to get banned, but it technically has walkoffs (even though DDD can't really get a good chain grab in) and a random element with the Checkpoint that pops up. Who knows, though.

~Dac

 

[Florida]

Do me a favor. Play M2K's DDD (or any good DDD) on Eldin or Mario Circuit then tell me they should be counterpick.

Yeah, 0%-death gayed. Straight walkoffs are banned.

~Dac

But you just said in a previous post that if you get caught in the chaingrab, then you deserve to get gimped.

 

[Blackshadow]

But you just said in a previous post that if you get caught in the chaingrab, then you deserve to get gimped.

Opinions change.

 

[Dacvak]

No no, I said if you get caught in his chaingrab on a flat stage with platforms above you that you do. DDD has a fantastic grab, and M2K made d@mn sure to use it any chance he got on Final D. It's really tough to avoid when you're fighting on just one simply flat structure.

What I was talking about was for the walkoff stages that aren't banned, and here are the reasons:
Sonic's Stage: While if you get caught in DDD's grab way on the edge, you can be CG'd the whole way to death, it's much, much harder to do and fairly unpractical (considering it'd be very easy to see coming when facing a side-camping DDD). DDD can't chaingrab through the middle or if he grabs you in the middle, so good sh*t there.

Castle Siege: On the part of the stage with the walkoffs, there are many platforms above you that you could fight on. It's not ideal for anyone, but if you're facing a DDD, you could easily avoid it by staying on said platforms. The only other problem is that Castle Siege becomes a complete flat walkoff any time it transforms, however that only lasts like 4 seconds, so you could easily stall in the air until the transformation is done.

Delfino: The walkoffs in Delfino are not completely flat and some have platforms that you could camp on. The stage transformations are faster than Castle Siege so it's not a bad idea to just stall if facing a DDD. It's very easy to avoid.

Here are the reasons why we won't have Mario Circuit or Eldin.
Eldin: This is way too obvious.
Mario Circuit: Since the cars fly above you quite often, you'll be forced to fight down below in the straight walkoff zone. This means that DDD will easily be able to get to you while you're trying to avoid both him and cars.

But maybe the US version of Brawl will fix DDD's chaingrab. We can only hope so.

~Dac

 

[Gaudion]

But maybe the US version of Brawl will fix DDD's chaingrab. We can only hope so.

If not, is it possible to patch it? I know they can patch fighting games on the 360 but to be perfectly honest I haven't spent enough time with my Wii to figure out if it has that capability. I **** near haven't touched the thing since I beat Super Metroid, the only reason I even bought it in the first place is this coming Saturday.

 

[Gaudion]

Actually, another option that I haven't seen anyone suggest yet is to just ban DeDeDe as a character. That'll be unpopular with people who main DeDeDe, obviously, but it seems like as he's responsible for almost all of the bans outside of stage hazards, it would open up quite a few boards as neutral or counterpicks by default.

It's not an option I think we should jump on prematurely. Right now people are still discovering the game. They're playing around with all of the characters and having fun with it. But once the novelty wears off and the pros start playing purely to win, if DeDeDe's chain-grab is really that good then we're going to see tournaments made up 90% of DeDeDe the same way the last game was made up 90% of Marths, Foxes, and Shieks. If and when it does come to that, I would much rather see DeDeDe go away and some more stages come into play for the rest of the cast who seem fairly balanced. Why should everyone have to suffer because of one character's broken mechanic?

 

[Thinkaman]

Banning a character is the ultimate, most extreme thing we could possily ever do. We could never do that unless further developments led to a character like DeDeDe being Akuma good. It would have to be something ridiculous, something that makes wobbling look like a joke.

Even then, the community would try as hard as possible to make tourney rules accommodate the broken charatacer without banning him. Things would be implemented such as "If a player chooses the broken character at any point, the opponent now has the option of picking the stage and reselecting their character."

Don't get me wrong, no one needs to be banned yet and it is extremely unlikely that anyone will need to be banned ever.

EDIT: And as ridiculous as the idea is, we would sooner attempt to ban the chainthrow or whatever the broken tactic is than the character. Chainthrowing is slow, obvious, and intentional enough that the idea of banning it isn't totally impractical. People tried this with wobbling for a bit before we saw that it wasn't totally game breaking.

And once again, don't get me wrong: nobody needs to be banning anything.

 

[Gaudion]

Uh... not to be a grammar Nazi or anything, but you don't really need to keep saying, "Don't get me wrong," when you're not providing any counter-points to your own argument. Doesn't really make much sense when you say, "Nothing needs to be banned. Don't get me wrong, nothing needs to get banned."

In any case, I'm just throwing it out there as an option. Like I said, right now people are still experimenting and enjoying the game and all its different characters. The meta-game isn't even out of its infant stages yet. But Melee, once it matured, was Marth, Fox, and Shiek. You'd get the odd Samus or other high-tier character here or there, but anyone who wasn't playing Marth, Fox, or Shiek in tourneys was more or less playing those characters out of loyalty, enjoyment, or the desire to be different. Those who played to win played the top three.

The Brawl roster's got, what... over 35 characters, right? I'd really hate to see just one completely dominating tourneys because of a single broken mechanic. I'm not saying that's necessarily going to happen; it's far too early to tell. But I'd also hate to see a lot of potentially good stages made unplayable by that same mechanic, and right now DeDeDe alone seems to be influincing stage selection almost as much as hazards, which is ridiculous. Not only that, even on the stages that make it in it seems you have to plan your entire strategy on just staying in the places where DeDeDe is least likely to be able to chain-grab you, which is even more ridiculous. I may be in the minority, but I'd rather lose a single character with a broken mechanic than half-a-dozen stages.

I'm not saying it's a great option, but it is an option.

 

[Thinkaman]

I was explaining what possible steps might be taken to deal with a broken character before actually banning them; I was clarifying that no such broken character exists yet, and the discussion is hypothetical.

 

[Dacvak]

Don't get me wrong, banning a character simply won't happen. I mean, don't get me wrong, Eldin and Mario Circuit just aren't worth it. And don't get me wrong, I really think those stages might have ended up banned anyway, they're really just not fun stages and not quite suitable for tournament play.

So, once again, don't get me wrong, we'll ban a few weak stages before we take an entire character out of the mix.

~Dac

PS: Don't get me wrong, but I doubt the Wii will patch any version of Smash, however I've heard that the US version has slight differences in gameplay, which means that playing between a US and Japanese copy would mean one of them needs to be patched. Don't get me wrong, but don't get me wrong.

(Lol, that was fun)

 

[Kio Iranez]

Don't get him wrong, folks.

 

[Dacvak]

And don't get me wrong, don't get Kio wrong for stating not to get me wrong.

This joke has gone on for way too long, but don't get me wrong, it has gone on way too long.

~Dac

 

[Thinkaman]

Now that I managed to start what will hopefully be the world's smallest meme after saying something twice, we can get back to complaining about stages.

How about Port Town, did we ever establish a firm reason for it to be banned? All I ever heard was "omg i've only played the stage twice and don't know the car pattern and wtf the cars killed me ban it"...

 

[Kio Iranez]

Cars can kill at very low percents. I don't think they could even kill on Mute City. It happens much more than the crocodile on Jungle Japes, which I think is comparable in this case.

 

[Dacvak]

Port Town = Banned because it's too easy to stall out a match. It's the same reason why Hyrule Temple was and still is banned.

~Dac

 

[Thinkaman]

How is it easy to stall? Granted I haven't played on the stage much, but when I did no one seemed not have any way to stall unless I'm missing something. I mean, doesn't infinite stalling need a loop? Where's the loop on Port Town?

Oh, and Mute City doesn't kill? I was eliminated in brackets at both Carbondale and the first Collinsville tourney by getting killed by a car on Mute City; two of my last four tourneys. I'm all Brinstar now...

 

[Dacvak]

It's easier to stall than on Hyrule Temple. You don't HAVE to stall, but dude, that stage really blows anyway. No one will miss it.

~Dac

 

[Thinkaman]

Forgive my persistence, especially since I really don't care about the stage, but I just don't see how stalling is easy on it. If you were talking about something like Summit I could see, but Port Town?

 

[Mikezor]

So what is the verdict on Pokemon Stadium 1?

Also, why isn't Delphino Plaza neutral? Exact points please.

Port Town isn't that easy to stall on in my opinion, but the cars and the other obstacles are what is making it banned.

 

[Kio Iranez]

So what is the verdict on Pokemon Stadium 1?

Also, why isn't Delphino Plaza neutral?

Pokemon Stadium 1 is still neutral. Delfino Plaza is a counterpick.

 

[Gaudion]

PS: Don't get me wrong, but I doubt the Wii will patch any version of Smash, however I've heard that the US version has slight differences in gameplay, which means that playing between a US and Japanese copy would mean one of them needs to be patched.

So the Wii does have the potential to be patched, then? If so, that would be great, and I would hope Nintendo would be willing to put forth the effort. If not, there's always the hope that they'll just fix it for the N.A. release, in which case this whole argument will have been for naught and I'll be all the happier for it.

However, assuming the chain-grab is still intact, why not just include the stages with a non-DeDeDe clause if the walk-off is the only reason for banning?

 

[Dacvak]

HOLY SH*T I'M F*CKING ********. WOW.

So, yeah, I was DEFINITELY getting Port Town and New Pork City confused! LOL!

Wow, yeah, ****. Anyway, PORT TOWN is banned since the cars kill at ultra low percentages.

Seriously, I feel insanely stupid. =P

~Dac

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Why is Frigata Orpheon not banned? THe stage rotation speed is so fast, you could die if you are in it's way. Not to mention there is no definite number of sirens before it rotates. An example: Zjiin (snake) Vs Kels (pika)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD8g_Xt34-Q
Watch the end.

Before I continue to debate on walk-off edges, I'll wait until I have the game because there may be a simple way to escape Dedede's chain grab.

 

[PR3Y11]

^ agreed!.....
even though people say that you can avoid the cars by knowing the patterns.... you can still get thrown into and hit into the cars, sometimes i get hit during recovery and i dont know a way around it >=[

still a fun stage to play on though =]

 

[Proteus]

The flips aren't that common and it's even rarer that they actually affect gameplay. In my personal experience (albiet a small sample) I haven't seen anyone die because of the stage flip. I seriously doubt it will be banned.

By the way, it was possible to fall through the tree on Pokemon Stadium in melee (I've had and seen it happen) for an instant death, but it was so uncommon that there was no reason to ban the stage, or even move it to a counterpick. I think it'll be similar with Frigate.

 

[Dacvak]

In the Japanese version, there is absolutely no way to escape the chain grab if you're a heavy character.

Frigate Orpheon really doesn't deserve any kind of a ban, in fact a lot of people want it as a neutral. The rotation can f*ck you up, but only if you ignore it. The sirens go off at least 2-5 seconds before the flip, and that's plenty of time to get just above the stage.

~Dac

 

[Thinkaman]

Lol @ Port Town/Pork City confusion. Yeah, that clears things up considerably; New Pork city was obviously out from the beginning.

As for Port Town being banned due to cars, I still don't understand it. They aren't random, and are dodge-able enough that getting hit by them is your fault. If your opponent knocks you into a car when you are at a medium or high percent, good for them, they deserve to have you lose a stock. (Just like they deserve to have you lose a stock if they hit you off the sides or top or spike you.) This applies to the fish on Summit (which might be banned for other reasons though) and the Bulborb on Distant Planet.

It's not random, you both know it kills, so no johns when you die. Being able to hit an opponent into a particular zone that kills them is the entire point of the game. No one is saying these stages should be Neutral since they obviously favor certain characters, but there is still no reason to ban them.

As for Frigate, it's kind of the same thing except to the point of not applying, sort of like Pokemon Stadium transformations or the Cloud on Yoshi's Story: Something very, very predictable that can hypothetically screw someone over in a rare case where it's their fault anyway. Everyone in the middle or off-screen is perfectly safe, and if your opponent is able to knock you the exact distance to the side at the exact time to stage flips so you die, then they deserve to take that stock from you.

Not random = your fault, no johns, end of story.

 

[PR3Y11]

In the Japanese version, there is absolutely no way to escape the chain grab if you're a heavy character.

Frigate Orpheon really doesn't deserve any kind of a ban, in fact a lot of people want it as a neutral. The rotation can f*ck you up, but only if you ignore it. The sirens go off at least 2-5 seconds before the flip, and that's plenty of time to get just above the stage.

~Dac

Dac, are you saying that in the US version we'll be able to di or techroll out of it? i think that would be a little more fair, my friends get really annoyed when i use D3 =P

 

[Thinkaman]

It seems that the US version is identical is terms of gameplay. I've played both, though not as DeDeDe, and couldn't find a single difference; no one else has either, and the fact that the two versions can play online with one another seems to cement it.

 

[Dacvak]

Just because something isn't completely random doesn't mean it's not completely gay. You can still get grabbed and thrown into the cars with relative ease, and the cars can appear at such a time that makes it impossible for you to recover without getting hit.

Plus, it's just really not that good of a stage. It might be predictable, but that doesn't mean it can't seriously mess you up. When you're in a tournament setting, you don't want to have to fight both your opponent AND the stage. Even if we did make it counterpick, no one would ever pick it unless they had the full intent of being gay and screwing over the other player by using the cars somehow. It's just not a good stage for tournaments. Take a look at Mute City... Even pro players still got hit by cars. That sh*t's unavoidable in certain situations. If the cars in Mute City killed at 50%, that stage would be completely banned. It's just an awful way to turn a match completely around.

~Dac

 

[PR3Y11]

yea that makes sense.... just out of curiosity.... how did you get your hands on the US so soon ? i have to wait til this sunday... (nagging game store work?)

 

[Dacvak]

Dac, are you saying that in the US version we'll be able to di or techroll out of it? i think that would be a little more fair, my friends get really annoyed when i use D3 =P

This may be a double post, but I don't care.

Some people have reported that the US version is slightly different in terms of gameplay. Personally, I doubt it, because I don't think either version will ever get patched. But in the event that you can DI or techroll or something to get out of the chain grab, then we might have to reconsider the ban list.

~Dac